New abuse photos found

[Gray Fox]

Incidently, I strongly support the soliders out there. As made clear many times before.

We've also said that we blame the government in general for the torture, through either lack of discipline, altering of law, or turning a blind eye.

If soliders come back with little support, you can blame the government for sending them on a war very few people agree with. I personally shall be sending money to whatever charity is set up for them.

(Incidently, I donated £50 this year to the poppy appeal. I'm a student and get £60 a week. So don't go saying I don't support our troops.)

Arghhhhh !!! I was just gonna quote this

how do you know someone higher up was not telling them to torture these people...you dont know that.

And give him about the same anwser.

(BTW I don't know about you but this is really starting to freak me out) :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

 

[clarky003]

We went in:
* Just after it seemed Osama was not going to be found, we needed something to show for our war on terror
* Just as our oil supply started drying up
* Just after the Afghan war, leaving the country without suitable military force to hold peace, and therefore causing it to crumble, and allowing Al-Qaeuda to regroup and reform
* Under false information, that wouldn't hold in a court of law. If you suspect someone MIGHT have killed a man, you don't imprison him. You can't go to war, on a MIGHT. You need strong proof.
* Well aware that Saddam had no intention of attacking the US, or indeed any western country.
* Under equipped, compromising the safety of our brave soliders
* Being told Saddam was helping terrorists, he wasn't
* At an unstable time, increasing hatred for the west
* At a time when we could barely handle the active terrorists from Afghan and other places. War with Iraq stirred up a hornets nest.
* Under a blaket of misinformation, lies and half truths, but came out the other side saying we'd freed the country. However now we're about to put another idiot in power, and watch the whole place just go back down the drain.
* Soon after 9/11, making it seem more like, "You attack our country, we'll annihiate any country we suspect of being involved tenfold." rather than "making the world safer"

quoted for emphasis, *needs more emphasis*

definately boils down to this though....

* To make the moves, to get the resources, to make the money the bankers and corporations need, to maintain this sick facadial joke of a democracey, set up according to the world elite's little plan for 'sustainment' IMO people on a global scale wont take this BS crap for much longer, this is no where near democracey, its a dictatorship buttered up as a democracey...

"I can see through the lies, like spam in a ziplock bag"
Leslie Neilsen,

 

[CptStern]

btw no one seems to mind that US has a history of "helping" terrorists ..like Iyad Allawi and Orlando Bosch

 

[Spartan]

WOW...you guys are really young arent you..lemme ask you this...of all the people here saying these soldiers are jackass's....please make a post saying you are currently in the military...

Let's assume that a group of soldiers commited rape and murder on a mass scale, and I told everyone that I consider it to be extremely disgusting, and conduct unfit for a soldier, or any human being. Let's also assume that I have no military experience. Would that make my opinion invalid?

Answer: no. kthnx bye.

because i dont think you guys realize what war is about..its not about a bunch of tree huggers giving sympothy to the opponent....

It's also not about torture, rape, murder, pillaging or anything else that goes on in battlefields all the time. If you disagree, you are ****ed in the head. It really is as simple as that.

I sure hope a draft doesnt come because I would hate to see little girls like you go to war...

Hum... so being againts torture (real or imagined) now makes me a "little girl." Yeah, I think it's safe to say that you are indeed ****ed in the head.

trust me..that place is somewhere you sissies cant handle in the state of mind you are in right now...

Is there any logic to all this? And what the **** does military training even matter? Almost every male in Finland has military training, anything from basic soldiering to engineering to special forces training. So what? To me, you sound like a 10-year old who has been playing Counter-Strike for too long.

as long as there is war..there will be civilians killed, prisoners tortured, people mutilated..its all part of it...

And how, pray tell, does that make it acceptable?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

btw no one seems to mind that US has a history of "helping" terrorists ..like Iyad Allawi and Orlando Bosch

So, we should just stop talking to the world I guess?

