On Iraq ... (from an Iraqi)

[hasan]

I was gonna post this in the "china rather than islam" thread but it's too off-topic for that thread, so I'll open a new one.

For those who don't me I'm Sunni/Arab Iraqi, I'm here to enlighten you with my views on the situation in Iraq now.

I never was (and inshallah never will be) supporting US troops in Iraq, however, seeing how things are messed up, I am of the opinion that fighting the US military is not really what should be doing; we should be fighting the militias, alqaida, and the Iranian influence, even if it means cooperating with the U.S. invasion forces; because those things are much more dangerous to our future than the US invasion, even though the invasion was the direct or indirect cause for all of this mess.

A U.S. withdrawal now is not in our interest and will not benefit us one bit. It's just like when a robber comes into your house, wrecks it, then leaves, and you can't go after him!!
You think you've won over that thief?? Think again, stupid!
We can let them leave before they fix what they messed up.

Of course, I'm not the only Iraqi person with this opinion; which should be a reasonable explanation for the "awakening/sahwa" phenomenon.
I personally don't quite agree with the name "awakening" because it implies we were stupid and asleep.


As for the next US elections ..
My heart wants Obama to win but my mind tells me Obama is probably gonna pull and leave my country in a mess. I'm sort of counting on the stupidity of Americans to elect someone who wouldn't pull so fast .. but also that some one might even make it more messy than it is now. who knows? man it's so messed up I don't know what to think.

While we don't want them to pull so fast before they help us fix the situation, we don't want them to totally get back on their feet such that the end results turns out to be that we helped the US invasion control the political future of the country.
It's sort of a lose-lose situation. but one loss is much less catastrophic than the other.

TBH I sort of want the US to attack Iran, but at the same time I'm afraid that it will make the situation even worse and open the three fronts (Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan) together and turn them into one front. Which is not gonna help things settle in any way, shape, or form.

But either way, Iran has to become weaker such that it can't intervene in Iraq anymore.

 

[Beerdude26]

Why do you want the US to attack Iran?

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Its nice to see a perpesective of someone from Iraq. What do you think the optimal course of action is? Should the US put more troops in, try and cooporate more with the iraqi armies, what?

 

[RjD]

Interesting. Thanks for posting

 

[CptStern]

hasan correct me if I'm wrong but you're currently living in canada?

 

[RjD]

Um? Hasan's From Canada? ... .... ......

 

[mastapenguin]

Not too big an issue. Had Hasan stayed in Iraq he would first of all have a fair chance of being dead, and second probably wouldn't be able to post here anyway. Which doesn't mean he can't have well informed opinions about his home country.

The question we really need to ask is, if you do live in Canada at the moment, when did you move there, and under what circumstances?

 

[hasan]

Why do you want the US to attack Iran?

Because I think Iran is responsible for much of the mess in Iraq *. They're responsible directly for the sectarian cleansing in Baghdad, Basra, Baquba, etc.
what I want is for them to be weakened so that they can't intervene in our biznis anymore.
Having the US attack them could be one way of achieving that, but again it might also have more catastrophic side effects. If there are safer ways of weakening them I'll be most happy if they're taken.

*note: I also believe that the Americans allowed that to happen so that Iraqis stop fighting the Americans and start fighting each other instead. They probably didn't think it'll end up this way. **

The question of who's responsible for that is now secondary, we should stop the mess first, because this idiotic pointless civil war can go on for ever and no one will achieve anything. In the end, the US will leave, and Iran will step in.

I've written alot against US crimes in Iraq, but dammit, Iran is far far more evil, in fact they make the Americans seem like peace pigeons. Saddam even more so.

** By ending up this way, I mean having the power and influence end up being in the hands of Iran rather than the hands of the US.

P.S.
My place of residence is not relevant to the topic. My family moved out of Iraq long before the war.
Unless you're implying I don't know what's going on there ...

 

[CptStern]

nope, just thought you should clarify you're not currently in iraq


btw my parents are from spain ..I was born in canada however that makes me an expert on spain

 

[Emporius]

btw my parents are from spain ..I was born in canada however that makes me an expert on spain

Mockery does nothing to help this discussion.


@ Hasan:

I had never really thought about the implications from the native's side of the withdrawal, thanks for kind of opening the window there

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

The problem with an invasion in Iran was that it would end up exactly the same as the Iraq invasion - a huge bloodbath that achieved nothing and only weakened relations with the Middle East further.

