London and Birmingham Riots

Shakermaker said:
Only in Northern Ireland afaik.
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Where they're employed without a thought.

From Guardian live blog:

Henry McDonald, our Ireland correspondent, says that if the English police start firing plastic bullets to quell the rioting engulfing cities in Britain then they potentially risk opening a Pandora's box.

"Paradoxically the reluctance thus far to deploy the anti-riot control weapon only confirms the view in Northern Ireland especially in working class republican communities that there is one law for one side of the Irish Sea and one law for the other in the United Kingdom.

According to the main indices of Ulster Troubles' deaths 17 people have lost their lives after being struck by rubber and latterly plastic bullets. Worrying still is the fact that eight out of these victims have been children.

Even during this summer's Ulster loyalist marching season the Police Service of Northern Ireland continued to deploy plastic baton rounds during riots in Belfast. Dozens of plastic bullets were fired during two night's of rioting at the edge of the republican Ardoyne area of north Belfast.

As the PSNI riot squad heavily protected in ninja-style armour and helmets with visors started letting off baton rounds and deploying water cannon on a small but dedicated gang of young republicans opposed to a loyalist march passing by Ardoyne on 12 July, a local priest contrasted the attitude of police in his city to those handling last autumn's violent student protests in central London.

"There would be an outcry if these types of weapons were used on the streets of Brixton, Toxteth or any English city," noted Fr Gary Donegan whose Holy Cross church was caught in the middle of the violence over those 48 hours.

We now await to see if the authorities in England are prepared to follow the PSNI's strategy in coping with rioters or not."
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I got sent home from my work office in Birmingham early today. I only left at 15:00 but some more riots were apparently already kicking off. My office is literally next door to the train station so didn't really get to see much.

The police chief has said that there will be no need for army involvement but rubber bullets will be used if rioting continues. Stylo, not sure on water cannons, but rubber bullets have never been used in Britain as of yet.
 
Man, putting the army against your own citizens is a very risky move, it should really only be used as a last resort.
 
Minister said:
Stylo, not sure on water cannons, but rubber bullets have never been used in Britain as of yet.
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Yeah, true. They were just used in Ireland in the 70s then replaced with plastic bullets which are meant to be "safer and more accurate", apparently.
 
Have the God Queen of the UK destroy the rioters with her psychic might.
 
LOL, the last time one of our monarchs actually exercised power was in 1704. By convention, unless requested by the Prime Minister, The Queen is a tourist attraction.
 
Sure is middle class in here.

Hey guys, rioters from the lower end of the socio-economic/educational level scale are not generally as eloquent as paragons of verbosity such as Dodds.
Perhaps then one should take that into accountbefore dismissing these events as animal violence or mindless greed and opportunism. Just because nobody has posted youtube clips articulating dissatisfaction and malaise faced by many youths in today's economic climate doesn't mean they're all just morons doing it for the lulz.
 
^ But surely they must realize that they aren't helping their cause (whether it's justified or not), by burning down their own neighbourhood? The only people they are hurting are poor themselves. It's not like the politicians and the CEO are going to lose any power or wealth by them nicking beer from small shops. To say that this is a justified reaction of the working classes is to insult their intelligence.
 
I'm not saying it's justified, I'm saying it's somewhat understandable. It's certainly unjust... but in reaction to other (perceived?) injustices. When uni graduates have been finding it difficult to get jobs at a McDonalds what's happening to those who have been leaving school with their GCSEs for the past few years?
And sure it isn't a logical course of action, but when deep-seated dissatisfaction finally finds an outlet emotions tend to run high and few look far into the future. No matter one's c'lass'.
 
Eejit said:
Sure is middle class in here.

Hey guys, rioters from the lower end of the socio-economic/educational level scale are not generally as eloquent as paragons of verbosity such as Dodds.
Perhaps then one should take that into accountbefore dismissing these events as animal violence or mindless greed and opportunism. Just because nobody has posted youtube clips articulating dissatisfaction and malaise faced by many youths in today's economic climate doesn't mean they're all just morons doing it for the lulz.
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Well here's the thing, Eejit. It's not rioting for a Political reason, as most of the rioters are unaware of who is even in power in this country, let alone what they're doing.

It's not for material reasons as after you've burgled a shop, why then punch the staff and burn it to the ground?

It's not rioting for any kind of Social Motivation as all this is literally terrorism. Striking fear into people through violence and destruction isn't boosting our morale any.

Basically, there is nothing driving these riots except the fact that these people feel big and get some sort of joy from causing chaos and damage. That is basically, morons doing it for the lulz.
 
You don't have to be well educated or eloquent to realize that looting and burning indiscriminately is retarded.
 
Stylo said:
Well here's the thing, Eejit. It's not rioting for a Political reason, as most of the rioters are unaware of who is even in power in this country, let alone what they're doing.

