Nice example of normal maps for those who don't know what they actually are

[The Dark Elf]

Found this, it was done by a Lightwave user called Mike who frequents the Lightwave forums at Newtek.com. Thought it might be interesting for those on the forum who don't really know what normal maps actually do or what the benefits of them are

http://www.3dluvr.com/blackbourn/web/GollumNormalMap_DIVX.avi

It just shows the difference between a none smoothed low poly model, a smoothed one and a smooth one with a normal map applied that was generated from a highpoly version of the same object

this example was done by a guy called Martin and shows the difference again but in a full character and the various versions of it

You can read the original thread here
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4116

though its mostly about the freebie(I think) normal map plugin Mavin Landis made for Lightwave

 

[Murray_H]

Is this possible -

Take an almost perfect, extremely high poly sphere and make a normal map of it, and then apply that to a very low poly cube to make it into a sphere?

Or is that going against the laws of normal mapping?

 

[The Dark Elf]

Originally posted by Murray_H
Is this possible -

Take an almost perfect, extremely high poly sphere and make a normal map of it, and then apply that to a very low poly cube to make it into a sphere?

Or is that going against the laws of normal mapping?

Depends.. if you mean trying to turn a cube into a sphere, then no, normal maps can't do that. But if you mean turning a low res sphere to appear higher detail, then it can partially do it, just wont help with the edges of the object where you'll still see that its low poly.


a handy tutorial, this time Cinema4D, I dunno how many out there use it. But the first page is useful to see the differences between bump and normal maps

http://members.shaw.ca/jimht03/normal.html

 

[Punisher454]

Does anybody know the normal mapping procedure for halflife2 yet? will orb created normal maps work?

 

[The Dark Elf]

Originally posted by Punisher454
Does anybody know the normal mapping procedure for halflife2 yet? will orb created normal maps work?

yup looks like they'll work fine, never used Orb though but it looks like its the proper results, so you shouldn't have any problems with it.

We wont know exactly how HL2 puts the various imagemaps together though until its out, I imagine some command line tool or maybe something in hammer that takes your images and compiles them or something.

What I'd suggest is create your maps at the highest res you can, and make sure each type of map per image is the same dimensions. Then I think you'll have very very few problems later, scale down image size to whatever it can handle comfortably and keep the high res masters for later down the line when PC's can handle even bigger textures in HL2

 

[Faravid]

Since I like texturing quite much, I'll surely have to try this out, BTW is it possible to make normal maps without 3D program... somehow?

 

[The Dark Elf]

Originally posted by Faravid
Since I like texturing quite much, I'll surely have to try this out, BTW is it possible to make normal maps without 3D program... somehow?

there's a plugin from nVidia's site for photoshop. which converts images into normal maps. It has a lot of options, but because an image doesn't have the proper amount of information in it like generating a normal map directly from a 3D program would. The results aren't too good.. I started a new thread a while back showing a few examples of the different methods and how they'd look. The photoshop method isn't too great, probably only any real good for very small details as it just wouldn't be able to get the real quality of a map generated in 3D space

I've not known anyone to create a normal map directly from scratch though, not like bump maps can be.. Not saying it wouldn't be possible though, if you did one color channel at a time you could probably do a manual one pretty well so long as you could visualise exactly what each color and shade will do otherwise it could get messed up.. Hard to do, but not impossible


ooh ok found the image from back then

 

[Faravid]

Ya doesn't look too good, though I don't even touch photoshop, I just hate that program.
I guess I'll have to learn 3D a little bit more than just making a ball. ;P

 

[Faravid]

Anyways doesn't really matter since bumb mapping is for flat textures on a wall for example and normal mapping more for 3D objects and for example some 3D looking thing on the wall (such as those seen in Quake 3) and the wall has a little bump which adds only little bit of polygons more to make it look more like 3D just adding details... doesn't matter on a flat surface since texture itself is rather detailed, but not designed for 3D use, would be fun to see a normal rock texture on a human with human's own textures just normal mapped on it.

