Mushroom cloud over N.Korea

Tr0n said:
Well you to have a democracy...why don't you Brits tell him to leave Iraq or get him out of his postion?
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LMAO. US. A DEMOCRACY?

Basically people pay millions for your election campaign and by the time you make it to washington they basically own you. Yeah. Great Democracy you have there where most of the politicians are corrupt.

Also Pobz, some of our troops have killed Iraqi's (one was in the paper today charged with murder and he was a soldier working at a roadside checkpoint where this Iraqi dude was stopped and ran off with a hand full of mortars, which is why I can't understand why the poor guy is charged with murder).
 
craig said:
LMAO. US. A DEMOCRACY?

Basically people pay millions for your election campaign and by the time you make it to washington they basically own you. Yeah. Great Democracy you have there where most of the politicians are corrupt.

Also Pobz, some of our troops have killed Iraqi's (one was in the paper today charged with murder and he was a soldier working at a roadside checkpoint where this Iraqi dude was stopped and ran off with a hand full of mortars, which is why I can't understand why the poor guy is charged with murder).
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Don't vote for corrupt politicians then. The people running the government don't make the government itself different. We have a representative democracy, where we vote for people to represent us and we vote for president through them. what don't you get?
 
craig said:
LMAO. US. A DEMOCRACY?

Basically people pay millions for your election campaign and by the time you make it to washington they basically own you. Yeah. Great Democracy you have there where most of the politicians are corrupt.

Also Pobz, some of our troops have killed Iraqi's (one was in the paper today charged with murder and he was a soldier working at a roadside checkpoint where this Iraqi dude was stopped and ran off with a hand full of mortars, which is why I can't understand why the poor guy is charged with murder).
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Every goverment has some type of corruption so don't even single yours out.
 
lePobz said:
Actually that was the fact that you kinda skipped right over again there ... thanks for proving my point though.

Just incase you might miss this fact again, i've made it a bit bigger.

]Number of Civillian Casualties shot and Killed by US Troops:11,000+
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Again, you didn't even bother to present the facts. You had somebody give them to you. Also, those include all allied numbers. Thirdly, the UK isn't one to speak with such things, Ireland anyone? Wait, that was the UK being perfectly fair as well.

You still haven't addressed any of your other points. Grasping at straws.

It is sad that 11,000 civilians died. Don't change the subject though.

LMAO. US. A DEMOCRACY?

Basically people pay millions for your election campaign and by the time you make it to washington they basically own you. Yeah. Great Democracy you have there where most of the politicians are corrupt.
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Yup, you know so much about US politics. I must defer to you because you obvisouly know more about US politics even though your a UK citizen.
 
Blahblahblah, you are acting completely out of line. I don't appreciate the way you are repeatedly insulting other members. I'm giving you 24 hours to cool off... If you are unhappy with my decision, E-Mail me or speak to me on MSN...

*Banned*

And lePobz, you didn't help matters any by continuing this, consider yourself warned
 
i hope a mod closes this thread. it's gotten ridiculous. btw LePobz, you're goading blahblahblah with your blatant invectives. frankly, they're absurd and sensationalized. 11,000 civilians? sure, you can cite iraqbodycount.com, but believe me there were not 11,000 people without ak's and rpg's.

and on topic. i doubt this was nuclear. NK is just trying to cover their own asses and see if they can get something out of it.
 
blah shouldnt be banned. You need to look at a wide spectrum of posts to understand his perspective. People on the opposite side insult him as much as he insulted them this one, specific time. This is the first time I have seen him this way.

and on topic. i doubt this was nuclear. NK is just trying to cover their own asses and see if they can get something out of it.
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Some people have suggested it to be a forest fire. I think the nuke is the most likely reason, however.
 
Icarus said:
Blahblahblah, you are acting completely out of line. I don't appreciate the way you are repeatedly insulting other members. I'm giving you 24 hours to cool off... If you are unhappy with my decision, E-Mail me or speak to me on MSN...

*Banned*

And lePobz, you didn't help matters any by continuing this, consider yourself warned
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I think that was completely uneeded. Blahblahblah has always been a great member here and is always very calm and respectful of others. He only lost his cool because he had a personal tie to the US military which lePobz seemed set on insulting. He was only defending what he saw as a direct attack on his country and family. He wasn't the one who started thingsby intentionally baiting other's by saying things which were obviously insulting to many people who are in or have family in the military.

