my thoughts on realism.

Choscura

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i'm getting pretty sick of seeing a bunch of mods that- while brilliantly executed- do nothing new. i'm getting sick of seeing these bullshit 'what if' world war 2 mods, where they try to re-create everything down into the color of the hair on the soldiers. haven't we had about enough of these? its overrated, and overdone, and i'm sick of seeing and playing them. this also goes for this years favorite war, vietnam. the vietnam war was a bunch of people doing what they were told- or in many cases, ignoring what they were told and doing what they wanted- that was only exciting because these jungle primitives could beat an american superpowered military. on their own turf, using methods perfected centuries ago, fighting new recruits who couldn't pull the trigger to- literally- save their life. its not exciting playing a game based in a war where the 'bad guy' is twice as good as the 'good guy'. it seems like these people could at least come up with some good data on the persian gulf, or the panama incursion, or the drug busts in columbia, or even the war in afghanistan and iraq! do we REALLY need to re-do the wars we've already fought? jesus christ, this pisses me off.

i'm also highly pissed at these afficianado types who- despite having never touched or in many cases even been NEAR a real gun (knowingly, and that gun in the holster on the police officers hip doesn't count, there's no round chambered, typically) think they know everything about the modern military assault rifles, or submachine guns, or pistols, or whatever their fancy is. you want to know about these guns? go to a gun store and ask about going on a live-fire event. if your not in a highly liberal area (don't shoot here, the gas ejection will kill six beetles!) you should have no problem seeing many of the more prominant weapons used today. if you're making a mod with these guns in it, bring a camera and get some pictures, and then talk to the people about how they work and how they're used. i'm so sick of seeing static weapons that- despite boasted realism- look nothing like the real thing, function nothing like it, have none of the flaws, and are the ultimate versatile weapon. it doesn't work that way. realism is having your gun jam when you need it most- because thats when it happens. when you're using it.

if you want realism, you're going to have to know what the real thing is. remember the funny top spiky-blocky looking things on the submachine gun in hl2? thats called an RIF. rail inteface system. the RIF on most modern guns goes on the top, the sides, and the bottom, and is used to attach things such as lights, scopes, handles, laser target designators and cameras (combat photography), among other things. the target (on the gun) is, essentially real (it wouldn't have the crosshairs as viewed in the game, the crosshair is shown by a laser further forward in the device that has been calibrated to show-when looking through that small glass pane- where your bullet will probably hit. the submachine gun is also real: its an HK mp-7, recently introduced and not (as far as i know) in full production for any police or military force in the world. another thing about realism that bugs me is the fire rate for full-auto weapons. the french FAMAS (a good gun, despite being french) has a fire rate of 2200 rpm. it comes with a standard 20 or 30 round clip. lets think here for a minute: 2200.... divided by 60.... equals 36 or 37 rounds per SECOND. thats one squeeze of the trigger, a lot of lead goes bye-bye. a more standard speed is about 600 rpm: thats still ten rounds in a second. thats two or three times as fast as most games allow you to fire.

all this being said, i'd like to contribute a few resources. i don't want this ENTIRE thing to negativity. just most of it.

http://blackhawkindustries.com/
http://world.guns***/main-e.htm
http://perfectunion.com/forums/

those three site SHOULD be enough to answer most questions about modern tactics, gear, and weapons. the last one in particular, since its a forum filled with law enforcement officers, military personnel and gun collectors.

i'm glad i have that out of my system now.
 
games are made to simulate realism to escape from a present reality. suspension of disbelief is critical to a users enjoyment.
 
Choscura said:
games are made to simulate realism to escape from a present reality. suspension of disbelief is critical to a users enjoyment.
I think you're going a bit too far into this. What about all those NES games? None of them were trying to simulate realism, but lots of them were still way more fun than most games on the market today. Well in my opinion. :E
 
I agree with Choscura, despite the fact the at least 90% of gamers wouldn't want PERFECT realism, I'm in the 10%. I being a soldier and a gun collector get really annoyed when weapons are inaccuratly portrayed. DoD has done the best so far IMO as far as well-done weapons. But oh well, it's all fun anyway.
 
