Juvenile Execution

[kmack]

Look at what I quoted in my first reply. The poster made the assertion that America executes more children then every other country in the world, combined. All I did was confirm that assertion by throwing in my opinion.

So what if it is off topic? Report me. As far as I am concerned abortion is putting a child to death, and innocent one at that. Based on the title of the thread I would say that it is on topic, but only because of my perception. Sure my comment is out of context, but it hammers home that the US puts more children to death than any other country.

119 other countries allow abortion, soo your point is completely incorrect (i would think china has just a few, JUST A FEW, more abortions than we do :dozey: ). It is a LIE intended to reinforce your OPINION. If you truley believe more abortions are carried out here than anywhere else, you are wrong.

This is not the place to discuss abortion as it is too large a topic to interject into the middle of a loosely (at best) correlated topic. Abortion is legal right now, if there is some change in that THEN you can post it here as it could be tied in with the contitutional discussion occuring here.

I'm politely asking you to remove abortion from this discussion in the context you are using it. Please start an abortion thread, it is a topic that deserves it own thread and discussion. It is way too big an issue to start up in here.

 

[Bodacious]

so you'll not use protection at all? never? what if you dont want any more children? will you get a vesectomy?

No, yes.

"Of the three million pregnancies to married women each year (in the US), three in 10 are unintended......and four in 10 unintended pregnancies to married women each year end in abortion: 37% of married women


37% is much higher than the 0% you claim


on average it's 17% (married and unmarried)


"....resulting in 345,000 abortions to married women each year. All in all, 17% of abortions in the United States occur to married women."


source

Even still, a vast majority of abortions are due to irresponsiblity, my point remains.

 

[Bodacious]

119 other countries allow abortion, soo your point is completely incorrect (i would think china has just a few, JUST A FEW, more abortions than we do :dozey: ). It is a LIE intended to reinforce your OPINION. If you truley believe more abortions are carried out here than anywhere else, you are wrong.

Of those other countries how many of those abortions are forced abortions? Those don't count.

This is not the place to discuss abortion as it is too large a topic to interject into the middle of a loosely (at best) correlated topic. Abortion is legal right now, if there is some change in that THEN you can post it here as it could be tied in with the contitutional discussion occuring here.

I'm politely asking you to remove abortion from this discussion in the context you are using it. Please start an abortion thread, it is a topic that deserves it own thread and discussion. It is way too big an issue to start up in here.

Ok, but you should quit commenting on it here as well.

 

[el Chi]

But I thought the topic was children being put to death, no? Is that not what happens when and irresponsible slut has the product of that irrespinsibility forcibly removed and thrown in the trashcan? (Rape victims aren't responsible sluts, don't make that link).

An obtuse connection seeing as the discussion was on the death penalty. So don't bring abortion into it, because it is simply not on-topic. If you want to shout from your soapbox about abortion start another discussion, that's all I was saying. My point was valid, you were simply adding some contrived little rant in.


And for the record, I whole-heartedly disagree with you. But we'll save that for this new thread of yours eh?

 

[kmack]

Of those other countries how many of those abortions are forced abortions? Those don't count.




Ok, but you should quit commenting on it here as well.

its done.

 

[kmack]

An obtuse connection seeing as the discussion was on the death penalty. So don't bring abortion into it, because it is simply not on-topic. If you want to shout from your soapbox about abortion start another discussion, that's all I was saying. My point was valid, you were simply adding some contrived little rant in.


And for the record, I whole-heartedly disagree with you. But we'll save that for this new thread of yours eh?

hehe thanks, least other people see what he is doing

 

[Absinthe]

Wow, good job, Bodacious. You've made a loose connection to abortion and have consequently derailed the topic. Congratulations. If you didn't see this happening, then you have horrendous lack of foresight.

You knew what he meant by the use of the word "children", but you went ahead and turned it into an abortion issue. When you're told to stay on topic, you go on about expressing your opinions and all that "why me?" victim crap. Want to talk about abortion? Then go make a topic about it and compare it to genocide, or whatever floats your boat. Just don't derail a different topic under the facade of relevance.

