Martial Arts

[Dog--]

Ok, so I just realized that I start school in 5 days, and have literally done nothing with my summer. If you took out the entire summer from my memory, I wouldn't be missing out on ANYTHING. NOTHING interesting happened around/to me.

So I got to thinking - "I need something to occupy myself, something fun and useful.." I was wracking my brain trying to think of something, and, as you can guess, I thought of Martial Arts.

First of all. How physically fit do you need to be? I'm not super skinny, nor am I fat, if you looked at me you'd think I have more muscle mass then the average 16 year old (it's just look, though, I'm actually not very strong, but I've been told I look so, though), obviously you need some sort of muscle to fight, but you also can't be too muscle-y (can you?). There's also the fact of limberness (Idk if that's the word I'm looking for), like flexibility.

Second. Is it really what I might think it is? (Think of what the average person thinks of Martial Arts, and then add the fact I've researched a few different styles on the net..).

Third. What would be the best style to choose? I think I have a pretty good idea on what I want, however I'm not sure it'll be what I think.

I'm leaning towards Judo, it seems to me that it has the least pain infliction on an enemy of most Martial Arts (I'd rather stop someone from fighting me, rather then bloody them up to hell for legal reasons as well as moral (I don't want to knock someones teeth out, resulting in a blood-bath , I'd rather put them unconscious for a while, to end the fight quickly - But that's only if I ever get into a fight (I don't get into fights often, maybe like once a semester), but it has very quick incapacitating techniques. I also like that fact that it's holds/chokes/grapples/etc, so when you put a move on someone, it looks like you'd have the most control of all the other styles of Martial Arts..


I'm pretty sure there are a few Martial Artists on the site, so help me!


BTW, I don't want to use weapons or anything like that, only my bare hands

Thanks for the help!

 

[Dan]

Dragon style sounds pretty cool. But the winner of death matches always has some secret unheard of style like butterfly technique.

 

[Laivasse]

I don't know much about martial arts, but aikido is also good for quick, incapacitating techniques. Also judging from the people I've known who do aikido, physique is not really a factor.

 

[Uriel]

Brazilian Jujitsu or Sambo.

Those are the most dominant fighting styles in Pride fighting and the UFC.

I would LOVE to take any martial art classes. Wrestling is a good one too. That will lay the foundation for martial arts.

 

[Azner]

҉
Akkido is much of retreating, then advancing, while looking for enemys weakspots. not much fun, but proven useful

 

[Danimal]

I personally practice the burmese martial art of Arakan, not that it really helps this thread.

Hmm...

 

[<RJMC>]

I practique the horney monkey style

is basically that you start to wave your hands and make weirds noise like a monkey and that makes the contrincant to run away,oh yeah salivating is important too,and if the enemy dont run them charge at him whit everything cuz you will punch it in some way or another

 

[bam23]

Muay Thai. Simple, effective, and practical (you'll most likely knock someone's teeth out though). Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is good too.

I wouldn't take any of the fancy stuff that require you to do 50 different steps before something actually happens.

 

[kineaesth]

Aikido's alot of fun, depending how it's taught. It's got potential to be devestating (breaking arms, backs, whatever) or else reasonably civil (pins, bars locks.) I learn it, and it's choice.

 

[co05]

Judo. It's all about using the other guy's size and momentum against him. A lot of the moves in judo revolve around getting proper leverage on the guy.

 

[Bad^Hat]

One tip - don't take Seido Karate. Boring. As. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. The only cool thing I learned the whole time was how to twist a guys arm around and stab him with his own knife, and that was "unofficially" from some cool instructor on a camp. Plus it's not like I'm ever going to be able to use it...

Oh, and it takes about 3 times as long to move up through the belts compared to your average style. Not only that, but my teachers actually ADDED IN a couple a belts to slow our advancement for some retarded reason. Seriously. Just made 'em up. We went from white belt to NEON ****ING GREEN belt. Way to rub in our noobness.

 

[Stigmata]

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I've never taken a martial art but that one looks like the most fun

 

[Jintor]

Don't take Taekwandoe. I've been doing it for years and only recently realised how completely useless it is. *rubs shoulder*

I'm going to try Muai Tai or Capeoerra soon.

If I could, I'd do Drunken Boxing.

