Man shot in London: not a terrorist

[jondy]

Get your dancing cow ass out of this thread.

 

[Sir Phoenixx]

It was murder, regardless of who he really is, he was shot after they caught him and had him pinned. It would have been completely different if they actually had any kind of evidence to suspect that he was dangerous and if he was shot while he was running away after being warned, even though he should have been detained as soon as he left his home.

The person who shot him should be charged with murder.

 

[Feath]

It was murder, regardless of who he really is, he was shot after they caught him and had him pinned. It would have been completely different if they actually had any kind of evidence to suspect that he was dangerous and if he was shot while he was running away after being warned, even though he should have been detained as soon as he left his home.

The person who shot him should be charged with murder.

You've got a poor sense of humour. Murder? Are you kidding? What would you have done? Asked him nicely not to blow himself up? I know he wasn't a suicide bomber but what if he was. That's what the police have to deal with. If this Policeman is charged with murder maybe next time the armed policeman will not shoot at a suspicious guy running towards a tube full of people. And maybe next time it will be a suicide bomber and 10/20/30 people will die.

 

[Feath]

For those wondering why he ran, he was from Brazil, which is considerably more dangerous than the UK. The instinct of most Brazilian city goers confronted by a group of men in plains clothes with guns would be (quite rightly) to run, which is exactly what he did.


Also, all of the witness accounts say the man was held down and shot at point blank range without any sort of verbal warning.

Erm... not all. The ones I heard said that he tripped and then was pushed over. And I've definately heard accounts that the police did warn him.

 

[Sir Phoenixx]

You've got a poor sense of humour. Murder? Are you kidding? What would you have done?

What the... Poor sense of humor? Is this all supposed to be a joke?

I would have my rifle readied, and yell at him to stop or I'll shoot, and if he continues I'd fire a few shots into/in front of his legs. If it appeared that he was holding a detonator or something, or I could see his vest, or we knew or suspected that he was carrying explosives, then I would have gone for his head. All of which would happen before he could get into the station or a large group of people.

You've got a poor sense of humour. Murder? Are you kidding? What would you have done? Asked him nicely not to blow himself up? I know he wasn't a suicide bomber but what if he was. That's what the police have to deal with. If this Policeman is charged with murder maybe next time the armed policeman will not shoot at a suspicious guy running towards a tube full of people. And maybe next time it will be a suicide bomber and 10/20/30 people will die.

He ran past crowds of people, if he was a suicide bomber all he had to do was stop in the middle of a crowd, let the police catch up and detonate.

If this Policeman is charged with murder maybe next time the armed policeman will not shoot at a suspicious guy running towards a tube full of people. And maybe next time it will be a suicide bomber and 10/20/30 people will die.

The guy wasn't being shot at while he was running, they had already caught him, pinned him on the ground, then they shot him after the assumed threat was over, they didn't shoot him as he was running away from them.

No... The police shouldn't have to think about killing a suspect that could be innocent (which in this case, he was) after he's in custody.

 

[Gray Fox]

You've got a poor sense of humour. Murder? Are you kidding? What would you have done? Asked him nicely not to blow himself up? I know he wasn't a suicide bomber but what if he was. That's what the police have to deal with. If this Policeman is charged with murder maybe next time the armed policeman will not shoot at a suspicious guy running towards a tube full of people. And maybe next time it will be a suicide bomber and 10/20/30 people will die.

I see the word "maybe" a lot, yeah officers should shoot everythime someone maybe a suicidebomber, even if the chance is 1/100. And especially of the guy wasn't a suspect, wasn't on any list of terrorist suspects, and only had a backpack. yeah everyone with a backpack that acts suspiciously should be shot. just to make sure. Cause tha chance that someone with a backpack who runs from armed unindentified men is a suicidebomber is great.

 

[MiccyNarc]

If you are living in London at a time like this, don't wear a thick winter coat and a backpack, don't jump the gates, and don't run from 20 people shouting for you to stop.
If you do the above, expect to be shot.

 

[Feath]

What the... Poor sense of humor? Is this all supposed to be a joke?

I would have my rifle readied, and yell at him to stop or I'll shoot, and if he continues I'd fire a few shots into/in front of his legs. If it appeared that he was holding a detonator or something, or I could see his vest, or we knew he was carrying explosives, then I would go for the head. All of which would happen before he could get into the station or a large group of people.

That's not really a split second thing is it. By the time he's hit the ground he could've easily set off the bomb.

He ran past crowds of people, if he was a suicide bomber all he had to do was stop in the middle of a crowd, let the police catch up and detonate.