 

[No Limit]

So hasan, it's clear that you happen to be pissed off at Iran. I'm sure Iran being an enemy of your home country long before this war started has nothing to do with that anger?

Why do you not seem as upset about what Saudi Arabia is doing over there? Should we be bombing them?

And as Stern said, I was personally born in Poland and actually lived there until I was 8. How long did you live in Iraq? Speaking for myself here but I would never claim to be an expert on Poland based on the simple fact that I lived there for a while as a kid. In fact I know very little about the actual Polish history and the current culture.

 

[CptStern]

Mockery does nothing to help this discussion.

who's mocking? just following his logic

 

[Emporius]

He never said he was an expert on Iraqi History and/or political situations, only that he could give a view that few of us get to hear.

 

[ríomhaire]

Stern stop trolling for God's sake.

 

[OmegaX]

Well I'm glad you called us Americans stupid. Makes me think highly of you.

 

[[Matt]]

Americans are not stupid. The phrase I would use would be "politically ignorant of anything outside of US borders".

 

[Escaep]

Hasan:

If this is a personal question you do not have to answer it.

What do you think the Iraqi Citizen death toll is? Sub 100,000s or up in the millions?

 

[Mr Stabby]

Americans are not stupid. The phrase I would use would be "politically ignorant of anything outside of US borders".

That's still a sweeping generalization.

 

[leib10]

As for the next US elections ..
I'm sort of counting on the stupidity of Americans to elect someone who wouldn't pull so fast ..

With all due respect, this sounds to me like a pretty unappreciative statement. You are counting on the "stupidity" of Americans to do what you would want America to do- to stay in your country and continue to fight (and die) for it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds as if you have a little more respect for the people who are fighting for your country, whether it is in its best interests or not.

Also, just as you demand that not all Muslims be labeled as terrorists, you should also give Americans the fact that not all of them are politically ignorant or stupid. Such generalizations reflect poorly on the validity of any argument you may make.

 

[hasan]

Well I'm glad you called us Americans stupid. Makes me think highly of you.

meh, like I care.

but it sounds as if you have a little more respect for the people who are fighting for your country

Are you nuts?? Did you read the first line of my post (not including the intro)?

Don't ever make the stupid remarks that American soldiers are dying for Iraqis!! That's the dumbest thing you could ever say.

All I'm saying: You can't just step in to mess up Iraq then leave as it is; after the damage has been done.
If we were in 2004, I would want nothing more than your army leaving my country as soon as possible.

However, now it's different. I don't just want the invasion forces to leave and let Iraq be ashes.
You (or we) messed up the country real bad. Now, you probably don't want to leave the country as it is because:
1- It'll seem like you lost to terrorists
2- You spent billions for what? to hand Iraq over to Iran?? Riiiiight, that's money well spent!!

We don't want you to leave so soon because:
1- It will probably seem like the invasion lost the war, but it won't be the case that Iraq has won. refer back to the robber analogy in my first post.
2- US goes out, and Iran will step in right away. They won't stop at Iraq, they'll want to swallow the whole gulf countries along the way.

So, there's a common interest!
Fix the security situation and end the civil war. We want that and we've shown that we can do it.
Cut down the influence of Iran as much as possible.

Also, just as you demand that not all Muslims be labeled as terrorists, you should also give Americans the fact that not all of them are politically ignorant or stupid. Such generalizations reflect poorly on the validity of any argument you may make.

Look, 51% did elect Bush for a second term. Does that tell anything???
It doesn't say all Americans are dumb, it just says there's a good chance that they may be dumb enough to elect the neo-cons once again.

Stern:
Unlike you, I have lots of ties back to my home country.
I have lots of 'insiders' if you wish to call them so,
I can read lots of articles that you can't read (because they're written in Arabic), etc.

True, my view is only my personal one, but sometimes I share it with Iraqis who have lived through the mess and they seem to agree.

Did you read the link I gave about the awakening movement? It should be an evidence that many people are having similar ideas.

What do you think the Iraqi Citizen death toll is? Sub 100,000s or up in the millions?

I have no idea, it's a scary thought that I'd rather not think about.

The problem with an invasion in Iran was that it would end up exactly the same as the Iraq invasion - a huge bloodbath that achieved nothing and only weakened relations with the Middle East further.

I know man!! There's the possibility that it'll only make things worse.
On the other hand, you can take the lessons from Iraq to avoid making the same mistakes again.


Just a couple of days ago, a big fight started emerging between the Mehdi militia and the Government.
That's supposed to be a good thing but I don't know what results will it lead to.