Edit: Whoa, I just agreed with you seinfeld rules. I think I just saw a pig fly. ;)
 
Neutrino said:
I think that was completely uneeded. Blahblahblah has always been a great member here and is always very calm and respectful of others. He only lost his cool because he had a personal tie to the US military which lePobz seemed set on insulting. He was only defending what he saw as a direct attack on his country and family. He wasn't the one who started thingsby intentionally baiting other's by saying things which were obviously insulting to many people who are in or have family in the military.

Edit: Whoa, I just agreed with you seinfeld rules. I think I just saw a pig fly. ;)
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Noted, if he dissagrees with this, he can speak to me on MSN, end of story...
 
seinfeldrules said:
So after 24 hours he is unbanned?
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Yes, he is. Could be shorter if he speaks with Icarus and they sort something out.
 
Banning blahblahblah seems incredibly harsh for reasons already stated by others in this thread. He's always been an excellent member, and has made thoughtful contributions to almost every thread on these boards. His anger was certainly understandable, and justified in this case. If anything it was the remarks made by lePobz regarding the US Armed Forces were out of line.
 
Everything has been sorted out with me and Icarus.

All in all, I shouldn't have lost my cool, but I still stand by all the non-flamatory stuff I have said.
 
blahblahblah spoke with me, and I have decided to lift his ban based off of the conversation.

A note to the others posting about this. If you have problems with my course of action if the future, don't post in the topic about it...PM me.

*Unbanned*
 
Icarus said:
blahblahblah spoke with me, and I have decided to lift his ban based off of the conversation.

A note to the others posting about this. If you have problems with my course of action if the future, don't post in the topic about it...PM me.

*Unbanned*
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glad to hear everything worked out :)

by the way, is that your first "*unbanned*"?
 
seinfeldrules said:
Some people have suggested it to be a forest fire. I think the nuke is the most likely reason, however.
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Back on topic, from my limited knowledge, most of the larger convential explosions that are used by militaries around the world create mushroom clouds.

I even remember seeing extremely small mushroom clouds created by tomahawk cruise missles.
 
blahblahblah said:
Back on topic, from my limited knowledge, most of the larger convential explosions that are used by militaries around the world create mushroom clouds.

I even remember seeing extremely small mushroom clouds created by tomahawk cruise missles.
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isn't that sort of the natural way the smoke goes in an explosion and such? puffs out at top? even in the cs he grenade, it spreads out at top, for lack of better comparison :p
 
I've had some uh, debate or -rather a flamewar- with some people about the US Military. Most of them agreed that alot of the people who go to the military aren't patriots or anything, they just go thier to pay thier post-secondary education and get other benefits. So anyway ..

I really hate it when some people say "we should've gone after NK rather than Iraq", not because I think "going to Iraq is better" but I think Americans shouldn't go around the world telling people what they can have and they can't.
You can't say "uh look, I'm the only one allowed to have nukes, so if you're trying to get some you better disarm yourself or I'll kick your ass"

The reason Americans killed more civillians than the British is simple and is pretty obvious: they have far more troops. (I think %95 of the so-called coalition are american forces?)
And I think 11,000 is less than the real number. There is simply no way to count every single Iraqi killed. These numbers are collected from the news, but the news doesn't know about every single death that happens over there.
 
hasan said:
And I think 11,000 is less than the real number. There is simply no way to count every single Iraqi killed. These numbers are collected from the news, but the news doesn't know about every single death that happens over there.
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No you're right, there's no way they can tell 100%.
But regardless, those numbers are usually acceptably accurate.
 
blahblahblah said:
So if Bush invades NK, would that make you happy or make you complain more?
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Well, as long as they don't make up nonsense and actually PROVE that NK is a threat, then sure. Also, they could actually have a plan for after the attack. That would be nice.

My only beef with the Iraq war was that the US's rushed attack plan has led to a ton of crap for everyone involved, and they gained support by exaggerating really weak 'evidence' of WMDs.

Saddam being unquestionably evil was a real motive, but Bush basically lied by fudging shoddy evidence in order to make a false link between Saddam and terrorism for reasons we may never completely understand.

If that sort of mismanagement is removed from the attack, I'd love to see someone eliminate NK's human rights violations.

No mismanagement / Working towards removing all Saddam-like jerks from power = Happy MechaG!

