One step closer to tyranny

marksmanHL2 :) said:
You honestly think Iraq would have used a nuke given the chance?!


Not even saddam was that stupid/insane.

Nuclear weapons are used as threats these days. If you dont have one then you have very little political power compared to those who do. If sadam was developing them then it wouldnt be because he wanted to nuke someone. Well its highly unlikely anyway.
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No, but what if he happened to 'lose' a nuke to an Al Qaeda operative?
 
Respond to my statement clarky. How about the UN resolution. How about your own articles that contradict yourself. Respond to those posts if you have the guts.
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not every atricle contradicted me,, but each story was different,.. doesnt that tell you something doesnt add up.. you know common sense :rolleyes:

Its not that I dont have the guts, I just cant be arsed. :P, especially when I know its going to be directly Biased responses. and a Biased argument isnt a very rational argument atall.. plus im tired of wasting my energy arguing when I can be working for my mod team. which I must do right now infact :).
 
seinfeldrules said:
No, they are the exact same thing. If we had done somehthing against Germany while we had the chance, then millions of lives could have been spared. If Iraqi scientists had continued work on a nuclear bomb who knows how many lives could have been lost. And there are links between the Iraqi secret police and 9/11. Ill go grab the links.
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but you didnt do anything about it, you sat back and watched Hitler take over poland, france etc. It wasnt until you were attacked that you joined the war effort

oh read this:

from the horses mouth
 
Read the date on that article... Cpt.Stern. I am also saying the US was wrong back then not to do something, same with the rest of the world. Seems we agree on that :cheers: . You just proved my point.

And clarky you still refuse to address all the facts against you. You have no argument and have come up with numerous excuses to not address my facts. If you have nothing more to offer in the way of any argument, why bother posting? Im tired of wasting my energy on foolish responses such as this. It is incredible that through all the facts, you still think the war was over oil.
 
who cares what the date is? was already over and the occupation was 6 months old....it's not like there's been any new developments. The US has long given up using that tactic
 
Mr Bush did however repeat his belief that the former Iraqi president had ties to al-Qaeda - the group widely regarded as responsible for the attacks on New York and Washington.
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asdjfhaskd 10 characters alskfjas
 
Interesting tidbit from the article (BBC one) as well

On Wednesday, Mr Bush said Mr Cheney was right about suspicions of a link between Iraq and al-Qaeda, citing the case of Jordanian Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a leader of an Islamic group in northern Iraq called Ansar al-Islam believed to have links to al-Qaeda.

The US believes Mr Zarqawi received medical treatment in Baghdad and helped to orchestrate the assassination of a US diplomat in Jordan.
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Now correct me if I am wrong, but wasnt Zarqawi the one who executed Nick Berg in Iraq. Hmmm.
 
al queda hated Saddam...he was hardly supportive of a secular government. they attemped to assinate saddam on two seperate occasions. Osama hated Saddam because he collaborated with the US...you still havent answeered any of my questions, you just keep throwing in unsubstatiated statements
 
CptStern said:
Neutrino I can see your point but....this war is illegal, this occupation is illegal, so much of this war is called into question that you cant help but be on one side or the other because the lines were drawn when bush uttered these words:

"You're either with us or against us "

that doesnt leave any room for shades of grey
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I actually tend to agree with you for the most part. I should have probably worded my above post better. I was mostly referring more to the whole issue about the war being just about oil.

Also, I do see what you mean. But I still think there can be a lot of grey areas in this war.
 
seinfeldrules said:
Interesting tidbit from the article (BBC one) as well



Now correct me if I am wrong, but wasnt Zarqawi the one who executed Nick Berg in Iraq. Hmmm.
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that is still in dispute. Sources claim he was killed months before in a bombing of a training camp
 
al queda hated Saddam...he was hardly supportive of a secular government. they attemped to assinate saddam on two seperate occasions. Osama hated Saddam because he collaborated with the US...you still havent answeered any of my questions, you just keep throwing in unsubstatiated statements
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Show me your questions. I am only providing a valid historical context as the back drop to my answer.
 
Neutrino said:
I actually tend to agree with you for the most part. I should have probably worded my above post better. I was mostly referring more to the whole issue about the war being just about oil.