Yep. Should be our new foreign policy.

 

[Bait]

So, we should just stop talking to the world I guess?

Yep. Should be our new foreign policy.

If there was more talking involved this war may have been dodged. The whole problem was there wasn't enough talking or the talking that was being made wasn't listened to.

By the way, I have no idea how the hell your post related to CptStern's.

 

[Brassm0nkey]

What bothers me most is when the powers that be put them in situations where it is easy for them to torture, by removing their commanders from prisons, and now it seems making some methods of torture LEGAL! Torture, legal. No one else find that sick?

Well, the powers that be are put there to make those kinds of decisions. Sometimes their decisions are ugly and vile on the surface, but they are not made on a whim. I assure you they are not removing commanders simply because they enjoy looking at the images of torture that might follow. They do so because it is necessary. When certain resources are spread thin, you must make due and use them to the best of your ability, and that sometimes means cutting resources where they are needed to put them where they are needed even more.

What methods of torture exactly were made leagal?

If we had gone to Iraq to overthrow Saddam, I would agree with your statement about 'good cause'.

We didn't.
We went in:
* Just after it seemed Osama was not going to be found, we needed something to show for our war on terror
* Just as our oil supply started drying up
* Just after the Afghan war, leaving the country without suitable military force to hold peace, and therefore causing it to crumble, and allowing Al-Qaeuda to regroup and reform
* Under false information, that wouldn't hold in a court of law. If you suspect someone MIGHT have killed a man, you don't imprison him. You can't go to war, on a MIGHT. You need strong proof.
* Well aware that Saddam had no intention of attacking the US, or indeed any western country.
* Under equipped, compromising the safety of our brave soliders
* Being told Saddam was helping terrorists, he wasn't
* At an unstable time, increasing hatred for the west
* At a time when we could barely handle the active terrorists from Afghan and other places. War with Iraq stirred up a hornets nest.
* Under a blaket of misinformation, lies and half truths, but came out the other side saying we'd freed the country. However now we're about to put another idiot in power, and watch the whole place just go back down the drain.
* Soon after 9/11, making it seem more like, "You attack our country, we'll annihiate any country we suspect of being involved tenfold." rather than "making the world safer"

I will be the first to admit that we were not entirely honest with ourselves or the rest of the world about all of our motivations going into the war. I am not pro-war because I believed in all of the flimsy pretenses put forth by our people in power, I am pro-war simply because I can see that in the end the war will creat more positive change than negative. Politics is a dirty game of wheeling and dealing, but usually our officials, in all their deciet and plotting, are ultimately moving toward a better future. Not always, but usually.

 

[seinfeldrules]

I will be the first to admit that we were not entirely honest with ourselves or the rest of the world about all of our motivations going into the war. I am not pro-war because I believed in all of the flimsy pretenses put forth by our people in power, I am pro-war simply because I can see that in the end the war will creat more positive change than negative. Politics is a dirty game of wheeling and dealing, but usually our officials, in all their deciet and plotting, are ultimately moving toward a better future. Not always, but usually.

Quoted for emphasis.

 

[Hapless]

Let's assume that a group of soldiers commited rape and murder on a mass scale, and I told everyone that I consider it to be extremely disgusting, and conduct unfit for a soldier, or any human being. Let's also assume that I have no military experience. Would that make my opinion invalid?

Answer: no. kthnx bye.

I dunno, according to you, the fact that I served in the US Army in Desert Shield/Desert Storm gives me no credibility when speaking of things military. According to you, my opinion is invalid. Trying to have our cake and eat it too, are we?

 

[CptStern]

I dunno, according to you, the fact that I served in the US Army in Desert Shield/Desert Storm gives me no credibility when speaking of things military. According to you, my opinion is invalid. Trying to have our cake and eat it too, are we?

maybe not invalid but definately biased

 

[Bait]

I will be the first to admit that we were not entirely honest with ourselves or the rest of the world about all of our motivations going into the war. I am not pro-war because I believed in all of the flimsy pretenses put forth by our people in power, I am pro-war simply because I can see that in the end the war will creat more positive change than negative. Politics is a dirty game of wheeling and dealing, but usually our officials, in all their deciet and plotting, are ultimately moving toward a better future. Not always, but usually.