Not necessarily. The other bombers insisted on being on tube trains. You can't just say "Oh he's not stopping, he mustn't be a suicide bomber". What if his main aim is to blow up the train?

The guy wasn't being shot at while he was running, they had already caught him, pinned him on the ground, then they shot him after the assumed threat was over, they didn't shoot him as he was running away from them.

No... The police shouldn't have to think about killing a suspect that could be innocent (which in this case, he was) after he's in custody.

He tripped and they half pushed him over. They didn't pin him down and just execute him. And I have no idea why people think they did.They probably didn't shoot him earlier in case they hit some people on the tube.

 

[Gray Fox]

Well the reasons people think they shot him after they pinned him down is because the newsstations are reporting it:

"The man shot at the Stockwell subway station was identified as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him in the head and torso."

 

[Kangy]

Cause tha chance that someone with a backpack who runs from armed unindentified men is a suicidebomber is great.

That's utter crap. They were shouting verbal warnings, pointing guns in a crowded area. I think it's pretty damned reasonable to expect people to stop when 3 men point pistols at them, and shout "stop, police!" while they give chase, the day after a major terrorist incident.

I'm glad that the police aren't going to pussyfoot around worrying about the self-presented target being an innocent in these situations, because the consequence of them being a suicide bomber, and they hit the target is in my eyes far worse than the chance that someone refuses to give in, and is killed as a result.

Oh, SirPhoenixx, I have a feeling that the police have much more experience and training for the situation than you do.

 

[Kangy]

Well the reasons people think they shot him after they pinned him down is because the newsstations are reporting it:

Good, the threat was removed immediately and nobody who wasn't the target could be hit by accident. The London Underground is packed. Very, very packed. Shooting off in there, there'd be 100% chance that missing the target would hit somebody else.

 

[Sir Phoenixx]

That's not really a split second thing is it. By the time he's hit the ground he could've easily set off the bomb.

Like I said, If I had any reason to believe he was carrying bombs or we could see them or detonators, etc. then he'd be dead before he could hit the ground.

Not necessarily. The other bombers insisted on being on tube trains. You can't just say "Oh he's not stopping, he mustn't be a suicide bomber". What if his main aim is to blow up the train?

The bombers weren't being chased by several guys with guns before they got on the trains, they didn't have a reason to change their plan and pick a different target, like being killed before they could make it.

Oh, SirPhoenixx, I have a feeling that the police have much more experience and training for the situation than you do.

Of course they do. He asked me what I would have done.

 

[Lemonking]

well at a time like this he should had stoped and not run away

 

[Razor]

I see the word "maybe" a lot, yeah officers should shoot everythime someone maybe a suicidebomber, even if the chance is 1/100. And especially of the guy wasn't a suspect, wasn't on any list of terrorist suspects, and only had a backpack. yeah everyone with a backpack that acts suspiciously should be shot. just to make sure. Cause tha chance that someone with a backpack who runs from armed unindentified men is a suicidebomber is great.

If he wasn't a suspect, he wouldn't of been followed by armed police.

 

[Gray Fox]

If he wasn't a suspect, he wouldn't of been followed by armed police.

He was just suspect because he had a backack and behaved strangly, He wasn't on any list of terrorist suspects. So basicly they should shoot first and ask questions later every time soemone with a backpack act suspect.

That's utter crap. They were shouting verbal warnings, pointing guns in a crowded area. I think it's pretty damned reasonable to expect people to stop when 3 men point pistols at them, and shout "stop, police!" while they give chase, the day after a major terrorist incident.

I'm glad that the police aren't going to pussyfoot around worrying about the self-presented target being an innocent in these situations, because the consequence of them being a suicide bomber, and they hit the target is in my eyes far worse than the chance that someone refuses to give in, and is killed as a result.

Oh, SirPhoenixx, I have a feeling that the police have much more experience and training for the situation than you do.
__________________

Hey I guess strange men, pointing guns at you, and yelling that they are police will realy convince someone that they are cops and that he should stop. And the chance that someone who acts suspicoiously and has a backpack is a terrorist is so great that
they hsould definatly shoot, and if he survives shoot some more.

 

[Lemonking]

fox u **** at times like these he shouldnt have behaved strangly he knew that the police was being more careful since the attacks and if you dont listen to a cop then youre ****ed its that easy.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Fox, the difference is he ran away, with those things suspicious of being a bomber, jumped the ticket barrier and went into the train. Put yourself in the cops and bystanders situation. If that had happened I'd be very sure he was going to detonate but I wouldn't want him to be able to prove me right. I don't know what was going through the guys head but it's a tragedy it happened, but it's explainable and the cops did the right thing given the situation that was happening.

