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Sir Phoenixx said:It was murder, regardless of who he really is, he was shot after they caught him and had him pinned. It would have been completely different if they actually had any kind of evidence to suspect that he was dangerous and if he was shot while he was running away after being warned, even though he should have been detained as soon as he left his home.
The person who shot him should be charged with murder.
Erm... not all. The ones I heard said that he tripped and then was pushed over. And I've definately heard accounts that the police did warn him.Lobotomy Lobster said:For those wondering why he ran, he was from Brazil, which is considerably more dangerous than the UK. The instinct of most Brazilian city goers confronted by a group of men in plains clothes with guns would be (quite rightly) to run, which is exactly what he did.
Also, all of the witness accounts say the man was held down and shot at point blank range without any sort of verbal warning.
What the... Poor sense of humor? Is this all supposed to be a joke?Feath said:You've got a poor sense of humour. Murder? Are you kidding? What would you have done?
He ran past crowds of people, if he was a suicide bomber all he had to do was stop in the middle of a crowd, let the police catch up and detonate.Feath said:You've got a poor sense of humour. Murder? Are you kidding? What would you have done? Asked him nicely not to blow himself up? I know he wasn't a suicide bomber but what if he was. That's what the police have to deal with. If this Policeman is charged with murder maybe next time the armed policeman will not shoot at a suspicious guy running towards a tube full of people. And maybe next time it will be a suicide bomber and 10/20/30 people will die.
The guy wasn't being shot at while he was running, they had already caught him, pinned him on the ground, then they shot him after the assumed threat was over, they didn't shoot him as he was running away from them.Feath said:If this Policeman is charged with murder maybe next time the armed policeman will not shoot at a suspicious guy running towards a tube full of people. And maybe next time it will be a suicide bomber and 10/20/30 people will die.
I see the word "maybe" a lot, yeah officers should shoot everythime someone maybe a suicidebomber, even if the chance is 1/100. And especially of the guy wasn't a suspect, wasn't on any list of terrorist suspects, and only had a backpack. yeah everyone with a backpack that acts suspiciously should be shot. just to make sure. Cause tha chance that someone with a backpack who runs from armed unindentified men is a suicidebomber is great.Feath said:You've got a poor sense of humour. Murder? Are you kidding? What would you have done? Asked him nicely not to blow himself up? I know he wasn't a suicide bomber but what if he was. That's what the police have to deal with. If this Policeman is charged with murder maybe next time the armed policeman will not shoot at a suspicious guy running towards a tube full of people. And maybe next time it will be a suicide bomber and 10/20/30 people will die.
Sir Phoenixx said:What the... Poor sense of humor? Is this all supposed to be a joke?
I would have my rifle readied, and yell at him to stop or I'll shoot, and if he continues I'd fire a few shots into/in front of his legs. If it appeared that he was holding a detonator or something, or I could see his vest, or we knew he was carrying explosives, then I would go for the head. All of which would happen before he could get into the station or a large group of people.
Sir Phoenixx said:He ran past crowds of people, if he was a suicide bomber all he had to do was stop in the middle of a crowd, let the police catch up and detonate.
Sir Phoenixx said:The guy wasn't being shot at while he was running, they had already caught him, pinned him on the ground, then they shot him after the assumed threat was over, they didn't shoot him as he was running away from them.
No... The police shouldn't have to think about killing a suspect that could be innocent (which in this case, he was) after he's in custody.
"The man shot at the Stockwell subway station was identified as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him in the head and torso."
Grey Fox said:Cause tha chance that someone with a backpack who runs from armed unindentified men is a suicidebomber is great.
Grey Fox said:Well the reasons people think they shot him after they pinned him down is because the newsstations are reporting it:
Like I said, If I had any reason to believe he was carrying bombs or we could see them or detonators, etc. then he'd be dead before he could hit the ground.Feath said:That's not really a split second thing is it. By the time he's hit the ground he could've easily set off the bomb.
The bombers weren't being chased by several guys with guns before they got on the trains, they didn't have a reason to change their plan and pick a different target, like being killed before they could make it.Feath said:Not necessarily. The other bombers insisted on being on tube trains. You can't just say "Oh he's not stopping, he mustn't be a suicide bomber". What if his main aim is to blow up the train?
Of course they do. He asked me what I would have done.Oh, SirPhoenixx, I have a feeling that the police have much more experience and training for the situation than you do.
Grey Fox said:I see the word "maybe" a lot, yeah officers should shoot everythime someone maybe a suicidebomber, even if the chance is 1/100. And especially of the guy wasn't a suspect, wasn't on any list of terrorist suspects, and only had a backpack. yeah everyone with a backpack that acts suspiciously should be shot. just to make sure. Cause tha chance that someone with a backpack who runs from armed unindentified men is a suicidebomber is great.
If he wasn't a suspect, he wouldn't of been followed by armed police.
That's utter crap. They were shouting verbal warnings, pointing guns in a crowded area. I think it's pretty damned reasonable to expect people to stop when 3 men point pistols at them, and shout "stop, police!" while they give chase, the day after a major terrorist incident.