It's not for material reasons as after you've burgled a shop, why then punch the staff and burn it to the ground?

It's not rioting for any kind of Social Motivation as all this is literally terrorism. Striking fear into people through violence and destruction isn't boosting our morale any.

Basically, there is nothing driving these riots except the fact that these people feel big and get some sort of joy from causing chaos and damage. That is basically, morons doing it for the lulz.
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Small false dichotomy there. Just because it isn't for "political reasons" doesn't mean it's 'for the lulz'.

I agree politics isn't a direct factor. The economic situation for which politicians share some responsibility is. People who feel aggrieved are lashing out. This isn't about achieving a result from some motivation, it's a reaction from some people as to how shitty lives have become with the state of the country.

Hell even the protests from supposedly educated relatively well-off students featured violence and property damage as people vented. Why wouldn't you expect a similar outburst from those with far less and far worse prospects to be much more excessive?


Basically how about you all move a few rungs down on your high horses (with attached rungs) and realise that your opinion as a detached observer or as someone frightened by these riots isn't necessarily giving you much insight into the causes of them. It's like 'Nam man. You aren't there, you don't understand.



Disclaimer: devil's advocate, deliberately turning Empathy up to 11.
 
My local shopping centre closed early. This shopping centre is huge (Westfield Merry Hill) and I would be very surprised if it wasn't targeted.

Riots have already started in Birmingham, Wolverhampton and West Brom it would seem.

http://birminghamriots2011.tumblr.com/

They need to get the rubber bullets and water cannon out already. Sod their human rights, what they're doing is wrong.
 
Regardless of their intentions, and their 'frustrations' at the state of the country they're still completely retarded believing this will change anything. Lashing out at people's own businesses that they've put their lives into and setting fire to people's homes isn't going to get them a job any time soon, or change the job market.

Mindless.
 
Sure, it's not going to achieve anything beyond venting for the sake of it. However, that doesn't justify people posting that the rioters should all die, are inhuman scum etc. as per this thread.
 
Eejit said:
Sure, it's not going to achieve anything beyond venting for the sake of it. However, that doesn't justify people posting that the rioters should all die, are inhuman scum etc. as per this thread.
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They're hardly the innocent, hard-done-by victims of recession you're painting them out to be either.
 
Ren.182 said:
Riots have already started in Birmingham, Wolverhampton and West Brom it would seem.
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If these riots result in the cancellation of the first day of the football season, I'm going to be pissed. I was so relishing the idea of getting beaten by Man Utd on Sunday.
 
I'm devil's advocating on their behalf in reaction to such hyperbole. I'm allowed to.
 
[video]http://yfrog.com/0wtduz[/video]

It's a good job these cops fell back. They wouldn't have stood a chance.

One game has already been cancelled, I wouldn't be surprised if more were cancelled if the riots don't die down by the weekend.
 
It's obvious to anyone with any sense that these riots are a reaction to economic circumstances these people have found themselves in, there's a reason middle class people don't riot - they have too much to loose. These people clearly see themselves as having no future and nothing to lose.

That said, it doesn't justify them. This is going to be a tough, bloody century and we cannot afford to have entire communities attacking society itself.

These riots need to be met with a tough response and the police are obviously doing their best. It should also be obvious that Cameron's policies are at fault here and had his Police cuts been allowed to take further effect this would be a much more difficult situation.

I am a socialist and yet I recoginise here you have to take a stand and, for now, I'm with the state.

Edit: I should add I'm back in Burnley at the moment, we had riots here in 2000 and it was not a pretty event. Right now there's been a chopper in the sky for the past hour and I noticed plenty more police about, there is however a minor football match kicking off later but you can really see the state nationwide is bracing itself.

Edit2: Milton Keynes just kicked off, this is starting to look more like an insurrection than your typical riot.

Edit3: Market Street in Manchester now on fire. Shit's getting serious.
 
Eejit said:
Sure, it's not going to achieve anything beyond venting for the sake of it.
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Venting for the sake of it, by destroying and looting everything in sight is not right, no matter how hard their lives have been lately. No sympathy from me.
 
Eejit said:
Sure, it's not going to achieve anything beyond venting for the sake of it. However, that doesn't justify people posting that the rioters should all die, are inhuman scum etc. as per this thread.
Click to expand...

I don't care if you are playing the devils advocate, just shut the **** up.

Riots starting to brew in Manchester, Selfriges was set on fire and the Arndale was targeted, GMP have stated its only minor incidents for now. My girlfriend went and saw a friend there today and is now stuck there because buses and cars can't get anywhere now, I just hope it doesn't escalate.
 
