MP fault potential

[ASnogarD]

Lame topic title :rolling:

Anyways, I was wondering how high the potential of this fault slipping into HL 2 MP (whatever it may be) :

HL 2 will run on a reasonable spectrum of machines (not a ZX Spectrum tho :E ), but to allow for lower end machines some settings must be dropped to maintain a reasonable FPS. The potential problem lies with what the High end system player can see and what the Low end player can see.

Example say the High end player sees thick steam pouring out of a manhole, the player ducks behind the steam thinking he will be hard to spot through the thick steam, but say the low end player can't generate the steam...so he see the high end player squatting over a pixelated manhole.

High end player : How the $#%@# you spot me with all that Steam?
Low end player : What steam, looked like you were taking a dump over a manhole.
High end player : shit!

See what I mean? I know BF:Vietnam has this problem...specifically that a high end player see a lot of foliage, while the low end sees a minimal amount, result its advantageous to select a lower setting even if your machine is capable.

This is potentially a rather nasty problem...even years from today if we are still playing HL 2 MP, I mean if one can gain a edge of others by dropping the eyecandy most players would...but this would mean no one would want to play with all the bells and whistles even if thier machine is capable.

Discuss this potential fault.

 

[redundant]

it could be a problem, but i don't think i'm smart enough to hide behind some steam, so not really a problem for me.

 

[RipperRoo]

Sounds like the smoke trails and explosions in Dod, you throw a grenade into sand to kick up a huge puff of smoke, then you get shot in the face right through it by people with particle effects off....

 

[Wsh]

I don't think it's a problem. I'm confident that there won't be many features that affect the gameplay like that. More like other 'not-so-important' visual differences. Even if there were that kind of differences, it would mean that the high-end players could edit them out themselves in a way or another. If they really wanted to.

 

[MindCrafter]

I don't think this will be much of a problem, we can only wait and see.
But i rather have alot of eye candy and lose a little bit more than having to play a game that looks old.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

It's already a problem today in Valves games.

I play Day Of Defeat with cl_particlefx 0. Another player may have it on 2, and when he fires a bazooka thinking the smoke trail will give him a bit of a disguise he's wrong. I see no smoke and shoot happily. In the end i have the advantage.

In the end a huge amount of people turn such pointless eye candy features off to give themselves a competitive advantage.

 

[Chris D]

There will be LODs for models and the world environment. These could all be generated client side so effectively you could have a person with a kick ass 3.6GHz, 1024MB RAM and an x800 XT 256mb running all of the world environments and models on very high details; then a person with a 1GHz, 128MB RAM and a TNT2 running very low details in the same server.

In Day of Defeat they should really change that to how it works in CS. Make it impossible to turn smoke sprites off, but the lowest level particle effects generate a really crude smoke effect that won't lag you. They'll probably do that. If you guys are as bad as the CS ones too, you'll moan about it for weeks when it happens

Going back to the issue... Like I said, smoke and fog effects probably will be simulated on lower end machines but just won't look as good. I really can't see it being a problem at all.

 

[Polykarbon]

Having people exploit a games graphic engine for multiplayer is almost as bad a down right cheating.

People who crank up their gamma/brightness in Natural Selection sicken me. That game was NEVER meant to be played like that...yet the people who do it will protest otherwise. It gets really annoying when I'm a cloaked skulk and get spotted because of gamma/brightness exploiters.

I thought it was going to be a serious problem for Splinter Cell PT online play. Luckily the developers made it so that black = black. They took off the IN GAME gamma/brightness in multiplayer so that players are forced to use the default darkness levels. That would of made the game entirely exploited and ruined from the get go.

The NS team should take out the gamma/brightness features...and just set them at a default locked level.

Anyway, exploiting is lame. Players who do it for the advantage are lame, nuff' said. No debating this. If you disagree you are wrong.

 

[Gunner]

It will be very unlikely we'll witness dialogues like the one you mentioned, it will be something more along the lines of...

High end player : How the $#%@# you spot me with all that Steam?
Low end player : I pwn j00!!!1
High end player : wallhax!

 

[CR0M]

Mr-Fusion is of course right. Most pro multi-players and clan members will have all detail and eye-candy turned right down or off, to improve system performance and increase visibility of opponents.

Then there are the cheats who go one further and exploit anti-foliage, anti-glare, wall hacks etc. to get even less on their screens (though what sad satisfaction they get in playing like that is a mystery to me).