No one can tell the future, but I honestly think problems in Iraq will escalate over a long period of time. I also have a feeling that the US will pack up shop, say that Iraq is a unified and democratic nation, and leave it high and dry worse off than it originally was. Whether people share my views or not, no one will know until the time comes. Eventually, we will see who was really right and who was wrong. Truth be told, I hope I'm wrong, but I greatly doubt it.

 

[Hapless]

maybe not invalid but definately biased

And the fact that you've protested every war since Christ was a Corporal doesn't make you biased? :E

 

[CptStern]

christ wasnt a corporal!!! He was head guy at the table but not a corporal

anyways, no I havent protested every war under the sun, only the ones that are without justification and are detrimental to the civilian population. I've also protested WTO, IMF, Globalization etc.

 

[Hapless]

christ wasnt a corporal!!! He was head guy at the table but not a corporal

anyways, no I havent protested every war under the sun, only the ones that are without justification and are detrimental to the civilian population. I've also protested WTO, IMF, Globalization etc.

Soooooooooo....which wars haven't you protested then? No fair listing one's occurring prior to your birth

 

[gh0st]

Soooooooooo....which wars haven't you protested then? No fair listing one's occurring prior to your birth

stern is a 45 year old born again hippy. of course he's going to protest every war.

 

[Hapless]

Christ, I thought I was old at 32.

 

[clarky003]

wars like this one are a needless waste of resource and show up almost complete contempt for human life, on both sides, plus oil wars are sooo... cliche, no matter what you think your fighting for.

 

[Hapless]

wars like this one are a needless waste of resource and show up almost complete contempt for human life, on both sides, plus oil wars are sooo... cliche.

Just like this post?

 

[clarky003]

oh thats clever stuff, go preach to Bush... if you really can justify it .. somehow...

he'll be on the golf course somewhere.

 

[Hapless]

oh thats clever stuff, go preach to Bush... if you really can justify it .. somehow...

he'll be on the golf course somewhere.

That's two cliche's.........

 

[CptStern]

speaking of cliches

stern is a 45 year old born again hippy. of course he's going to protest every war.

I'm hardly 45, you prepubescent uber-conservative wannabe :E

anyways, enough with the mudslinging ..why is what I do all that important? is it because you'd rather shoot the messenger than deal with facts?

 

[gh0st]

I'm hardly 45, you prepubescent uber-conservative wannabe :E

uber?

A NAZI GET HIM!
btw im not prepubescent, ive got the pictures to prove it.

you never deal with facts youre presented. the only way you escape through these arguments is 1) abu ghraib 2) that albright quote 3) bringing some other US injustice up. its the same formula for all of your arguments, its hilarious.

 

[CptStern]

uber?

A NAZI GET HIM!
btw im not prepubescent, ive got the pictures to prove it.

your attitude betrays you

you never deal with facts youre presented.

pardonne moi?

gh0st: oh look he's a frenchie lets lynch him :upstare:

the only way you escape through these arguments is 1) abu ghraib 2) that albright quote 3) bringing some other US injustice up. its the same formula for all of your arguments, its hilarious.

1) for the last time I was trying to prove that the abuse is widespread and not just a few "bad apples".

2) that albright quote clearly illustrates the US' attitude towards iraqis: expendable

3) we're talking about occupied iraq of course the US is going to come up.

 

[gh0st]

your attitude betrays you

cant deal with sarcasm stern? incredible, since you dish out a fair portion of it every day. a laughing face typically means a joke, dumbass.

pardonne moi?

gh0st: oh look he's a frenchie lets lynch him :upstare:

see above and/or head on back to grade school.

