New abuse photos found

[GiaOmerta]

Here's your link:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/bw.htm

 

[Tim F]

Thank you for the link. The mobile labs story has been completely discredited. Those trailers had no relationship whatsoever to biological weapons. You can rest assured that I've seen interior shots of those trailers, and I work with biological cultures, and there's no way that human pathogens could have been grown there. The design works for growing hydrogen for artillery balloons, but if you tried to grow pathogens it would be a fast race to see who got killed first, the pathogens or the lab workers.

David Kay declared that he found no evidence of WMD stockpiles in Iraq. Not before the war and not after.

 

[GiaOmerta]

'In Iraq' is the keyword.

Kay alleges Syria connection

Kay also raised the possibility -- one he first discussed in a weekend interview with "The Sunday Telegraph" of London -- that clues about banned weapons programs might reside across Iraq's western border.

"There is ample evidence of movement to Syria before the war -- satellite photographs, reports on the ground of a constant stream of trucks, cars, rail traffic across the border. We simply don't know what was moved," Kay said.

But, he said, "the Syrian government there has shown absolutely no interest in helping us resolve this issue."

In an exclusive interview with The Sunday Telegraph published on January 25, 2004, Dr. David Kay, the former head of the Iraq Survey Group, said there was evidence that unspecified materials had been moved to Syria shortly before the start of the war to overthrow Saddam. "We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons," he said. "But we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD programme. Precisely what went to Syria, and what has happened to it, is a major issue that needs to be resolved."

 

[Raziaar]

David Kay declared that he found no evidence of WMD stockpiles in Iraq. Not before the war and not after.

Well, many of the inspectors also complained that the Iraqi government only allowed them to inspect that which the Iraqi government wanted to, and forbid them from inspecting other areas of interest. Sounded suspicious to me when I first heard it.

 

[gh0st]

Things like this, for instance.

Or this jackass right here.

oh me oh my that is HORRIBLE... why... they appear to be hooded... i cant believe this. one man is SMILING while standing next to a "detainee." WHAT A ****ING ASSHOLE HES SMILING. if these are the only 2 pics they have, this will get tossed out of the courtroom, and i will laugh. this isnt torture, come on. i pity you guys, i cant imagine what you guys would do if you got a sprained ankle or a splinter... jeez, what a bunch of pussies. THIS IS NOT TORTURE BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION.

"the photographs found by the AP do not necessarily show anything illegal, according to experts in the laws of war who reviewed photos at AP's request."
alright, so its bullshit. torture is simply applied for dramatic effect. great.

 

[CptStern]

Stern if your child was taken from you and these means of interrogation would guarantee the location of your child and he's safe return. I'm sure your view of these drastic measures would change.

"if the queen had balls he'd be king" ..dont talk about "if"s ..I'm not a soldier, I'm not in that position to make that judgement ..I'm not talking about individual acts of torture here, but rather a SYSTEMATIC pattern of abuse that is sanctioned by the CIA

If a captured individual holds critical data, that which could potentially save lives. The information he holds is valuable and he's human rights should for the sack of humanity be violated.

who makes that judgement? who are you to decide if it's in "humanities" best interest There is absolutely NO evidence that any of the iraqis tortured were for "humanitarian" reasons ...see how silly that sounds?

Knowledge is power.

The idiots who are doing this for shit and giggles should be punished.

But, like I said. Critical data. By all means.

bullshit, it's passed on down by the CIA, many military experts have pointed that the gaurdsmen used CIA torture tactics. I t wasnt a "isolated" thing, it was deliberate

 

[burner69]

Firstly; stop calling the people being tortured terrorists. The majority are members of the Iraq army; they are the opposition, no doubt, but they are only doing their job, and what they believe in. They are the opposing force, not terrorists.

Secondly, do you seriously think if they're carefully extracting critical data from detainees they've got time to smile, take photos, arse about, and make them pose in sexual positions with eachother? If they have reason to believe an individual has vital info that could potentially save lives, I would say fair play to torture. However the average Iraqi solider will not have vital evidence; and systematically humiliating and torturing them is simply evil.

