Karma and fate o.o

[Dan]

I was agreeing with you

 

[spookymooky]

I was agreeing with you

Oh, cool then. :flustered:

I thought you were saying that my argument was moot because I said that electrons fire randomly in the brain.

 

[Murray_H]

lol i just kissed a girl lol

 

[CptStern]

I don't believe in choice:

while I agree in principle, I also believe that it's a little broad in scope.

That said, I agree that we cant predetermine our paths because as we cannot see the path laid out before us we cant avoid the obstacles that would take us from our path yet we can make conscious choices that will keep us on that path ...but I'm not so sure I'm disagreeing with you here

 

[CrazyHarij]

lol i just kissed a girl lol

This place is so much more interesting at night.

My opinion on free will: I think you're all correct but i seriously can't imagining walking around thinking that. Part of what makes life enjoyable is the ability to lose yourself in the moment and just have fun.

 

[spookymooky]

I also believe that it's a little broad in scope.

It is. It's not completely what I meant, but a lot easier to explain than "I don't belive." <---Period.

 

[Murray_H]

This place is so much more interesting at night.

lol girl lol

I'm tired, i had a big bowl of cheerios and it made me tired

 

[CptStern]

It is. It's not completely what I meant, but a lot easier to explain than "I don't belive." <---Period.

huh? that was easier to explain? heheh I would have left it at "I dont believe" .....circular logic is making my head hurt

 

[panda_rage]

I believe in jesus not karma and fate.

 

[CptStern]

fate is entwined with jesus (christianity), you cant believe in one without the other

 

[Que-Ever]

I say... neither, but I didn't vote because that might change.

also, anybody else ever just wanna give ikerous a great big hug? I know he's a guy and all (he's probably a little buff too), but I think the avatar and cute smilies are misleading...

 

[OCybrManO]

fate is entwined with jesus (christianity), you cant believe in one without the other

Yes, because if someone is all-knowing he must also know the future down to the last detail, including the thoughts of every person, as that falls under the umbrella of "everything"... and if the future can be predicted with perfect certainty (which must be true of an all-powerful being) there can be only one path. That one path, then, is what people call fate. It is the unavoidable course of the universe.

Now, that's not to say that I necessarily believe in fate... and especially not for that reason. If I did come to the conclusion of a singular path of events it would be through the physical laws that govern all matter and energy... but, so far, scientists are having quite a bit of trouble predicting and/or describing the actions of matter/energy on a quantum level. If quantum physics is truly unpredictable (rather than being too tiny to measure, too complex to calculate with current technology, or not matching our current knowledge) it leaves the potential for our choices to actually change the future... but if everything has a concrete answer we're just reading a book. I'm not qualified to make that call.

Still, even in the worst-case scenario, it makes no difference as to how you go about living your life. You don't know what your path entails. You have to discover it for yourself. From your perspective, discovering a bad path would seem exactly like you were making bad choices (even though the choice is only an illusion). So, even though you aren't really in control, you still have to work hard and do good things while on the good path... and, from your perspective, it will always seem like your actions are determining the outcome. Your brain would actually be going through the process of making a choice in a similar fashion to a computer executing an algorithm... but the algorithm would result in one possible solution. You'll still feel like you're making a choice because you are going through the process of determining what to do next. You'll never know the difference. It's a bit of an abstract concept because it's not like we can go back in time and try to do something differently.

EDIT: Oh... you want my answer? My answer is... I don't care. It doesn't make a difference. I just voted "neither" because it was the most popular. Yes, I'm a trend whore.

 

[Steven]

Neither done there, all in one sentance.

 

[Jintor]

What goes around, comes around.

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

I only believe in fate because I do not believe in coincidence. Everything is as it should be be it pre-ordained or not.

What happens to you may not be written, but it is your fate.

As for karma, that is a machine of the human. It works because people make it work.

 

[JNightshade]

Stern, as much as I like you, I have to call you out on that. I'm not religious, but I have friends who are, and you SURE AS HELL can believe in jesus without believing in fate, or vice-versa. Religion and faith are what you make of them. Please, don't try to force every religious person into a neat little set of rules.

 

[Absinthe]

I do not believe in any kind of supernatural fate, wether it be the creation of some grand being, the universe's balance of chi, or some other such crap. However, I do not rule out the idea of determinism governed by natural, physical law.

Same goes for karma. I believe that the closest people have to karma is the justice system or some other human construct based on revenge, retribution, and/or justice. In other words, it's an entirely human-run concept with no guarantees.

 

[Steven]

^ That's what I would of said if I posted more then one sentance.
If you punch a guy it's not impossible that he'll just stand there ot maybe even say thank you. You may not feel bad about it either.