 

[kmack]

Wow, good job, Bodacious. You've made a loose connection to abortion and have consequently derailed the topic. Congratulations. If you didn't see this happening, then you have horrendous lack of foresight.

You knew what he meant by the use of the word "children", but you went ahead and turned it into an abortion issue. When you're told to stay on topic, you go on about expressing your opinions and all that "why me?" victim crap. Want to talk about abortion? Then go make a topic about it and compare it to genocide, or whatever floats your boat. Just don't derail a different topic under the facade of relevance.

thank you as well, good to see acknowledgement of what he is doing.

 

[CptStern]

No, yes.

so if your wife is pregnant and she has the invetereo that confirms that your child will be severly disabled and his/her chances of survival to adulthood is next to nil ...you'll keep it right? you'll purposefully inflict a life of constant pain just so that you can satisfy your sense of "moral responsibility"? Think fast now ..you'll only have about 2 weeks to decide what to do after the test

you've never used contraception? even before you were married? or did you just use the "hope and pray" method?

Even still, a vast majority of abortions are due to irresponsiblity, my point remains.

no you're point does not hold up because you changed it mid thread:

"Is that not what happens when and irresponsible slut has the product of that irrespinsibility forcibly removed and thrown in the trashcan? "

I dont see where you said "the majority" actually it reads like "all women who have abortions are sluts" to me

 

[kmack]

so if your wife is pregnant and she has the invetereo that confirms that your child will be severly disabled and his/her chances of survival to adulthood is next to nil ...you'll keep it right? you'll purposefully inflict a life of constant pain just so that you can satisfy your sense of "moral responsibility"? Think fast now ..you'll only have about 2 weeks to decide what to do after the test

you've never used contraception? even before you were married? or did you just use the "hope and pray" method?







no you're point does not hold up because you changed it mid thread:

"Is that not what happens when and irresponsible slut has the product of that irrespinsibility forcibly removed and thrown in the trashcan? "

I dont see where you said "the majority" actually it reads like "all women who have abortions are sluts" to me

good points all around, but can we stay on topic

 

[CptStern]

ya sorry ..it's just that particular subject irks me to no end ..everybody has an opinion, few actually know anything about it ...no one can truely say what they would do until they're actually confronted with it

 

[Eg.]

ya sorry ..it's just that particular subject irks me to no end ..everybody has an opinion, few actually know anything about it ...no one can truely say what they would do until they're actually confronted with it

but then ull have to assume all the disabled/messed-up babies would want to die, when they have the ability to make such a desicion.

 

[CptStern]

ya sorry ..it's just that particular subject irks me to no end ..everybody has an opinion, few actually know anything about it ...no one can truely say what they would do until they're actually confronted with it


btw I freakin hate my ISP ..all day I've been losing connection ...not good when I'm a web designer yet I can connect tot he company servers!!!!! freakin annoying!

 

[CptStern]

but then ull have to assume all the disabled/messed-up babies would want to die, when they have the ability to make such a desicion.

stay out of this, you havent a clue ..I do, I've worked as a teacher for mentally handicapped students for 7 years, and I can assure you that if they're that bad off they cant make ANY conscious choices

 

[GhostFox]

The situation is more complicated then you make it seem Stern. For instance, those tests have a relatively low degree of accuracy. When my brother and his wife were having a child, there were some problems during the pregnancy and after amniocentisis (sp?) and observing other factors, it was revealed that the child would be born severly mentally hadicapped and somewhat physically. They were councilled on the option of aborting the pregnancy.


I'm glad they didn't, because I enjoy playing baseball in the park with my pefectly normal and healthy nephew.

 

[CptStern]

The situation is more complicated then you make it seem Stern. For instance, those tests have a relatively low degree of accuracy. When my brother and his wife were having a child, there were some problems during the pregnancy and after amniocentisis (sp?) and observing other factors, it was revealed that the child would be born severly mentally hadicapped and somewhat physically. They were councilled on the option of aborting the pregnancy.