1) for the last time I was trying to prove that the abuse is widespread and not just a few "bad apples".

2) that albright quote clearly illustrates the US' attitude towards iraqis: expendable

3) we're talking about occupied iraq of course the US is going to come up.

i wasent talking about just 1 post. these are the only 3 arguments you have in general. for example with the whole rwanda, i recall you bringing up that albright quote with no bearing to the conversation. :rolling:

 

[CptStern]

cant deal with sarcasm stern? incredible, since you dish out a fair portion of it every day. a laughing face typically means a joke, dumbass.

you didnt understand that did you?

see above and/or head on back to grade school.

I dont remember grade school

i wasent talking about just 1 post.

I wasnt either

these are the only 3 arguments you have in general. for example with the whole rwanda, i recall you bringing up that albright quote with no bearing to the conversation. :rolling:

linky

 

[gh0st]

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1020861&postcount=9

no bearing to the conversation and totally irrelevant. and my appologies for mixing up rwanda and ivory coast, im sure that you said it in that rwanda threat though too.

heres another where you use the same, canned response

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1062387&postcount=53

same thread

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1063857&postcount=72

here it is again

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1047314&postcount=107

and again

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=729909&postcount=78

same thread

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=731193&postcount=154

search brings up another 2 threads, so ill just assume it was you. how many times youve used that quote? 9 at least.

 

[CptStern]

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1020861&postcount=9

no bearing to the conversation and totally irrelevant. and my appologies for mixing up rwanda and ivory coast, im sure that you said it in that rwanda threat though too.

yes it did have relevance ..I replied to shadowhawks post

 

[gh0st]

yes it did have relevance ..I replied to shadowhawks post

sorry, i had to edit.

 

[burner69]

So, we should just stop talking to the world I guess?

Yep. Should be our new foreign policy.

No, try talking to the people who don't just necessarily expand your wallets.
So what is your response to America allying with known terrorists? Rather than just hilarious one-liners.

What methods of torture exactly were made leagal?

I will be the first to admit that we were not entirely honest with ourselves or the rest of the world about all of our motivations going into the war. I am not pro-war because I believed in all of the flimsy pretenses put forth by our people in power, I am pro-war simply because I can see that in the end the war will creat more positive change than negative. Politics is a dirty game of wheeling and dealing, but usually our officials, in all their deciet and plotting, are ultimately moving toward a better future. Not always, but usually.

CptStern has told you many times, yet is being hammered for repeating his posts. Wonder why he does that?

Please, if you believe America goes to war with a country to better it look at Afghan, and Iraq after the first Gulf. I'm just glad in five years I can come on the HL3 forums and say: "I told you so." Then "Dam, release date changed"

I dunno, according to you, the fact that I served in the US Army in Desert Shield/Desert Storm gives me no credibility when speaking of things military. According to you, my opinion is invalid. Trying to have our cake and eat it too, are we?

You said; if you aren't a military type, your points aren't valid. We said; no. When did we say your opinion didn't matter?

And the fact that you've protested every war since Christ was a Corporal doesn't make you biased? :E

What a c*nt aye. Protesting war. I dunno, whatever next, protesting murder? Rape?

stern is a 45 year old born again hippy. of course he's going to protest every war.

You bring debates into a personal level because you have no idea what you're talking about. of course you're an idiot.

aldjfaslkfjsadlfjsladfkjsaldfkj.....<----this is just another way of saying.......aldfjals;dfkjas;dlfkjasdflkj

Nice debating with you. Bye.

heres another where you use the s...ake it in... Like the legal torture? Hmmm

 

[gh0st]

You bring debates into a personal level because you have no idea what you're talking about.

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you're an idiot.

oh. ohhhh the irony. thats almost john kerry-esque, congratulations.

 

[burner69]

Well done, you pointed out my joke. Now care to debate any of the more serious issues raised?

