Left 4 Dead Intro

[V-Man339]

Holy shit.

 

[liPillON]

Characters don't die in the game, it's a movie style co-op game.
It doesn't have cinematics during the game at all.

i thought those clips (we now know there are 47mins of cinematics) were gonna play between each maps, not only at the beginning and/or at the end of the campaigns...

that would be a problem as if one player doesn't make it to a safehouse, he shouldn't be alive in the subsequent cutscene

 

[Sheepo]

i thought those clips (we now know there are 47mins of cinematics) were gonna play between each maps, not only at the beginning and/or at the end of the campaigns...

that would be a problem as if one player doesn't make it to a safehouse, he shouldn't be alive in the subsequent cutscene

We do? How?

 

[Qhartb]

How long does it take them Qhartb?

It was a "Valve time" comment. Obviously they don't have a large number of people focused on making this and the "Meet the ..." shorts, and even if they did it's marketing, so there's no reason to release them as fast as they can. I was trying to say that we've been getting couple-minute-long shorts a few times a year, and at that rate a feature film would take ridiculously long.

I understand, however, that if they were really doing a feature film, they wouldn't be working at that rate.

 

[MaDMaXX]

i thought those clips (we now know there are 47mins of cinematics) were gonna play between each maps, not only at the beginning and/or at the end of the campaigns...

that would be a problem as if one player doesn't make it to a safehouse, he shouldn't be alive in the subsequent cutscene

What?!

I've not heard of, or seen any cinematics at all.

 

[Kadayi]

Heh I always liked the DoD2 video. It was definitely done all in game, the trick is in using decent camera angles.

Anyhows, excellent video (in game or not). Looking forward to the rest. Valve are clearly looking to garner attention. I think the real battleground for them will be on the 360 fighting for attention against GoW2 and Halo 3 for multi-player market share rather than on the PC (which they've already conquered). Should be interesting to see how it pans out for them.

Also if they've breathed yet more life into the Source engine I'm happy for them. I've always felt that it's been criminally underused (probably as a result of the 'hack' issues) and deserves wider adoption. The only flaw to Source is the limitations of the mapping, which lags behind other contemporary engines in terms of size (maybe they've addressed that this time), as well as the lack of a realtime WYSIWYG level editor.

 

[MaDMaXX]

Yeah, they've always said that the source engine is constantly being updated and re-written so it's never the same engine people think it is.
It's nothing like the engine they released with HL2 all those years ago.

 

[Lobster]

The 44 minutes comes from the report by the UK ratings board, the BBFC I believe, where they seperately rated 44 minutes of "Linear Content" meaning cutscenes.

http://www.bbfc.co.uk/website/Classified.nsf/ClassifiedWorks/E0CFA168E7AFD193802574D6004191A8

Source ^

The first release of the Source engine didnt even let you use HDR lighting properly, and now I cant imagine a source game without it, then around the time of Lost Coast and Episode 1 they braught that in, along with higher particle and lighting budgets, then the Orange Box engine braught in a revamped particle system, a method for combining that system with advanced model animations (cinematic physics), a direct method for dynamic soft shadows, and a shit load of under the hood stuff, that just basicly lets you do more on screen. From what I have seen the L4D engine has expanded to using multiple dynamic light sources, a larger budget for normal mapping and onscreen entities, aswell as the fabled AI director.

Oh btw, has anyone ever noticed this before? I had never seen it, thirdperson carry angles ftw!

 

[MaDMaXX]

Interesting picture, never seen it before, looks great.

Don't forget the physics based animation that the L4D source engine update adds as well (realistic swaying pony tail and jiggling belly on the boomer)

 

[MaDMaXX]

Hmm, well we can certainly mark 5 mins of that "linear" footage to the intro. Looks like maybe an outro was submitted, but i'm not sure why, that would kind of cap the game. I guess it could include things like the escape parts at the end of each campaign as well.

 

[Lobster]

I was thinking, as each campaign is presented as a movie, they can do fun little trailers to connect them up, or "NEXT TIME ON..." style things, infact if they bring a new movie with each update they do, it could be a new take on Episodic.

 

[Gorgon]

10/10 stars, looking for my credit card.......... buying this game.