 

[Faravid]

Also would be fun to see a drawing program where you draw directly on a 3D surface, with objects/layers used as well, and you could rotate the surface, you wouldn't have to bother about strecthing, placing etc to make it look right.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Originally posted by Faravid
Also would be fun to see a drawing program where you draw directly on a 3D surface, with objects/layers used as well, and you could rotate the surface, you wouldn't have to bother about strecthing, placing etc to make it look right.

Deep Paint 3D, BodyPaint. Maya's Artisan/paint effects. But its not for beginners as you need to know blindfolded what your doing with UV's to get the best quality

 

[Faravid]

Ah gotta try them out could get more to the skinning then.

BTW: This is really nice bumb mapping (Far Cry):
http://crytek.com/screenshots/index.php?sx=xisle&px=1240.jpg

 

[The Dark Elf]

Originally posted by Faravid
Anyways doesn't really matter since bumb mapping is for flat textures on a wall for example and normal mapping more for 3D objects and for example some 3D looking thing on the wall (such as those seen in Quake 3) and the wall has a little bump which adds only little bit of polygons more to make it look more like 3D just adding details... doesn't matter on a flat surface since texture itself is rather detailed, but not designed for 3D use, would be fun to see a normal rock texture on a human with human's own textures just normal mapped on it.

no. Bump mapping isn't great. The way bump mapping works is a height map. It's a grayscale image, so black is the lowest point, white is the highest point. There's no way to know which direction each point is facing, so it has to make a guess, which leads to slightly more blurry effects.. Bump mapping is fine for many things, and will continue to be for some time, but normal mapping is better as the system knows which direction something is supposed to be facing, so you get the lighting more accurately, highlights and shadows and so on.

 

[Faravid]

Ah yeah, of course.
Anyways you're true, Bump mapping is not totally useless either, until technology gets to the point where everything has to look 100% photo realistic.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Originally posted by Faravid
Ah gotta try them out could get more to the skinning then.

BTW: This is really nice bumb mapping (Far Cry):
http://crytek.com/screenshots/index.php?sx=xisle&px=1240.jpg

you'll need a wacom drawing tablet and a decent machine to make the most of them, as its better to paint directly onto the high poly version with thousands of polys. Complete that one, then bake the color, diffuse, spec, normal maps onto a low poly model. For the best effect.. Personally I suggest Microwave from Evasion3D.. I dunno if its available for other applications, I think some of their other plugins are so its probably only a matter of time. Anyway I take stuff I've done in XSI, Maya, Houdini and do the normal mapping and any surface baking in Lightwave with microwave. It's saved my life a couple of times and has tons of features in it
-
Yup heavy normal maps (though I think the Far Cry devs call it something else). I should imagine HL2 wont have problems doing those, unless its like a set depth to it, then the normals will be pretty limited to whats possible. If it hasn't a problem with heavy ones then it should be dead easy to do those kinds of rock effects.. I reckon it wont have a problem. Wont know until its tried for real though. and apart from the rock wall example in the vids I haven't seen anything in the HL2 E3 stuff that shows heavy normal mapping. They'll be a way around it though if it doesn't do it. It's pretty simple to do. I wont know until I get my hands on the game though *pouts*

 

[The Dark Elf]

Originally posted by Faravid
Ah yeah, of course.
Anyways you're true, Bump mapping is not totally useless either, until technology gets to the point where everything has to look 100% photo realistic.

heh yeah.. betcha I still use bump maps though for some things even then though . their err, their good for carpets hehehe. Many times normal mapping isn't required, dents and things, or grooves in objects, normal maps can do it obviously, but its just much easier to use a bump map. But say you do a small dado rail on a wall. Normal maps are good for that, as you can model the rail, and a section of wall. Texture everything, then bake out the color, normal and other maps. Place them on a flat poly and for the most part they'll look just the same, until you get too close then the illusion is screwed. But most of the time it'll look fine.

I did a chart actually. That shows what should and shouldn't be done with normal maps depending on how close you will get to it. The closer you can get, the smaller the effect the normal map should be used for. The further away you are the larger an effect you can pass off with normal maps. Up to a point. Also angle has a baring on what should and shouldn't be done with a normal map, many effects look perfect and real looking straight on at the map, but past that a certain angle (depending again on distance and what its supposed to be representing) the illusion breaks. I'll try dig the chart up and post it at some point, its pretty handy. Actually I might redo it for more games related stuff.