 

[gh0st]

Well done, you pointed out my joke. Now care to debate any of the more serious issues raised?

no actually i think everyones gotten their opinion (no matter how ignorant and wrong it is) out there.

 

[Brassm0nkey]

CptStern has told you many times, yet is being hammered for repeating his posts. Wonder why he does that?

CptStern has told me nothing, unless I have missed something. And I am not hammering him, nor have I even directed a sinlge post at him. I believe you mistook me for someone else. I asked the question because I honestly don't know. If torture has been legalized as you claim I simply want to know what actions exactly have been legalized. It is clear in this whole debate that in the heat of growing resentment for America the definition of "torture" has been wildly broadened. I just asked you to provide something more specific.

 

[burner69]

CptStern has told me nothing, unless I have missed something. And I am not hammering him, nor have I even directed a sinlge post at him. I believe you mistook me for someone else. I asked the question because I honestly don't know. If torture has been legalized as you claim I simply wan't to know what actions exactly have been legalized. It is clear in this whole debate that in the heat of growing resentment for America the definition of "torture" has been wildly broadened. I just asked you to provide something more specific.

It seems that

 

[burner69]

Sorry, mis posted.

My apologies if I was digging at you unnessesarily. Really.

The torture cptStern refers to again and again is water boarding, just search, it's been posted a ga-zillion times (not digging at you, just indicating.. very accuratly of course... how many times this point is raised, which prob explains why I had a rant at u. Sorry :cheers:

It is torture under any definition. Soon to be legal.

As for the definition of 'torture' being broadened, yes it is. Iraqis being forced to strip and exchange blows is being called torture, though of course it isn't. This is just giggles for the family album.

 

[gh0st]

haha. :monkee:

 

[clarky003]

The only thing thats ignorant round here is redneck patriotic conformatisim with quite possibly one of the most outwardly corrupt 'Irony' >.. and 'ignorant' governments on the planet.

Im not slating you Ghost or any other US born citizen, but the government is playing your base instinct's like a guitar, using age old manipulation and propaganda techniques in a supposed 'developed, free and civilised world, In a free world no one deserves to be manipulated so bad, Free decision has never been so imposed upon, and the truth has never been squandered so much.

in 2 years time when the US is strangeled by harsher policing driven through blind fear ,... well hell you might aswell slap a combine mask on every Government official, give them a fat wad of cash in tax, and suggest that they build a 50 trillion dollar citadel in washington, called the USA Overwatch Hub AKA... World Overwatch Hub

If no one else has noticed... our society is deteriorating in its 'sustainability' factor and Freedom is in the trash compactor, a slow one.. and if you dont figure out how to climb up the side in time . your gonna get squished.

 

[gh0st]

you arent slating me? sure seemed that way.

but regardless... its so easy to say im being brainwashed. you dont suppose news companies like al jazeera are manipulative? that they dont use propaganda 'techniques'? thats simply bull. i could just as easily call any anti us argument a hatefilled conspiracy theory, but i dont. at least have the respect to see others points of view without calling them a brainwashed government zombie.

i dont know what free decision you speak of. my free decisions, and my free speech havent been impeded and i have been published several times in local seattle papers and newsletters. i doubt you have any idea whats happening in america right now (but ill give you the benefit of the doubt)

my only suggestion is that you dont label anybody with "redneck patriotic conformatism" as a manipulated fear monger. its simply not true.

 

[burner69]

OMG ROFLCOPTER>>..ahahadhfaslkfjasdljk

omg LOOOLLLERSkatez.....rofl

........WTF mate

....seriously....1980 just called..he wants his money back

Are you here to debate or just show the world you're a prick? Seriously?...ooo... wait...

OMG ROFLCOPTER>>..ahahadhfaslkfjasdljk

I'm a prick

........WTF mate, I really am

....seriously....I am

 

[burner69]

Let's debate, not act like kids. Please.

*Moves on*