Also, I do see what you mean. But I still think there can be a lot of grey areas in this war.
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I dont think you were unclear....hmmm I know some people think it was about oil but that's only part of the picture. Taking iraqi oil was never a goal...having a foothold in the middle east was/is
 
This and the "Patriot Act" are complete and total bullcrap.

It's one thing to be careful, its another to be totally paranoid and bend the law and people's rights to fit your plans.

This ****ing scares the crap out of me and makes me angry at the same time... I'm a Venezuelan living in Texas on a visa which means if these ****ers wanted to they could somehow make me a prisioner and then TORTURE me for no reason other than "we think you might be a terrorist".

This is going too far already, I cannot believe this sort of crap is even happening. Wasn't this stupid country founded by immigrants to begin with? Now ever since 2000 immigrants are getting the shaft and are getting trampled over by the government. I basically have NO rights other than the right to live these days and now with this piece of crap legislation I don't think I even have that anymore.

I can't even begin to explain how ****ing angry I am...
 
CptStern said:
al queda hated Saddam...he was hardly supportive of a secular government. they attemped to assinate saddam on two seperate occasions. Osama hated Saddam because he collaborated with the US...you still havent answeered any of my questions, you just keep throwing in unsubstatiated statements
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I find it a little odd that Osama hated Saddam considering the fact I keep on hearing people talk about how the US also helped Osama at one point. It makes sense for them to work together, Saddam had money, power, and they both shared the same enemy.
 
On these critical issues the administration has so far won by default. The assumption that a war to overthrow Hussein would be a just war and one that, if it succeeded without excessive negative side effects, would serve everyone’s interests has gone largely unchallenged, at least in the mainstream. The administration’s justification for preemptive war is the traditional one: that the dangers and costs of inaction far outweigh those of acting now. Saddam Hussein, an evil despot, a serial aggressor, an implacable enemy of the United States, and a direct menace to his neighbors must be deposed before he acquires weapons of mass destruction that he might use or let others use against Americans or its allies and friends. A few thousand Americans died in the last terrorist attack; many millions could die in the next one. Time is against us; once Hussein acquires such weapons, he cannot be overthrown without enormous losses and dangers. Persuasion, negotiation, and conciliation are worse than useless with him. Sanctions and coercive diplomacy have failed. Conventional deterrence is equally unreliable. Preemptive action to remove him from power is the only effective remedy and will promote durable peace in the region.

*not written by me, but I thought it was valid.
 
Rico said:
This and the "Patriot Act" are complete and total bullcrap.

It's one thing to be careful, its another to be totally paranoid and bend the law and people's rights to fit your plans.

This ****ing scares the crap out of me and makes me angry at the same time... I'm a Venezuelan living in Texas on a visa which means if these ****ers wanted to they could somehow make me a prisioner and then TORTURE me for no reason other than "we think you might be a terrorist".

This is going too far already, I cannot believe this sort of crap is even happening. Wasn't this stupid country founded by immigrants to begin with? Now ever since 2000 immigrants are getting the shaft and are getting trampled over by the government. I basically have NO rights other than the right to live these days and now with this piece of crap legislation I don't think I even have that anymore.

I can't even begin to explain how ****ing angry I am...
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I don't think there are any countries out there that like immigrants, it may be hypocritcal but from what I can see, the people living in most countries don't like imigrants.
 
a pre emptive strike is illegal...the US signed the accords
 
a pre emptive strike is illegal...the US signed the accords
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Iraqis fired at us in the No-Fly zone. Furthermore, those accords need to be updated into the modern world. I agree with much of what they say, but some of the laws make little or no sense in the modern War v. Terror.
 
it still doesnt make it legal. The US cant pick and choose what international laws they want to uphold ...oh sorry they already have
 
it still doesnt make it legal. The US cant pick and choose what international laws they want to uphold ...oh sorry they already have
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How about Saddam using chemical/bio weapons against his own people. Is that not a breach? If the Iraqis fired upon us, it is not a preemptive attack now is it?
 