I'm glad they didn't, because I enjoy playing baseball in the park with my pefectly normal and healthy nephew.

I'm well aware of that ..but you're not given exact numbers but rather probabilities

my wife had her ultra sound and we were told that we had a 1 in 200 chance of the child being born with Downs syndrome ...we were also told that if she had an amniocentesis they could be absolutely sure ...but there was also a 1 in 200 chance that the procedure would casue a miscarriage ...we had exactly 2 weeks to decide ...longest 2 weeks of my life

 

[Bodacious]

so if your wife is pregnant and she has the invetereo that confirms that your child will be severly disabled and his/her chances of survival to adulthood is next to nil ...you'll keep it right? you'll purposefully inflict a life of constant pain just so that you can satisfy your sense of "moral responsibility"? Think fast now ..you'll only have about 2 weeks to decide what to do after the test

you've never used contraception? even before you were married? or did you just use the "hope and pray" method?

Yes. No, I haven't had to use contaception, I was and remain responsible.

no you're point does not hold up because you changed it mid thread:

"Is that not what happens when and irresponsible slut has the product of that irrespinsibility forcibly removed and thrown in the trashcan? "

I dont see where you said "the majority" actually it reads like "all women who have abortions are sluts" to me

Do I change or clarify? I don't see where I said, "all" either. Any assumption that that is what I meant is just that, an assumption.

 

[CptStern]

Yes. No, I haven't had to use contaception, I was and remain responsible.

so you were celibate before being married? you've never ever used contraception? I'd call that pretty irresponsible

Do I change or clarify? I don't see where I said, "all" either. Any assumption that that is what I meant is just that, an assumption.

well pretty much everyone who posted after you made the statement drew the same conclusions that I did ...btw using your logic, my wife was a slut for contemplating abortion (to be honest, I was more for it than she was ..so I guess I'm a slut too :E )

 

[CptStern]

Yes. No, I haven't had to use contaception, I was and remain responsible.

so you were celibate before being married? you've never ever used contraception? I'd call that pretty irresponsible

Do I change or clarify? I don't see where I said, "all" either. Any assumption that that is what I meant is just that, an assumption.

well pretty much everyone who posted after you made the statement drew the same conclusions that I did ...btw using your logic, my wife was a slut for contemplating abortion (to be honest, I was more for it than she was ..so I guess I'm a slut too :E )

 

[GhostFox]

my wife had her ultra sound and we were told that we had a 1 in 200 chance of the child being born with Downs syndrome ...we were also told that if she had an amniocentesis they could be absolutely sure ...but there was also a 1 in 200 chance that the procedure would casue a miscarriage ...we had exactly 2 weeks to decide ...longest 2 weeks of my life

I understand the conflict. I have spent a lot of time working with handicapped kids (I volunteer for the special olympics) and none of them are so bad off they are in a near vegitative state. But anything to do with this issue will not be cut and dry. These are decisions full of conflictions and delimmas. You can't ask someone to just make a choice easily.

 

[CptStern]

one of my former students looked fine, acted normal ...you'd never now that he was terminally ill ..cant remember exactly what he had (I was an art instructor, diagnosis wasnt my forte) but it was a delibitating disease that ultimately led to a vegitative state followed by death ...90% of those with the disease die by the time they're in their early 20's ..he was 17 at the time (he's probably gone now). His brother also had the same disease but was far more advanced then he was...he watched him slowly deteriate and eventually die ...on more than one occasion he expressed his want to die so that he didnt have to go like his brother ...nothing is cut and dry, nothing is 100% ...but one thing is certain, when the time comes to make a difficult decision, the last thing you want is interference from the government


k enough about abortion and death, it's too depressing

 

[kmack]

so you were celibate before being married? you've never ever used contraception? I'd call that pretty irresponsible

Some people don't have sex before marriage, dont ask me why.

