No hands stupidity!

[Kronotaur]

How come HL2, HLE1, HLE2...are the ONLY fps games that for some bizarre reason don't show hands when operating turrets or drive vehicles, this is very annoying because it is out of sync with the representation of the rest of the game.
It's like it's some kind of relict from the past that has been forgotten.
Why is it so hard to have hands in the two instances when driving vehicles or operating turrets like in every other FPS?
The question itself is stupid and bizarre.

 

[Kronotaur]

Is it possible to get an answer straight from the developers? I would really like to know what the deal is with this, it's so strange.

 

[Pulse]

It's because Gordon can drive and shoot with his mind.

Also you've gotta have a wank break every now and again. Especially if it could be your last D:

 

[Kevin]

You don't see hands in Far Cry also.
But the hands would mess it up.
They would block your view.

 

[Link]

Because vALVE want the player to feel like they]/b] are Gordon. So, if you see your hands/feet, it reminds you that your not, because what you see dosen't match what your arms are doing. Obviously they make an exception for holding guns because hovering guns would disrupt the immersion more than showing hands.

Given that they are the developers of one of the biggest selling gaming franchises ever, I say let them decide.

 

[Kronotaur]

Hmm, these are incredibly stupid reasons, isn't it obvious that no hands on the steering wheel or turret also breaks immersion in a pretty significant way?

Why do you feel the need to make excuses for obvious omissions that can't be rationalized?

And what does that have to do with generally undisputed quality of the game?

 

[losttheskyagain]

Even though I myself need [and see] my hands while driving or turning wheel cranks, Gordon does not. All that radiation has given him insane powers. Powers like not providing a shadow, not having feet or legs, and being able to survive uncanny situations.

Personally, I wonder where he hides all his weapons.

 

[Kevin]

Hmm, these are incredibly stupid reasons, isn't it obvious that no hands on the steering wheel or turret also breaks immersion in a pretty significant way?

OBVIOUSLY you just don't have time or no need to see, if there are hands on the wheel...you've got more important things to do like blowing up hunter choppers and shooting at combine or avoiding antlions and just getting out of the vehicle to do something...

That doesn't affect the game at all.
You can't say "HL SUKX!" just because there are no hands on the wheel.

 

[Xendance]

OBVIOUSLY you just don't have time or no need to see, if there are hands on the wheel...you've got more important things to do like blowing up hunter choppers and shooting at combine or avoiding antlions and just getting out of the vehicle to do something...

Yeah...
I'm to busy shooting the chopper down in Water Hazard, than looking at where my hands are meant to be and shout ... "OMGOD NO HANDS!"

 

[Pulse]

Hmm, these are incredibly stupid reasons, isn't it obvious that no hands on the steering wheel or turret also breaks immersion in a pretty significant way?

Why do you feel the need to make excuses for obvious omissions that can't be rationalized?

And what does that have to do with generally undisputed quality of the game?

Riddle me this Mr. Pedantic;

Why do we not view the world through Gordon's spectacles? Why do we not see his legs or feet when we look down? Why do we not see Gordon using his arms when climbing ladders?

Simply because they are unnecessary, cosmetic and impractical features that would create appeal similar to that of a blind man bird watching.

 

[AJ Rimmer]

Just a quick question: I can't think of an FPS where I always see my hands when opening doors or climbing ladders. Steering cars, yes. However, a really good reason is that if you saw Gordon's hands when doing all those things, you'd have to show them when holding onto all the physics objects he can pick up, and that would be really hard to code/animate.

 

[Link]

Why do you feel the need to make excuses for obvious omissions that can't be rationalized?

I'm not making excuses, this question has been asked many times, as you would know if you'd got off your lazy arse and done a search, that is what valve has said. How about you go create a best selling fps game, then come back and critise how valve do it? So, we'll be seeing you about half past never then?

 

[ríomhaire]

Because the first person view of the hands is not a world model that can interact with other objects in the game world. They are only plastered on to your view. Having to get hand models to interact with other objects is difficult (Look at Deus Ex, where a lock-pick is held in front of you and is clearly not interacting in any way with the actual door). Attempting to make your hands do all sorts of crap like opening doors (Which I can never, ever remember seeing in an FPS) takes allot more effort than it's worth. Plus, can you imagine the pain the ass it would take to make driving of the buggy while aiming the gun look good? Especially since you can aim the gun in any direction while the other hand would still be gripped to the steering and still make this look natural. Far too much effort for hand that are only going to block your view.