More Abu Ghirab / UN inspection rushing / Lack of actual evidence / Fake evidence / Just removing one evil guy from power while ignoring others / Creating another terrorism scare where none exists / Poor planning = Sad MechaG.
 
Mechagodzilla said:
Well, as long as they don't make up nonsense and actually PROVE that NK is a threat, then sure. Also, they could actually have a plan for after the attack. That would be nice.
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I agree with you completely. However, I doubt any amount of planning could reduce the effects of having a nations government collapse suddenly. Let alone that this government collapse was caused by an outside nation that will be occupying the nation for years.
 
OK, In order to make this thread on topic once again, the U.S.A would undoubtly crush North Korea in an armed conflict. There is no possible way North Korea could win (other than nuking the U.S forces). Their airforce is obselete, and barely operational at that. Yes their army is 1.5 million. But Iraqs was over one million in the first Gulf War too. It was a crushing victory for the Allies in that conflict, due to air supremacy. They just wiped out the large Iraqi columns through airstrikes. Also North Korea has very poor logistics. They could invade, but their troops would run out of food/ammo in a matter of weeks. HOWEVER, North Korea has very large artillery batteries, largely aimed at South Korea's capital, Seoul. In a couple of hours they could FLATTEN the entire city, and devestate the whole of Korea very easily. There is no way the U.S airforce could take out all that artillery in a couple of hours. They have quite good special forces too. This is the reason that they are basically impregnable - the costs & burdens of having to rebuild ALL of Korea would be too much for the U.S to shoulder.
 
Not to mention that NK's military has had its current leader for quite sometime and I am sure he has made sure children grew up knowing only what he wanted them to know and are quite willing to die for their country using suicidial bombings if need be.... If the U.S went in there (which they would HAVE to do with ground troops sometimes), we (as in the USA) would face a lot of casualties... and I fear the general public of the US is getting 'soft' and would never allow such American casualities to exist under any presidency anymore
 
lePobz said:
I don't get why Iraq was invaded for being dodgy with WMD, when north Korea definately has them, and is definately dodgy.
Iraq never even had WMD... and here's Korea setting the bloody things off. Deary me Mr Bush, maybe it's because there's no OIL in North Korea.
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Oil probably is one of the reasons, yes. However also I think it might have something to do with the fact that N. Korea didn't falter when the US threatened them with the Axis of Evil.

The US said: "N. Korea, you are naughty, you must change your ways. You must change your wicked ways or face the consequences."
N. Korea replied: "Come on then."

I think that defiance threw them a bit - why are they so cocky? What do we not know?
N. Korea's leader (Kim Jong Il?) is a bit of a fruit-cake and I honestly wonder whether having a nuclear arsenal is genuinely for aggressive purposes or whether it's simply to show off that they can. To prove that they cannot and will not be submissive to more powerful governments.
The whole idea behind who is and isn't allowed nuclear weapons is monstrously hypocritical, anyway.

BackFyr - I fail to see how not wanting to sacrifice your children, spouse, family or friends for an illusory cause makes you "soft."
 
InsaneCow said:
OK, In order to make this thread on topic once again, the U.S.A would undoubtly crush North Korea in an armed conflict. There is no possible way North Korea could win (other than nuking the U.S forces). Their airforce is obselete, and barely operational at that. Yes their army is 1.5 million. But Iraqs was over one million in the first Gulf War too. It was a crushing victory for the Allies in that conflict, due to air supremacy. They just wiped out the large Iraqi columns through airstrikes. Also North Korea has very poor logistics. They could invade, but their troops would run out of food/ammo in a matter of weeks. HOWEVER, North Korea has very large artillery batteries, largely aimed at South Korea's capital, Seoul. In a couple of hours they could FLATTEN the entire city, and devestate the whole of Korea very easily. There is no way the U.S airforce could take out all that artillery in a couple of hours. They have quite good special forces too. This is the reason that they are basically impregnable - the costs & burdens of having to rebuild ALL of Korea would be too much for the U.S to shoulder.
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If NK goes into guerrilla's warfare I don't know if USA would win (easily). There are alot of forrests in NK perfect for that kind of warfare. And we all seen what happend to USA in Vietnam... And don't forget they have been preparing for war for decades. And also they got enough missiles to blow away every aircraft carrier to pieces that comes near them. But maybe America can destroy them before.
 
Looks like all you far wing wack jobs can crawl out of your bomb shelters, take off the tin foil caps, and breath a sigh of relief.
 