I'm glad that the police aren't going to pussyfoot around worrying about the self-presented target being an innocent in these situations, because the consequence of them being a suicide bomber, and they hit the target is in my eyes far worse than the chance that someone refuses to give in, and is killed as a result.
Oh, SirPhoenixx, I have a feeling that the police have much more experience and training for the situation than you do.
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Razor said:Laivasse, you already stated that the guy had tried to risk escape and evasion from the police, something an innocent man wouldn't do.
Grey Fox said:He was just suspect because he had a backack and behaved strangly, He wasn't on any list of terrorist suspects. So basicly they should shoot first and ask questions later every time soemone with a backpack act suspect.
Hey I guess strange men, pointing guns at you, and yelling that they are police will realy convince someone that they are cops and that he should stop. And the chance that someone who acts suspicoiously and has a backpack is a terrorist is so great that
they hsould definatly shoot, and if he survives shoot some more.
Edcrab said:I have heard one entirely unconfirmed report that this man reached for his jacket immediately after his fall, presumably to struggle out of it as the police gripped him or merely because he landed like that. It's quite possible they (understandably) got the wrong idea.
Razor said:But a normal person wouldn't turn and bolt at full sprint when confronted with armed people who shout "Police, Stop!!!" in the middle of a busy city centre.
'(the brazilian government) should not be angry alone.
...
If al-Qaeda has created an atmosphere in which an ordinary person can have five bullets pumped into him by the police, and society shrugs its shoulders, then the terrorists have already won a modest victory.'
Laivasse said:Get it through your head, he was a 'normal' person.
There is no such thing as a normal men, and if you say, normal is what the majority would do. Thne I'm still right, the majority oft he people would run whne chased by unindentified guys with guns, and especially to a place filled with a lot of witneses.Razor said:That is ridiculous, when living in Western society and it's broad daylight in the middle of London, anyone should turn round and immediately give themselves up. If the guys just happened to have thousands of pounds worth of gold jewellery, carrying uzis and start shouting in a dark alley, then i could understand. But a normal person wouldn't turn and bolt at full sprint when confronted with armed people who shout "Police, Stop!!!" in the middle of a busy city centre. Especially after a botched terrorist bombing the previous day.
...something an innocent man, wouldn't do? What was he, then, a suicide bomber? If you're trying to say he wasn't innocent then you're disagreeing with what the police, who shot him, are now saying.
Whether he believed they were the police or not is beside the point. The man was stupid to run, but if stupidity was a capital crime most of the people reading this would be dead or on the run.
What I am saying is that the police are massively incompetent, indiscreet, and showed disgustingly bad judgement.
They followed him all the way from his house without stopping him. The only thing that made them follow him was his big jacket and the fact that he had emerged from an estate (nice job narrowing it down, guys) which was under surveillance. Some of you are saying "ah, yeah, tough decision, still the police did what they had to do to neutralise what they thought was a threat." WRONG. He had already been on a bus while under police surveillance!!!!! and they didn't think it was worth shooting him then. On top of that, the police failed the moment they let him get into the station. Why is it these bombs are only assumed to be dangerous if detonated on trains?
They could have defused the situation much more professionally and without any loss of life if they had apprehended him long before he reached the Tube (or the bus ). 20 policeman chasing after the guy...that sounds like keystone cops. They did NOT do a good job in protecting innocent life (ie. other commuters), and they killed an innocent man into the bargain. It is pants.
It is also against the whole tone of London's response to the bombings. We said we wouldn't change our way of life...if we're letting the police shoot people based on appearance, and cock up like this, then we already have.
There is no such thing as a normal men, and if you say, normal is what the majority would do. Thne I'm still right, the majority oft he people would run whne chased by unindentified guys with guns, and especially to a place filled with a lot of witneses.
Edcrab said:My main point of contention is the surveillance operation leading up to the incident- mostly why the police are refusing to comment on it, or changing or retracting what little they have said. That tells me they're desperately trying to come up with an excuse that doesn't make them sound incompetent or heavy-handed.
Laivasse said:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1070-1707225,00.html <--I fully agree with this guy.
I don’t know about you, but if I found myself minding my own business on the São Paulo metro and was suddenly confronted by men wearing no uniforms but wielding weapons, screaming at me in Portuguese, I too might choose to bolt for it. It was not merely the police but their victim who had to make a split-second decision.
Lemonking said:jesus christ....I wonder what you guys would say if he was suicide bomber....
they told him to stop he ran away he didnt stop, so shoot to kill thats how it works
he should have known. thats how it is
Laivasse said:To derail everything just for a brief moment, I now feel even worse for the people who saw it happen. Knowing that the guy they saw shot really was just scared and not hyped with adrenaline on a bomb mission or something...that must make the memory into a nightmare.
Lemonking said:.......................................so you would rahter ask nicely "are you a suicide bomber"
fact:he ran way
thats reason enough to put a bullet to his head in times like these he didnt obey a direct order from a officer If he would have he prolly still be alive.