 

[Bodacious]

so you were celibate before being married? you've never ever used contraception? I'd call that pretty irresponsible

Yes. I have used contraception. I agree, no contraception is irresponsible.

well pretty much everyone who posted after you made the statement drew the same conclusions that I did ...btw using your logic, my wife was a slut for contemplating abortion (to be honest, I was more for it than she was ..so I guess I'm a slut too :E )

Conclude anything you want. I know a lot of guys who are sluts.

 

[CptStern]

Some people don't have sex before marriage, dont ask me why.

"I'd call that pretty irresponsible" :naughty:

 

[CptStern]

Conclude anything you want. I know a lot of guys who are sluts.

cuz they wanted an abortion?

 

[Bodacious]

cuz they wanted an abortion?

No, because they are permiscuous(sp), they sleep around, don't care about the concequences, just want to get off, stuff like that. Irresonsiblity.

 

[burner69]

No, because they are permiscuous(sp), they sleep around, don't care about the concequences, just want to get off, stuff like that. Irresonsiblity.

Just out of interest, so I can debate with you here, do you believe in contraception or not?

 

[Bodacious]

Just out of interest, so I can debate with you here, do you believe in contraception or not?

Yes, but abstinence is better.

 

[burner69]

Yes, but abstinence is better.

Fair play, although I disagree with the idea of abstinence. We are biological machines who's primary drive is to reproduce. I find the idea of NOT having sex purely for religious or other moral reasons strange... not to knock you there, it's just something I find intriguing, although I accept people who do it.

With contraception I agree it's the best way to go about things, but at the same time of all the billions of people having sex in the world there will be accidents, foolishness, and mistakes going on; and out of those sometimes children will have the potential of popping into the world where they will cause a lot of damage to the parents, and have a generally not nice life.

For example I have a, now 16 year old friend, who got very drunk when she was 14 and had sex with a guy. Now, before I go on this girl is lovelly, she's not a slut, she's not promiscuous (sp?) but she had sex all the same. The condom split and she got preggers. She was 14, still in school man. Being as she was she couldn't bare to end her child's life, so she kept it. She had to drop out of school because her mother, who lived alone with her, had to work, and so now she has no qualifications, and is stuck inside with her child. The father has had little involvment, except for some money once a month.

Now, she really is stuck. She can't afford a babysitter. And so can't get a job. She has to live off benefits, live very minimally, and basically at age 15 she's stuck inside as a mother for a good many years.
Her son, who she loves to bits, will be born into a fatherless family, and no doubt learn that because of his accidentle birth his mother's life is now stuck in a rut.

Now, she wanted to have the child, and fair play to her. But I can imagine people in that situation NOT wanting the child, and NOT wanting to mess up their life prospects. Do you think they should have the choice to abort? Or should they be forced to carry the burden and mess up their lives?

Also, there are too many people on this earth, and we need to accept that. We can't keep reproducing at the rate we are, abortions are an unfortunate necessity in these times, IMO.

 

[Absinthe]

Abstinence rarely does much good.

http://www.unknownnews.net/040312no.html

 

[Calanen]

Abstinence just makes a really weird frustrated aggro person, in many cases. Just look at prisons, when men are deprived of sex they lose the plot, have sex with men, when most of them would never have considered it beforehand. Indeed, it is arguable, that the sexual weirdness going on with the Catholic Church, is in part caused by the absitnence and worse, anti-marriage policy of priests. Not that I am saying what they did is justified at all - just that as sexual beings, you are asking for trouble if you try and make people abstain from having sex. Its not realistic. 2 million years of evolution will not be overridden by a religious class.

In addition, I think that lack of contraception, and especially condoms, is very irresponsible, outside of a marriage. But in a marriage, I think its fine. I come from 9 generations of Australians, all Catholics, none of whom (presumably judging by family size) ever used contraception of any kind. We were also taught at any early age, dont have sex before marriage, but if you do, and get a girl pregnant, or if you yourself are pregnant, do not have an abortion. The family will do whatever it can to assist you, but this family, does not kill its family members. And if you do kill your child, you will have to live with that for the rest of your life.