 

[Faravid]

Originally posted by Fenric1138
you'll need a wacom drawing tablet and a decent machine to make the most of them, as its better to paint directly onto the high poly version with thousands of polys. Complete that one, then bake the color, diffuse, spec, normal maps onto a low poly model. For the best effect.. Personally I suggest Microwave from Evasion3D.. I dunno if its available for other applications, I think some of their other plugins are so its probably only a matter of time. Anyway I take stuff I've done in XSI, Maya, Houdini and do the normal mapping and any surface baking in Lightwave with microwave. It's saved my life a couple of times and has tons of features in it
-
Yup heavy normal maps (though I think the Far Cry devs call it something else). I should imagine HL2 wont have problems doing those, unless its like a set depth to it, then the normals will be pretty limited to whats possible. If it hasn't a problem with heavy ones then it should be dead easy to do those kinds of rock effects.. I reckon it wont have a problem. Wont know until its tried for real though. and apart from the rock wall example in the vids I haven't seen anything in the HL2 E3 stuff that shows heavy normal mapping. They'll be a way around it though if it doesn't do it. It's pretty simple to do. I wont know until I get my hands on the game though *pouts*

A big bunch of expensive programs, would be easier just to stay common bumb maps (and less expensive, since I could never pay for those programs), except for testing out with *couch* less expensive ways of getting those programs, or manually trying to make the normal maps.

I do have a tablet, but no wacom and only a small one and I do have a decent machine... to some point.

 

[Faravid]

I did a chart actually. That shows what should and shouldn't be done with normal maps depending on how close you will get to it. The closer you can get, the smaller the effect the normal map should be used for. The further away you are the larger an effect you can pass off with normal maps. Up to a point. Also angle has a baring on what should and shouldn't be done with a normal map, many effects look perfect and real looking straight on at the map, but past that a certain angle (depending again on distance and what its supposed to be representing) the illusion breaks. I'll try dig the chart up and post it at some point, its pretty handy. Actually I might redo it for more games related stuff.

Sounds good

 

[killarman]

haha the face pisture look like Mike Tyson

 

[The Dark Elf]

Originally posted by killarman
haha the face pisture look like Mike Tyson

lol damn i didn't notice that before, it does too haha

 

[Incitatus]

Originally posted by Faravid
Ah gotta try them out could get more to the skinning then.

BTW: This is really nice bumb mapping (Far Cry):
http://crytek.com/screenshots/index.php?sx=xisle&px=1240.jpg

bleh overused bump mapping is ugly.

As soon as there'a even a little distance between the camera and the object, bump mapping just as good as more advanced methods like displacement mapping. btw as soon as renderers are able to render bump shadows (like final render stage 1 can) there'll hardly be any reason to forget about bump mapping, it's a simple and cpu/gpu effective method.

Normal mapping and bump mapping are not interchangeble they have very different roles.

*Join the campaign for in-game SSS :cheers: *

:afro:

 

[Maxi]

Bleeh that pic looks like one ive seen of EQII, thats in a dungeon where the entire wall is bump mapped, looks ugly. Doesn't resemble a dungeon at all.

 

[vann7]

Found this, it was done by a Lightwave user called Mike who frequents the Lightwave forums at Newtek.com. Thought it might be interesting for those on the forum who don't really know what normal maps actually do or what the benefits of them are

http://www.3dluvr.com/blackbourn/web/GollumNormalMap_DIVX.avi

It just shows the difference between a none smoothed low poly model, a smoothed one and a smooth one with a normal map applied that was generated from a highpoly version of the same object

this example was done by a guy called Martin and shows the difference again but in a full character and the various versions of it

You can read the original thread here
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4116

though its mostly about the freebie(I think) normal map plugin Mavin Landis made for Lightwave

wow! very cool..
that is pretty much Doom3 technology.. use of normal maps for their characters models..
Doom3 original models are 500k up to 1miilion.. and reduced to 3k-6k thanks to the agressive normal mapping