 

[Raziaar]

fate is entwined with jesus (christianity), you cant believe in one without the other

That's bogus.

I don't believe in fate, or karma. Humans have the free will to choose their own destiny. Just because god knows whatever you will ever do, doesn't mean its fated to happen.

Only if you think of it that way... which is kind of silly. We have the free will to choose whatever path we take.

 

[Absinthe]

The existence of an omniscient god requires an inevitable outcome, or "fate" if you wish to call it that. At least if you subscribe to any kind of coherent logic.

Many religious people who believe in such a being like to say their beliefs are compatible with free will. The fact is that an all-knowing entity knows what you will do and what choices you will make. When that is the case, your ability to independently make your decisions from any plan or timeline is diminished to the point of non-existence.

Of course, nobody will ever know any better while they're alive.

 

[Raziaar]

The existence of an omniscient god requires an inevitable outcome, or "fate" if you wish to call it that. At least if you subscribe to any kind of coherent logic.

To him he knows the eventual outcome, to you, you do not. You can change anything you want in your life to an extent, as many times as you want... unless its being controlled by another individual.

When people say "I was fated to do this" I roll my eyes depending on the situation, because obviously I don't subscribe to that belief... that person chose the options in their life to reach that point.

If you want to talk on a purely religious level... being fated to do everything you do is rediculous in its notion, because people would be destined to heaven or hell(going by christian beliefs) before they were ever even born, when in fact its their decision whether or not they choose to believe in god.

Anyways... those who don't believe in god really aren't in a position to lecture others on fate. For that matter, neither are people who do believe in god. I believe in god, but I don't believe in fate. Anybody telling me I should otherwise, or anybody saying i'm going against my faith because I don't... is assinine.

 

[Absinthe]

To him he knows the eventual outcome, to you, you do not. You can change anything you want in your life to an extent, as many times as you want... unless its being controlled by another individual.

If he knows the eventual outcome, then he knows what I am destined to do. If his knowledge spans an infinite timeline, then he knows what will take place after, during, and before the fact. To say that I have choices and then assert the existence of a being that knows with a certainty of what my future actions will be is to pose two contradicting statements. Free will either doesn't exist or isn't utilized, either of which pretty much have the same implications.
That is if we're going to argue from a basis of human, rational understanding. Anything outside of that isn't worthy of discussion or belief.

If you want to talk on a purely religious level... being fated to do everything you do is rediculous in its notion, because people would be destined to heaven or hell(going by christian beliefs) before they were ever even born, when in fact its their decision whether or not they choose to believe in god.

Actually, this is a very large moral dilemma present at least in Christianity, as an omniscient god does know if you're destined to Hell or Heaven.

 

[Nat Turner]

Christians usually like to ignore logical fallacies in their dogma (like the impossibility of free will with an omniscient God), or find clever pseudo-logic to get past them. It's kinda funny, but gets annoying after a while.

 

[OCybrManO]

So, let me get this straight. He knew before he created us exactly what everyone was going to do (leaving only one possible path)... and he could have easily created us in such a way that we would have done something different (but he didn't). Yet, somehow, that's not predestination? After that, there are two other somewhat sadistic issues I have with that theory. The first involves the punishment (or, in less hellfire-and-brimstone versions, withholding of a reward) of his creations for not meeting arbitrary standards of his own creation. It's not the fault of the sub-standard people that he created them in their current form... it's the fault (or, if said creator is infallible, the "intent") of the creator. That part sounds like an ego booster, IMO. The second issue involves the legal liability of the creator (with full knowledge of the creation's intent) for any crimes commited by the creation. Every murder, rape, genocide, war, theft, manslaughter, or other such crime commited by the creation throughout history trails its responsibility back to the creator who, being all-knowing and all-powerful, had both the foresight to see what terrible acts would be done by the creation and and the ability to prevent said crimes. If a man tells you, "I'm going to go shoot my wife tomorrow... but I don't have a gun," and you lend him your gun... you take some (albeit, in this example, less than an all-knowing and all-powerful being) of the responsibility for the murder. The standard reasoning just doesn't strike me as fitting behavior for a so-called "loving" god.

 

[Nat Turner]

So, let me get this straight. He knew before he created us exactly what everyone was going to do (leaving only one possible path)... and he could have easily created us in such a way that we would have done something different (but he didn't). Yet, somehow, that's not predestination?

I think here's how it goes (from a Christian perspective):

A) Parts of the Bible imply that we have free will
B) Therefore we have free will
C) All logic is limited because we are mere humans, and cannot hope to understand the ways of God, or how he manages to allow us free will while still being omniscient

So basically there's no point in arguing it, because if you start out with a position that the word of God is always Right, all human logic is pointless anyways (unless it helps you to better understand God).