I am a Catholic by background. But an agnostic. I dont believe in the Catholic Church's ban on condoms and other contraceptive devices. It just means that a whole lot more people get AIDS. From what I know of Jesus, I doubt he would think that was a good idea. I also do not believe in abortions. I would not ban it, but I would encourage women to have the child, and give them as much support as they can to do so, in any way the state can. 100,000 potential Australians are killed in the womb every year. That is a national tragedy.

 

[burner69]

Abstinence just makes a really weird frustrated aggro person, in many cases. Just look at prisons, when men are deprived of sex they lose the plot, have sex with men, when most of them would never have considered it beforehand. Indeed, it is arguable, that the sexual weirdness going on with the Catholic Church, is in part caused by the absitnence and worse, anti-marriage policy of priests. Not that I am saying what they did is justified at all - just that as sexual beings, you are asking for trouble if you try and make people abstain from having sex. Its not realistic. 2 million years of evolution will not be overridden by a religious class.

In addition, I think that lack of contraception, and especially condoms, is very irresponsible, outside of a marriage. But in a marriage, I think its fine. I come from 9 generations of Australians, all Catholics, none of whom (presumably judging by family size) ever used contraception of any kind. We were also taught at any early age, dont have sex before marriage, but if you do, and get a girl pregnant, or if you yourself are pregnant, do not have an abortion. The family will do whatever it can to assist you, but this family, does not kill its family members. And if you do kill your child, you will have to live with that for the rest of your life.

I am a Catholic by background. But an agnostic. I dont believe in the Catholic Church's ban on condoms and other contraceptive devices. It just means that a whole lot more people get AIDS. From what I know of Jesus, I doubt he would think that was a good idea. I also do not believe in abortions. I would not ban it, but I would encourage women to have the child, and give them as much support as they can to do so, in any way the state can. 100,000 potential Australians are killed in the womb every year. That is a national tragedy.

You know what. I think that's the first post you're written that I've ever agreed with.

Fair play.

 

[KoreBolteR]

You know what. I think that's the first post you're written that I've ever agreed with.

Fair play.

agreed.

on another topic.. burner , youve been up all night according to your posts..

are you nocturnal ? cos i used to be before i had a course to do ... :E

 

[kmack]

Ya, you can say you are abstinant but when its time to get down, beliefs go out the window :naughty:. Its pure biology, there is an overwhelming adolescent sex drive programmed into our beings for thousands and thousands of years.

But thats right, evolution doesn't exist .

 

[Bodacious]

Fair play, although I disagree with the idea of abstinence. We are biological machines who's primary drive is to reproduce. I find the idea of NOT having sex purely for religious or other moral reasons strange... not to knock you there, it's just something I find intriguing, although I accept people who do it.

This guy didn't believe in abstinence, and look what happen to him. Abstinence is more than just pregnancy dterence.

With contraception I agree it's the best way to go about things, but at the same time of all the billions of people having sex in the world there will be accidents, foolishness, and mistakes going on; and out of those sometimes children will have the potential of popping into the world where they will cause a lot of damage to the parents, and have a generally not nice life.

I hope no one who thinks that thinks they aren't extremely selfish. If the parents want to have a nice life maybe they should go play putt putt golf instead of hide the salami.

For example I have a, now 16 year old friend, who got very drunk when she was 14 and had sex with a guy. Now, before I go on this girl is lovelly, she's not a slut, she's not promiscuous (sp?) but she had sex all the same. The condom split and she got preggers. She was 14, still in school man. Being as she was she couldn't bare to end her child's life, so she kept it. She had to drop out of school because her mother, who lived alone with her, had to work, and so now she has no qualifications, and is stuck inside with her child. The father has had little involvment, except for some money once a month.

Now, she really is stuck. She can't afford a babysitter. And so can't get a job. She has to live off benefits, live very minimally, and basically at age 15 she's stuck inside as a mother for a good many years.
Her son, who she loves to bits, will be born into a fatherless family, and no doubt learn that because of his accidentle birth his mother's life is now stuck in a rut.