Thirdly: "Oh no he's smiling by them". Those people with "Oh no! only bags on their heads" are likely terrirfied. They will have heard the stories, seen the photos of prisoners beaten half to death, have dogs set on them, electrocuted, they are terrified and YOU'RE laughing at them. Remember the sandcastle of the WTC after 9/11. There was uproar at that here; guess what they were thinking; "Oh no we've built a sandcastle, what a shame!"

Fourth (and final, for now, promise) 14'000 dead, minimum. I think we can safely say it is likely to be a few thousand more; by comparing to the other estimates, and including the unrecorded deaths.
THAT'S A HELL OF A LOT OF DEAD PEOPLE! Not only that, we killed them under the pretense of WMDs, that we initially gave them, they appear to have used (which warrents a war, but sooner, and at a less unstable time) and now run out of. NOT ONLY THAT, we're now torturing them.

Spread peace guys! Blame a country for being evil (watch Iran unfold), claim they have a reason to attack people (which they rarely do), blame it on a minority of the country, but make sure everyone back home thinks its the majority, then go over and blow the shit out of them.

 

[Raziaar]

Spread peace guys! Blame a country for being evil (watch Iran unfold), claim they have a reason to attack people (which they rarely do), blame it on a minority of the country, but make sure everyone back home thinks its the majority, then go over and blow the shit out of them.

I don't think anybody here thinks Iraq is an evil country. So don't even try to pitch that crap.

 

[burner69]

Pitch what crap? It's true. I've watched tanks roll into Afgan to kill a very small minority of people.

Again and again I hear people calling the Iraqi army terrorists.

And I've heard at least twice this week Iran being called a "Terrorist" country.

I can provide quotes if you really want me to.

 

[Raziaar]

I can provide quotes if you really want me to.

From people on these forums? Please do. I haven't been here as much reading every topic, but I don't think i've heard anybody calling Iraq or Iran in general terrorist countries.

 

[burner69]

From people on these forums? Please do. I haven't been here as much reading every topic, but I don't think i've heard anybody calling Iraq or Iran in general terrorist countries.

ghOst referring to Iraqi soliders being tortured: "when a terrorist in iraq gets handled roughly"

Egs policy for Iran "bomb iran, kill of the imams, there"

gh0st on definition of terrorist: "there are many foreign fighters - terrorists"

KoreBolteR: "look, you know iran WILL make nukes, while UK and US will keep them out of TERRORIST hands like IRAN."

That took 2mins. Probably many more knocking about; shall I continue? And not to mention the fact that as teh Iraq war started MANY americans thought Saddam was responsible for 9/11, Even members of the bush admin were saying he had strong terrorist links, while bush was starting to deny the claims. If you really want I can try and find that, might take a bit of time, but it's in here somewhere.

 

[seinfeldrules]

What do you call the 'soldiers' setting up roadside bombs targeting civilians? How do you refer to the people that killed 68 innocent Iraqis since Friday alone?

 

[burner69]

As far as I'm aware they are the work of terrorists. NOT the Iraqi army.

 

[burner69]

Also many people targetted are those working for the Americans. These people are viewed by many as traiters and are, evilly so, killed.

If that is the case its a tough one, they ARE terrorists, but are killing who they see as their opposition.

Tough one to call. I wouldn't like to say, though I wouldn't dispute if I saw it WAS iraqi soliders doing the bombs, and you called those ones terrorists.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Well I dont think the term soldier really fits at all. I would classify as insurgent or terrorist depending on the situation. There isnt really a chain of command they follow, nor are they all that organized. They arent part of an army anymore either.

 

[burner69]

But many are defending the country from being overtaken by westerners; pure and simple. They are doing what they believe is right.

Many people here can't see that not everyone wants to be a westerner. (but not you, I don't think, Seinfeld)

 

[CptStern]

Newflash: oh oh more proof the abuse is far more widespread than they'd have us believe

FBI agents witnessed "highly aggressive" interrogations and mistreatment of terror suspects at the U.S. prison camp in Cuba starting in 2002

 

[Brassm0nkey]

They torture us, we torture them. It's evidence of the dark, dank corner of the human mind that unfortunately exists on all sides. BUT it doesn't invalidate our purpose in Iraq.

Iran is indeed a terrorist sponsering nation and should be toppled in the same vein as Iraq. Nations like this only stand in the way of peace and the general progression of mankind as a whole.

 

[burner69]

They torture us, we torture them. It's evidence of the dark, dank corner of the human mind that unfortunately exists on all sides. BUT it doesn't invalidate our purpose in Iraq.