 

[MaDMaXX]

You won't regret it Gorgon, it's a blast to play.

 

[Au-heppa]

infact if they bring a new movie with each update they do, it could be a new take on Episodic.

Doupt that's going to happen. The movies were something four or five maps long, right? It takes a long time to make something that long, plus Valve might want to bring some kind of new angle into it with every movie. Frequent map updates were possible with TF2 since they were one map only. Most of the new maps in TF2 were also originally custom made, but I don't believe there will be too many quality custom maps made for L4D, atleast not in four map long packs.

I am sure there will be new movies for L4D but I doupt we will see them as often as we saw new maps and updates for TF2.

 

[MorganFreeman911]

Wow, that's incredible! i'm glad I preordered this game.

 

[Lobster]

I am sure there will be new movies for L4D but I doupt we will see them as often as we saw new maps and updates for TF2.

Oh obviously not in TF2 frequency, those were spaced by about 2-4 months, I was thinking more a 4-6 month spacing, with each one most likely carrying a new weapon or enemy or some such, if they added another game mode that used single maps, like say a standoff defense situation, it would probbally be more custom friendly, I mean there is alot they can do.

 

[MaDMaXX]

They're unlikely to carry new enemies, weapons, there is a possibility, but it's gonna be rare.

Maps generally, look for plenty of user made packs, they are comparatively easy to make as it's just geometry and the AI director does the rest.

 

[Sheepo]

They're unlikely to carry new enemies, weapons, there is a possibility, but it's gonna be rare.

They've already said they're planning to do that.

 

[undertone]

They're unlikely to carry new enemies, weapons, there is a possibility, but it's gonna be rare.

Maps generally, look for plenty of user made packs, they are comparatively easy to make as it's just geometry and the AI director does the rest.

You've made a slew of comments in this thread that are either false, or just conjecture but presented as fact. There is *A LOT* more that goes into making a map then geometry. I'm willing to bet a fair amount of cash that there will be some serious entity placement to be done for L4D maps. While the AI director will control pacing and such, it won't be able to place props, lights, textures, player spawns, level exits/entrances or any special effects the mapper wants to include. Not to mention each "movie" will have to contain 3-5 maps to be comparable in length to the official maps.

Essentially, you have no idea what your talking about, and I'm starting to wonder if you've even played the game as you've stated.

 

[Eejit]

Checked his sig yet undertone? He's from the NS team. NS2 is gonna be Steamworks afaik, so there's actually a pretty good chance he's had contact with Valve more than the average bear.

 

[Fiberawptic]

Checked his sig yet undertone? He's from the NS team. NS2 is gonna be Steamworks afaik, so there's actually a pretty good chance he's had contact with Valve more than the average bear.

Lol, so because he helped out a mod 8 years ago means he is constantly in touch with valve all the time and knows exactly everything about their decisions???

 

[Eejit]

NS2 != 8 years ago.

 

[hool10]

You've made a slew of comments in this thread that are either false, or just conjecture but presented as fact. There is *A LOT* more that goes into making a map then geometry. I'm willing to bet a fair amount of cash that there will be some serious entity placement to be done for L4D maps. While the AI director will control pacing and such, it won't be able to place props, lights, textures, player spawns, level exits/entrances or any special effects the mapper wants to include. Not to mention each "movie" will have to contain 3-5 maps to be comparable in length to the official maps.

Essentially, you have no idea what your talking about, and I'm starting to wonder if you've even played the game as you've stated.

He is right on what he says. If you have followed any Valve game, then you know how Valve operates. I noticed that L4D411 had a contest in which you get early access to the demo on the 4th. So I "assumed" the demo would come out on the 5-14 of November. I was right but that was an assumption because I know how Valve operates. Here is another wild observation for example. I know that Episode 3 will release at the end of 2009 and we might get a teaser for it if you buy L4D. What I also feel is that we will pre-load the demo files for L4D this Tuesday.

You know Valve if you have been watching them for X amount of years. These newcomers because of L4D bug me because they slam Valve and their new fellow Valve fans as well. In response to your Q, you have to make a map. If say you made a maze, you would make a level, etc and add safe houses along the way. You would also add player spawns and finales or mini-finales. Everything else, that is enemy spawns, is handled by the Director. Even the music. The Director does a shit load of work for the mapper.