Why do you not seem as upset about what Saudi Arabia is doing over there? Should we be bombing them?

No, Saudis weaklings, they can't do anything without the permission of "mama amreeka".
True, many qaeda personnel came from there, but we can handle that stuff. I mean they're just a bunch of militias, I don't think the Saudi gov't is behind them.

Iran on the other hand, is a strong state, and they are behind many militias, providing financial and logistic support.
The Iraqi Army that could handle Iran was disbanded, and now the majority of the local security forces in Iraq have mixed loyalties and many of them are more loyal to their sect or to Iran than they are to Iraq.

 

[leib10]

If they're not dying for your country, then what are they dying for? Our security? Hardly; Iraq even under Saddam was not a credible threat to the US. No, they are dying so that your countrymen could have a shot at a better life, and although at times it would seem better if we just left, like you said it would basically hand Iraq over to terrorists or Iran.

 

[CptStern]

If they're not dying for your country, then what are they dying for? Our security? Hardly; Iraq even under Saddam was not a credible threat to the US.

then why did the US invade if iraq wasnt a threat?

No, they are dying so that your countrymen could have a shot at a better life .

you cant possibly believe this

 

[Solaris]

then why did the US invade if iraq wasnt a threat?



you cant possibly believe this

I believe that.

We have liberated the Iraqis from Fascism and helped them construct a democratic state. New enemies of freedom have emerged but together we are fighting them.

 

[Escaep]

then why did the US invade if iraq wasnt a threat?



you cant possibly believe this

edit: nvm.

 

[No Limit]

I believe that.

We have liberated the Iraqis from Fascism and helped them construct a democratic state. New enemies of freedom have emerged but together we are fighting them.

You're bipolar, aren't you?

Or did some one hack your account?

 

[No Limit]

I believe it.

I'll ask you this but Solaris can step right in too if he wants.

If all we cared about was Iraqi people why did we lie as to why we were going there in the first place? If we care about the Iraqis why are we bombing entire buildings to take out one target? If we care so much about Iraqis why are we trying to steal the profits from their oil?

 

[Mr Stabby]

Aren't the enemies of freedom in Iraqi, actually Iraqi militias? The vast majority of the insurgency are of Iraqi origin. The main problem is sectarianism not Islamic extremism.

 

[No Limit]

No, Saudis weaklings, they can't do anything without the permission of "mama amreeka".
True, many qaeda personnel came from there, but we can handle that stuff. I mean they're just a bunch of militias, I don't think the Saudi gov't is behind them.

Iran on the other hand, is a strong state, and they are behind many militias, providing financial and logistic support.
The Iraqi Army that could handle Iran was disbanded, and now the majority of the local security forces in Iraq have mixed loyalties and many of them are more loyal to their sect or to Iran than they are to Iraq.

So you honestly think that Iran is a stronger state than Saudi Arabia? You do realize that Iran's GDP per capita is 7 times smaller than that of Saudi Arabia? Iran spends about 3% of their GDP on their military while saudi arabia spends 10%.

But why don't you be honest, you already explained why you don't care about Saudi Arabia while you care so much about bombing Iran, I'll just quote you:

I'm Sunni/Arab Iraqi,

So please, lets be honest about your reasoning.

You are the perfect example of why we can't do anything to help Iraq. Half of your country shares your view while the other half doesn't. And in each half you have plenty of people that are willing to blow themselves up over that simple fact. There is nothing we can do to control that, the sooner we get out of there the sooner they will fight their civil war and the sooner things might get back to normal. By staying there we are simply delaying the inevitable. I think I have been saying that on this board for over 3 years now, and in that 3 years nothing has changed in regards to that fact.

 

[Solaris]

I'll ask you this but Solaris can step right in too if he wants.

If all we cared about was Iraqi people why did we lie as to why we were going there in the first place? If we care about the Iraqis why are we bombing entire buildings to take out one target? If we care so much about Iraqis why are we trying to steal the profits from their oil?

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe the humanitarian argument to be persuasive enough for me to support the war.

I certainly do wonder if the USA was motivated by oil, but it's not really relevant. The fact is they have brought a fascist dictator who committed genocide to justice and in his place put in the provisions for a democratically elected government.

After reading of the horror's that Saddam perpetrated against socialists, trade unionists, kurds and political opponents. How he tortured them to death, destroyed whole villages.

I simply do not know how the left could oppose the removal of this man. Then I began to research those who I had marched alongside in the protests outside the labor party annual conference last year (the party who I have now joined) and was further shocked.