Iran is indeed a terrorist sponsering nation and should be toppled in the same vein as Iraq. Nations like this only stand in the way of peace and the general progression of mankind as a whole.

It's important to me because we go in under the flag of peace, decalring war on sick nations that torture and kill innocent people. Then we go in and torture and kill Iraqi soliders. I must be missing something here.

But I agree with out, human nature must be sick somewhere, I just hope one day we sort it out.

 

[Brassm0nkey]

It's important to me because we go in under the flag of peace, decalring war on sick nations that torture and kill innocent people. Then we go in and torture and kill Iraqi soliders. I must be missing something here.

Let me start by saying I don't mean to downplay it's importance at all. Your right it is important and should be important to everyone. But not because to shows us for the hypocrites we are.

Yes we go in under a flag of liberation and the promise of a brighter future for Iraq, and that is our ultimate intent. But that is not made untrue when a minority of the people we send there to get the job done indulge their darker delights from time to time on the enemy. Honestly, anyone who did not expect to see this type of thing going into the war is very nieve. It doesn't mean that american forces are particularly despicable, nor does it reflect the intent of the greater American forces. You will get this from ANY military force going into ANY conflict for ANY reason.

In the end, despite the actions of a few individuals, we are there with good intent and to bring about a positive change, which we will accomplish. It's a messy process but the mess is unavoidable and ultimately acceptable, for the outcome is much more favourable than an Iraq run by a murderous dictator.

Not only will we be improving the quality of life in Iraq, but more importantly we will be igniting the spark of freedom in a region rank with diabolical rulers and a misguided populace whose minds have been raped repeatedly by destructive and anti-progressive philosophies.

 

[Spartan]

I thought the SEALs were hardcore professionals. I guess not.

 

[gh0st]

I thought the SEALs were hardcore professionals. I guess not.

no they are newbs because in CS this guy named player died while he was a seal. saddam was middle eastern... thus... all middle easterners must not be hardcore professionals!!11 idiot.

 

[Spartan]

no they are newbs because in CS this guy named player died while he was a seal. saddam was middle eastern... thus... all middle easterners must not be hardcore professionals!!11 idiot.

What the hell are you talking about?

 

[gh0st]

What the hell are you talking about?

ok let me rephrase that. why would you judge a group of people by one persons actions. to say SEALs arent professional is outstandingly stupid.

 

[Spartan]

ok let me rephrase that. why would you judge a group of people by one persons actions. to say SEALs arent professional is outstandingly stupid.

Well they don't seem like professionals to me.

 

[burner69]

Let me start by saying I don't mean to downplay it's importance at all. Your right it is important and should be important to everyone. But not because to shows us for the hypocrites we are.

Yes we go in under a flag of liberation and the promise of a brighter future for Iraq, and that is our ultimate intent. But that is not made untrue when a minority of the people we send there to get the job done indulge their darker delights from time to time on the enemy. Honestly, anyone who did not expect to see this type of thing going into the war is very nieve. It doesn't mean that american forces are particularly despicable, nor does it reflect the intent of the greater American forces. You will get this from ANY military force going into ANY conflict for ANY reason.

In the end, despite the actions of a few individuals, we are there with good intent and to bring about a positive change, which we will accomplish. It's a messy process but the mess is unavoidable and ultimately acceptable, for the outcome is much more favourable than an Iraq run by a murderous dictator.

Not only will we be improving the quality of life in Iraq, but more importantly we will be igniting the spark of freedom in a region rank with diabolical rulers and a misguided populace whose minds have been raped repeatedly by destructive and anti-progressive philosophies.

OK, before I start, I want you to know I agree with some of what you say - and you're clearly a good guy who's hearts in the right place. My argument here is to raise points, and get a debate, cuz I feel these points need raising.

I don't think the American forces are despicable at all. I think they're very brave and don't doubt they believe what they're doing is right. Yet if they do believe that giving peace is right, they should certainly practise it. On a personal level. I'm aware that un4tunatly some individuals will let the side down.

What bothers me most is when the powers that be put them in situations where it is easy for them to torture, by removing their commanders from prisons, and now it seems making some methods of torture LEGAL! Torture, legal. No one else find that sick?