 

[Griz]

If you're looking for an art with grapples/chokes/holds etc then like most others have said you'd want to do jiu-jitsu.

I recently took up a Korean form of Karate called Soo Bahk Do (similar to Tang Soo Do) and reckon it's one of the best things i've ever done. I've only been training for 5 weeks or so but i already notice a big difference in my health, fitness and strength.

Good luck with it!

 

[Cormeh]

Before even thinking about which one to study, please take a while to think of martial art as a discipline and not just a form of exercise.

Fair point, it's a social activity that keeps you fit and alert, but so many people take them up only to pack them in after a few months or a couple of short years.

Whichever one you decide to study, it's also a good way to tap into cultural history and influences. I stopped studying karate because so many people were only interested in winning trophies and how physically impressive they were (I can kick THIS high, I can finish a kata THIS quick etc).

So yeah, I'd encourage you to take up martial arts, but don't start for the wrong reasons.

 

[Jintor]

If I could, I'd learn Southern Praying Mantis Style.

Anyone guess why?

 

[Warbie]

My dad's a martial arts nut. He taught Judo and Jujutsu for years and now - he's 60 and his knees are a bit knacky - he does Aikido and Iaidō. Iaidō is actually very cool. It translates roughly as "the way of mental presence and immediate reaction" and is the art of smooth, controlled movements of drawing the sword from its scabbard, striking or cutting an opponent, removing blood from the blade, and then replacing the sword in the scabbard (taken from Wiki). Essentially, sequences of precise cuts, perfect form and focussing the mind. If your elbow is a little bent, or the tip of the blade an inch below where it should be after a cut, you fail. Training involes learning kata - basically sequences of movements and cuts/blocks for different situations (where Equilibrium got its Gun Kata from) - and looks awesome. One might involve you kneeling on the floor - meditating or something - and 3 guys attack you from behind. The sequence will begin with drawing the sword, various killing/mainimg cuts and putting it away again, and is over in seconds. The aim is to practise untill movement becomes instinctual, which is why Samurai were such badasses. There was no hesitation or fear - if 5 guys attack, he'll be striking within a fraction of a second without thought, moving and cutting in the most deadly and efficient way to chop them into little chunks. Our bathroom is full of books recounting such encounters - lone Samurai taking out multiple opponents in a moment.

This meant that me and my brother grew up with and got to play with every known Japanese weapon (when we played Ninja Turtles we had the real stuff - much to my mum's horror) - but it also sucked in that we were dong martial arts 3 times a week from the age of 8 untill we were deemed capable of making our own decisions, which was 15-16 (cue mid-teen, knee-jerk reaction into stoner games playing bum). So, Judo twice a week and Jujutsu in between - with the odd Karate/Aikido lesson thrown in for 'fun'. Great, but too hardcore. Of these matial arts, by far the most enjoyable and useful is generally perceived as the least cool. Judo. There's no punching air or hitting pads - you fight. You learn to take people down and keep them there, to break their arms, wrists, to choke them. And, as you're actually grappling with people, it's much better exercise. A 3 min Judo fight is unbelievably tiring when fighting someone who knows what to do and seriously wants to win - 3 sets of tennis or a football match is easier. You will get very fit.

If you watch UFC you'll notice that the most common and devastating art used is Jujutsu, which is basically Judo with strikes (karate) introduced. The elements that win fights are most often those that Judo focuses on. Strikes end things, but it's the getting your opponent down and ground work that is usually the key. Of course, locks and strangles also win many fights, and these are both firmly in Judo territory. In my experience, many Jujutsu schools neglect these most import elements, focussing too much on the striking (cool) side of things. In various classes I attended over the years it was always those practised in Judo who were by far the better fighters. The kids that only did Jujutsu were, quite frankly, rubbish as soon as the fight went to ground - which was very quick because they didn't know Judo.

This has turned into a huge ramble. If you're after suggestions I can't recommend Judo enough - it's the most fun, the best exercise and provides an awesome foundation that will considerably strengthen any martial art you may take at a later date. My brother is heavily into Kung Fu these days, but often mentions how he wouldn't be half as good if it wasn't for Judo. Another would be Aikido, which is so elegant and devasting. Tiny twists and adjusments of balance sending people tumbling to the ground and snapping joints. Someone practised in Judo and Aikido is quite simply hard as nails. Strikes are the easy part, anybody can pick them up, it's the rest you need to be a nasty ****.