 

[Raziaar]

Think whatever you want. I don't care. When I talk about fate from a religious standpoint, I speak of the 'great plan' some religious people often speak of. When a young child does of tragic causes... sometimes people say "Its in gods great plan". I find that silly... I don't believe in the great plan of this. I believe that humans have the choice of free will, including the people who commited that heinous crime that caused that young person to die. His mind wasn't forced to do that, it was his choice... and he drove himself to that point in his life.

Would that be 'fate' in his life? Yes, in a way. If he was born, and later in life when he was intelligently able to comprehend it, and you told him of this thing that would most assuredly happen. He could just as easily change it. If you've ever heard the phrase, "Every Action has a reaction" Or whatever it is... its similiar to this. Every time you do something, it has the possibility of changing the outcome of your life. If you're fated to die in a horrible car accident, and you simply don't go out that day... It changes, and you may never die in a car accident again.

I don't see why you guys have to get so stupidly philosophical about it, just to try to attack a religion. It doesn't 'prove' anything, nor does it change anything in my faith.

Destiny(fate) itself means inevitable. No matter WHAT you do to change it, it'll still happen. This simply isn't true. Depending on the circumstances, things can be changed. Fate only goes so far as to the current point in time, where you're headed to that path but even the slightest move away from it can change it. Its constantly updating, constantly evolving. Yes, what's going to happen to you is going to happen to you, but it isn't any one specific thing, it can be an infinite number of things depending on how you lead your life.

Constantly changing, constantly involving... No constants.

 

[Nat Turner]

Raziaar:

If God knows the absolute end result of someone's life, then the person does not have free will, because he will inevitably go down a certain path that God knows. He may have the illusion of free will, but he does not really have it.

 

[Raziaar]

Raziaar:

If God knows the absolute end result of anyone's life, then they do not have free will, because they will inevitably go down that path. They may have the illusion of free will, but they do not have it.

No... he knows where the result of your free will, will take you at the end of your life.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Just because god knows what you're going to do with your free will, doesn't mean that the free will doesn't exist, or that he's somehow guiding you.

Can't you wrap your mind around the notion that although god knows your eventual path in life, that path was ultimately chosen by you with your own free will?

Its easy as pie.

 

[Nat Turner]

No... he knows where the result of your free will, will take you at the end of your life.

Wrong. If God is omniscient, he knows every step of the way.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Just because god knows what you're going to do with your free will, doesn't mean that the free will doesn't exist, or that he's somehow guiding you.

He's not guiding you, but he knows what will happen. You cannot change this course of events, because God knows the path you will take. You can think you've changed it, but you really haven't.

Can't you wrap your mind around the notion that although god knows your eventual path in life, that path was ultimately chosen by you with your own free will?

Its easy as pie.

No, it was not chosen by free will. Just plain will based on your natural disposition and environment, definitely, but not free will. There is no free will in a deterministic universe.

 

[Jintor]

And if there is no god?

 

[Raziaar]

Wrong. If God is omniscient, he knows every step of the way.



He's not guiding you, but he knows what will happen. You cannot change this course of events, because God knows the path you will take. You can think you've changed it, but you really haven't.



No, it was not chosen by free will. Just plain will based on your natural disposition and environment, definitely, but not free will. There is no free will in a deterministic universe.

He knows every step of the way. He doesn't guide it. Therefore its still free will.

If you speak in terms of 'god's knowledge' no ****ing shit its destiny.

If you speak in terms of man's capability... he has free will, and can change the course of his destiny by the choices he makes. You can choose to eat that muffin and die, or you can choose not to. It has little bearing in what god knew was going to happen... the fact is... YOU chose what you were going to do. If I told you that you were destined to drown in the ocean, but instead you pissed off a ravenous cow and got devoured... I would be wrong.


I don't know why people choose to view the matter in the eyes of god, rather than the eyes of man.

If you put it in more simple terms, and layed out the entire course of fated events in a persons life when they were a child. They could every single one of them.



Bah. You still haven't given any proof to disprove free will.

 

[Nat Turner]

And if there is no god?

Then it's a frivolous argument in the first place. *shrug*

Hopefully there is a god, as long as it isn't the Christian one. He's pretty evil and tyrannical, but that's a different story.

 

[Nat Turner]

He knows every step of the way. He doesn't guide it. Therefore its still free will.

If you speak in terms of 'god's knowledge' no ****ing shit its destiny.

Then it's not really free will at the highest level. You just admitted it.

If you speak in terms of man's capability... he has free will, and can change the course of his destiny by the choices he makes. You can choose to eat that muffin and die, or you can choose not to. It has little bearing in what god knew was going to happen... the fact is... YOU chose what you were going to do. If I told you that you were destined to drown in the ocean, but instead you pissed off a ravenous cow and got devoured... I would be wrong.