Fenric: Yup heavy normal maps (though I think the Far Cry devs call it something else). I should imagine HL2 wont have problems doing those, unless its like a set depth to it, then the normals will be pretty limited to whats possible. If it hasn't a problem with heavy ones then it should be dead easy to do those kinds of rock effects.. I reckon it wont have a problem. Wont know until its tried for real though. and apart from the rock wall example in the vids I haven't seen anything in the HL2 E3 stuff that shows heavy normal mapping. They'll be a way around it though if it doesn't do it. It's pretty simple to do. I wont know until I get my hands on the game though

I think is the other way. It will not be easy for Hl2 mooders or level editors to use heavy Normal mapping ,neither real normal mapping . Since you have experience with 3dapplications like XSi/MAya..etc.. i have a question for you.. can you do normal maps wihout lights? how about Speculars?


i ask those questions because thats the main dificulty of Hl2. a game that is done mostly with pre-computed "something" for performance reasons .because "lights" are mostly baked.. previously recorded for static Objects (walls,floor or any static surface) and Dynamic Objects which is ->the characters are "Illuminated" in artificial ways. in professional 3d graphics whenever there is a normal or a bumpmaps ,there is also a specular poiting to another direction. so its very unlikely that you will be able to do in Hl2 the character normal mapping techniques you posted above to make characters look (HIgh poly) if you want High detailed characters in Hl2 ,it will need to be done by Brute force (more polys) . because Normal mapping needs and accurate lighting system ,something like per-pixelighting or the like. Thats why you have seen very few examples of normal mapping in Hl2. i think Valve added them later ,to please the gamers , and as an answer to Doom3 Videos ,where -everything- is Bumpapped/normallmaped and specularmapped

Hl2 "support" Normal maps ,bumpmaps in the sense that they use real Normals textures and you see something of the effect . which really increase the graphics details ,as everyone has seen in the CAvewall video and others... but they are not used at its fullest potential ,because they are limited to static baked lights..
means that if you are a Modder or level editor ,you will need to carefully select the places where to use (*where to hide*) the Normals and bumpmaps and where not. because if you place them in the wrong area ,people will notice the fake.

So thats why Valve choose dark places ,mostly to use Normal and Bumpmaps ,because there is less easier to notice the fake. if you look at the CAvewall XSI video.. there is a very nice demo at the beguining of normals maps in Softimage XSI (aprofessional 3dsorfware). as expected Normals are dynamic. when Valve start the game ,in the cave. and turn on the flashlight ,you will notice that the Normals are static. the opposite of what Normals really are.the shadows of the "irregular" rocks are always DArk and in the same place. even if a flashlight illuminate that areas. it may not look like a big deal ,its a game after all not a Scientific Light simulator. but its clear to me ,that while Normals and Bumpmaps looks very good in the game it will be limited in Hl2 to Dark places or very High places (like the cavewall video). where its more dificult to see the fake. other techniques that can be done to make looks that the normals are "dynamic" (the way REal Normals are) , ...is to Atach 2 or more shadow textures to surfaces ,and to change the texture on the fly. however still will be innacurate because the normals are not interacting with the lights (Afaik .. almost nothing in Hl2 is ) means that in a general sense, surfaces in Hl2 dont intereact with lights at all -since lights are indepents of the shadows of a scene and viceversa ..ex.. lights in a scene that dont really cast shadows and shadows that are not made by any light in the map) with the workaround above you will be able to see the swapping of the textures and it looks weird or like some kind of texture clipping.. in the Hl2 videos the water-cave techdemo is more obvious this.

and yes.. normals are more advanced that Bumps.. but bummaps are very easy to create and very usefull ,for tiny details , in characters faces and weapons ,and also for surfaces. i use them 100% of the time in my 3dart.

 

[vann7]

i couldnt update my last post :hmph:

Pictures speak better than words , just in case people have not see the video ,here are some screenshots . an example why Normals the static ones that Hl2 support will need to be used very carefully in the game. because as you will see in the screenshots ,the "shadows" eats the dynamic lights of the flashlight . thats the reason you dont see that feature used everywhere in the game. and thats why Hl2 characters will not be able to do the "Hipoly" Character techniques using normalsmapping in the game. since characters are dynamic ,and Normals in Hl2 are -static.-

its a good technique for games ,increase greatly the quality as you can see in the video ,even if it is static.no doubt about this , but still is not used in all its glory . like the begining of the video in the 3dProfessional package or like other games .

