M249 Saw

R

RObErT_RaTh

Guest
This is the latest model I have done for a HL2 mod I am working on called Stargate: Rebellion. It's pretty hi poly at 9077 but dont worry, all backfaces and such will be deleted. It's the latest weapon for the American teams arsenal. Let me know what you think.

M249 SAW Left
M249 SAW Right
 
That's one hell of a model. Do you mind posting a wire-frame shot?
 
nice model. good luck going from 9k polies to 2.5-3, you're going to lose a lot of detail. to put that in perspective its probably going to look about half as good as it does now.
 
ray_MAN, I don't know how to do that in 3ds max. I use Milkshape 3D to model but it sucks at renders so I could do a wireframe in that but it wouldnt look to good.

ghOst, why would I have to go all the way down to 2500-3000 polys. HL1 was meant for less than 1000 and people have put 3000 poly models in that no probs. If I got the M249 down to about 6500-7000 I would be happy. And just so people know, the bullets make up 2500 polys.
 
Verc said:
We target between 3000 polygons (i.e.: headcrabs) and 7500 polygons (i.e. Alyx, the Gman) for characters and monsters, depending on function and how many we hope to have on-screen simultaneously, and we have several stages of LOD (level of detail) models with drastically reduced polygon counts for when things get smaller in screen space (further away).

We're targeting around 2000 polygons for our viewmodels (which of course do not LOD) including hands. Some current examples (final values are likely to be different):

v_crossbow.mdl: 592
v_smg2.mdl: 2854
v_smg2.mdl: 1851
v_bugbait: 1958
v_rocketlauncher: 1791
v_physics: 2298
v_shotgun: 1925
Click to expand...

your making a mistake by using 7000(!) polys in that weapon. by not appealing to a mix of the high end and the low, you're going to alienate a huge amount of people who would potentially be playing your mod. 7000 polys is what they target for a CHARACTER.

i should point out also that it depends upon how many people you intend to put in multiplayer. if you have 32 having that polycount is not going to work.
 
hmm... most mods are aiming for 7000 for their VEHICLES. That's a lot of tris to keep rendering... and it'll be a bitch to texture.

If the bullets make up 2500, defintly loose most of the detial there.
 
ghOst, I have seen a lot of mods with vehicles at 15000 and above. The main reason I modelled this with so much detail is because there are lots of mods out there and some are producing extremely good/high poly models that show lots of detail. If our mod cant produce models of equal or better quality then we will have less people playing our mod because they will loose interest. If player models are around 7500 (which ours wont be) then I think HL2 should be able to handle one v_model with a high poly count. And what I said before still goes, HL1 can be played with much higher poly models that it was designed so I have no reason to believe that HL2 wont be able to do the same. Also, someone told me that HL2 will not be rendering backfaces in v_models anyway. Is there any truth to this?

SidewinderX143, I think the bullets will be the first place I cut down polys. For the rest of the gun I wont neccessarily be cutting down detail but I will optimise stuff and reduce the polycount.
 
suit yourself. you might want to take our advice in the future though.

nice model by the way :)
 
I will be taking your advice and cutting it down but its just not possible to lower it to 3000 without practically remodelling it. I am capable of doing lower poly models with plenty of detail. I give you this MP5A4 as an example. If you dont count the scope, which is how I made it for a different mod, it is only 1775 polys. With the scope it is 2849 polys.

MP5A4
 
theres a few places that stand out to me, where you could lose a few polies. for example, on the fore-grip, you could use a bump/normal map to do those grooves, saving a lot of polies, not only on the half cylinders, but connecting it to the outer shape.

next is the stock...oh dear god. how many polies does it need ? it wont be seen in game, so it may as well be square. the last obvious one is using a n aplha map for the holes in thingy at the front. i know youve probably thought about this, but anyways ive written it now.
 