He can't really change the course of his destiny if God knows how it'll all turn out. He thinks he can, and by all appearances he does, but he can't.

I don't know why people choose to view the matter in the eyes of god, rather than the eyes of man.

Because you can't claim free will exists if at a higher level it actually doesn't. It's simply the wrong term to use.

Bah. You still haven't given any proof to disprove free will.

Yes I have, and you admitted it. If there's destiny at God's level, then that destiny suddenly doesn't just vanish. Man is still governed by it, whether he can tell or not.

 

[Jintor]

I think I've thought this through (I think...) and, if God exists, and he is omniscient, and you have to follow what he can see... then their is fate. If there is a pre-determined path, you are somehow compelled to follow, then their is fate.

But if you have multiple universes, then is there a fate for each universe?

I may go into the 'Trousers of Time' theory, if I'm compelled to.

 

[Nat Turner]

But if you have multiple universes, then is there a fate for each universe?

Yes, God is all-powerful, so his omniscience would apply to all universes. So there would be a determined fate for all happenings in each.

 

[Asknoone]

No for both.

 

[OCybrManO]

I don't know why people choose to view the matter in the eyes of god, rather than the eyes of man.

Why not think about the view from man's perspective? It would look exactly the same, to you, in both a deterministic and a free will system. You can't distinguish the difference between synapses firing or a soul guiding your actions... because all you experience of thought is the result/feedback, not the process. In computer terms, you're just seeing the user interface rather than the code that is doing the work behind the scenes. Trying to discern free will from our view is like trying to perform the duties of the line judge of a tennis match from behind a brick wall.

 

[Raziaar]

Then it's not really free will at the highest level. You just admitted it.



He can't really change the course of his destiny if God knows how it'll all turn out. He thinks he can, and by all appearances he does, but he can't.


Because you can't claim free will exists if at a higher level it actually doesn't. It's simply the wrong term to use.



Yes I have, and you admitted it. If there's destiny at God's level, then that destiny suddenly doesn't just vanish. Man is still governed by it, whether he can tell or not.

Alright... If it'll make you feel better... yes, there is a destined course at the end of ones life. I've already admitted this. But to me its not destiny, its merely the all powerful knowledge of what will happen by a being we could never begin to comprehend. It's as inherently flawed as the whole 'could god create a rock that even he could not lift'. The answer is... he never would. Just as you are essentially trying to prove a point that god is incapable of creating a world in which humans are granted a free will to rule the course of their lives, simply because he happens to know every single outcome that could possibly happen, under any given circumstance.

But that does not magically shield the individual from making a choice of his own free will. Lets break all the rules here for a moment. If I was sitting here ready to eat a sandwich I just made, and god came down here and told me, "Timothy, you are going to eat this sandwich." My mind isn't forced. Since he told me what was going to happen, I can change my mind and not eat the sandwhich. I'm not magically compelled to eat it. If god happened to break character like that, and leave the decision in my hands while telling me what the future was going to be at that point... its a clearcut free will situation. However. He doesn't... and things just happen as they happen. I wasn't destined to migrate towards these forums and post here. God wasn't creating the course of my life up to this point. I was creating it for myself, and it doesn't matter if god knew the outcome or not, because he hasn't influenced it.

He knows the final tallies of how everything will happen. He however, does not influence those things to happen. God's comprehension of how things are, cannot be compared to our comphrension. I'm sure if(and this is an if, since you are not religious) you asked god whether or not human beings really had the choice of free will or not, he could easily answer yes. Human beings have the power of free will, even though their free will is going to lead them to the eventual future destination they come to.

I still don't understand how you're equating "god knows whats going to happen" to a lack of free will. Its your free will that leads you to the destination that god knows is going to happen. Your hands weren't forced, your cards weren't played unwillingly. It's your actions now that ultimately have decided your fate in the future, not your fate in the future that has controlled your actions now. Do you not understand what I am saying?


Anything else after this is just going to be reiteration after reiteration, and simply that's just a waste of time. If you don't understand what i'm saying, or where i'm coming from. FIne, I don't really care, because i'm not trying to change your opinion. Just trying to get you to see mine, if its even in your comprehension range.

 

[Jintor]

According to the multiple universe/fates theory/story, once you've made the choice as to whether or not to eat the sandwich, then the universe will split into two realities; one where you've eaten the sandwich, and one where you haven't. So is it by your actions that you are following fate, or that you are choosing which fate to follow?

 

[ComradeBadger]

I believe in a very strange version of karma and fate:

Karma - If something thats a little bad happens to me, then I'm due something very good. Heh.

Fate - I'm due good things to happen to me, cos I just deserve them.