Lol, so because he helped out a mod 8 years ago means he is constantly in touch with valve all the time and knows exactly everything about their decisions???

NS2 is still being made and is coming out unbelievably awsome. NS is also always in progress, though most of the work is with NS2. That 8 year old mod kicks ass too. He also is another guy who knows Valve because he has been following them for more than 3 years like me since 2001. :thumbs:

 

[Lobster]

I agree with everything you say about valve there Hool.

On the subject of the maps, the mapper shouldnt be down played, I mean, Multiplayer maps dont have any AI or scripting in that respect, but it still takes alot of work to make a good one, spamming geometry is easy enough, but its all about flowing movements, and managing choke points and logical routes, there are alot of rules involved in creating maps generally, but even more so in source maps, There is alot going on in level design that goes under appreciated alot of the time.

 

[MaDMaXX]

Thanks guys, you saved me a lot of typing

As for the maps, as has more or less already been said, the mapper "merely" needs to do geometry, spawn, end and safe points. The rest *is* done by the AI director.
Also please note i'm no mapper

As for NS2, it's looking real nice, but it's a way before it's to the point where any work i'd do comes along. Whilst i've not done much on NS1 for a long time now, it doesn't mean i don't still have my friends at Valve.


Left4Dead is immense fun and, as most of you seem to be, i'm really looking forward to playing it again, i've already seen videos with improvements from feedback since i last played it. It's looking very highly polished 8)

 

[Sathernut]

Wow NS2, that will be so sweet! Any chance of letting us know how far along the game has come?

Anyway back on track, upgrading my PC for this game (and so I can play farcry2 with good graphics lol) should be sweet! Valve makes epic movies haha

 

[r5a]

sick.

 

[undertone]

The game does look like that.


liPillON
Characters don't die in the game, it's a movie style co-op game.
It doesn't have cinematics during the game at all.

He was wrong here wasn't he.

Yup;



The game looks very close to this, i've played it.
DOF and motion blur are already real time in TF2 and DOD:S

Whats that? Not true again?

They're unlikely to carry new enemies, weapons, there is a possibility, but it's gonna be rare.

Maps generally, look for plenty of user made packs, they are comparatively easy to make as it's just geometry and the AI director does the rest.

Oh I'm sorry, are you wrong a third time?

Thanks guys, you saved me a lot of typing

As for the maps, as has more or less already been said, the mapper "merely" needs to do geometry, spawn, end and safe points. The rest *is* done by the AI director.
Also please note i'm no mapper

As for NS2, it's looking real nice, but it's a way before it's to the point where any work i'd do comes along. Whilst i've not done much on NS1 for a long time now, it doesn't mean i don't still have my friends at Valve.


Left4Dead is immense fun and, as most of you seem to be, i'm really looking forward to playing it again, i've already seen videos with improvements from feedback since i last played it. It's looking very highly polished 8)

The mapper still needs to design the level. It doesn't matter how well Valve has designed their AI system, a box map will never be exciting to play. Then the mapper needs to build it in hammer, texture it, light it. We haven't even gotten to adding props, soundscapes, triggers, spawns yet. An in game AI cannot light a level, it cannot generate cubemaps, it cannot texture a level, it cannot fill it with decals and props. Essentially it builds a dynamic single player experience in a level you create that you and all your friends can enjoy together.

I'm sorry if i suspected you haven't even played the game, i shouldn't draw conclusions. But you've made a few statements in this thread that were obviously wrong, and I don't care that you worked on an awesome mod, and are working on a very very good looking game (its not even a source modification any more is it?), you've made a bunch of statements in this thread that have turned out to be completely false.

 

[Eejit]

He was wrong here wasn't he.

I guess that depends on your definition of during the game.

Whats that? Not true again?

Half right.

Oh I'm sorry, are you wrong a third time?

He simplified it a bit, but his point stands. They are comparitively easy to make since AI director takes care of the AI without the mapper taking a hand.