It has to do with playability. Sure it would be realistic if you went through a clip everytime you pressed the trigger, but would it be playable? Probably not. Do counter-terrorist squads travel individually, running all over the place? No. They go in in a group, in formation, with hours of briefing over the area and known location of hostiles. But average players don't have perfect CT knowledge, and would find all that boring. Modmakers are trying to be as realistic as possible without destroying peoples enjoyment. A successful mod is a balance between enjoyment and realism. That's all I've got to say.
 
Thankfully a lot of us are ignorant of the real life characterstics of guns. If i was a gun buff i'd also probably get annoyed at things like the FAMAS in CS:S not firing 36 rounds per second. Obviously with the map design as it is a gun that powerful would be completely ridiculous. Realistic yeah but the gameplay would be destroyed as FAMAS rambos kill 12 people with a 1 second burst. Gameplay always always always dictates the behaviour of the weapons.

DoD has done the best so far IMO as far as well-done weapons
Try playing Red Orchestra and you'll probably change your mind. But realistic games are usually extremely unpopular. Realism generally sucks ass and people want to escape it.
 
Choscura said:
i'm getting pretty sick of seeing a bunch of mods that- while brilliantly executed- do nothing new. i'm getting sick of seeing these bullshit 'what if' world war 2 mods, where they try to re-create everything down into the color of the hair on the soldiers. haven't we had about enough of these? its overrated, and overdone, and i'm sick of seeing and playing them. this also goes for this years favorite war, vietnam. the vietnam war was a bunch of people doing what they were told- or in many cases, ignoring what they were told and doing what they wanted- that was only exciting because these jungle primitives could beat an american superpowered military. on their own turf, using methods perfected centuries ago, fighting new recruits who couldn't pull the trigger to- literally- save their life. its not exciting playing a game based in a war where the 'bad guy' is twice as good as the 'good guy'. it seems like these people could at least come up with some good data on the persian gulf, or the panama incursion, or the drug busts in columbia, or even the war in afghanistan and iraq! do we REALLY need to re-do the wars we've already fought? jesus christ, this pisses me off.

I agree, World War II has bee done to death, and then resurrected several times and subjected to necrophilia. Vietnam is starting to be the same...

i'm also highly pissed at these afficianado types who- despite having never touched or in many cases even been NEAR a real gun (knowingly, and that gun in the holster on the police officers hip doesn't count, there's no round chambered, typically) think they know everything about the modern military assault rifles, or submachine guns, or pistols, or whatever their fancy is.

I don't think you need too much first hand experience if you're making a mod. There's so much information available on the Internet alone.

i'm so sick of seeing static weapons that- despite boasted realism- look nothing like the real thing, function nothing like it, have none of the flaws, and are the ultimate versatile weapon. it doesn't work that way. realism is having your gun jam when you need it most- because thats when it happens. when you're using it.

System Shock 2 had weapons that degrade over time and need maintanance, but it wasn't a really popular feature.
 
Choscura said:
i'm getting pretty sick of seeing a bunch of mods that- while brilliantly executed- do nothing new. i'm getting sick of seeing these bullshit 'what if' world war 2 mods, where they try to re-create everything down into the color of the hair on the soldiers. haven't we had about enough of these? its overrated, and overdone, and i'm sick of seeing and playing them. this also goes for this years favorite war, vietnam. the vietnam war was a bunch of people doing what they were told- or in many cases, ignoring what they were told and doing what they wanted- that was only exciting because these jungle primitives could beat an american superpowered military. on their own turf, using methods perfected centuries ago, fighting new recruits who couldn't pull the trigger to- literally- save their life. its not exciting playing a game based in a war where the 'bad guy' is twice as good as the 'good guy'. it seems like these people could at least come up with some good data on the persian gulf, or the panama incursion, or the drug busts in columbia, or even the war in afghanistan and iraq! do we REALLY need to re-do the wars we've already fought? jesus christ, this pisses me off.

i'm also highly pissed at these afficianado types who- despite having never touched or in many cases even been NEAR a real gun (knowingly, and that gun in the holster on the police officers hip doesn't count, there's no round chambered, typically) think they know everything about the modern military assault rifles, or submachine guns, or pistols, or whatever their fancy is. you want to know about these guns? go to a gun store and ask about going on a live-fire event. if your not in a highly liberal area (don't shoot here, the gas ejection will kill six beetles!) you should have no problem seeing many of the more prominant weapons used today. if you're making a mod with these guns in it, bring a camera and get some pictures, and then talk to the people about how they work and how they're used. i'm so sick of seeing static weapons that- despite boasted realism- look nothing like the real thing, function nothing like it, have none of the flaws, and are the ultimate versatile weapon. it doesn't work that way. realism is having your gun jam when you need it most- because thats when it happens. when you're using it.