If we had gone to Iraq to overthrow Saddam, I would agree with your statement about 'good cause'.
We didn't.
We went in:
* Just after it seemed Osama was not going to be found, we needed something to show for our war on terror
* Just as our oil supply started drying up
* Just after the Afghan war, leaving the country without suitable military force to hold peace, and therefore causing it to crumble, and allowing Al-Qaeuda to regroup and reform
* Under false information, that wouldn't hold in a court of law. If you suspect someone MIGHT have killed a man, you don't imprison him. You can't go to war, on a MIGHT. You need strong proof.
* Well aware that Saddam had no intention of attacking the US, or indeed any western country.
* Under equipped, compromising the safety of our brave soliders
* Being told Saddam was helping terrorists, he wasn't
* At an unstable time, increasing hatred for the west
* At a time when we could barely handle the active terrorists from Afghan and other places. War with Iraq stirred up a hornets nest.
* Under a blaket of misinformation, lies and half truths, but came out the other side saying we'd freed the country. However now we're about to put another idiot in power, and watch the whole place just go back down the drain.
* Soon after 9/11, making it seem more like, "You attack our country, we'll annihiate any country we suspect of being involved tenfold." rather than "making the world safer"

Now, I wonder how they'll justify Iran?
They want to make nuclear weapons.

Is anyone else surprised they want the comfort of knowing the US won't just storm in and take over? If I was Iran I'd want ten nukes, but I certianly wouldn't use them, not when the US has hundreds, and could easily wipe my country off the map.

 

[Gray Fox]

OK, before I start, I want you to know I agree with some of what you say - and you're clearly a good guy who's hearts in the right place. My argument here is to raise points, and get a debate, cuz I feel these points need raising.

I don't think the American forces are despicable at all. I think they're very brave and don't doubt they believe what they're doing is right. Yet if they do believe that giving peace is right, they should certainly practise it. On a personal level. I'm aware that un4tunatly some individuals will let the side down.

What bothers me most is when the powers that be put them in situations where it is easy for them to torture, by removing their commanders from prisons, and now it seems making some methods of torture LEGAL! Torture, legal. No one else find that sick?


If we had gone to Iraq to overthrow Saddam, I would agree with your statement about 'good cause'.
We didn't.
We went in:
* Just after it seemed Osama was not going to be found, we needed something to show for our war on terror
* Just as our oil supply started drying up
* Just after the Afghan war, leaving the country without suitable military force to hold peace, and therefore causing it to crumble, and allowing Al-Qaeuda to regroup and reform
* Under false information, that wouldn't hold in a court of law. If you suspect someone MIGHT have killed a man, you don't imprison him. You can't go to war, on a MIGHT. You need strong proof.
* Well aware that Saddam had no intention of attacking the US, or indeed any western country.
* Under equipped, compromising the safety of our brave soliders
* Being told Saddam was helping terrorists, he wasn't
* At an unstable time, increasing hatred for the west
* At a time when we could barely handle the active terrorists from Afghan and other places. War with Iraq stirred up a hornets nest.
* Under a blaket of misinformation, lies and half truths, but came out the other side saying we'd freed the country. However now we're about to put another idiot in power, and watch the whole place just go back down the drain.
* Soon after 9/11, making it seem more like, "You attack our country, we'll annihiate any country we suspect of being involved tenfold." rather than "making the world safer"

Now, I wonder how they'll justify Iran?
They want to make nuclear weapons.

Is anyone else surprised they want the comfort of knowing the US won't just storm in and take over? If I was Iran I'd want ten nukes, but I certianly wouldn't use them, not when the US has hundreds, and could easily wipe my country off the map.

I just can't stop quoting you for emphesis. :bounce: :thumbs: :thumbs:

 

[ryanmw]

WOW...you guys are really young arent you..lemme ask you this...of all the people here saying these soldiers are jackass's....please make a post saying you are currently in the military...and please post what all information, such as rank battallion etc etc....because i dont think you guys realize what war is about..its not about a bunch of tree huggers giving sympothy to the opponent....by all means the men in those pictures are NOT violating the Geneva Convention....everyone here is acting like theyre 12 years old...I sure hope a draft doesnt come because I would hate to see little girls like you go to war...these guys are mentally retrained to be killers...thats theyre job...if you cant handle it, please dont post crap like this and cry or say "omg its just not right!"........my best friend is stationed in Iraq and i hear stories all the time...trust me..that place is somewhere you sissies cant handle in the state of mind you are in right now...so dont go bashing our Soldiers, especially Navy SEALS because of a picture showing a bloodied prisoner....why dont you go see what they do to American prisoners...then come back here and see if you feel sympathy towards them...its war..get over it