ASnogarD is also right in that this will be a problem with HL2, as it is with all multiplayer games. The obvious and only solutions are to:

A. Use your brain and don't take cover behind anything other than a solid object. Like your teammates for example.

B. play like a pro and turn everything down. After all, the aim of multiplayer is to win, not to sight see - the pretty stuff is what the single player game delivers.

 

[Bicka]

The NS team should take out the gamma/brightness features...and just set them at a default locked level.

Anyway, exploiting is lame. Players who do it for the advantage are lame, nuff' said. No debating this. If you disagree you are wrong.

Exploiting is lame I agree with that but not about increasing gamma/brightness.
My monitor's default g/b is so redicously dark (when maxed) that I can't see in splintercell:multiplayer, even when I'm running nightvision, so that games instantly ruined for me because I can't do anything about it, bar buy a new monitor...no thanks.

About the low end/high end problems. You only have to look at BF:Vietnam (like asnogerd said) and farcry to see that it is a problem for outside enviroments.
Considering the HL2 maps will most likely be showing off their engine to the max, we'll be smart to assume that they'll include an outside map or 2...or 5...

Theres nothing funnier, when playing farcry, to see someone prone half a mile away at the edge of the map believing that they're lying in a bush and thats with my settings to the max as well.

 

[Starfish]

From valves and your point of view their are two ways of removing this problem.

1. Have all players on the server forcibly connect with the same settings.
2. Have all players announce their settings in a low, medium or high way when connecting. So that only the same level of setting can play each other - that way their is no unfairness.

I am sure these are easy to implement with the engine - either client side or server side.

 

[mortiz]

Exploiting is lame I agree with that but not about increasing gamma/brightness.
My monitor's default g/b is so redicously dark (when maxed) that I can't see in splintercell:multiplayer, even when I'm running nightvision, so that games instantly ruined for me because I can't do anything about it, bar buy a new monitor...no thanks.

Why don't you just turn up the gamma on your graphics card? Or get a nifty little Util like Powerstrip and turn up the gamma using that. The fact is, even if dev teams lock gamma and brightness there are plenty of ways around it.

 

[Stormy]

Will be like HL, Different qualities of steam. Go play CS and change the quality of the smoke nades, you will see what i mean.

 

[-JeZ-]

From valves and your point of view their are two ways of removing this problem.

1. Have all players on the server forcibly connect with the same settings.
2. Have all players announce their settings in a low, medium or high way when connecting. So that only the same level of setting can play each other - that way their is no unfairness.

I am sure these are easy to implement with the engine - either client side or server side.

I think that your first option is one of the only fair ways of leveling the LOD playing field although the second point would cause massive hastle. "You have been kicked becuase your LOD settings are too low/high". That would really do my head in.

 

[Starfish]

I think that your first option is one of the only fair ways of leveling the LOD playing field although the second point would cause massive hastle. "You have been kicked becuase your LOD settings are too low/high". That would really do my head in.

good point - but if you had some kind of automatic script upon joining a low, mid or high level server which set all of the options for you it wouldn't be such a hassle - I think.

 

[Kirkburn]

I thought it was going to be a serious problem for Splinter Cell PT online play. Luckily the developers made it so that black = black. They took off the IN GAME gamma/brightness in multiplayer so that players are forced to use the default darkness levels. That would of made the game entirely exploited and ruined from the get go.

Black = black in HL2 as well, don't worry

 

[Krusty]

Interesting discussion.
I remember a mate who used to play Quake at a high level (says he beat Sujoy once), and his config was bonkers... Wide FOV, no textures, luminous yellow skins (for his opponents)...
He was damn good at it but I argued with him loads cause I liked it the way it was meant to be played (soz) - with my SLI Voodoo's

Ahh Quake - Hope DMC gets ported and updated for Source....heh

Anyway, but to the case in point....personally I reckon the 'force everyone to same config' (within a setable degree of tolerance) which is set by the server admin is the way to go. This may appear unfair to those with old hardware but playing against this kiddies with hacked configs is not fair on those of us who have spent a fortune to get the most realistic, believable experience...

An auto confuring script could be annoying for those that have spent ages tweaking theirs for max performance/detail.
S'pose it could back up the original though...

Cheers,
Krusty

 

[acme420]

Why don't you just turn up the gamma on your graphics card? Or get a nifty little Util like Powerstrip and turn up the gamma using that. The fact is, even if dev teams lock gamma and brightness there are plenty of ways around it.

thats the whole thing the other uy was crying about. people who turn up their gamma so they can see people in the dark.


my monitor is really **** dark too, it wasnt like this at first, but now even with the ingame settings and my monitor brightness all the way on high, i can barely see 10 feet outside on a dust/dust2/iceworld or any other bright map.