My friend just took these in Manchester
manchesterriot.jpgmanchesterriot2.jpgmanchesterriot3.jpg
 
Solaris said:
It's obvious to anyone with any sense that these riots are a reaction to economic circumstances these people have found themselves in, there's a reason middle class people don't riot - they have too much to loose. These people clearly see themselves as having no future and nothing to lose.

That said, it doesn't justify them. This is going to be a tough, bloody century and we cannot afford to have entire communities attacking society itself.

These riots need to be met with a tough response and the police are obviously doing their best. It should also be obvious that Cameron's policies are at fault here and had his Police cuts been allowed to take further effect this would be a much more difficult situation.

I am a socialist and yet I recoginise here you have to take a stand and, for now, I'm with the state.

Edit: I should add I'm back in Burnley at the moment, we had riots here in 2000 and it was not a pretty event. Right now there's been a chopper in the sky for the past hour and I noticed plenty more police about, there is however a minor football match kicking off later but you can really see the state nationwide is bracing itself.

Edit2: Milton Keynes just kicked off, this is starting to look more like an insurrection than your typical riot.

Edit3: Market Street in Manchester now on fire. Shit's getting serious.
Click to expand...
You can't fight fire with fire. If the police has an extremely hostile attitude, it's only going to enforce anti-police (and anti-society) sentiments among those people. This current violence has to stop, no doubt, but it's time for the London police to seriously reconsider their policing approaches in these neighbourhoods. They have the reputation of being among the least dialogue-inclined police departments in Europe. If you want to curb violence in the long term, you have to create an atmosphere of mutual trust and respect between the people on the street and the officers. They have to get more involved in the local organizations, youth centres, sporting facilities, etc., to show that the role of the police is to help and serve the people, rather then being a violent force to be feared.
 
The Monkey said:
You can't fight fire with fire. If the police has an extremely hostile attitude, it's only going to enforce anti-police (and anti-society) sentiments among those people. This current violence has to stop, no doubt, but it's time for the London police to seriously reconsider their policing approaches in these neighbourhoods. They have the reputation of being among the least dialogue-inclined police departments in Europe. If you want to curb violence in the long term, you have to create an atmosphere of mutual trust and respect between the people on the street and the officers. They have to get more involved in the local organizations, youth centres, sporting facilities, etc., so show that the role of the police is to help and serve the people, rather then being a violent force to be feared.
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I agree 100%, but right now kids and youths are wrecking some of our cities most famous areas. Lines need to be drawn here.
 
Solaris said:
It's obvious to anyone with any sense that these riots are a reaction to economic circumstances these people have found themselves in, there's a reason middle class people don't riot - they have too much to loose. These people clearly see themselves as having no future and nothing to lose.

That said, it doesn't justify them. This is going to be a tough, bloody century and we cannot afford to have entire communities attacking society itself.

These riots need to be met with a tough response and the police are obviously doing their best. It should also be obvious that Cameron's policies are at fault here and had his Police cuts been allowed to take further effect this would be a much more difficult situation.

I am a socialist and yet I recoginise here you have to take a stand and, for now, I'm with the state.

Edit: I should add I'm back in Burnley at the moment, we had riots here in 2000 and it was not a pretty event. Right now there's been a chopper in the sky for the past hour and I noticed plenty more police about, there is however a minor football match kicking off later but you can really see the state nationwide is bracing itself.

Edit2: Milton Keynes just kicked off, this is starting to look more like an insurrection than your typical riot.

Edit3: Market Street in Manchester now on fire. Shit's getting serious.
Click to expand...

shouldnt you be smashing windows whit your comrades?
 
So we're just going to straight-up insult anyone who doesn't brand the riots as 100% hooligan behaviour with absolutely no basis in politics or economics?

The Monkey said:
You can't fight fire with fire. If the police has an extremely hostile attitude, it's only going to enforce anti-police (and anti-society) sentiments among those people. This current violence has to stop, no doubt, but it's time for the London police to seriously reconsider their policing approaches in these neighbourhoods. They have the reputation of being among the least dialogue-inclined police departments in Europe. If you want to curb violence in the long term, you have to create an atmosphere of mutual trust and respect between the people on the street and the officers. They have to get more involved in the local organizations, youth centres, sporting facilities, etc., to show that the role of the police is to help and serve the people, rather then being a violent force to be feared.
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Agreed completely. The onus is on the powerful to take the first steps.
 
Urr yes? Only people who live in this country would understand, they are hooligans, or 'chavs', their sole purpose in life is to cause trouble. So the original outbreaks may have had some kind of reason but the reason it escalated is because all the yobs in London thought 'YES another reason to cause violence!' and so they go out and start burning houses down.

A few months back there were masses of student protests, some right here in Manchester, those protests turned into riots caused yet again by mass loads of chavs who weren't even students! Hell most of them probably couldn't even read.. They just get an idea or incentive to cause mindless violence and go with it, that is their only agenda. Its that simple.