if you want realism, you're going to have to know what the real thing is. remember the funny top spiky-blocky looking things on the submachine gun in hl2? thats called an RIF. rail inteface system. the RIF on most modern guns goes on the top, the sides, and the bottom, and is used to attach things such as lights, scopes, handles, laser target designators and cameras (combat photography), among other things. the target (on the gun) is, essentially real (it wouldn't have the crosshairs as viewed in the game, the crosshair is shown by a laser further forward in the device that has been calibrated to show-when looking through that small glass pane- where your bullet will probably hit. the submachine gun is also real: its an HK mp-7, recently introduced and not (as far as i know) in full production for any police or military force in the world. another thing about realism that bugs me is the fire rate for full-auto weapons. the french FAMAS (a good gun, despite being french) has a fire rate of 2200 rpm. it comes with a standard 20 or 30 round clip. lets think here for a minute: 2200.... divided by 60.... equals 36 or 37 rounds per SECOND. thats one squeeze of the trigger, a lot of lead goes bye-bye. a more standard speed is about 600 rpm: thats still ten rounds in a second. thats two or three times as fast as most games allow you to fire.

all this being said, i'd like to contribute a few resources. i don't want this ENTIRE thing to negativity. just most of it.

http://blackhawkindustries.com/
http://world.guns***/main-e.htm
http://perfectunion.com/forums/

those three site SHOULD be enough to answer most questions about modern tactics, gear, and weapons. the last one in particular, since its a forum filled with law enforcement officers, military personnel and gun collectors.

i'm glad i have that out of my system now.

For someone who acts like they know a lot about firearms, it is strange that you dont even know the difference between a magazine and a clip. Also the FAMAS has a rate of fire of 900-1100 rounds per minute, depending on the model. Not 2200 like you previously mentioned, ROFs like that are unheard of when it comes to conventional small arms.
 
I love realistic games, I don't like doom spray and pray type games.

I'll tell you what works for me, if I don't like a certain type of mod, I won't download it and play it. try that.
 
MisterFloppy said:
For someone who acts like they know a lot about firearms, it is strange that you dont even know the difference between a magazine and a clip. Also the FAMAS has a rate of fire of 900-1100 rounds per minute, depending on the model. Not 2200 like you previously mentioned, ROFs like that are unheard of when it comes to conventional small arms.

i never claimed to be always right, i was going on memory alone for that. thanks for the heads up on the famas thing. as for the difference between magazines and clips? i spend more time shooting with them than i do naming them. to me they both serve their purpose and thats all there is to it.
 
Who cares what you sick of seeing, thats your opinion and why should things change just because YOU don't like them.

Just f*ck off and play the Sims or something to be honest and we will play what we like. I don't play games for realism and accuracy, I play games to get away from the everyday same old shit and have some fun. Which is more or less what most people do.
 
m0nKeY said:
Who cares what you sick of seeing, thats your opinion and why should things change just because YOU don't like them.

Could you explain again the meaning of this messageboard?
 
I agree with Choscura, when I look at the line-up for mods I see lots of war mods. When I look at new games I see war games. It's tiring, been done to death and I'd rather play other games. But it doesn't matter what Choscura, me or anyone else thinks. War games sell like hotcakes and until they don't I'm out of luck.
 
if you dont like the games realism go play doom 1 you ****tard
 
2 words.... BALANCE ISSUES..... We don't live in a fair world...... is the world FUN? No it isn't, making a game basied on reality thus won't be FUN thus won't SELL.
 
games are made to put you into dangerous and unreal positions without risk of hurting yourself.

oh, and by the way before u start shouting, i have fired a gun before
 
if you want that level of realism go play a simulation game...most people want balanced, and fun gameplay if i wanted the real thing i'd do the real thing, but i simply prefer fraging tons of people over worrying about how to work my gun

gun jamming...... is that really another excuse you want to hear when u frag someone? or want to experience when a noob kills you because your gun jammed

people make WWII mods because thats what they like and people play it.....try making a mod you like
 
.Transmit said:
if you dont like the games realism go play doom 1 you ****tard
Comments like that will not be tolerated here. Continue with that kind of attitude and language and you will be banned.
 