Sgt_Shellback said:
Looks like all you far wing wack jobs can crawl out of your bomb shelters, take off the tin foil caps, and breath a sigh of relief.
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Dear lord, they're after our caps now?

What has the world come to?!
 
Diablo2k said:
If NK goes into guerrilla's warfare I don't know if USA would win (easily). There are alot of forrests in NK perfect for that kind of warfare. And we all seen what happend to USA in Vietnam... And don't forget they have been preparing for war for decades. And also they got enough missiles to blow away every aircraft carrier to pieces that comes near them. But maybe America can destroy them before.
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They could just go Hiroshima on them if they really wanted to :dozey: ...
 
burnzie said:
They could just go Hiroshima on them if they really wanted to :dozey: ...
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And if they do that you can say goodbye to the world...
 
Diablo2k said:
And if they do that you can say goodbye to the world...
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i know...

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." -- Albert Einstein

sad, but true.
 
Diablo2k said:
And if they do that you can say goodbye to the world...
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If NK nuked Seoul or Tokyo what would you do?

What do you think the response should be from the worlds powers such as the EU, Russia, China?

What do you think America's response should be? (I seperated this for America because the US has pacts with Japan and South Korea to defend those countries so the answer could be different)
 
Diablo2k said:
If NK goes into guerrilla's warfare I don't know if USA would win (easily). There are alot of forrests in NK perfect for that kind of warfare. And we all seen what happend to USA in Vietnam... And don't forget they have been preparing for war for decades. And also they got enough missiles to blow away every aircraft carrier to pieces that comes near them. But maybe America can destroy them before.
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Due to North Koreas extremely poor logistical system it is unlikely that a form of Guerilla warfare would work. Although their commandos are very effective, there is only a small area for them to operate, with fairly obselete equipment. It would be bloody, but I am positive the U.S would win. Several reasons why Guerilla warfare was successful in Vietnam -
1. The North Vietnamese had a practically unlimited source of materials (guns, planes, tanks etc) supplied from China and Russia, which were not being attacked by the U.S. They had a land border, and so material could easily be moved from China to Vietnam. This would not happen with North Korea. China actually has better relations with S.K (largely due to economic links).
2. The Logistical system was actually quite good for the North Vietnamese (Ho Chi Minh trail). As well as large farming communities that could be infiltrated and have food and so forth supplied. This is not the case with North Korea (which needs to import food).
3. The people were very motivated. North Korea does have this in their favour however. Decades of propganda have been largely effective in uniting the country.

With really only 1/3 of the requirements succesful, I doubt Guerilla warfare would continue for long. There would probably be isolated incidents of violence for several months, but nothing like Iraq now IMHO.
 
Icarus why warn me? I was the one trying to get back on topic ...

Next time could you PM me my warnings so I know i've been warned? I rarely come back to old threads once they've been hijacked.
 
InsaneCow said:
Due to North Koreas extremely poor logistical system it is unlikely that a form of Guerilla warfare would work. Although their commandos are very effective, there is only a small area for them to operate, with fairly obselete equipment. It would be bloody, but I am positive the U.S would win. Several reasons why Guerilla warfare was successful in Vietnam -
1. The North Vietnamese had a practically unlimited source of materials (guns, planes, tanks etc) supplied from China and Russia, which were not being attacked by the U.S. They had a land border, and so material could easily be moved from China to Vietnam. This would not happen with North Korea. China actually has better relations with S.K (largely due to economic links).
2. The Logistical system was actually quite good for the North Vietnamese (Ho Chi Minh trail). As well as large farming communities that could be infiltrated and have food and so forth supplied. This is not the case with North Korea (which needs to import food).
3. The people were very motivated. North Korea does have this in their favour however. Decades of propganda have been largely effective in uniting the country.

With really only 1/3 of the requirements succesful, I doubt Guerilla warfare would continue for long. There would probably be isolated incidents of violence for several months, but nothing like Iraq now IMHO.
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I agree with your point in principle but just for sake of conversation I'd say there is more to consider on Vietnam.

Tactically the US never lost and in the Jungle the US forces did better than when fighting occured in the cities... (Tet)

The US failed strategically and pollitically... Supply lines thru Laos stayed open and were unchallenged, not bombing Hanoi until the very end of the war... Losing the support of the American Public, etc...

BTW - I speak from experience not from some web source.

Edit: My point for the NK topic here is that Military capability is one thing. Public resolve and strategy is another.
 
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