 

[Absinthe]

WOW...you guys are really young arent you..lemme ask you this...of all the people here saying these soldiers are jackass's....please make a post saying you are currently in the military...and please post what all information, such as rank battallion etc etc....because i dont think you guys realize what war is about..its not about a bunch of tree huggers giving sympothy to the opponent....by all means the men in those pictures are NOT violating the Geneva Convention....everyone here is acting like theyre 12 years old...I sure hope a draft doesnt come because I would hate to see little girls like you go to war...these guys are mentally retrained to be killers...thats theyre job...if you cant handle it, please dont post crap like this and cry or say "omg its just not right!"........my best friend is stationed in Iraq and i hear stories all the time...trust me..that place is somewhere you sissies cant handle in the state of mind you are in right now...so dont go bashing our Soldiers, especially Navy SEALS because of a picture showing a bloodied prisoner....why dont you go see what they do to American prisoners...then come back here and see if you feel sympathy towards them...its war..get over it

Please remove your bloated testosterone-pumped ego from my presence. Its jackass nature might be contagious.

 

[ryanmw]

You must remove your sickly feminine estrogen inflamed presence from this thread in order to get rid of me..sorry....jackass or not..i am probably much older and more experienced in the world than you are...and realize the difference between war and injustice

 

[burner69]

WOW...you guys are really young arent you..lemme ask you this...of all the people here saying these soldiers are jackass's....please make a post saying you are currently in the military...and please post what all information, such as rank battallion etc etc....because i dont think you guys realize what war is about..its not about a bunch of tree huggers giving sympothy to the opponent....by all means the men in those pictures are NOT violating the Geneva Convention....everyone here is acting like theyre 12 years old...I sure hope a draft doesnt come because I would hate to see little girls like you go to war...these guys are mentally retrained to be killers...thats theyre job...if you cant handle it, please dont post crap like this and cry or say "omg its just not right!"........my best friend is stationed in Iraq and i hear stories all the time...trust me..that place is somewhere you sissies cant handle in the state of mind you are in right now...so dont go bashing our Soldiers, especially Navy SEALS because of a picture showing a bloodied prisoner....why dont you go see what they do to American prisoners...then come back here and see if you feel sympathy towards them...its war..get over it

The war is "War on terror", it is being fought, so we're told, to make the world a more peaceful place.

Killing civilians, torturing detainees, and breaking geneva codes of practise should not be happening on such a wide scale if we're meant to be a 'peace' bringing coalition.

Terrorists seem to agree, as the number of attacks are going up up up in opposition to this 'war'.

And I've done some basic military training, and yes, you are trained to be an effective killer. You are NOT trained to strip people naked and make them pose with their allies degrading them. If you are condoning that you are sick, and twisted, and evil.

If you'd bothered to read any of the previous posts made by us evil do-gooder "tree huggin" anti-bushists you'll see we have problems with all forms of torture, not just American. But its because many people don't seem to mind it going on here, saying its all part of war, when clearly it shouldn't be.

If you're happy to say war is fine, these people should be tortured, only military types can have a say in the matter, and anyone opposing this is a child - you are severely misguided.

Get your facts straight. Stop supporting evil ideals. And stop insulting and threatening people who don't think the same as you.

 

[burner69]

You must remove your sickly feminine estrogen inflamed presence from this thread in order to get rid of me..sorry....jackass or not..i am probably much older and more experienced in the world than you are...and realize the difference between war and injustice

You don't sound it

 

[ryanmw]

The war is "War on terror", it is being fought, so we're told, to make the world a more peaceful place.

Killing civilians, torturing detainees, and breaking geneva codes of practise should not be happening on such a wide scale if we're meant to be a 'peace' bringing coalition.

Terrorists seem to agree, as the number of attacks are going up up up in opposition to this 'war'.

And I've done some basic military training, and yes, you are trained to be an effective killer. You are NOT trained to strip people naked and make them pose with their allies degrading them. If you are condoning that you are sick, and twisted, and evil.