 

[AKIRA]

don't join karate. It's really boring and out-dated. I spent 6 years in karate only to get my black belt and realized it wasn't useful lol.

If you really want to be a guy that NO ONE wants to **** around with, then please, i URGE you to take the following martial art styles: ju-jitsu (sp?!) and muay-thai.

ju-jitsu will help you with your ground fighting, and muay-thai will help your stand up game.

 

[Dog--]

don't join karate. It's really boring and out-dated. I spent 6 years in karate only to get my black belt and realized it wasn't useful lol.

It's useful, just strangle someone with it.

I never intended on taking Karate, for the reasons you said. It's too out-dated and too commercial.

 

[Kevin]

Though Capoeria has to be the coolest fighting form you have ever seen.

But it's hard as hell.

 

[Dog--]

This has turned into a huge ramble. If you're after suggestions I can't recommend Judo enough - it's the most fun, the best exercise and provides an awesome foundation that will considerably strengthen any martial art you may take at a later date. My brother is heavily into Kung Fu these days, but often mentions how he wouldn't be half as good if it wasn't for Judo. Another would be Aikido, which is so elegant and devasting. Tiny twists and adjusments of balance sending people tumbling to the ground and snapping joints. Someone practised in Judo and Aikido is quite simply hard as nails. Strikes are the easy part, anybody can pick them up, it's the rest you need to be a nasty ****.

Ok, so I can understand your recommending Judo first, then Aikido. But what I don't understand is the actual fighting. I know Judo is grapples, chokes and throws. Shouldn't that be enough? I mean, do you HAVE to fight with strikes? I'm not trying to fight you on your argument, but I intend to take this seriously, and don't want to take Judo only to realize later that it's useless without Aikido.. Although I'm not opposed to taking Aikido after Judo.

In Judo don't you learn how to counter punches? (think like getting mugged with a knife-guy, how would you fare against him?)

Also - What is Jiu-Jitsu? Is it Judo with strikes added or something? Because I'd have to drive for 45 minutes a lesson to take Judo, but I've got a Martial Arts Center in my town that teaches Karate, Jiu-Jitsu, Kendo, Iai-Do, and Kickboxing, which is only like a 10 minute drive.

 

[Uriel]

Do everything this man does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedor_Emelianenko

 

[<RJMC>]

or fight whit bears,sure that will help,just try to not get killed

 

[Kevin]

Before you can fight bears, your CQC level has to be 12+.
Start off easy with lvl 3 muggers.

 

[Godron]

Before you can fight bears, your CQC level has to be 12+.
Start off easy with lvl 3 muggers.

Oh. I thought he meant throwing bears at people or something. Tch.

 

[function9]

If I could, I'd learn Southern Praying Mantis Style.

Anyone guess why?

You like pretending to be a giant bug?

I don't know if he was serious with this video or what, but there's some pretty funny lines in it:
[YOUTUBE]http://youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Polaris]

Krav Maga (Israeli CQC technique) is very good, much better than Taekwandoe.

 

[Warbie]

Ok, so I can understand your recommending Judo first, then Aikido.

I wasn't suggesting taking both - one martial art is enough for anyone - just that Aikido, being so subtle and centered on focus, would be a great supplement if ever you were looking for one.

Judo certainly isn't useless without Aikido, either. Far from it. If you're looking for something to take up as a sport or hobby, something to keep you fit and to teach you how to handle yourself in a fight, then i'd pick Judo without hesitation.

Shouldn't that be enough?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Judo is the art I enjoyed the most out of Judo, Karate and Jujitsu because it's a martial art that is also practised as a sport. This a key difference. Unlike the others, you actually get to fight/play. You don't get to 'play' Jujitsu because that would involve severly injuring/killing someone. It's pretending, just as it is with Karate, Kung Fu, and all the others. The weapons are plastic and the punches stop inches from your face.

However, this isn't the case if you take things into the ring - but is that something you intend to do? It's easy to watch UFC and think Jujitsu is the martial art of choice, but if you don't take it to the level of full contact (which a very tiny percentage of people do) then it doesn't prepare you nearly as well as Judo does. Even if you do take it to that level - the most valuable skills you have will be the Judo side of Jujitsu.