 

[The Dark Elf]

Don't drag up old threads, and this one is really old :|

 

[The Dark Elf]

Oh and yeah, normals aren't dynamic.. we use them all the time in pre-rendered work in the movie industry and don't need lights moving about to show them off.. They are used to give the impression of more detail, you don't need realtime lights to do that when the compiling of the light in a map will take them into account (as shown by your wall example)

I'll open this for a laugh

 

[The Dark Elf]

Who do you work for, Fenric? And what do you do?

I work for myself. I own a number of FX studios but prefer to work freelance and let others run the day to day operation of those, cause its more fun working with different people every week and I get to work for much bigger companies like ILM, CORE Digital etc. Also do commissions, paintings and such. Started in video games then moved to film then slowly going back to games again, basically following the money

I do 3D modeling, animation, artwork, concept work, designing. Consulting, teaching (sometimes, but not so much now cause I haven't the patience ) Can't program to save my life. Dabble with music and audio stuff as a hobby.

And we use normal maps almost all the time now. Faster output. And you don't need a dynamic light just to see normal maps. Vann misses out the part that even in daylight, a scene is never 100% bright. That would be unrealistic. Even the smallest detail will have lighter and darker area's. Let the normal maps worry about the direction of the light and dark area's isntead of drawing it into the texture and you get better results aswell as being able to put that object elsewhere without the lighting of it being out of synch with the rest of the scene.

 

[vann7]

And you don't need a dynamic light just to see normal maps. Vann misses out the part that even in daylight, a scene is never 100% bright. .

never have said the opposite.. Static normals can look accurate but only with static lights, what i have said is that static normals are limited to special situations .because they are guess what? ->static. for others that doesnt know what this means ,is simply that dont react accordingly with the dynamic Lights. the last place Modders will ever want to see something like FIre effects is in a place where Static normals exist. (unless you dont care that people notice the fake. which looks that it will be the case ) other examples can be (flashlights,explotions,fire..weapons fire..etc. that happens at 100% of the time in games. day or night). just imagine the same technique in the face or the body of an always dynamic character .a face that is always dark at one side and always bright at the other.? as you already know whenever you are limited to work with static "something" normals/bumps/speculars you will not be able to use those features at its fullest potential.

 

[FictiousWill]

Please don't quote entire posts and say 'cool'. Quoting is for portions of posts. I'd go into how unnecessary and stupid it is, but that would be unnecessary and well, stupid.

Bump maps are height maps. Normal maps show the direction of each pixel. There is no such thing as a 'bumb' map.

I don't know what the hell Van7 is going on about with his 'static normals' and dark places. I'd tear apart his post, but I can't be assed to do so.

 

[MadMechwarrior]

Let me do it for you:

Vann, clearly you dont understand what a normal is. A normal is a vector used by the rendering engine (it is usualy perpendicular to the polygon, except in normal maps it varies because of the map) so it knows which way this polygon is facing and how much light it should recieve. Normals are NOT light values, they arent computed dynamicly every frame. What you are talking about are light maps, and i've never seen a light map baked onto a character.

Normal maps work just as good with any type of light because they create the illusion of shadows and highlights where there really are none, it makes the light engine think there are extra polies. So there is no such thing as static and dynamic normals, they will all work great and it has nothing to do with the type of light source used.

Case closed

 

[vann7]

Let me do it for you:

So there is no such thing as static and dynamic normals, they will all work great and it has nothing to do with the type of light source used.

Case closed

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Hoaxer: What kind of shadows are used in Source engine - are they fully dynamic, or are they partially static lightmaps - do you use a combination of lightmaps and dynamic shadows?