The Muslim Council of Britain won't condemn the death sentence for apostasy. I realised I had marched holding one of their placards. It was certainly an unholy alliance between Islamists and the Socialist Left.

I want nothing to do with it. I stand my comrades of the Iraqi Socialist party who hold that the duty of the left is to oppose fascism.

 

[Escaep]

I'll ask you this but Solaris can step right in too if he wants.

If all we cared about was Iraqi people why did we lie as to why we were going there in the first place? If we care about the Iraqis why are we bombing entire buildings to take out one target? If we care so much about Iraqis why are we trying to steal the profits from their oil?

-_-. If you go back to my post you'll see that i edited it.

 

[CptStern]

I believe that.

We have liberated the Iraqis from Fascism and helped them construct a democratic state. New enemies of freedom have emerged but together we are fighting them.

been rehearsing official party think speak again? those words ring hollow in light of how little democracy is in evidence ..especially since those in power are no better than those they replaced

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/26/iraq10053.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/world/middleeast/05iraq.html

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=35096

 

[Solaris]

been rehearsing official party think speak again? those words ring hollow in light of how little democracy is in evidence ..especially since those in power are no better than those they replaced

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/26/iraq10053.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/world/middleeast/05iraq.html

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=35096

That's certainly worrying.

****, I don't know where to stand.

 

[Polaris]

For those who don't me I'm Sunni/Arab Iraqi, I'm here to enlighten you with my views on the situation in Iraq now.

Are you more Sunni or Iraqi? That's what is wrong with you people, your stupid denomination of religion and silly ethnic and religious conflits. I'm Czech Caucasian atheist and no one gives a shit here.

 

[repiV]

The only reason anyone actually gives a shit about Iraq is because the media tells them to. Like Maddie ****ing McCann.
The whole escapade is a fallacy from any of the commonly held justifications.
WMD? Er, yeah.
Removing a threat to the West? Hardly.
Saving the Iraqis? Who gives a toss? We're not a charity (and for that matter I'm not aware of any other charity that pays in trillions, blood, lives and political fallout), and even so the events that have played out have quite clearly demonstrated that Iraq could neither benefit from our help, nor does it deserve any of it. Ungrateful tossers committed to a brutal existence devoid of civilisation, in any eventuality.

The real reason behind it all is probably something to do with asserting US global dominance over the next half a century. In which case, what the hell are we doing over there?

To add insult to injury, people spend their days obsessing over and even voting based on Iraq, when there are far more serious problems to contend with right here at home. The major political contenders in both the US and UK are all vacuous idiots devoid of substance peddling the same brand of authoritarianism, centralisation of power, nannying and eco-fascism, replete with entirely vague promises of "change" - while the battles are fought over irrelevancies like Iraq and abortion. I despair.

 

[CptStern]

The only reason anyone actually gives a shit about Iraq is because the media tells them to. Like Maddie ****ing McCann.

what are you shitting me? the troglodytes that bleed over the McCann story (virtually un reported in NA) are the same type that ignore the plight of iraqis ..in fact in the 5 years of the war public perception is only NOW starting to change ..i mean I was virtually alone in declaring the war a sham back in 2003 ..I got a lot of heat for it too

To add insult to injury, people spend their days obsessing over and even voting based on Iraq, when there are far more serious problems to contend with right here at home.

perhaps in your neck of the woods but besides feel good stories of soldiers missing loved ones and the odd incident report the media is still fairly positive towards iraq ..I know it might not seem to be so in europe but most NA media still give the iraq war the thumbs up ..just flip on CNN, I wont even mention fox

The major political contenders in both the US and UK are all vacuous idiots devoid of substance peddling the same brand of authoritarianism, centralisation of power, nannying and eco-fascism, replete with entirely vague promises of "change" - while the battles are fought over irrelevancies like Iraq and abortion. I despair.

war, a war your country is involved in is NOT irrelevant, for someone who has a history of supporting the military you'd think you'd be the last person to say that ..and in the US abortion is STILL a big issue ..some states are moving to abolish it altogether ..this is the biggest push from the christian right in as long as I can remember, they're actually making progress

 

[repiV]

what are you shitting me? the troglodytes that bleed over the McCann story (virtually un reported in NA) are the same type that ignore the plight of iraqis ..in fact in the 5 years of the war public perception is only NOW starting to change ..i mean I was virtually alone in declaring the war a sham back in 2003 ..I got a lot of heat for it too