In Judo don't you learn how to counter punches? (think like getting mugged with a knife-guy, how would you fare against him?)

Nope, it doesn't go into striking. There's no attacking with rubber knives or learning how to block. It will teach you how to carry yourself in a fight, balance, how to fall, how to throw people, locks, chokes and groundwork. The big advantage is that you will be practised in fighting with someone 1 on 1. Do Judo for a number of years and you will have had 1000's of fights. If you choose to enter tournaments, they will be serious and at a high level.

Also - What is Jiu-Jitsu? Is it Judo with strikes added or something?

Pretty much. It's basically Judo with strikes (karate) introduced and adressses more real world situations. A guy tries to punch you in the face, you step aside, block, throw him to the floor, snap his arm and punch him in the face. It is, imo, the most complete martial art.

My problem with Jujitsu was that a good deal of time was dedicated to punching air/learning kata - moving up and down the room stringing predetermined sequences of punches, kicks and blocks together (boring shit) - and the lack of actual fighting. When we did get to fight it was minues strikes (so basically Judo) and at a poor level. So much so that at 17, me and a few friends from Judo were kicking the asses of every guy in our Jujitsu lessons, some of who were black belts. They simply had very little fighting experience where as we had been doing it for 10 years. It could be argued that the outcome would have been different had they been allowed to strike, but I disagree and still maintain that strikes and blocks are the easy side of things and quick to pick up. Infact, Jujitsu focusses away from striking and on taking your opponent down to grappling/locks (Judo territory) very quickly. Their intention was to get us into groundwork - they were just crap at it. (This isn't a boast about being tough btw, just that these guys reached black belt in Jujitsu without being much use. The same can be said for those 12 year kids you see with black belts in Karate who are only adapt in kicking thin air)

The most important part is that you find a good school - they vary tremendously - and find a martial art you enjoy. My brother loves Kung Fu - there's no fighting, but the level of physical exercise involved is insane. He's completely ripped from head to toe from sparing and leaping around like a loony and loves kicking/punching bags. I haven't done anything in 10 years now and am thinking about Aikido or going back to Judo.


Wow, this is a quotetastic reply of 'Stern-like' proportions

 

[Dog--]

@ Warbie - So I should pick Judo because:

- You practice kicking ass in a dojo (that's what the places are called, right?), but that practice can be applied to a real fight, unlike Karate, where you're punching air, and not practicing on an actual person. Like if someone just came up and punched me, I'd be able to fight back using Judo, rather then doing shitty because I punch "inches from someones face" like in Karate?

- Gets you physically fit quicker then most.

- Gives you more control/coordination.


Is Judo a super martial art, or something? I have to tell you, I could care less if I don't know how to punch someone, as long as I can defend myself from attacks, like by throwing them, sleeper hold (ha), etc..

I think I may have found a place in my town, it's a Judo Club, though (do clubs teach, or is it just a fan-thing?).

 

[xcellerate]

just watch Human Weapon on the history channel, they had a cool episode on today Krav Maga which was pretty cool...


http://www.history.com/minisite.do?...lay_order=5&sub_display_order=9&mini_id=54986

The muay thai one was pretty sweet too, especially once they got to that version they taught out in the woods with the guys all dressed in black...that was pretty intense.

 

[Dog--]

No offense, but I doubt I'll ever learn it, xcellerate. I'm sort of limited on what I can learn by my area, I'm still not even sure I can learn Judo in my area, the only thing worth learning that is a confirmed place in my area is Jiu Jitsu.

EDIT: Does anyone know how much it costs if you take like 2 lessons a week? (average)

 

[Kula Meenur]

Generally; the fitter you are, the faster you will progress in your training and the more developed your body and mind will get over time. Typically, if you are not fit or your body is not well developed at the time of your training, then it will improve as your training progresses, until it finds it's norm. It is better to be fit when training, rather than not.

but you also can't be too muscle-y

Not true. Saying this with a little bit of pride, I am built like a brick wall, yet i can still out-manouvre some of the more nimble and experienced talents whilst sparring and in the ring. This is because i work out my body, and i also do calisthenics. If you are fit muscle mass has nothing to do with manouvrebility, and it is better to be stronger than not. This is purely a fact of the form. Although always remember when training no matter the style you take, your training and dedication to your own personal martial form will see you through most conflicts, not your physical strength. All you have to do is master technique and knowledge of your body mechanics before you worry about muscle mass. And also remember that most people who like to show off their muscles aren't physically fit, and probably wont last a fifty metre run. Flexibility and poise and knowing how to use your muscle mass will come with your training, most of which you will learn and relearn time and time again on the street.