The mapper still needs to design the level. It doesn't matter how well Valve has designed their AI system, a box map will never be exciting to play. Then the mapper needs to build it in hammer, texture it, light it. We haven't even gotten to adding props, soundscapes, triggers, spawns yet. An in game AI cannot light a level, it cannot generate cubemaps, it cannot texture a level, it cannot fill it with decals and props. Essentially it builds a dynamic single player experience in a level you create that you and all your friends can enjoy together.

I'm sorry if i suspected you haven't even played the game, i shouldn't draw conclusions. But you've made a few statements in this thread that were obviously wrong, and I don't care that you worked on an awesome mod, and are working on a very very good looking game (its not even a source modification any more is it?), you've made a bunch of statements in this thread that have turned out to be completely false.

We get it, you're a mapper who's butthurt about someone unintentionally seeming to put down the amount of work that goes into making a decent map. Good for you.

 

[MaDMaXX]

He was wrong here wasn't he.


Whats that? Not true again?


Oh I'm sorry, are you wrong a third time?



The mapper still needs to design the level. It doesn't matter how well Valve has designed their AI system, a box map will never be exciting to play. Then the mapper needs to build it in hammer, texture it, light it. We haven't even gotten to adding props, soundscapes, triggers, spawns yet. An in game AI cannot light a level, it cannot generate cubemaps, it cannot texture a level, it cannot fill it with decals and props. Essentially it builds a dynamic single player experience in a level you create that you and all your friends can enjoy together.

I'm sorry if i suspected you haven't even played the game, i shouldn't draw conclusions. But you've made a few statements in this thread that were obviously wrong, and I don't care that you worked on an awesome mod, and are working on a very very good looking game (its not even a source modification any more is it?), you've made a bunch of statements in this thread that have turned out to be completely false.

Re: the cinematics, without confirming with Valve, there were none in the campaigns i played, on top of that, valve doesn't do cinematics, they do in game events in engine to keep suspense, eg. the dead air campaigns plane crash at the start.
The intro is new to valve as well, guess we're gonna get surprised this time.

Re: the DOF and motion blur, motion blur *IS* in game, i was wrong on the DOF, though i could of sworn it was used in DOD:s, memories are a bad thing.

Re: the enemies and weapons in future packs, you'll notice i was referring to the enemies, but agreed that weapons were possible. This was said due to valve announcing that weapons were planned, but not enemies. Also consider how much harder it would be to introduce completely new characters and what that'd do to game balance.


Re: your whine about what a mapper has to do, you'll notice that i stated "geometry, spawn, end and safe points" which covers everything you just said. Of course releasing a map without texturing it would be stupid.
I'll add to this, when i say spawn, i only mean player spawn, not enemy.

 

[Lobster]

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/54485

Thats the quotes I was referencing, I am not saying things cant change, but they have spoken about introducing new maps, weapons and enemies before.

 

[Silk]

Concerning the mapping I must agree with undertone. I'm no professional mapper but i've been using hammer for long enough to know that AI is just one of many equally important aspects of creating a map. Even if the AI part would be easier in L4D, everything else will still be as timeconsuming as before or, because the L4D engine will once again have extra possibilities, even more so to get it right. I honestly believe that timewise, you won't see much of a difference between mapping for L4D and any other source game.

And i'm not entirely sure that the AI aspect will be more easy either. Remember that AI has always been intelligent before (enemies have had decent intelligency since HL1 and have acted automaticly in most situations), yet you often had to spend a lot of time on getting it right using many entities several times and having to keep redesigning your map to work well with it. This time the AI is a lot more intelligent, but i'm pretty sure this doesn't at all mean that to implement it in a map you just have to place an "AI_Directory" entity somewhere and put it to "enable". I expect (hope) there to be a lot of options and possibilities that can make the map incredibly dynamic and fun, IF done right in hammer, which will most likely still take a lot of time.

Valve never made something that is fundamental to the gameplay easy to implement, cause that would mean fewer possibilities in future maps or versions, or fewer (interesting) mods cause in order to make something different you need to have control.