Loads of wasted polgons tbh. I could proberly make it look as good as it does with 3000 triangles. I would just have to skin the wholes in the barrle and in the legs. Its not even a complicated model to say you have 7000.

Anyway, it looks nice. But if its for hl2 its a bad model with wasted polgons pritty much everywhere.
 
IchI, wasted polys or just detail you don't think I need? There is a difference.

random.hero, thanks for writing it down :D
 
RObErT_RaTh said:
ghOst, I have seen a lot of mods with vehicles at 15000 and above. The main reason I modelled this with so much detail is because there are lots of mods out there and some are producing extremely good/high poly models that show lots of detail. If our mod cant produce models of equal or better quality then we will have less people playing our mod because they will loose interest. If player models are around 7500 (which ours wont be) then I think HL2 should be able to handle one v_model with a high poly count. And what I said before still goes, HL1 can be played with much higher poly models that it was designed so I have no reason to believe that HL2 wont be able to do the same. Also, someone told me that HL2 will not be rendering backfaces in v_models anyway. Is there any truth to this?

SidewinderX143, I think the bullets will be the first place I cut down polys. For the rest of the gun I wont neccessarily be cutting down detail but I will optimise stuff and reduce the polycount.
Click to expand...



You seem to have made up your mind about it, but seriously, that's way too many poly's for one gun. If it was for single player then sure you could probably get away with it. But your making a multiplayer mod, where you could have two or three of these come together. In my opinion your just asking for problems. Now sure top of the line computers at a lan probaly would have no problem. But in an average online game, I think you are going to have some major problems if you use that kind of standard for weapon models. Just my two cents.

You know, you can add a lot of detail with normal maps. Though hardly any mods seem to be doing this at least so far.
 
RObErT_RaTh said:
Also, someone told me that HL2 will not be rendering backfaces in v_models anyway. Is there any truth to this?
AFAIK, no engine can NOT render faces. The engine won't render level geometry that was made with a brush that you don't see, but the engine has no way of telling which polys it can and cannot see. So, if you don't want it to render backfaces, delete them.


And what I said before still goes, HL1 can be played with much higher poly models that it was designed so I have no reason to believe that HL2 wont be able to do the same
Click to expand...
That's because Half-Life is years old. Computer systems have grown in leaps and bounds since then. Maybe in 2 years or so everyone will be able to play hl2 with 7000 polys first person models and not loose performance.

I have seen a lot of mods with vehicles at 15000 and above.
Click to expand...
that's because they don't know have a clue.

The main reason I modelled this with so much detail is because there are lots of mods out there and some are producing extremely good/high poly models that show lots of detail. If our mod cant produce models of equal or better quality then we will have less people playing our mod because they will loose interest.
Click to expand...
That may seem true now, when all a mod cna show, besides ideas, is models, and sadly, most people decide to follow a mod because of that. However, as soon as mods start getting videos, screenshots, and playable builds out, NO ONE WILL CARE! Yes they'll want them to look *decent* but they're not gonna stop playing a mod because the models look like crap. I mean comeon, look how many people play Firearms :p. Seriously, models might get you a few people now, but they'll mean VERY little when the mod is playable.



And for my last comment on the high poly count... a case study, if you will :p

look at this screenshot of Far Cry.
Link to Image

In that WHOLE comples scene, there are 83,353 polys. If you keep the SAW at your current count, it will accoutn for almost 11% of that scene.... which is ALOT!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Well everyone else said pretty much what I would have said.

So.. ignore their advice at your peril Robert.
 
Backfaces - you delete them. Most of the polys on the bottom/right of the weapon will never be seen. You also have to take the hands into consideration - they're going to add polys to your model.

That model is so over the polygun budget, it hurts. I'm not sure what you can do with it. It's too low-poly to be used as a high-poly model to generate a decent normal map, and too high poly to be an in-game model.

You cannot possibly use that as a v_model as it stands. As Sidewinder pointed out, you'd be using a huge chunk of the overall scene budget, and that's just one weapon.