 

[Laivasse]

I can see most people haven't read many of the articles regarding this incident, or my post either.

@Feath - yes, the man was pushed to the ground and shot in the head while being sat on.

Laivasse, you already stated that the guy had tried to risk escape and evasion from the police, something an innocent man wouldn't do.

...something an innocent man, wouldn't do? What was he, then, a suicide bomber? If you're trying to say he wasn't innocent then you're disagreeing with what the police, who shot him, are now saying.

Whether he believed they were the police or not is beside the point. The man was stupid to run, but if stupidity was a capital crime most of the people reading this would be dead or on the run.

What I am saying is that the police are massively incompetent, indiscreet, and showed disgustingly bad judgement.

They followed him all the way from his house without stopping him. The only thing that made them follow him was his big jacket and the fact that he had emerged from an estate (nice job narrowing it down, guys) which was under surveillance. Some of you are saying "ah, yeah, tough decision, still the police did what they had to do to neutralise what they thought was a threat." WRONG. He had already been on a bus while under police surveillance!!!!! and they didn't think it was worth shooting him then. On top of that, the police failed the moment they let him get into the station. Why is it these bombs are only assumed to be dangerous if detonated on trains?

They could have defused the situation much more professionally and without any loss of life if they had apprehended him long before he reached the Tube (or the bus ). 20 policeman chasing after the guy...that sounds like keystone cops. They did NOT do a good job in protecting innocent life (ie. other commuters), and they killed an innocent man into the bargain. It is pants.

It is also against the whole tone of London's response to the bombings. We said we wouldn't change our way of life...if we're letting the police shoot people based on appearance, and cock up like this, then we already have.

 

[Edcrab]

Sorry to butt in but despite reports to the contrary chances of a trio of armed men not being police officers in Britain are mircoscopically slim. It was daylight, the tube is CCTV covered, and thus far I've heard plenty of reports that they declared their identities.

I shouldn't comment until the inquest and the full confirmation of all details, but even though this is a horrible tragedy I can certainly see why it happened.

Do note that even though he was "pinned down", that may well be in reference to his restraining after a fall- and I'm led to believe that Krato's rulings direct officers to fire if a suspect is giving especially strong resistance.

I have heard one entirely unconfirmed report that this man reached for his jacket immediately after his fall, presumably to struggle out of it as the police gripped him or merely because he landed like that. It's quite possible they (understandably) got the wrong idea.

 

[Razor]

He was just suspect because he had a backack and behaved strangly, He wasn't on any list of terrorist suspects. So basicly they should shoot first and ask questions later every time soemone with a backpack act suspect.



Hey I guess strange men, pointing guns at you, and yelling that they are police will realy convince someone that they are cops and that he should stop. And the chance that someone who acts suspicoiously and has a backpack is a terrorist is so great that
they hsould definatly shoot, and if he survives shoot some more.

That is ridiculous, when living in Western society and it's broad daylight in the middle of London, anyone should turn round and immediately give themselves up. If the guys just happened to have thousands of pounds worth of gold jewellery, carrying uzis and start shouting in a dark alley, then i could understand. But a normal person wouldn't turn and bolt at full sprint when confronted with armed people who shout "Police, Stop!!!" in the middle of a busy city centre. Especially after a botched terrorist bombing the previous day.

 

[Laivasse]

I have heard one entirely unconfirmed report that this man reached for his jacket immediately after his fall, presumably to struggle out of it as the police gripped him or merely because he landed like that. It's quite possible they (understandably) got the wrong idea.

There were also unconfirmed reports that the guy had wires protruding out of him. I put both of these down to imagination and fear. Especially since he had nothing in his jacket to detonate.

But a normal person wouldn't turn and bolt at full sprint when confronted with armed people who shout "Police, Stop!!!" in the middle of a busy city centre.

Get it through your head, he was a 'normal' person. Also, from what I have read it seems that he started to run when he noticed he was being followed, not when he was challenged which appears to have happened afterwards (again, this is from what I have read - considering how confused most of these reports have been, anything is possible).

'(the brazilian government) should not be angry alone.
...
If al-Qaeda has created an atmosphere in which an ordinary person can have five bullets pumped into him by the police, and society shrugs its shoulders, then the terrorists have already won a modest victory.'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1070-1707225,00.html <--I fully agree with this guy.

(this article also contains some facts which correct many versions of the story, including my own)

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Could've been drawstrings depending on the type of coat. I can imagine the whole thing going down from both perspectives (fleeing guy and police) and it's just a bad deal.