Going back to my earlier point about opening doors: The character would have to put away the gun, reach out and open the door. This would take control away from the player during the time that it takes to open the door (though it is only a short amount of time). This could be potentially disastrous seeing as it could force the player to stand in an open doorway for a second while not having a weapon ready. The loss of control would also hamper immersion (the very thing you were trying to help).

And just to restate and emphasise an earlier point: It’s about seventy times more effort than payback.

 

[Asknoone]

Umbongo, is that you?

 

[Kronotaur]

OBVIOUSLY you just don't have time or no need to see, if there are hands on the wheel...you've got more important things to do like blowing up hunter choppers and shooting at combine or avoiding antlions and just getting out of the vehicle to do something...

That doesn't affect the game at all.
You can't say "HL SUKX!" just because there are no hands on the wheel.

For f**k sake stop being so childish, of course there is time for everything and what does that possibility of preoccupation have anything to do with an obvious omission?

 

[Kronotaur]

Riddle me this Mr. Pedantic;

Why do we not view the world through Gordon's spectacles? Why do we not see his legs or feet when we look down? Why do we not see Gordon using his arms when climbing ladders?

Simply because they are unnecessary, cosmetic and impractical features that would create appeal similar to that of a blind man bird watching.

I was not planning to go into that but this is very simple:

1.Chronicles of Riddick :Escape From The Buthcer Bay
2.F.E.A.R.
3.Dark Messiah Of Might And Magic

As you can see they are superb games that show full body(everything you mentioned) thus giving greater immersion(especially 3.), and for some reason HL2 is not showing that thus making HL2 inferior to them in this respect because it is unwhole, it is screaming ratonalization of incompleteness.
So, what was it you were trying to say?

P.S.
@riomhaire
I would really appreciate it if you would stop forcing and inventing issues that I haven't started or mentioned. I specifically said two instances-steering wheel and turret, like in every other FPS.

 

[Pulse]

For f**k sake stop being so childish, of course there is time for everything and what does that possibility of preoccupation have anything to do with an obvious omission?

How can something be omitted when it wasn't even designed to be there in the first place? Perhaps you should cease the childishness.

I was not planning to go into that but this is very simple:

1.Chronicles of Riddick :Escape From The Buthcer Bay
2.F.E.A.R.
3.Dark Messiah Of Might And Magic

As you can see they are superb games that show full body(everything you mentioned) thus giving greater immersion(especially 3.), and for some reason HL2 is not showing that thus making HL2 inferior to them in this respect because it is unwhole, it is screaming ratonalization of incompleteness.
So, what was it you were trying to say?

HL2 may be inferior as you put it in comparison to those other games featuring fully visible limbs (lol) yet it is superior in almost every other way, shape and form.

I'd pick game play over limb count any day. Continue with this thread it's amusing!

 

[ríomhaire]

I was not planning to go into that but this is very simple:

1.Chronicles of Riddick :Escape From The Buthcer Bay
2.F.E.A.R.
3.Dark Messiah Of Might And Magic

As you can see they are superb games that show full body(everything you mentioned) thus giving greater immersion(especially 3.), and for some reason HL2 is not showing that thus making HL2 inferior to them in this respect because it is unwhole, it is screaming ratonalization of incompleteness.
So, what was it you were trying to say?

P.S.
@riomhaire
I would really appreciate it if you would stop forcing and inventing issues that I haven't started or mentioned. I specifically said two instances-steering wheel and turret, like in every other FPS.

Fair enough, TBH I just skimmed over your post before I ranted

But I did lay my point down about the driving.

Oh, and I haven't played the others but FEAR does not show you doing everything. It does not show you opening doors, swapping weapons, picking up items/ammunition or using medkits. Therefore it is unwhole; it is screaming ratonalization of incompleteness.

And now that I'm on the subject of FEAR and showing your body. I was on a stairs in FEAR, I crouched and started to aim my assault rifle because there were enemies coming. You know what I saw? My arm was going through my leg.