One point I'll make in your favour (kind of) - the amount of people in a multiplayer game is irrelevant in this case - each client only sees one v_model - their own.

My advice is to use it as a base to make a lower poly version.
 
Neutrino said:
You seem to have made up your mind about it, but seriously, that's way too many poly's for one gun. If it was for single player then sure you could probably get away with it. But your making a multiplayer mod, where you could have two or three of these come together. In my opinion your just asking for problems.
Click to expand...

Neutrino, 2 or 3 of these come together? You do know that there are 3 different types of models in Half-Life, a model viewed by you in first person (v_model), your model viewed by others (p_model) and world models on the ground for all to see (w_model). The p_models and w_models will be EXTREMELY low in poly count. You will NEVER have to render 2 v_models of the M249. They wont even be reduced models from the original M249, I will be making seperate p_models and w_models for all the weapons.

SidewinderX143, point taken

Pi Mu Rho, I only just saw your post while writing this one. I wont be using the M249 as a base for the p_model and w_model because they will simply be way to many polys if I did. Because these are the models you may see more than 1 on screen at a time I will be making them seperate to cut down on polys.
 
"I wont be using the M249 as a base for the p_model and w_model because they will simply be way to many polys if I did. Because these are the models you may see more than 1 on screen at a time I will be making them seperate to cut down on polys."

Now excuse me for butting in here, but isn't that common knowledge? Did you just notice? Seems a bit strange, but i'm relatively drunk, and there's a moth flying around my room. Only a matter of time before the numerous case fans take care of it though! HA! ****ing moths.
 
Common knowledge? I thought so too, but by the looks of it on page 1 I don't think Neutrino knew this thats why I wrote it down.
 
I'm pretty sure there's no seperate p_ and w_ models any more. Just one combined p_model.
 
JKeller1068, thankyou :D

Pi Mu Rho, where are you getting this from? I haven't heard anything about it. Anyways it doesnt really matter because all p_models and w_models I have made in the past have been the same model anyways ie same amount of polys. The only difference was how I compiled them to go ingame.
 
I would simply find out how many triangles HL2 can handle on the screen.

Just to ask:

whats the point in having the side ingraves on the left handle area?
Whats the point in having holes in the biopod?
Whats the point in having holes in the chamber area?
Whats the point in having engraves in the end of the barrel?

Whats the point in having all those polgons?

PS, Theres no point having that many polgons, simple. You don't need them. In my opinion its badly modelled and your dissision to just listen to your self is stupid.
 
Ease up. If you were on a mod that had no skinners and all you had were your models then you'd probably put more detail into them also.

To answer your questions;

Your talking about the rear handle? Because it will be one of the most seen parts of the gun and therefore should be detailed.

There are no holes in the bipod, they are indents. Thats how it is in real life so thats how I modelled it but since everyone is protesting I will get rid of the detail.

Are you talking about the heat shield with holes on the top and sides? I guess I could get rid of those but without a skin on my model it would make it look much less detailed.

They aren't engravings, they are holes. I spose I could delete them.

If I were to make a lower poly version of this model following what everyone has said here, would everyone be satisfied?
 
With no skin? why are you making a weapon without a skin? Also if you are going for a game where you use only 1 colour textures you can still use that colour to texture your weapons. Even if you making a game with 1 simple bland colour you still skin your weapons to look like bland models. You will proberly be using bump maps more than everyone else, so thats just another reason to get rid of the detail and use bump maps.

I am not against you putting this into the hl2 engine. I just can't comprehend your why you would want to make it so high polgon when it doesn't need to be.
 
RObErT_RaTh said:
Ease up. If you were on a mod that had no skinners and all you had were your models then you'd probably put more detail into them also.
Click to expand...