If you'd bothered to read any of the previous posts made by us evil do-gooder "tree huggin" anti-bushists you'll see we have problems with all forms of torture, not just American. But its because many people don't seem to mind it going on here, saying its all part of war, when clearly it shouldn't be.

If you're happy to say war is fine, these people should be tortured, only military types can have a say in the matter, and anyone opposing this is a child - you are severely misguided.

Get your facts straight. Stop supporting evil ideals. And stop insulting and threatening people who don't think the same as you.

how old are you..what military training have you had, and where were you stationed.....paintball doesnt count as military training


EDIT: This same thing happened in vietnam....alot of people hated the war and didnt support it...when the soldiers came home they didnt come home to a country who was proud of them and believed in their cause..they came home to riots and disdain...but these guys are doing their jobs...how do you know someone higher up was not telling them to torture these people...you dont know that...you werent there...you can cry all you want about how its injust but theres nothing you can do to change it...not even the UN can...it happens..either you accept why its happening..or you fail to understand why its happening and what exactly is happening..those pictures may be out of context..you dont know..so until you do know its not fair to judge these individuals....only witnesses can..and if they are brought to trial and proven guilty..then they were in the wrong..if they are innocent..then they are not in the wrong..simple as that

 

[Absinthe]

You must remove your sickly feminine estrogen inflamed presence from this thread in order to get rid of me..sorry....jackass or not..i am probably much older and more experienced in the world than you are...and realize the difference between war and injustice

I have estrogen for not supporting torture. Gotcha.

Go ahead and assume that you are older and more experienced than I am. It's not like your age is going to give you any credibility in my eyes.

But hey, couldn't you be doing something more manly and non-sissy? Like cracking open a cold Bud while running over small animals in your truck?

how old are you..what military training have you had, and where were you stationed.....paintball doesnt count as military training

What ****ing difference would it make?

 

[ryanmw]

read edit 2 posts above...and it makes a difference because this is the ****ing internet...anyone can say theyve had military training...hell i was stationed in Guam for 8 years ..they forgot about me and i had to swim back

 

[Absinthe]

read edit 2 posts above...and it makes a difference because this is the ****ing internet...anyone can say theyve had military training...hell i was stationed in Guam for 8 years ..they forgot about me and i had to swim back

No, I mean what ****ing difference would it make if he's had military training or not?

 

[burner69]

how old are you..what military training have you had, and where were you stationed.....paintball doesnt count as military training

AH HA HA HA! You are so funny... and old and wise... and yet... YOU CAN'T READ?

Sorry, I'm going to shred you now cuz I think ur an idiot.

I said I was 19, if you can't read that there's something wrong. Also, if you think you being older than me automatically makes anything you say of more revelvence, f*ck off. I'm making points I believe in, backed with facts. You came in ranting calling us all pussies for not supporting torture. Get a grip on reality.

I was in the ACF (Army Cadet force) for four years, which involved working with both the territorial and regular army in exercises.

I also have a friend fighting in Iraq, so before you go accusing me of knocking our brave lads out there, try reading previous posts. We're knocking the idiots in government who get us into these messes then allow torture to go on; not the people who are fighting hard for the cause they've had thrust upon them.

All you seem to have done is come here to take the piss out of people. Although you have missed the entire point of our argument; we don't support the war in the first place... we support the people fighting, on both sides, cuz war is hell, and they shouldn't be forced into such dangerous situations.

I wonder, though, do you support any of the following??
* Leaving Afghanistan to rot, making it the 2nd worst country in the world
* Not leaving enough troops behind in Afghan to prevent Al-Qaueda regrouping.
* Lying to your people about Saddams terrorist links
* Using flimsy evidence to send both your friend and mine on a Wild WMD hunt.
* Calling Saddam an evil man when we put him in power, and are about to put a similar man in power again
* Legalising torture
* Attacking Iraq and soon Iran at a very unstable time, drawing out terrorists that we cannot handle
* Owning nuclear weapons ourselves, but deciding other countries cannot have them
* Arming smaller countries, then waging war on them because they have these weapons
* Scaring your own people with two year old "terror warnings" to keep support of the war up
* Not properly equipping our boys
* Removing officials from prisons to allow torture to go ahead
* Covering up casualty listings of both coalition and iraqis.
* Creating mass bigotism; lumping opposing armies in the bag of terrorist
* Not even trying to co-operate with the insurgants, or trying to find a peaceful solution
* Giving countries demands, then, when they meet them, going to war with them

Agree with any of that?