I meant in the sense of people whose support or otherwise is based on humanitarian issues that aren't solely to do with the morality of our involvement.
Where is their outrage over Darfur? Or Kenya? Or any of the other many, many humanitarian crisis which plague our world, often far worse than Iraq - but which aren't as trendy? Why do these same people support inhumane monsters like Fidel Castro?
I believe that most of these people are utterly selfish, and their "humanitarian concern" - be it for people in Iraq, or the environment, or animal rights, or whatever, is really just a vehicle for them to elevate their own status and push their agendas. It's all about petty politics, not empathy for the common man.

perhaps in your neck of the woods but besides feel good stories of soldiers missing loved ones and the odd incident report the media is still fairly positive towards iraq ..I know it might not seem to be so in europe but most NA media still give the iraq war the thumbs up ..just flip on CNN, I wont even mention fox

The war has never had public support over here. Ever. Most people assumed it was all about oil pretty much straight away.

war, a war your country is involved in is NOT irrelevant, for someone who has a history of supporting the military you'd think you'd be the last person to say that ..

It's important, certainly, but not compared to the deluge of domestic problems which are being ignored or exacerbated under a torrent of lies and deceit, while our society continues to fall apart.

and in the US abortion is STILL a big issue ..some states are moving to abolish it altogether ..this is the biggest push from the christian right in as long as I can remember, they're actually making progress

It isn't a big issue. It's not something that campaigns should be fought over - in the grand scheme of things, whether abortion is legal or not is inconsequential compared to the greater ****ups politicians are visiting upon us every day.

 

[CptStern]

I meant in the sense of people whose support or otherwise is based on humanitarian issues that aren't solely to do with the morality of our involvement.

who are these people? I've been following the iraq war since the first gulf war and humanitarian concerns have never been an issue to anyone ..hundreds of thousands died during the sanctions exacerbatyed by western hands and yet no one seems to give a shit ..people are dying in the droves every single day and people would much rather tune in to see what Britney is up to. Very few people care about the plight of iraqis.

Where is their outrage over Darfur? Or Kenya? Or any of the other many, many humanitarian crisis which plague our world, often far worse than Iraq - but which aren't as trendy? Why do these same people support inhumane monsters like Fidel Castro?

who are these people? solaris? have you gone to any of these anti-war protests? people are very aware of the issues behind the war, I always learn a thing or two ..what you're seeing is people in your own age group who wear their heart on their sleeve, but that's only apart of the movement ..all age groups are represented here, not just people who have dreads and wear Che t-shirts

I believe that most of these people are utterly selfish, and their "humanitarian concern" - be it for people in Iraq, or the environment, or animal rights, or whatever, is really just a vehicle for them to elevate their own status and push their agendas. It's all about petty politics, not empathy for the common man.

congradulations you've just stepped into the real world ..every single motivation ever is in part self motivated it's inescapable ..why do people give to charity? cuz it makes them feel good ..there is nothing wrong with empathising with your fellow man while doing something for yourself at the same time ..if it's not in part self-serving no one would ever do anything ...but at least they're doing something

The war has never had public support over here. Ever. Most people assumed it was all about oil pretty much straight away.

yes I remember, it seems there's only one country that believed the WMD nonsense

It's important, certainly, but not compared to the deluge of domestic problems which are being ignored or exacerbated under a torrent of lies and deceit, while our society continues to fall apart.

let me guess, at the hands of immigrats ..look that's your particular political sign to hang around your neck, just because people put more importance in other issues doesnt make them any less valid

It isn't a big issue. It's not something that campaigns should be fought over - in the grand scheme of things, whether abortion is legal or not is inconsequential compared to the greater ****ups politicians are visiting upon us every day.

it's a huge issue, espcially since many candiadates ran with the platform to do away with the cornerstone of the abortion movement: the roe vs wade case

..in the 2004 election republicans added same sex marriage state votes in many key jurisdictions that many say pushed them into victory ..the religious right know which buttons to push to get their man elected

 

[repiV]

who are these people? I've been following the iraq war since the first gulf war and humanitarian concerns have never been an issue to anyone ..hundreds of thousands died during the sanctions exacerbatyed by western hands and yet no one seems to give a shit ..people are dying in the droves every single day and people would much rather tune in to see what Britney is up to. Very few people care about the plight of iraqis.