I never ever want to know as much about guns as these people do 8o|

My personal opinion is that gameplay is more important than realism could ever be. If certain realistic elements enhance the gameplay, then sure. But realism for it's own sake doesn't appeal to me.
 
gun people scare you? to be honest, if i had to choose between a person who knew guns and a person who didn't, i 'd be more scared of the person who didn't, because-given a dangerous situation- they won't know what to do. then theres the classic saying that 'if guns cause crime, then mine are defective'.
 
Except the person who knows about guns is more likely to own a gun and therefore more likely to shoot you with a gun, whereas a person who has nothing to do with guns could at the worst stab you or maybe smack you around. Although the worse case would be a person who owns a gun but doesn't know about them. I'd be really afraid of that person. Although they'd probably miss. Statistically with domestic firearms you're more likely to shoot someone you know than a criminal.
 
Dan said:
Except the person who knows about guns is more likely to own a gun and therefore more likely to shoot you with a gun, whereas a person who has nothing to do with guns could at the worst stab you or maybe smack you around. Although the worse case would be a person who owns a gun but doesn't know about them. I'd be really afraid of that person. Although they'd probably miss. Statistically with domestic firearms you're more likely to shoot someone you know than a criminal.

the only *normal* reason a gun would be out in a situation like this would be self defense and defense of others/property. thats the only time, within the confines of law, that a loaded gun is pointed at another human being. being trained with and fluent in the use of guns from any official training place in EXISTENCE stresses safety- not form, not ability, not anything else- above anything. i know from experience, if you are careless with where the muzzle of a gun is pointed at one of these places you will endu up on the ground before you can say 'oops' and be done shooting that day. as for being more likely to shoot somebody you know than a criminal, this isn't surprising, considering that owning a gun doesn't mean knowing how to use it. a basic firearms course should be mandatory for buying one, but unfortunately isn't.

also point of reference: sweden (maybe denmark, but one of the norse countries) has mandatory military service when you turn eighteen. when you come out, you keep the gun you were issued. that country has the lowest crime rate in the world, simply because burgulars know before they go into a house that if they get caught, they probably aren't coming out alive. think about that.
 
That Sweden policy sounds like a good one!

It's the whole American thing of some kind of right to have automatic weapons around just for fun that is slightly disturbing. It's just like a big culture difference between over here in the UK and over there.
 
Choscura, that about "sweden (maybe denmark)" is not true. You're not allowed to own a weapon without licence and you have to have a damn good reason to have one, like to be a hunter and a regular member of a gun club. Also you cant shoot burgulars just because they are in your house. They must threaten your life so you can shoot them...etc... Military service isnt mandatory either.

Anyways back to topic, I'd like more realism in games so that damage of bullets is realistic. When I surprise someone in CSS I want them to die, not trun arround and kill me, even thought I put 3-4 bullets in them!
 
Choscura said:
gun people scare you? to be honest, if i had to choose between a person who knew guns and a person who didn't, i 'd be more scared of the person who didn't, because-given a dangerous situation- they won't know what to do.

There are, of course, many situations which are "dangerous" which do not require the use of a gun, and in fact to which the skills learnt from handling a gun do not apply. Perhaps you are arguing that being a "gun person" makes you automatically supercompetent in all fields relevant to survival in all situations?

then theres the classic saying that 'if guns cause crime, then mine are defective'.

Guns do not cause crime. On the other hand, they can make some kinds of crime easier to commit, and make some other forms of crime more dangerous to bystanders and the population in general.
 
Choscura said:
also point of reference: sweden (maybe denmark, but one of the norse countries) has mandatory military service when you turn eighteen. when you come out, you keep the gun you were issued. that country has the lowest crime rate in the world, simply because burgulars know before they go into a house that if they get caught, they probably aren't coming out alive. think about that.

Not in sweden, we have mandatory tests when you turn 18, military personel is then picked due to those tests. You do get to keep a lot of stuff when you leave the service (Boots, clothes etc...) but NO firearms. Owning a gun is an incredible difficult process, the only one I know that owns one has a hunting license and thus owns a hunting rifle. As far as I know we still have VERY low crime rates compared to USA.
 
while i haven't done much more than hold a gun or do research on them i myself have not ever really fired one. Closest thing i have is a hunting bow that i every now and then go target shooting with. Although when i get some independant income i would like to own a gun.