In another part I was on a ledge aiming down at enemies when I noticed that my left leg was floating in mid-air. When you can see your reflection in a puddle I realised that I was in a strange, unnatural and damn awkward possition. This fully-body crap distracted me hugly and took alot away from the immersion. HL2, on the other hand, is one of the most immersive games I have ever played.

 

[Asknoone]

Kronotaur answer me or be punished: are you or are you not Umbongo. It ain't like you've done anything wrong, so I won't ban you, but hey, I'm guessing it's obviously you because you have all the makings of a stupid argument.

Only you somehow learnt to spell. Find Microsoft word, did you?

 

[Remus]

Oh, and I haven't played the others but FEAR does not show you doing everything. It does not show you opening doors, swapping weapons, picking up items/ammunition or using medkits. It also does not contain any parts in which you drive a vehicle or operate a turret (That isn't remote-controlled) so I don't see why you bring that game up because it doesn't even have the things that you want HL2 to have.

However from what I've seen in videos (apart from opening doors) Crysis will have all those things, including animations for picking up physics objects.

How can something be omitted when it wasn't even designed to be there in the first place? Perhaps you should cease the childishness.

The issue here is why the hell were these things omitted IN THE DESIGN PROCESS

HL2 may be inferior as you put it in comparison to those other games featuring fully visible limbs (lol) yet it is superior in almost every other way, shape and form.

In your opinion

I'd pick game play over limb count any day. Continue with this thread it's amusing!

The only amusing thing is watching all of you coming up with rationalisations for these things.

Threads like this never cease to piss me off, and it's not just that you cant see your hand on the steering wheel or things like that, but also the related issue that there are NO MIRRORS just so you don't see yourself and break immersionz!!111
I'm so glad no other game producer has adopted a similar "design" decision.

How about you go create a best selling fps game, then come back and critise how valve do it? So, we'll be seeing you about half past never then?

As a costumer that bought a product (in this case PC game) it is my god damn right to criticise. But then again I'm also free to just not play it if I don't like it... *Leaves thread*

 

[Hellrider]

FEAR's display of the body sucked,when you look down , you see your leg, and ONLY your leg, wtf?

The only game out of the 3 you mentioned that did it nicely was Dark Messiah but i still prefer no hands&legs&whatever.

 

[Yorick]

I can't understand why anyone even gives a shit. FFS it doesn't matter. Go ahead and model/code it if it means that much to you.

 

[Asknoone]

but also the related issue that there are NO MIRRORS just so you don't see yourself and break immersionz!!111

Explain (logically that is), how this is an "issue". Because the relevance that has to anything in the game is gently falling into oblivion.

 

[MJ12]

this is a silly arguement, cant we all just make love and get along?

 

[Asus]

I would say it breaks down to saving time and how they want the player to interact with content in the game.

Is it possible to get an answer straight from the developers?

Wrong forum. Although you are probably better off not sifting through mess over there.

 

[ríomhaire]

you are probably better off not sifting through mess over there.

From what I've gathered he caused some of the mess over at Steampowered and got banned from there 3 times.

 

[Que-Ever]

I used to love answering this question, but now it just bores me, so you can go dig through my posts if you really want to know the answer. Look for some key words, like millions or idiot or whatever.

this is a silly arguement, cant we all just make love and get along?

We would, but we don't want his kind getting any further along.

 

[Link]

Ok, your starting to irritate me now.

First, there is a difference between critising and flat out stating that someone is doing it wrong. You are in no position to say that, because, lets face it, you are in the minority of people in the invisible hands good/invisible hands bad debate.

And its not just Pulses opinion that half life is better, it is general consensus, as evidenced by tens of reviews and hundreds of votes.
fear
riddick
Might and magic
half life 2

Now, I can understand what your saying, however, valve make games they think that players may like, and take design desisions based on this. And they are cleary on to a winning formula given that they have one of the longest running franchises in FPS history.

 

[McGooTheWise]

Explain (logically that is), how this is an "issue". Because the relevance that has to anything in the game is gently falling into oblivion.

Geet em' samon!