Now, she wanted to have the child, and fair play to her. But I can imagine people in that situation NOT wanting the child, and NOT wanting to mess up their life prospects. Do you think they should have the choice to abort? Or should they be forced to carry the burden and mess up their lives?

Sucks for your friend. Sounds to me like she shouldn't have gotten drunk under age. She also had the option of putting the baby up for adoption. What was the cause of this pregnancy? Her irresponsibility, nothing more.

Also, there are too many people on this earth, and we need to accept that. We can't keep reproducing at the rate we are, abortions are an unfortunate necessity in these times, IMO.

To me, your opinion justifies murder. Just my opinion, though.

 

[Bodacious]

Ya, you can say you are abstinant but when its time to get down, beliefs go out the window :naughty:. Its pure biology, there is an overwhelming adolescent sex drive programmed into our beings for thousands and thousands of years.

But thats right, evolution doesn't exist .

You can't quote me saying evolution doesnt' exist anywhere.

 

[Calanen]

Also, there are too many people on this earth, and we need to accept that. We can't keep reproducing at the rate we are, abortions are an unfortunate necessity in these times, IMO.

Well in the case of my country, thats garbage. 100,000 Australians are year that are aborted, could easily be absorbed into this country which currently has negative real growth.

 

[CptStern]

why is it that almost every conservative seems to fit into an umbrella of cookie cutter characteristics? (or at least, embody a majority of the traits):

pro-war in iraq
anti-abortion
anti-same sex marriage
pro-gun
creationist
de-secularization of govt


I guess the same could be said about those that would be deemed "liberal" but I think to a far less degree ..I can think of a half-dozen liberals that were for the war in iraq ...but i cant think of one conservative who was against the war

 

[burner69]

This guy didn't believe in abstinence, and look what happen to him. Abstinence is more than just pregnancy dterence.

That's an extremely rare case, and you know it.
The idea of STDs are however an important issue, and yes make abstinence seem good.
Fact is though, people still wanna hop on the good foot and do the bad thing, we can't stop it. It's like saying we can only poo on Sundays, just wouldn't happen.

I hope no one who thinks that thinks they aren't extremely selfish. If the parents want to have a nice life maybe they should go play putt putt golf instead of hide the salami.

Well in all fairness, being a blob of organic matter with little or no thought processes, I find it hard for an undeveloped fetus to comprehend, and therefore care about never being born. It's harsh, I know, but true.

Sucks for your friend. Sounds to me like she shouldn't have gotten drunk under age. She also had the option of putting the baby up for adoption. What was the cause of this pregnancy? Her irresponsibility, nothing more.

Don't do drugs.
No, she kept the child because she loved him, loved it before he was born. Her irresponsibility was the cause, but seeing as its a natural process, having sex, and seeing as it happens all the time, should everyone in her shoes be forced to keep the child, despite it arsing up their lives?

To me, your opinion justifies murder. Just my opinion, though.

Opinion accepted. In my opinion, then, murder in this instance is justified, because if nobody wants a child, if its existence will drag its parents down, if its life is unlikely to be peachy, and seeing as we have a lot of people on this world, we simply can't afford to remove the option of abortion. No doubt if I got someone preggers my opinions might change, but as it stands I think for the greater good, and for the good of the parents, and maybe sometimes the child, ceasing a child's existence before it can 'think' as we understand the term (I'm an advocate of early abortions, if they must be done) is necessary.


EDIT: Kore; yeh, got a messed up sleeping pattern, trying to stay up until a reasonable hour tonight so i sort myself out...
....but I'm goin clubbing tomoro so its all gonna be shot to sh*t anyway... hmph

 

[kmack]

You can't quote me saying evolution doesnt' exist anywhere.

i never quoted you, I made a general statement about evolution, but brought up evolution because christians who believe in abstiance and ignore the biological side of the human libido do so because they disbelieve evolution. I was trying to quell an argument before it started.