 

[ryanmw]

because in the military, you are in a brotherhood...why do you think most everyone in the military voted for bush...because they believe in the cause..and believe in doing what it takes to achieve a mission...they dont look at enemies the way you do...they see them as a threat to not only themselves but to their brothers...any information they can get out of these prisoners is vital to their survival...its not about ethics..or codes of humanity..its about survival...in Felujah...your ****ed if you dont know where the enemy is...so believe me..lots worse goes on than what your seeing in these pictures...like i said..some people can handle it..some cant...you seriously cant expect to believe the guys sitting in the UN office chairs can oversee everything that goes on...it wont happen...as long as there is war..there will be civilians killed, prisoners tortured, people mutilated..its all part of it...the victors are usually the ones who gain the most information about the opponent....trust me..if you didnt have these soldiers..you'd be living in a 3rd world country right now...starving for food..but instead you sit spoiled in wealth able to play video games and surf the internet....i would be thanking these heros if I were you..rather than finding every which way to cut them down

edit: your post above this one proves my point even further....you have found every way possible to make these men at fault and highlight that most of what they are doing is wrong...if your in the military and feel so strongly..why dont you get off this message board and go talk to your commanding officers ...ask them why all of this is happening..then come back to me and tell me what they said...until you do that everything you have said is moot

 

[burner69]

how old are you..what military training have you had, and where were you stationed.....paintball doesnt count as military training


EDIT: This same thing happened in vietnam....alot of people hated the war and didnt support it...when the soldiers came home they didnt come home to a country who was proud of them and believed in their cause..they came home to riots and disdain...but these guys are doing their jobs...how do you know someone higher up was not telling them to torture these people...you dont know that...you werent there...you can cry all you want about how its injust but theres nothing you can do to change it...not even the UN can...it happens..either you accept why its happening..or you fail to understand why its happening and what exactly is happening..those pictures may be out of context..you dont know..so until you do know its not fair to judge these individuals....only witnesses can..and if they are brought to trial and proven guilty..then they were in the wrong..if they are innocent..then they are not in the wrong..simple as that

Incidently, I strongly support the soliders out there. As made clear many times before.

We've also said that we blame the government in general for the torture, through either lack of discipline, altering of law, or turning a blind eye.

If soliders come back with little support, you can blame the government for sending them on a war very few people agree with. I personally shall be sending money to whatever charity is set up for them.

(Incidently, I donated £50 this year to the poppy appeal. I'm a student and get £60 a week. So don't go saying I don't support our troops.)

 

[burner69]

because in the military, you are in a brotherhood...why do you think most everyone in the military voted for bush...because they believe in the cause..and believe in doing what it takes to achieve a mission...they dont look at enemies the way you do...they see them as a threat to not only themselves but to their brothers...any information they can get out of these prisoners is vital to their survival...its not about ethics..or codes of humanity..its about survival...in Felujah...your ****ed if you dont know where the enemy is...so believe me..lots worse goes on than what your seeing in these pictures...like i said..some people can handle it..some cant...you seriously cant expect to believe the guys sitting in the UN office chairs can oversee everything that goes on...it wont happen...as long as there is war..there will be civilians killed, prisoners tortured, people mutilated..its all part of it...the victors are usually the ones who gain the most information about the opponent....trust me..if you didnt have these soldiers..you'd be living in a 3rd world country right now...starving for food..but instead you sit spoiled in wealth able to play video games and surf the internet....i would be thanking these heros if I were you..rather than finding every which way to cut them down

Ahhh I see. So stripping them down, and getting them to suck eachothers cocks, probably making them WANT to die, is ok then.

If there's a reason to believe someone has valuable info, I see no problem with using extreme methods to extract it - but only in these circumstances (btw I'm repeating myself here, kindly read the rest of my posts before accusing me of things I've already explained).

On a serious note, I do have a lot of respect for you, being in the military, I just don't agree with much of what you're saying. And I STILL say the war is a crock of sh*t.

Do you agree with any of the above bullet points?

To be continued... back in a few hours