Seriously, if it means that much to you, make the coding for all that shit, and send it to valve, they can put the codes in the new games, and update the other games, and make it OPTIONAL. Because halo 2 with the legs thing is all I wanted with hl2. I just wanted the idea that I was driving a body instead of a floating head. I realize I'm in an H.E.V. suit, and it doesn't matter what our body looks like, the H.E.V. suit, and legs would still look the same. Besides that, we know we're driving Gordon, and we know what he looks like. He's on the package for god's sakes. in halo, I feel that Master chief would be ****ED on legendary if I wasn't driving him. And for the time I'm playing, my name is Master Chief.

But really I'm on the mid line of this argument. I think the legs in Halo 2 were perfect, because they never interfered with the view. Also in the game all you saw was a guy in a suit. Sure he's 6'7, but he is anonymous. We have no idea what he looks like. All I can tell is that it's my head in that helmet. We never saw what he looked like. Maybe valve should have made a cooler looking design of the helmet for the H.E.V. suit, and made it an attachment, and put mirrors in anyways. It would work. Sure his name's Gordon, but we'd have no idea what he looks like, so he could just be us, and we have a hot 20 year old girl nipping at our heels that is captivated by us.

On the other hand, chief had a voice, which is ridiculously deep, and though my voice is quite deep, it sounds nothing like his, so the story lost touch with that. I don't think that seeing Gordon holding objects, and throwing them is that big a deal though... I mean... Who holds everything they pick up like they can't move their fingers? I don't clap onto objects. To code the hands for picking up things like pallets, and barrels it would take a rediculous effort and there would have to be several different codes for the angles. Also, with the cans, and bottles and stuff, Gordon in reality would probably hold it off to the side, but we would obviously occasionally forget we were holding it if it did do that, which would inevitably cause us to waste health and time throwing a beer bottle at a combine soldier dressed in futuristic bullet proof armor. Also, it's not really that big a ****ing deal. It's a game, not virtual reality. Let Valve make the game the way they intended it. I don't want to have to wait any damn longer for episode 2 just cause 2 ignoramuses want valve to put in hand animations and legs. if Valve didn't put it in half life 2, they're not gonna put it in ep 2. Get over yourself.

This great game will go down in history for dramatic story telling, incredibly revolutionary realistic physics, the first game to have just as many muscles in the model's bodies as in reality, and awesome damn graphics, along with great game play. Not because it included HAND animations, and active feet, when driving, operating turrets and when walking. If it's gonna kill you to play a game like that just because Gordon doesn't have hands on his steering wheel, and just because he has no legs/feet, then why don't YOU ****ing make the animations?

Why did you make a mountain out of a mole hill? It's just an animation. The game's developers were avid gamers once, as we are now. Hell, they're getting more and more young people in on the project every day. these kids they're getting will put in great gameplay elements. Any experienced gamer will tell you that it's quality over quantity. if you went to see a movie with a bunch of special effects, but you had no idea why these people were shooting each other, and the action and the stunts sucked... You'd want your money back, right? Same with a game. if a game has a bunch of extra reality perks, and gadgets and gizmo's you can work with, an OOH! You can see your hands while you're shooting a turret! This game is awesome! Well... If the gameplay factor sucks, you're not gonna find much use of that turret. I advise you to get some Riddilen, cause if you lose focus that easy on what you should be trying to do, to say it's annoying and the "problem" is an easy fix, when you have no idea wtf you're talking about, then you really should be on something dude. Shoot the combine soldiers. Don't look at the side of the turret, and say "OMG!!1!11! Dehr be no handz turnin teh turretz! Ohh noes! Dis game sux!!1!" Cause you're gonna get your ass knocked off buy that Energy Orb flying for your head.

Honestly, I don't want to have decorations on my game, it only wastes space. I don't care if I have feet. If I'm really playing the game I wouldn't care if I could see my feet, I'd be trying to kill the bastard shooting at me. Maybe that's what you need to do. If you go into a counter strike server and stare down cause you wanna see your feet, you're gonna get your head blown off. If you wanna go to a Death Match Server and watch your characters hands lift up an object, you're gonna get a cinder block to the head. There. You just wasted half an hour of my life and an entire day of yours.