Second[/B]. Is it really what I might think it is? (Think of what the average person thinks of Martial Arts, and then add the fact I've researched a few different styles on the net...

Don't have any doubts. Obviously you have researched what you would like to do, kudos mate. Don't take anyone's opinion on the subject until you have tried it yourself, even though i am contradicting myself by saying this, you can only actually grasp your own view by doing it yourself. Knowing a martial art form is a wonderful thing, don't let anyone tell you any different.

I'm leaning towards Judo, it seems to me that it has the least pain infliction on an enemy of most Martial Arts (I'd rather stop someone from fighting me, rather then bloody them up to hell for legal reasons as well as moral (I don't want to knock someones teeth out, resulting in a blood-bath , I'd rather put them unconscious for a while, to end the fight quickly - But that's only if I ever get into a fight (I don't get into fights often, maybe like once a semester), but it has very quick incapacitating techniques. I also like that fact that it's holds/chokes/grapples/etc, so when you put a move on someone, it looks like you'd have the most control of all the other styles of Martial Arts..

Make you're own choice on your own personal style, you'll pick up different things here and there depending on what form you take and then you'll be able to branch off into different things. Basic judo kyan is a good starting point, through which you will probably learn a lot about yourself, not only physically and mentally.
Concerning body mutilation P) you can't help doing somethings sometimes and its a fact of life which runs way back to the days of the apes ie: you're challenged by someone so you **** them over. Simple as that.
If you're training to knock someone's teeth in on purpose, which i know you are not, then you are doing it for the wrong reasons. Most that train to do so forget their training in the first milliseconds of a conflict and when they go for it, they get the shit kicked through them and it looks bad. Bearing that in mind, it is sometimes gratifying to put two into a opponent and see them fall apart. With your training depending on what you do and for how long you do it, you will be able to not only defend yourself but make sure that anyone who crosses you will be driven into the ground. It's a good skill to have, and it is one that will stick with you through thick and thin. Sparing a melodramatic statement, you never forget.

Good luck in your endevours and stick with your training. I look forward in hearing more of your training, and what particular style you go for. Even if you can't get near to any real area do try it is a wonderful skill to have.

Though Capoeria has to be the coolest fighting form you have ever seen.

But it's hard as hell.

Yeah, i know a couple of guys who are active. Should see them move its ****ing quick and they hurt like ****

 

[Warbie]

- You practice kicking ass in a dojo (that's what the places are called, right?), but that practice can be applied to a real fight, unlike Karate, where you're punching air, and not practicing on an actual person. Like if someone just came up and punched me, I'd be able to fight back using Judo, rather then doing shitty because I punch "inches from someones face" like in Karate?

- Gets you physically fit quicker then most.

- Gives you more control/coordination.

Pretty much. Think of it more as a sport than learning to kick ass, like boxing. It can easily be applied to defending yourself. As for blocking and punching, we can all do that already to a limited degree. There's nothing stopping you attend the odd karate/Jujitsu lesson some time in the future if you want a practise stikes/blocks.

Dojo is the right word, expect to learn some more. The ref will be using Japanese in fights and you'll be expected to know the name of each throw/hold/lock/strangle as well as objects common to Judo (suit, mat, bow etc) in Japanese too. Don't let this deter you, you don't need to learn how to construct or understand sentences, just single words (like start, stop etc).

Is Judo a super martial art, or something? I have to tell you, I could care less if I don't know how to punch someone, as long as I can defend myself from attacks, like by throwing them, sleeper hold (ha), etc..

I dunno about 'super martial art', it's certainly a good one that's less contrived and more grounded in reality than the others i've tried.