 

[Edcrab]

Don't get me wrong Laivasse- I'm fully aware that he was an "ordinary" person- there's no denying he was just a civillian- and I'll be the first to back up and change my opinion when more information is made available regarding the officers' actions.

But the fact remains that he didn't act normally- he jumped the barrier and continued on his way despite the police presence. Regrettably he panicked and made a bad choice, and arguably the police did to, but it was a decision that had to be made.

 

[Murray_H]

Get it through your head, he was a 'normal' person.

When Razor says that, I think he means that although we now know he was 'normal', his behaviour at the time could have been considered 'abnormal'

 

[Gray Fox]

That is ridiculous, when living in Western society and it's broad daylight in the middle of London, anyone should turn round and immediately give themselves up. If the guys just happened to have thousands of pounds worth of gold jewellery, carrying uzis and start shouting in a dark alley, then i could understand. But a normal person wouldn't turn and bolt at full sprint when confronted with armed people who shout "Police, Stop!!!" in the middle of a busy city centre. Especially after a botched terrorist bombing the previous day.

There is no such thing as a normal men, and if you say, normal is what the majority would do. Thne I'm still right, the majority oft he people would run whne chased by unindentified guys with guns, and especially to a place filled with a lot of witneses.

And even after all that this is still true:

...something an innocent man, wouldn't do? What was he, then, a suicide bomber? If you're trying to say he wasn't innocent then you're disagreeing with what the police, who shot him, are now saying.

Whether he believed they were the police or not is beside the point. The man was stupid to run, but if stupidity was a capital crime most of the people reading this would be dead or on the run.

What I am saying is that the police are massively incompetent, indiscreet, and showed disgustingly bad judgement.

They followed him all the way from his house without stopping him. The only thing that made them follow him was his big jacket and the fact that he had emerged from an estate (nice job narrowing it down, guys) which was under surveillance. Some of you are saying "ah, yeah, tough decision, still the police did what they had to do to neutralise what they thought was a threat." WRONG. He had already been on a bus while under police surveillance!!!!! and they didn't think it was worth shooting him then. On top of that, the police failed the moment they let him get into the station. Why is it these bombs are only assumed to be dangerous if detonated on trains?

They could have defused the situation much more professionally and without any loss of life if they had apprehended him long before he reached the Tube (or the bus ). 20 policeman chasing after the guy...that sounds like keystone cops. They did NOT do a good job in protecting innocent life (ie. other commuters), and they killed an innocent man into the bargain. It is pants.

It is also against the whole tone of London's response to the bombings. We said we wouldn't change our way of life...if we're letting the police shoot people based on appearance, and cock up like this, then we already have.

 

[Laivasse]

Everyone act a bit irrationally sometimes, most of us don't end up dead as a result.

None of this speculation on Menezes behaviour answers the point on why the police considered him such a terrible threat when they had been perfectly happy letting him ride a bus. Why also wait for him to enter the station? The police know the area, they can take a pretty good guess where he's going from his direction. If you suspect him of being a bomber, *DON'T* let him into the station.

I just fundamentally disagree with this attitude that the police did all they could, them's the breaks, it was a tough decision, etc...the reported facts make it all seem much more shoddy than that. You also have the fact that the police are acting in obvious bad faith by pretending (and hoping) they had a direct link between him and the bombers, and by taking ages to let it be known that he had NO explosives on his person.

There is no such thing as a normal men, and if you say, normal is what the majority would do. Thne I'm still right, the majority oft he people would run whne chased by unindentified guys with guns, and especially to a place filled with a lot of witneses.

I know normal is subjective, which is why I did 'this' to it. But that subjectivity is exactly why you can't just take Menezes and say "tch, poor guy...maniac, a tragedy, but never mind" because noone can accurately predict what they will do in such a high pressure situation.

 

[Edcrab]

As I say, I don't know what's really happened, so I'm only commenting on a particular portion of the speculation and vague police statements- but for the record, yes, I probably would flee armed men, but not armed men who declared themselves to be police officers in a crowded public area soon after a terrorist atrocity.

My main point of contention is the surveillance operation leading up to the incident- mostly why the police are refusing to comment on it, or changing or retracting what little they have said. That tells me they're desperately trying to come up with an excuse that doesn't make them sound incompetent or heavy-handed.

So, as I say, it seems both a civillian and the law enforcers screwed up here. But who's got the bigger responsibility?

 

[Razor]

My main point of contention is the surveillance operation leading up to the incident- mostly why the police are refusing to comment on it, or changing or retracting what little they have said. That tells me they're desperately trying to come up with an excuse that doesn't make them sound incompetent or heavy-handed.