Gabe Newell: We use a combination of dynamic and static lighting. Objects that move cast dynamic shadows whereas static objects cast, well, static shadows that are cheaper. On DX9 you get soft dynamic shadows as well. We also have a full radiosity solution for static bumped lighting (bump maps work with static lights).IF you were to put a static light next to a bump-mapped object, the light direction would be correct (traditionally light maps and bump maps have been mutually exclusive)


----------------------------------------------------------------


now if you were to put a dynamic light ,(fire effects/explotions/weaponsfire/flashlights..other light effects) the light-shadow direction -will NOT- be correct as the cavewall video. because the "Lighting" that "interact" with the normals, is already baked ,Stored ,mapped,pre-computed,not done -in the time- it happens .something of the past . so it cant be updated ,and normals will remain static. so it will look incorrect. like the screenshots i posted (which were the best case scenario). where the normals-shadows are not affected by the dynamic light. just the way it happened correctly in the demo in the Professional 3dsoftware.( in CG graphics many times the word "BUmpmaps" is used for NOrmals and vice ),just like Normal maps needs to be updated wheneve lights are in diferent angle ,at any change in the light. otherwise it will not look correct. so you will need to be carefull where to use them and where not. NOrmals mapping techniques like the monsters ones posted in this thread at the begining (is the worse case),to increase characters Polys ,-will not be possible- in Hl2 ,because Hl2 characters doesnt do selfshadowing ,and because Normals mapping in dynamic objects here REALLY! needs to be updated ,otherwise it will look Incorrect and here it will be very Obvious the fake . so in Hl2 for everything i have seen .. and have read* its clear to me that Normals/Bumps and also speculars (at least in the game ->Hl2)will be limited to special situations because are not used at its fullest capability ,not done or updated in realtime. thats why i call them static. not because they are really dynamic or static by itself (technically speaking),they are neither ,but just a texture ,but if the light that interact with them is pre-recorded (static lightmaps) then you have something that can be called -Static NOrmals or static bumps.

about all the wonders that the Source engine can do/cant do or will do in the close or long future i dont know ,im really sure they will stay with that engine for a long time,and that will be updated and patched like if there is no tomorrow in the following months and years. i only focus only in the side of the game.

is a waste of time ,tryng to explain something when people really doesnt want to see ,even when you already show the evidence. just enjoy the game ,and ignore any technical information that says that Hl2 cant do final fantasy graphics in realtime. i will buy the game too ,really waiting for those great mods that will be there. it just that i need to stop tryng to inform people ,about the tradeoff that are used in games to enhance the graphics without too much drop in performance .

 

[FictiousWill]

AARG! The normals show the direction of the pixels, so the renderer can shade them in real-time! How the renderer shades them is dynamic and based upon the position of the light source, but the damn normal map remains the same.

 

[The Dark Elf]

AARG! The normals show the direction of the pixels, so the renderer can shade them in real-time! How the renderer shades them is dynamic and based upon the position of the light source, but the damn normal map remains the same.

Fustrating explaining it to him isn't it? .. Like talking to a normal mapped wall

 

[vann7]

AARG! The normals show the direction of the pixels, so the renderer can shade them in real-time! How the renderer shades them is dynamic and based upon the position of the light source, but the damn normal map remains the same.

REnderers can shade them in real time or in non realtime just like ->Hl2. did you only disagree with my definition of normals?
or do you still believe that Normals/Bumps in Hl2 are accurate?
because i have more screenshots to backup my words .just in case you need them.just ignore the semantics . the normals map [texture] are always the same. all the map textures (Bumps/normals/speculars/reflection/color/difuse/GLossy.......) are the same they dont change. its just a texture -you missed that part when i told that Normals are ->just a texture that they are not dynamic or static at all. they are they way you use them..but they cannot work well without the appropiate shading+lighting. when i say normal maps need to be updated ,i mean the complete process ,the normalmaps+lighting+shade needs to be updated in a dynamic illuminated enviroments. which is the case of most modern computer games.

for still shots any lighting works,heck.. even without lighting at all. you can also fake them with paint . but something that is dynamic..->games its diferent story. Hl2 have the same tradeoff that made Carmack to not jump on a Lightmapped engine. so thats why Hl2 Bumpmaps/Normals are limited.(same with speculars maps) not because the texture are incorrect,but because of the way lighting/shade interact with them ,so the full process of NOrmals mapping /bumpmapping is limited when you rely on prerecorded Static Lighmaps.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Normal maps work on static objects cause they don't move, if the light casting onto them moves or is setup in an array of lights to give the impression of a moving static light then the effect is updated and continues to work

normal maps on dynamic objects continue to work because they take their lighting information from points where the static lights exist, so continue to work correctly