If i was on a mod with no skinners, id actually learn to skin [which i did] or i would recruit a skinner, i wouldnt just add more detail to my weapon, thats exactly why people make skins, to get rid of detail in the mesh.

and ichi is right, there is no debate in the fact that the bipod could just be a normal little stick with a couple fingers, and the engraves at the end of the barrel got to go, the bullets dont need so many sides [5 at the most, with so many bullets] you dont even actually have to make all 100 bullets, you only need to make the ones that are showing.

all this would probably knock off half the polys right there!

[EDIT:]
the bullets make up 2500 polys.
Click to expand...
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
thats about how much a regular gun should be if it is for HL2!
 
I am actually trying to learn to skin funnily enough. I'm to good at it though so I may scratch the idea. I tried skinning I glock 22 I made, have a look if you want.

Glock 22 Skinned

5 sides for the bullet? I'll remodel them and see how it looks. Just so you know I didnt make all 100 bullets, I only modelled the ones that are showing and the ones that will be seen when you open the loading cover.

Just so people know, if I put the gun ingame how it was (backfaces deleted) it would just mean the difference between 32 players and 33 players in a server (since the model is the roughly the same amount of polys for a character). It wouldn't make an awful lot of difference but since everyone is posting against this I will model a lower poly version.
 
(just a quick note: on the mod's page the info about the MP5 says 50 rounds)
 
that glock looks nice for a first skin. But it is WAY WAY to new and clean. Dirty it up. make it look used.
 
Recoil, someone else has already pointed this out. Thanks though. We haven't done anything about it because the a new site is being made as we speak so there will be many changes.

SidewinderX143, used and abused you say. Well, if and when I learn how to half skin properly I will fix it :D. By the way, I meant to say "I'm NOT too good at it".
 
HL1 (yes, one) can easily handle 10,000+ poly v_ models. There's little to no performance impact.
 
ok, but combine that with just as high poly vehicles, characters and the physics calculations in MP and youve got yourself one hell of a storm brewing :p
 
Malambis, using Milkshape 3D (the modelling program I use) the highest poly model including hands that I have been able to sub into HL1 ie CS (great for testing weapons with decent anims) is 3500 polys. MS3D wont let me compile models with more polys than this and since I dont know how to use 3ds to compile HL1 models would you be able to post a HL1 v_model that is 10000 polys or more to prove this???
 
Malambis said:
HL1 (yes, one) can easily handle 10,000+ poly v_ models. There's little to no performance impact.
Click to expand...


On a computer of 5-8 years ago? Wich is what ran HL1 when it came out.


I think not.
 
lol crabcakes, i was just thinking about that too. yes, to elaborate on what crab said...you are running CS now on a PC about 3-4 times the power of those that were running HL1 when it came out. in about 5 years from now, everybody should be able to run CS:S and HL2 like HL1 is run now, with absolutely no problems and with the highest graphics detail.
 
Ah, but if you think CS can be run NOW with 10,000 polys on an old engine, why wouldnt the new one be able to cope with this now and later on support 20,000 poly models (not that you'd need to)?
 
because now it can cope with 2000-3000. in a few years, 10,000 will be alright. And I'm not gonna say there's not a comp out there that can't handle a 10,000 poly gun. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say everyone witha p4>3.0Ghz or an A64/FX of somesort with an x800 or 6800 series video card will be able to handle that model perfectly fine.



But look at the hardware survey. Most people still have GF2 series video cards.
 
Malambis said:
Here's a link to a nearly 10,000 poly m4a1 for CS:
http://www.csnation.net/skins/view_skin.php?id=4747
As for compiling:
"Just seperate the model into multiple parts and use multiple $body in the .qc if you suspect the high polycount to be a reason"
Click to expand...

can you prove that this gun has as many polys as you say it does?

because i have this skin (its part of Fusion Pack SE final) and i dont lag one bit with it. (my computer is old)
 
SidewinderX143 said:
But look at the hardware survey. Most people still have GF2 series video cards.
Click to expand...

This concerns me. They are gonna seriously struggle to run HL2 on it's own.
 
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