Examples:
- If you can't control where zombies should be able to climb up, you'll have to redesign your map everytime you notice during testing that their AI makes it possible for them to climb up on something they shouldn't be able to get. If they should be able to get up somewhere but for some reason don't, ... yeah then what, ... trying to redesign that part of the map i guess, hoping that'll fix it.
- If you CAN control where zombies should be able to get up, expect a lot of work implementing it right, and many hours of searching for fixes when this part doesn't seem to work very well.
- Imagine you're in some room, and for some reason (the story, some mod with different gameplay, whatever ...) a radio is used to warn you about something while everything is absolutely silent. The intention is too play a loud sound to scare all players right after they've been warned followed by a breach and a zombie attack. Depending on how the AI director works however, he could very well have started playing certain background music or noises that are either too soon so they ruin the scary effect, or just wrong for what you wanted to reach with that part of the map. Extra control will be necessary, and knowing valve i hope they put in a lot of entities or options that give you this control.

No i don't think mapping for L4D will be easier, not if you want to make a quality map/mod.

 

[undertone]

We get it, you're a mapper who's butthurt about someone unintentionally seeming to put down the amount of work that goes into making a decent map. Good for you.

No, i just don't like people making statements that are not entirely true over and over again. It reminds me of the battle.net forums, and that makes my brain want to cave in. I also don't like it when my opinion is worthless just because the guy I'm ragging on is working on a pretty sweet game. Our affiliations and our deeds should have no impact on how we are treated, especially on an internet forum.

Re: the cinematics, without confirming with Valve, there were none in the campaigns i played, on top of that, valve doesn't do cinematics, they do in game events in engine to keep suspense, eg. the dead air campaigns plane crash at the start.
The intro is new to valve as well, guess we're gonna get surprised this time.

Fair enough, but like you said this time around things are going to be a little different.

Re: the DOF and motion blur, motion blur *IS* in game, i was wrong on the DOF, though i could of sworn it was used in DOD:s, memories are a bad thing.

I think they showed off one time that they COULD use depth of field in DODS, but then never did implement it.

Re: the enemies and weapons in future packs, you'll notice i was referring to the enemies, but agreed that weapons were possible. This was said due to valve announcing that weapons were planned, but not enemies. Also consider how much harder it would be to introduce completely new characters and what that'd do to game balance.

I dunno, i think new enemies would be as hard to balance as new weapons in TF2. Essentially if your enemy has one of the new weapons and its over powered, that's almost the same as fighting an over powered enemy in L4D. Never underestimate the Valve.

Re: your whine about what a mapper has to do, you'll notice that i stated "geometry, spawn, end and safe points" which covers everything you just said. Of course releasing a map without texturing it would be stupid.
I'll add to this, when i say spawn, i only mean player spawn, not enemy.

About half the work that goes into a map is entity work, something the AI could never do. I wasn't really trying to make that come off as a whine, but it was the topic that i had the most experience with. I know how to make a map, and i know a lot of the process is missing when you leave out the entities. It would be like me saying "all you have to do is make notes with modern sound engineering systems, the computer does the rest". Not entirely accurate, but I'm sure someone somewhere would make this statement.

Concerning the mapping I must agree with undertone. I'm no professional mapper but i've been using hammer for long enough to know that AI is just one of many equally important aspects of creating a map. Even if the AI part would be easier in L4D, everything else will still be as timeconsuming as before or, because the L4D engine will once again have extra possibilities, even more so to get it right. I honestly believe that timewise, you won't see much of a difference between mapping for L4D and any other source game.

And i'm not entirely sure that the AI aspect will be more easy either. Remember that AI has always been intelligent before (enemies have had decent intelligency since HL1 and have acted automaticly in most situations), yet you often had to spend a lot of time on getting it right using many entities several times and having to keep redesigning your map to work well with it. This time the AI is a lot more intelligent, but i'm pretty sure this doesn't at all mean that to implement it in a map you just have to place an "AI_Directory" entity somewhere and put it to "enable". I expect (hope) there to be a lot of options and possibilities that can make the map incredibly dynamic and fun, IF done right in hammer, which will most likely still take a lot of time.

Valve never made something that is fundamental to the gameplay easy to implement, cause that would mean fewer possibilities in future maps or versions, or fewer (interesting) mods cause in order to make something different you need to have control.