Do you know what a polygon normal is? It's the direction of the face of a polygon. A polygon has one face. A normal map is nothing more than special colored lights placed around a model and their color on each point recorded onto a texture map. Each polygon faces a different direction, each direction is a different shade of Red Green or Blue. Unlike traditional bump maps where the map is grayscale, black (low) white (high) and has no directional information, just height (one axis) a normal map uses the full RGB range and thus can provide X Y Z information.

Honestly, everything your saying is proven as false by the same images you quoted in full in your first reply

specular and reflection maps work differently, they may like the others be nothing more than an image mapped onto an object, but depending on the POV of the camera they give different effects.. its simple logic. Diffuse maps are nothing but grayscale maps that effect the brightness of the pixels beneath them, lighter or darker. Gloss maps effect the scale of the specular effect, large for duller objects, small and sharp for very shiny objects

Basically what your saying is normal maps don't work.. Well, I happen to know a number of very large studios who will disagree with you strongly there. If normal maps didn't work how they should, then to start with, why would Far Cry, HL2, DoomIII, QuakeIV, Stalker and many others be using them. Why would ILM, EdenFX, CORE Digital, Digital Domain etc. be using them. Why would I and hundreds of other CG artists be using them

argh shudder lol

 

[neozero]

Is there a way for mod developers to use them? So we can all see for ourselves.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Is there a way for mod developers to use them? So we can all see for ourselves.

Sure, you can use them in Max with 'Orb' I think its called, a small plugin that helps you generate them, XSI can do them, Lightwave can do them, Cinema4D can do them.. Maya, Houdini, Truespace probably. Any decent package should be able to. If it doesn't have a special plugin for it, there's usually ways to fake the effect too. So long as the software your using allows you to bake the effect to a UV map your sorted. The easiest way is to build a high poly version, and a low poly version, then bake the normals and textures and everything else from the high poly version, onto your low poly UV maps. So for example you could use unlimited number of decals, maps, procedurals, other effects. All on your high poly model, then bake all that date to single UV maps for specularity, diffuse, normals, and so on that fit your low poly models perfectly. No quesswork while painting the textures as its all handled automatically for you, so you can make them the easy way on a high detailed model. And spit out whatever image res you want. So do say, 512x512 maps now, then in a few years 1024x1024 maps when the hardware can handle them nicely. Without any extra work from yourselves, just hit a button and jobs done. So long as you have the high quality version safely stored away

Course you'll need to wait till the game is out to see them in action, but there's nothing atall stopping mod teams from modeling high poly versions to create the normal map detail to map onto the low poly in game models. Then you can see yourself how cool they look. Those images I linked to above ages back show the difference when using them.. They wont cure the low poly edges of a model, but details and the impression of thousands more polygons they can do. Ignore what Vann tells you. They DO work and they look GOOD

Just imagine if someone like Ankalar used them on his models, he's already knocking out amazing work if his recent gun is anything to go by, imagine how realistic they'd look with proper normal maps on them too

 

[OCybrManO]

If he had seen anyone use the flashlight on a normal mapped wall in the "alpha" (there's a video somewhere) he would know that the direction of the shadows actually changes. That's dynamic enough for me.

 

[Brian Damage]

These descriptions are making me drool...

 

[The Dark Elf]

Yeah, gonna be quite something.. If you remember that scan that was posted a while back from a magazine cover with a character from Stalker.. with normal maps you'd be looking at that sort of thing, with high enough image maps you'd even get the texture right down to the fabric. Throw in specular maps and so on. Your well on your way to getting very realistic surfaces and models. And all running in realtime, which is the really cool bit

some more examples of normal maps to make you drool

These were done using the incredibly cool microwave for Lightwave, I swear by this app for creating my normal maps and other baking work.

http://www.evasion3d.com/mw_intro.html

can't wait to see HL2 mods of this quality

DivX example
http://www.evasion3d.com/gfx/mw/pics/run.avi