When it comes to real fights - i've been in just 2 in 29 years - I think it's most important to be mentally prepared and to not get phased. These fights nearly always degenerate into rolling about on the floor and Judo prepares you well for this. It prepares you for how physical fighting actually is - the proximity of your opponent, their weight and stregnth - and as a result it will be familiar and you'll know how to react to a greater extent than if you studied Karate or Jujitsu. It also teaches you how to fight people with clothes on. Don't underestimate how important this can be - clothes can be grabbed and limbs locked down. They're used to throw people, put them off balance and to strangle. I'd much rather fight someone, for example, if they were wearing a jaket than just a t-shirt. Again, this is something that Judo teaches you that many arts barely even touch on.

I think I may have found a place in my town, it's a Judo Club, though (do clubs teach, or is it just a fan-thing?).

Judo clubs teach Judo Give it shot, what's thw worst that can happen? Don't expect to learn chokes and locks straight away - we weren't allowed to even practise them at my school untill reaching green (3rd) belt - and make sure you're having fun

 

[MiccyNarc]

Nothing wrong with karate, you just have to find the right school. I went to one of the best schools in the country, got to green belt level before I went to school, and trust me, I can kick more than my fair share of ass.

 

[Dog--]

As for blocking and punching, we can all do that already to a limited degree. There's nothing stopping you attend the odd karate/Jujitsu lesson some time in the future if you want a practise stikes/blocks.

These fights nearly always degenerate into rolling about on the floor and Judo prepares you well for this.

So, in a fist fight - I lose? tbh, most fights in my school/town are fist-fights, not grab+roll fights.

Dojo is the right word, expect to learn some more. The ref will be using Japanese in fights and you'll be expected to know the name of each throw/hold/lock/strangle as well as objects common to Judo (suit, mat, bow etc) in Japanese too. Don't let this deter you, you don't need to learn how to construct or understand sentences, just single words (like start, stop etc).

Is it easy? Does it come naturally? Like if your interested in computers you know most numbers for GFX cards, and know what RAM is and all that, is it the same thing?

When it comes to real fights - i've been in just 2 in 29 years

How'd you do using Judo?

I think it's most important to be mentally prepared and to not get phased.

tbh, I think I'm a pretty relaxed person, even when I know something like a fight is going to happen - even if I know I'd lose

These fights nearly always degenerate into rolling about on the floor and Judo prepares you well for this.

Like I said, how about fist fights?

It prepares you for how physical fighting actually is - the proximity of your opponent, their weight and stregnth - and as a result it will be familiar and you'll know how to react to a greater extent than if you studied Karate or Jujitsu.

So fist fights is for Jiu-Jistu, grab+roll fights is Judo? I still don't understand, how would you do in a fist fight using Judo? How practical is using Judo in a real fight?

It also teaches you how to fight people with clothes on.

Well, I'd hope I'm fighting people with their clothes on

Don't expect to learn chokes and locks straight away - we weren't allowed to even practise them at my school untill reaching green (3rd) belt - and make sure you're having fun

I'm most excited to learn throws, actually.

 

[Fliko]

Each martial art has it's advantage and disadvantage.
If you took Judo, and got to a fist fight, I imagine you should easily be able to turn the fist fight onto the ground and then you'd gain the element of surprising by turning the whole battle around.

Fighting isn't about being fair, it's about not getting the shit beat out of you.

 

[Dog--]

Fighting isn't about being fair

Yes it is, I'd rather get the shit beat out of me then winning a fight by kicking someone in the balls.. Some things I'd let slide, like if they fought dirty, then I would too, but if both people are fighting fair, it should stay that way! Especially if it's where alot of people you know are, then everyone is gonna say your a bitch cause you can't even fight without cheating.. (where I am from, anyways)

Nyah.

 

[Jintor]

Yes it is, I'd rather get the shit beat out of me then winning a fight by kicking someone in the balls.. Some things I'd let slide, like if they fought dirty, then I would too, but if both people are fighting fair, it should stay that way! Especially if it's where alot of people you know are, then everyone is gonna say your a bitch cause you can't even fight without cheating.. (where I am from, anyways)

Nyah.

It depends on situation. Tournament fighting, yes. Street fight/mugging/bar fight? Go straight into ass-kicking mode.

 

[Dog--]

Well, if it's life-threatening..

 

[Danimal]

Street fights are always going to be "Life-threatening" this person isn't going to hit you for shits and giggles, he wants you hurt. Bad.