Anyone and everyone who hyperventilates about the poor Iraqis (or indeed, the Palestinians and the Lebanese - it's utterly remarkable how millions of sheeple form exactly the same opinions about a whole array of completely separate issues, with almost identical justifications in each case. It's almost like a religion).
Indeed, they didn't care before, because it wasn't trendy, but now it's the hot button issue I have to listen to people wailing about the poor Iraqis.

who are these people? solaris? have you gone to any of these anti-war protests? people are very aware of the issues behind the war, I always learn a thing or two ..what you're seeing is people in your own age group who wear their heart on their sleeve, but that's only apart of the movement ..all age groups are represented here, not just people who have dreads and wear Che t-shirts

I'm not just talking about kids. Why is is that anyone who opposes the war in Iraq on humanitarian grounds (or even supports it on the same basis), will in the majority of cases claim the Falklands War was an act of imperalist aggression by Britain, believe that Israel is an evil oppressor, support government social engineering and heavy taxation to enforce their blinkered worldview and think Castro is a really great guy?
The Mayor of London and even the deputy leader of the Labour party see the asshole as some kind of legendary hero.
It can't be an accident. It isn't. With such an illogical and contradictory collection of viewpoints shared across such disparity of issues in what you might call the "new left", it can only come down to ignorance and faith. Either that, or it's all just a convinient excuse to dismantle capitalist commerce and industry one piece at a time. No rational person could believe all of the above simultaneously, and yet that is today's mainstream. And those views, by and large, are the guiding force behind British politics today (popular or not, they're in charge).

congradulations you've just stepped into the real world ..every single motivation ever is in part self motivated it's inescapable ..why do people give to charity? cuz it makes them feel good ..there is nothing wrong with empathising with your fellow man while doing something for yourself at the same time ..if it's not in part self-serving no one would ever do anything ...but at least they're doing something

The difference is that I don't pretend to be some kind of altruistic saint. The 21st century left are selling Western society up the river under the insulting guise of altruism - and it lets them get away with anything, even if their policies actually end up hurting the very people they supposedly intend to help (which is usually the case). But noone dares challenge them for fear of the irrational backlash.
After a decade's worth of leftist policy and social engineering, we've actually ended up with an incredibly selfish, dysfunctional society where law-abiding citizens are harassed over minor issues and criminals can do as they wish with impunity. Noone dare help out their fellow man for fear of the repercussions. And all the while the noose is tightening, the opposition party offers more of the same and we're busy arguing over Iraq, or some other issue which doesn't mean jack shit when our own house is crumbling.

yes I remember, it seems there's only one country that believed the WMD nonsense

let me guess, at the hands of immigrats ..look that's your particular political sign to hang around your neck, just because people put more importance in other issues doesnt make them any less valid

Uncontrolled immigration is but one symptom of the disease. The core sickness is that for the last decade or so, policies of the extreme left have been forced upon us time and time again by threat and bigotry. Whether that be our insane immigration policy, the road transport governance which is bringing the country to its knees and persecuting ordinary people, the handover of our sovreignity and democracy to EU bureaucracy when 90% of the population oppose this, or the eco-fascism which is actually doing nothing to help the environment, but is doing immesurable harm to both the poor and the economy - there is always one thing in common. The subversion of open discussion, the disregard for facts and science, the contempt for democratic process.
And, to support that, the obsession over relatively unimportant issues. Iraq, abortion, gay rights, whatever...none of this shit is going to make life much different for the vast majority of people. It's insignificant, people argue over it while politicians of all shades run amok with total disregard for our rights or our quality of life. But people are too busy squabbling over irrelevancies to care. Frankly with a population so apathetic, I have to wonder whether we even deserve democracy.

it's a huge issue, espcially since many candiadates ran with the platform to do away with the cornerstone of the abortion movement: the roe vs wade case

..in the 2004 election republicans added same sex marriage state votes in many key jurisdictions that many say pushed them into victory ..the religious right know which buttons to push to get their man elected

Right, it's a huge election issue - but it shouldn't be. I really don't give two shits about same sex marriage, and I don't understand why most people would either. It's an intellectual issue, not one that's going to have any major impact on my daily life - those are the issues that really matter. And none of the bastards have any concern for the things that really matter.
After all, Westerners are still moving to China in their droves - their human rights record is appauling, political freedoms laughable...but it offers a better deal for barely qualified expats in many cases than our own home countries do for middle class professionals. The "silent majority" is being ignored, and thus we see the brain drain.

 

[<RJMC>]

solaris guess what was written in the flag of iraq

he meaning of the three stars was changed from their original geographic meaning to representations of the three tenets of the Ba'ath party motto, Wahda, Hurriyah, Ishtirakiyah (Unity, Freedom, Socialism).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Iraq