Also, how about this as a declaration of war

"[O]ur striking arm will reach [America, Britain and Saudi Arabia] before they know what hit them."
Al-Qadisiyah, October 6, 1994 (State-controlled newspaper)
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"t is possible to turn to biological attack, where a small can, not bigger than the size of a hand, can be used to release viruses that affect everything..."
Babil, September 20, 2001 (State-controlled newspaper)

"The United States must get a taste of its own poison..."
Babil, October 8, 2001
 
saddam used wmd on the Kurds days before Rumsfeld came to meet him...the whole world knew about his atrocities but the US did nothing, they continued to welcome him as an ally

making plans with a devil
 
ok .. there are something that need clearing, and somethings that tick me off.

First of all, Iraq is not your colony .. it's not your daddy's possession! You can't decide what we can have and we can't. we have every right to possess nukes and WMDs .. man .. if we had them you would be scared to hell to just think about invading us.

Why can you have them while we can't??! oh .. becuse we would use it against you?
ok look, Saddam is not that stupid, he knows that America has more nukes and WMDs than he can ever dream to possess .. he knows they can nuke us entirely if he ever tries to nuke them.

Ever wondered why the U.S. didn't invade the soviet union?? THEY HAD NUKES! do you think they will invade North Korea? heh ... hell no, they too have nukes .. or maybe 'a' nuke, and WMDs too <<<< they know Korea's wmds are real .. not like Iraq's <_<
They didn't invade Baghdad in 1991, most likely because we had WMDs back then .. but now we don't, and that's why they did it this time.

No-Fly Zones are Illegal .. and we have every right to shoot at any aircrafts prohebiting us from using our own sky. It's not even a UN thing ..

Saddam killed 2 millions? I don't know where people get these numbers .. but America killed half a million child some indirectly through economic sanction and some semi-indirectly by depleted uranium...
This uranium has a half-life of about something 4 million years or so .. i.e. it will stay forever.

In WWII none was right .. all sides were wrong. 55 million people were killed, and not all of them were killed by Hitler. I think Russia had the bigest loss, but germany for example lost alot too .. I think around 3 milion people died in Germany alone (guess who killed them?).

If there is something we should learn from WW2 and Hitler, it's this:
Bush is going on the same path of Hitler ..
both were elected (didn't start out as tyrants).. they wanted to restore dignity to thier country (answering 9/11 -- getting back control over german land), then slowly started to occupy countries .. (to unify the german people / liberate iraq) ..
next thing you know ... Hitler takes over europe! I don't know what bush will do next :x

oh btw, Saddam was a bad guy, and if I could've removed him I would. But Saddam is one thing .. and America is another ...

ok I'll give you a little example. more than 100 years ago, before even communism, Russian had a ceaser .. and people hated this ceaser, he was basically a tyrant. BUT -- it so happened that Germany decided to go to war with Russia (I don't know the historical background of this war), so what happened next? Did the Russians see this as an oportunity to get rid of the ceaser??? hell no. they forgot all about him and thier focus was to defend thier country.
 
No-Fly Zones are Illegal .. and we have every right to shoot at any aircrafts prohebiting us from using our own sky. It's not even a UN thing ..
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It was part of the Peace Agreement the Iraqis signed.

And the Germans mostly died from defending their country. How can you say the allied side was wrong? Really, your whole post doesnt make sense because you take the most absurd points and actually defend the Nazis.

And how did America kill those children? Through sanctions? Is it our job to look out for children living in other countries ruled by people bent on killing us? No, you cannot blame every death in the world against America. And if Bush is really like Hitler, why is he even allowing elections to take place? That is such an unfounded, completely ridiculous statement. You realize that Americans would never allow that to happen. The military and civilian population would stop him long before anything like that happened, which it wont.

And you place Saddam above America in terms of human rights? O yeah, bad boy America only donated 15 billion dollars to fight AIDs. How much did Saddam kill? How many people did he directly kill (none of this indirect crap)?
 
humph! you cant continue arguing like this seifeldrules...you never bring a shred of proof to back your claims. The US purposefully bombed civilian targets in the first war such as water treatment plants and sanitation plants. Most of the 30,000 children dying every month died of diseases related to having a poor water supply. The US admitted it killed thiose people when Madeline Albright said this in an interview:

"In 1996, when queried on CBS's `60 Minutes' as to whether the death of a half million children was worth the price, Albright's response was, `That's a tough question, but yes we think the price is worth it.'"
 