At any rate I personally enjoy games that go for accurate portrails of the weapons. I consider myself a realism geek in that respect. However if realism makes that weapon into a n00bcannon then gameplay should win out.

So i'd have to say that I prefer games that aim for realism rather than games that are totally realistic.
 
we can't have automatic weapons. we haven't had them for about seventy years, without permits (there are exceptions, but thats the general rule). we in america laugh at the UK law enforcement, with such jokes as 'stop! or i'll say stop again!' or 'with all those cameras, they might actually catch the guy that killed you! shame about not being able to defend yourself.'

aoanla- if you can't figure out that by 'dangerous' i mean 'requiring self defense or defense of others', then i'm glad your not a gun person and hope theres never a situation where anybody else depends on you to defend them. nothing personal, but i don't think you could do it.
 
Choscura said:
we can't have automatic weapons. we haven't had them for about seventy years, without permits (there are exceptions, but thats the general rule). we in america laugh at the UK law enforcement, with such jokes as 'stop! or i'll say stop again!' or 'with all those cameras, they might actually catch the guy that killed you! shame about not being able to defend yourself.'

aoanla- if you can't figure out that by 'dangerous' i mean 'requiring self defense or defense of others', then i'm glad your not a gun person and hope theres never a situation where anybody else depends on you to defend them. nothing personal, but i don't think you could do it.

you must have voted for bush :dozey:
i'd take tony blair over bush neday :E
you may make fun of the UK but their crime rate is lower....one reason why it is because no guns....police don't need guns because criminals don't have them either...and when trying to make a point make sure you know what your talking about first and not just assume no one knows otherwise.....it just makes you look stupid

and i live in us not uk
 
err... if its a crime to have guns in the uk... then only criminals have them. ever heard of the IRA? they invented the car bomb, i'd be very surprised if they didn't have guns, especially considering they were supplied by the soviet union in the eightees and haven't been all accounted for. as for assuming that no one knows otherwise? i'm only going by what i've heard. explain how that's stupid.

and just for the hell of it, i'd like to put this back on track.

this is about games and mods, not various countries domestic policies concerning firearms.
 
DeFiLeR8383 said:
you must have voted for bush :dozey:
i'd take tony blair over bush neday :E
you may make fun of the UK but their crime rate is lower....one reason why it is because no guns....police don't need guns because criminals don't have them either...and when trying to make a point make sure you know what your talking about first and not just assume no one knows otherwise.....it just makes you look stupid

and i live in us not uk

Actually, the police in the UK are going through some reforms. They are now being issued firearms to deal with the outbreak of crime. As it turns out, the UK's prior policies have led them to the current situation. A while ago, they made everyone register their weapon, then they collected and destroyed them, by that time, the only people that had firearms were the criminals. So now they're in a bit of a pickle.

Im fine with people having a handgun/shotgun in the house for protection but automatic weapons and rifles are really overkill for civilian use and defense. People need to be smart and responsible with guns. However, America seems to lack that critical combination.

Now on to the games. I like realistic games but to a certain extent. I play games for enjoyment and as a form of escape, not to simulate the real world. Games that strive to be 100% authentic and real aren't that fun. Just my 2 cents. :)
 
Dude, the first post, was kinda lame. PEOPLE LIKE MAKING MODS! Is there a problem with them making some with new feutures? If theres to many for you, THEN DONT PAY ATTENTION! Noob.
 
I think one of the main reasons the UK cops have had no need for guns in the past is due to their culture. It's hard to explain, but I think they're just generally not as violent of people as us Americans. However, it seems lately that they're becoming a little more like us in that respect. Back on topic, I prefer both gameplay and unrealistic oriented mods just as much as I do all out realism.
 
thefiznut said:
I think one of the main reasons the UK cops have had no need for guns in the past is due to their culture. It's hard to explain, but I think they're just generally not as violent of people as us Americans. However, it seems lately that they're becoming a little more like us in that respect. Back on topic, I prefer both gameplay and unrealistic oriented mods just as much as I do all out realism.

I agree with you. People in Europe just have more respect for others. Here in America, no one has any respect for other people. We owe a lot to the British in terms of modern police. They started one of the first, if not the first, police force. And another thing, Europe has been involved in wars since the dawn of man so I think they know all about war and violence. America is still young and immature.
 
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