You called down the thunder, now reap the whirlwind. >: D

That was all my opinion, and i spoke my mind. As is my right. ^^

And if you still don't get it, don't try to pick this apart, because that would make you look like more of a retard than you'd ever want.

THANK YOU!

 

[Iron_cube]

Simply because it's a legacy matter.

We couldn't see our hands in HL1 when using turrets or buttons. Valve wanted to keep it that way.

Get over it.

 

[McGooTheWise]

Simply because it's a legacy matter.

We couldn't see our hands in HL1 when using turrets or buttons. Valve wanted to keep it that way.

Get over it.

Damnit... he said everything I said in a sentence and 2 words...

Ohh, and I just noticed the title of the thread is "No hands stupidity." Are you actually implying that valve is STUPID because they didn't put in unnecessary, useless, time consuming animations? *Shakes head in disappointment* Theres goes my evening...

 

[Flyingdebris]

I don't buy into the immersion factor of not seeing what i expect i should be seeing. Nor do i think that just because the first game had it/didn't have it, all others must follow.

That line of thinking leads to stagnation

And for those that say is cosmetic and doesn't matter, you could say the same about facial animations, lip syncing, and decent voice acting, but goddamn how that added to the game.

The little things DO matter. Valve is good, but they are not perfect. And frankly being able to see stuff like climbing animations, my own feet, and stuff of that nature, would add a whole lot to the overall experience.

 

[tfotdead]

lolz, i think hes gone now...
good job everyone! :E

 

[McGooTheWise]

I don't buy into the immersion factor of not seeing what i expect i should be seeing. Nor do i think that just because the first game had it/didn't have it, all others must follow.

That line of thinking leads to stagnation

And for those that say is cosmetic and doesn't matter, you could say the same about facial animations, lip syncing, and decent voice acting, but goddamn how that added to the game.

The little things DO matter. Valve is good, but they are not perfect. And frankly being able to see stuff like climbing animations, my own feet, and stuff of that nature, would add a whole lot to the overall experience.

Well Like I said before, if you want it then make a mod for it.

I surely wouldn't mind it, and I'd download it for sure, but I'm saying that Valve wants to get the overall game out there, instead of putting in tiny details to make the gaming experience better. let valve release the game and someone else comes out with that sort of thing. It'd be like a community project with the developers. For giving us such a great game, we help them make it better. I think for me the legs would do it though.

 

[Narvi]

People, if legs and such show up while you're on the buggy, people would wonder where they are normally. What if you were looking down while entering the buggy, hmm? Would legs just show up out of nowhere? Games like FEAR or Chronicles of Riddick don't have any vehicle sequences. Even Halo goes into third person whenever you enter a vehicle.

 

[Que-Ever]

People, if legs and such show up while you're on the buggy, people would wonder where they are normally. What if you were looking down while entering the buggy, hmm? Would legs just show up out of nowhere? Games like FEAR or Chronicles of Riddick don't have any vehicle sequences. Even Halo goes into third person whenever you enter a vehicle.

Look ma, no hands.

 

[Narvi]

Look ma, no hands.

The hands disappear out of view when you get into a vehicle. What about it? Legs and body appearing out of nowhere would be harder to depict.

 

[Kronotaur]

I'm so glad no other game producer has adopted a similar "design" decision.

Me to, obviously everyone else who made FPS or are going to make do not have such bizarre concepts.

To me three things are especially irritating:
1.climbing on ladders-some sort of stupid gliding and when you see superb climbing ladders in Dark Messiah of Might and Magic you just see how stupid no-body-HL2-concept really looks.
2.steering wheel without hands? OMG could they be more lazy, it looks just awfull!
3.operating turrets

Also, it is worth to mention that a lot of other low budget FPS games do not use HL2 bizarre concept.

It is truly a sad day when presumably accidental lazyness related omissions become some sort of trademark of uniqueness and centerpoint for silly rationalizations.

 

[Asknoone]

Answer this, or receive a ban in the next 5 minutes: Umbongo, or not Umbongo?

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

The answer to all your questions.

http://www.valvesoftware.com/people.html

Valve employees and their email addresses. I suggest that you email them to get the answers you so desperately want.

Oh, wait, that won't work because you're only doing this to provoke a reaction just like all the other crappy trolls. Oh well.