Examples:
- If you can't control where zombies should be able to climb up, you'll have to redesign your map everytime you notice during testing that their AI makes it possible for them to climb up on something they shouldn't be able to get. If they should be able to get up somewhere but for some reason don't, ... yeah then what, ... trying to redesign that part of the map i guess, hoping that'll fix it.
- If you CAN control where zombies should be able to get up, expect a lot of work implementing it right, and many hours of searching for fixes when this part doesn't seem to work very well.
- Imagine you're in some room, and for some reason (the story, some mod with different gameplay, whatever ...) a radio is used to warn you about something while everything is absolutely silent. The intention is too play a loud sound to scare all players right after they've been warned followed by a breach and a zombie attack. Depending on how the AI director works however, he could very well have started playing certain background music or noises that are either too soon so they ruin the scary effect, or just wrong for what you wanted to reach with that part of the map. Extra control will be necessary, and knowing valve i hope they put in a lot of entities or options that give you this control.

No i don't think mapping for L4D will be easier, not if you want to make a quality map/mod.

I think the AI will make it a lot easier for mappers to set maps up, and make them replayable, BUT there will still be TONES of work that goes into making a level pack for L4D. Remember, its not just one level, it will be multiple levels. Even with out AI, that is a whole lot of work. Probably more then any TF2 or CSS map.

 

[MaDMaXX]

You're definitely looking more towards a single player map in terms of work involved rather than a multiplayer map.
I would suspect you'd have to add entities to certain map geometry to say where the AID can and can't do things.
All in, i'd say that the work level is cut down a bit by the AID, this can only be a good thing for us all.
I'm just not a mapper

 

[hool10]

Well regardless Valve has said that they will release regular map updates. Now your probably thinking "Valve time, lol" but those TF2 updates have come out pretty damn fast. They have come out like every week and it's something. What I think will happen is we will get new weapons and boss Infected. Yet when you have a new weapon, it will probably replace the M4 or something. It will have it's own advantages and disadvantages. The same goes for the boss Infected as well. You can either choose to be the Hunter or another boss that you unlocked.

There also is tons of work that still goes into mapping. Its just that the AI Director now controls spawn points, music, and lighting levels. I'm quoting Wikipedia here:

The artificial intelligence of Left 4 Dead features a dynamic system for game dramatics, pacing, and difficulty called the "Director". Instead of set spawn points for enemies, the Director places enemies in varying positions and numbers based upon each player's current situation, status, skill and location, creating a new experience each playthrough.[4] The Director also creates mood and tension with emotional cues such as visual effects, dynamic music and character communication.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_4_Dead

The whole debate on DOF is in the Source Engine btw. Check your TF2 settings and you will see an option for Motion Blur, etc. It's just that they use it correctly so it feels natural unlike Crysis. Another quote on DOD:S:

Other effects were added post-release to make the game appear as if it were a World War II era film. The effects include motion blur,[21] depth of field,[22] film grain[23] and color correction.[24] Phong shading on the Source engine was added to Day of Defeat: Source with the major update in the second quarter of 2006.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_defeat_source
For a more in-depth report, it can be found on bit-tech. http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/2005/12/09/source_film_effects/2

Don't slam each others mods neither. Both great mods and they must be great if they have survived this long.

 

[SamuraiKenji]

Upon watching this movie of ****ing epic i do think i came bricks

 

[MaDMaXX]

I think it's going to be a long time or only just possible they'll release more boss infected, however, the guns side is quite possible.
After playing through all weapons except the sniper rifle, my friend whored that one. I can honestly say, they're so well balance, they're all about the same, they just do it in differing styles.
So i will hazard a guess it would be quite easy to add in alternatives.

 

[undertone]

You're definitely looking more towards a single player map in terms of work involved rather than a multiplayer map.
I would suspect you'd have to add entities to certain map geometry to say where the AID can and can't do things.
All in, i'd say that the work level is cut down a bit by the AID, this can only be a good thing for us all.
I'm just not a mapper

I've never worked on a single player map from start to finish, so i've never had to fight with the AI in source. I'm glad they've finally come up with something that handles this for us mappers. There's still so much that goes into making a map though, like making it purdy.

Don't slam each others mods neither. Both great mods and they must be great if they have survived this long.

I don't think there was any mod slamming going on here... was there?