Or carrying out the investigations in secret to not tip off terrorists perhaps?

We all seem to be speculating on unknowns but how many of us would act any differently under the circumstances. And what if the news had been that a suicide bomber had gone onto the train, the armed police hesitated and allowed the bomber to blow him and 20 other people up? Would you say that it was right for the police to hesitate just because it might not of been a bomber but it was?

Yes, he should of been apprehended earlier, but from whatever reason he wasn't. He was challenged and he made a run for it, for whatever reason, he ran, the police construed this as being a potential threat to the public and gave chase and "neutralised" him. It was just a terrible accident that wouldn't have happened if he hadn't run from the police or if he had been challenged at the beginning of his journey when he left his flat.

 

[Absinthe]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1070-1707225,00.html <--I fully agree with this guy.

Same. I was in agreement with everything that he said.

The excuses need to be stopped. This is a tragedy and you can't brush it off with "well, it was acceptable because of blah blah blah". These what-if scenarios consisting of him actually being a suicide bomber are pointless. He obviously wasn't and it's clear that some people did a piss-poor job of surveillance. Everything about this reeks of a cockup.

 

[Razor]

I don’t know about you, but if I found myself minding my own business on the São Paulo metro and was suddenly confronted by men wearing no uniforms but wielding weapons, screaming at me in Portuguese, I too might choose to bolt for it. It was not merely the police but their victim who had to make a split-second decision.

He had been living in Britain for 3 years so would of had a good understanding of the English language, enough to know words like "Police" and "Stop". This is just a dreadful accident and nothing more, the police should of stopped him earlier and he shouldn't of run for it when challenged by armed police.

 

[Laivasse]

To derail everything just for a brief moment, I now feel even worse for the people who saw it happen. Knowing that the guy they saw shot really was just scared and not hyped with adrenaline on a bomb mission or something...that must make the memory into a nightmare.

 

[Lemonking]

jesus christ....I wonder what you guys would say if he was suicide bomber....
they told him to stop he ran away he didnt stop, so shoot to kill thats how it works
he should have known. thats how it is

 

[Laivasse]

jesus christ....I wonder what you guys would say if he was suicide bomber....
they told him to stop he ran away he didnt stop, so shoot to kill thats how it works
he should have known. thats how it is

If he had been a suicide bomber I would be wondering why the hell the police let him get on and off a bus unchallenged. I would be wondering how the hell they got so lucky in the first place, in finding a suicide bomber by just following a big-jacketed man whom they had no leads on whatsoever. And I would be wondering why they didn't stop him before he reached the station.

If he had been a suicide bomber he could have detonated at any time, including the split second he had before they sat on him inside the train - yet he didn't, because he wasn't.

 

[Razor]

To derail everything just for a brief moment, I now feel even worse for the people who saw it happen. Knowing that the guy they saw shot really was just scared and not hyped with adrenaline on a bomb mission or something...that must make the memory into a nightmare.

Definately and also for his family as well .

 

[Lemonking]

.......................................so you would rahter ask nicely "are you a suicide bomber"
fact:he ran way
thats reason enough to put a bullet to his head in times like these he didnt obey a direct order from a officer If he would have he prolly still be alive.

 

[Absinthe]

.......................................so you would rahter ask nicely "are you a suicide bomber"

Are you capable of being any more ****ing ridiculous, mate?

fact:he ran way
thats reason enough to put a bullet to his head in times like these he didnt obey a direct order from a officer If he would have he prolly still be alive.

Fact: They kept an absurdly long leash on a suspected suicide bomber
Fact: A large group of armed and plainclothed people are intimidating and can induce a panic.
Fact: An innocent man (read: NOT A SUICIDE BOMBER) was killed for having a big coat.

"Times like these" doesn't cut it, seeing as how they handled the situation terribly. Again, this is not acceptable. Understandable, but not acceptable.

 

[kirovman]

Also this is the kind of thing the terrorists are gleefully happy about...they've succeeded in making our police force like a bunch of headless chickens who shoot at randoms.

We tell the terrorists that they will not win, that we will not change our way of life, then something like this happens. The terrorists will be awfully happy about this blunder, and may be inspired into do more attacks, since they will believe the police don't know their elbows from their arse.

 

[HunterSeeker]

While it was stupid to run, it was even worse for the police to let get on a buss and only try to stop him when got to a crowded train station.

IMHO the one who shot him should be charged with mansloughter or misconduct (if that is the proper translation).

 

[kirovman]

It appears the guy was on an out-of-date student visa. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713651.stm

That probably explains why he ran.

 

[Lemonking]

well then its kinda hes fault......