 

[CR0M]

Dark monitors = graphics card, not crappy monitor. Try different graphics drivers or a different card altogether - we have the same problem now and then with upgrading work machines.

As for forcing people to play a game a certain way just ain't gonna happen is it, general pinoche. Would be like forcing all formula 1 drivers to have the same cars with the same engines, same tyres, same tweaks. Setting up your playing preferences is all part of multiplayer gaming, take that away and your game has no players.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

It'll be virtually the same as today.

Config checking for clan games, no custom anything.

Any config you want for pub games, customs galore.

 

[Bicka]

Dark monitors = graphics card, not crappy monitor. Try different graphics drivers or a different card altogether - we have the same problem now and then with upgrading work machines.

Err, no its the monitor...

I've upgraded from a Riva Tnt to a gf2 to a gf4:ti4400 to a 9800xt and my monitor's max brightness/contrast has always been pathetic...

Out of interest, my monitor is a Hansol 710D.

 

[umop]

Dark monitors = graphics card, not crappy monitor. Try different graphics drivers or a different card altogether - we have the same problem now and then with upgrading work machines.

That's not true. My monitor has the same darkness problem, and when I borrow my friend's monitors they are much brighter. I'm using a 9800 Pro with the 4.5 Cat drivers, and I bet like 9 million other people are too, so using your logic, 9 million people suffer from dark monitor syndrome. I don't think so.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Cheesus, everyone wants cool graphic effects, but they turn them all off when they actually play the game?

This is why I don't play multiplayer.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

This is why I don't play multiplayer.

Because people change their settings?

 

[Mountain Man]

Best solution: Have an unchangable moderate visual configuration for multiplayer that will yield good performand and visuals on a wide variety of systems. Since the Source engine is optimized for DirectX 6/7 through DirectX 9, it shouldn't be that difficult to create similiar visuals on a range of hardware. That would even the playing field regardless of kind of system the various players have.

 

[Fishlore]

I don't play multiplayer either. Can't stand it. I'll take a polished, scripted, well designed adventure anyday over the mess that is MP. MP has worse performance, mindless objectives, no story, leet speak, cheats, tweeks, immature people...... LOL no thanks.

Couple that with no more than an hour a day to play and MP isn't even a consideration in my book.

 

[Link]

The initial post is valid, graphics allowing psudeo-wallhacking, but the rest is all tosh.

Don't change gamma in NS? What happens when the sun is behind me? I can't see unless the gammas up, and even then its hard.

Winning isn't what is important in multiplayer, well, maybe to you it is, but not to eveyone, so don't state it like its fact. I think, along with many, that having fun is what is important, and when the game looks good I find it more fun.

Link

 

[Gunner]

I don't play multiplayer either. Can't stand it. I'll take a polished, scripted, well designed adventure anyday over the mess that is MP. MP has worse performance, mindless objectives, no story, leet speak, cheats, tweeks, immature people...... LOL no thanks.

All that aside, some of the greatest moments can only be had online.

 

[Fishlore]

CB|Para. Your opinion which I respect, is one in which I couldn't disagree with more. At the same time, some of the worst gaming experiences of my life have been Multiplayer experiences.

 

[CR0M]

That's not true. My monitor has the same darkness problem, and when I borrow my friend's monitors they are much brighter. I'm using a 9800 Pro with the 4.5 Cat drivers, and I bet like 9 million other people are too, so using your logic, 9 million people suffer from dark monitor syndrome. I don't think so.

My logic is based on experience, umop. We have had this problem several times - the main cause mainly being openGL. Direct3D is less likely to screw around. Are you using directx 8 or 9? what resolution are you running at, and does your monitor support that? what frequency have you got your monitor set to, and does it support that? is it a crt or tft? of course it could be your monitor, i'm not saying it isn't. But troubleshoot before you rush into blaming faulty hardware and totally denying other peoples offer of solutions, k?

 

[Crushenator 500]

I don't play multiplayer either. Can't stand it. I'll take a polished, scripted, well designed adventure anyday over the mess that is MP. MP has worse performance, mindless objectives, no story, leet speak, cheats, tweeks, immature people...... LOL no thanks.

Couple that with no more than an hour a day to play and MP isn't even a consideration in my book.

i think that you're playing the wrong games with the wrong people tbh.