These are the same kind of people who in my area alone, kicked a defenceless donkey to death in a field, caught and cut the heads off a bunch of birds and scattered them on the road and found a stray kitten, put it in a bin and set it on fire, all different incidents that have happened over the past two years alone. So yes, I will insult anyone who defends these people even slightly. They are an abomination of humanity.
 
Shift said:
Urr yes? Only people who live in this country would understand, they are hooligans, or 'chavs', their sole purpose in life is to cause trouble. So the original outbreaks may have had some kind of reason but the reason it escalated is because all the yobs in London thought 'YES another reason to cause violence!' and so they go out and start burning houses down.

A few months back there were masses of student protests, some right here in Manchester, those protests turned into riots caused yet again by mass loads of chavs who weren't even students! Hell most of them probably couldn't even read.. They just get an idea or incentive to cause mindless violence and go with it, that is their only agenda. Its that simple.
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Absolute bullshit, the police beat everyone off the streats. And this has nothing to do with chavs. You don't really get black chavs for a starter.
 
Shift said:
Urr yes? Only people who live in this country would understand, they are hooligans, or 'chavs', their sole purpose in life is to cause trouble. So the original outbreaks may have had some kind of reason but the reason it escalated is because all the yobs in London thought 'YES another reason to cause violence!' and so they go out and start burning houses down.

A few months back there were masses of student protests, some right here in Manchester, those protests turned into riots caused yet again by mass loads of chavs who weren't even students! Hell most of them probably couldn't even read.. They just get an idea or incentive to cause mindless violence and go with it, that is their only agenda. Its that simple.
Click to expand...
And the reason chavs act the way they do is because of a poor and disconnected socio-politico-economic culture, in conjunction with an equally-disconnected system of support.

We have plenty of chavs this side of the pond. We call them "assholes" and "sociopaths".
 
Put simply, their parents are to blame primarily, people who can spawn scum like that shouldn't be having children, yet the teenage pregnancy rates in this country continues to grow meaning more and more people are having children who are simply unfit to be parents. They then have to go off benefits and end up council homes, which are ALWAYS the catalyst for chav communities. Abstinence classes REALLY need to be enforced early in education.

Its also down to this country simply being far too slack with everything, we are are FAR too liberal, and we are liberal about the wrong ideas. There was a guy speaking on the news today who said the discipline of the country is appalling and things like this occurring become easier with every passing year and its true. There isn't enough force and control issued by the hands of the parents, teachers and of course the government themselves. I personally think its time to bring back national service, back then you didn't have any of this shit because the army straightened EVERYONE out by the time they got to a certain age.
 
Solaris said:
Absolute bullshit, the police beat everyone off the streats. And this has nothing to do with chavs. You don't really get black chavs for a starter.
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I was there and I saw it myself, police vans were swarmed and set on fire, there were huge clashes with the police, thankfully it only lasted a few hours. My point was, the people who caused this violence did it not because they were niffed at rising course fees, but because it was a reason to kick off with the police. And OF COURSE you get black chavs, I was once almost got mugged in broad daylight in the center of Manchester by one a few years ago, there are communities of them in the surrounding boroughs. Not to mention I'm pretty sure the ones causing the violence in Manchester at the moment aren't black.
 
Shift said:
Put simply, their parents are to blame primarily, people who can spawn scum like that shouldn't be having children, yet the teenage pregnancy rates in this country continues to grow meaning more and more people are having children who are simply unfit to be parents. They then have to go off benefits and end up council homes, which are ALWAYS the catalyst for chav communities. Abstinence classes REALLY need to be enforced early in education.

Its also down to this country simply being far too slack with everything, we are are FAR too liberal, and we are liberal about the wrong ideas. There was a guy speaking on the news today who said the discipline of the country is appalling and things like this occurring become easier with every passing year and its true. There isn't enough force and control issued by the hands of the parents, teachers and of course the government themselves. I personally think its time to bring back national service, back then you didn't have any of this shit because the army straightened EVERYONE out by the time they got to a certain age.
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This is the biggest load of reactionary crap I ever read. Can you provide a source that abstinence classes are more effective than what we have now?
 
lol abstinence classes

...another federally funded study of four abstinence-only programs by the Mathematica Policy Research Inc., published in April of 2007, revealed similar results. The research group found that “participants had just as many sexual partners as nonparticipants and had sex at the same median age as nonparticipants.” In other words, abstinence education programs did nothing favorable – the result was the same as if there were no program being offered at all.
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http://www.openeducation.net/2009/0...ducation-statistics-final-nail-in-the-coffin/
 
Shift - making people he argues against look good by comparison since 2006.
 
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