MP's great.

far better than SP IMO. the performance is great. just as good as SP games, most people that consider themselves 'leet', are too busy 'pwning j00' than caring about talking to you, and most servers ive ever been on, bar 3 or 4, have had no cheats whatsoever. and the people that do cheat, often get banned pretty damn quickly.

but then again, if you prefer a good story story and tied in objectives, by all means, play SP. just dont go around saying all those things, and stating them as fact.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

I just don't like multiplayer.

Because people change their settings?

Because of that, and all that similar stuff. Like fishlore said:

I don't play multiplayer either. Can't stand it. I'll take a polished, scripted, well designed adventure anyday over the mess that is MP. MP has worse performance, mindless objectives, no story, leet speak, cheats, tweeks, immature people...... LOL no thanks.

People ruin MP. It's a chore for them, devoid of fun. If they don't win, they're paralyzed with rage. When they do win, they call their moms and ask for praise. It's all go in, shoot guy, leave. No-one has much fun but at least it's over fast. In multiplayer, the vast majority of players get far more pleasure from seeing their name on the highscores after the game than they did actually achieving them.

Turning down the details, blasting the contrast, cheats, hacks and whatnot. All symptomatic of this. It's all from people who don't give a crap about the integrity of the game and simply do anything to win. Amusement be damned! They want the highscore for god knows what purpose, and the rest of the world has to compensate, usually by emulating the idiots or styling their entire method of play around compensating for the hardcore pwn. Game designers have to put massive amounts of develpoment time into compensating for them too. The entire concept of 'winning' has been warped to the point that it's killing games. It's idiots vs. games, and the idiots are basically winning through majority.

L337s, hackers, cheaters and the lot have an ideal that simply goes against the entire basis of gaming. If they ran the Olympics, they would have it so that the actual sports were removed, and the entire event would be them handing out gold medals to themselves . The game is far secondary to the win. For that reason, I swear that AI has far more varied tactics and abilities than any MP player will. It's a culture where mechanical repetition is valued for it's sheer ability to generate a joyless, meaningless victory.
LOL DEAGLE AWP COMBO
[/rant]

 

[Gunner]

CB|Para. Your opinion which I respect, is one in which I couldn't disagree with more. At the same time, some of the worst gaming experiences of my life have been Multiplayer experiences.

That is also very true hehe.

 

[HunterSeeker]

I like both MP and SP, I play through SP once and then spend many many many hours on mulitplayer. They are both fun in different ways.

That you said about people always doing anything to win is true sometimes, but it usually is not (I play a lot of mp, if you didnt get that allready). It sounds like the mp you tried was one of its worst moments. Tell me what games (or mods) you tried MP on?

 

[EVIL]

This low vs high setting thing on MP is the main reason why I never play Multiplayer games on high settings; from Quake 3 to HL AG and Battlefield 1942 ... I play those games with everything on low but with 1024 x 768 or higher resolution. ... Advantages = High frame rate, good mouse control (I have a Razer boomslang 2000 dpi mouse so I wont have my crosshair jumping pixels when moving it on screen. Its a real bitch when you are trying to shoot someone from a pretty large distance for example with the rail gun in Q3A and you can't put it on your opponent because the screen resolution and the mouse DPI is to low and it keep jumping from the one side to the other) and it wont display allot of garbage on my screen that can hide opponents.

 

[ferd]

tbh, this problem has always been around, veryone always downtunes his gfx settings, to see the enemy better...and tbh, nothing will stop them from doing it now

 

[Mountain Man]

You know, it never occured to me to downgrade my graphics to gain a competitive advantage. Perhaps it's because I play to have fun and don't really much care about the score. I like to win, yes, but not at the cost of my enjoyment.

 

[Flyingdebris]

i remember being present at a quake 3 rocket arena tournament. i have never seen such a disgusting display of tweaking in my entire life

these people, all of them in fact, had turned down their settings to the point where the levels had no textures and the players were a collection of blotchy looking polygons that stuck out. The weapon models looked like crap and the muzzle flashes were big ole squares.

all for the sake of competition. BAH

if i play a game i play with as many visuals maxxed out as i can get away with. I hate having crappy visuals when i know i can do better.

 

[poseyjmac]

Why don't you just turn up the gamma on your graphics card? Or get a nifty little Util like Powerstrip and turn up the gamma using that. The fact is, even if dev teams lock gamma and brightness there are plenty of ways around it.

there is no way around the true black in splinter cell by adjusting brightness in or out of the game.