Directly .. hmm about 30,000+ :D not so much is it? he's a good guy ^_^ we all love him.

Nazis .. Saddam .. America .. I know how they compare to each other, I didn't defend no Nazis, I didn't say Saddam is Better than America in terms of human rights. But both are bad anyway. Maybe you should read my last paragraph again??

And let me repeat it: None was right in WWII, the allies were just as bad as the axis. how can I say that? maybe I can, because Thanks God I have a mouth, and I can type it, because I have a keyboard and two hands.

You realize that Americans would never allow that to happen.
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I'm not so sure ... but if it's for your own good, why wouldn't you allow it?



:: EDIT ::
ok the only diference is that the axis started it and the allies were pretty much in a state of self-defense. But they both committed atrocities.
 
Why, because it is completely against American ways. Trust me, if I would be willing to remove Bush from office, anybody in America would.

I suggest you tell me how the Allies were just as bad as the Axis. I really am interested. Then remind me again who started the war. Thanks.
 
ok, you list the things that make the axis bad first .. then I'll show how the allies aren't so good as you think.
 
hasan said:
ok, you list the things that make the axis bad first .. then I'll show how the allies aren't so good as you think.
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Have you ever watched Shindlers(spelling?) list? That contains alot of the atrocoties that the Nazis did.
 
The Allieds actually bombed hundreds of German civlians undiscriminately, gathered the Japanese nationals in America in camps and so on.... but i don't remember them making them extermination camps.
 
From all the assumptions, consolidations and calculations made, the overall Japanese democide in World War II can now be estimated (lines 381-384), and Japanese democide in China included (line 386). This gives a total democide of 3,056,000 to 10,595,000 with a likely mid-total of 5,964,000 people killed.
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These genocides cost the lives of probably 16,315,000 people. Most likely the Nazis wiped out 5,291,000 Jews, 258,000 Gypsies, 10,547,000 Slavs, and 220,000 homosexuals. They also "euthanized" 173,500 handicapped Germans. Then in repression, terrorism, reprisals, and other cold-blooded killings done to impose and maintain their rule throughout Europe, the Nazis murdered more millions including French, Dutch, Serbs, Slovenes, Czechs, and others. In total, they likely annihilated 20,946,000 human beings.
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I realize you are going to use the USSR and the number of Allied killed will also be quite high, but I was mainly referring to GB and the US in my claim as they were what the entire discussion was revolving around until this.
 
Yes Spraga you are correct about the indiscriminate bombing against Germany, but then again Germany was the first to use this tatic against Britian. Also, the Americans did kill thousands of people in Japan, but that was an attempt to end the war (same in Germany). What we failed to realize was the leaders of each respective country had no heart for the thousands being killed around them on a daily basis. Think about this: If we hadnt nuked Japan we would have been forced to invade. That would of cost an estimated 1 million American troops. And if 1 million troops had perished; think about how many Japanese would have died. It would have been an unthinkable number.
 
seinfeldrules said:
Yes Spraga you are correct about the indiscriminate bombing against Germany, but then again Germany was the first to use this tatic against Britian. Also, the Americans did kill thousands of people in Japan, but that was an attempt to end the war (same in Germany). What we failed to realize was the leaders of each respective country had no heart for the thousands being killed around them on a daily basis. Think about this: If we hadnt nuked Japan we would have been forced to invade. That would of cost an estimated 1 million American troops. And if 1 million troops had perished; think about how many Japanese would have died. It would have been an unthinkable number.
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Agreed, if the US didn't drop the bombs then instead of hearing "YOU AMERICANS ARE SO HYPOCRITCAL!!!111!1 YOU ARE THE ONLY ONES TO DROP AN ATOMIC BOMB!!11!"

We would be hearing:

"HOW CAN YOU AMERICANS SAY YOU STAND FOR JUSTICE AND TRY NOT TO HURT CIVILIANS WHEN YOU KILLED MILLIONS WHEN YOU INVADED JAPAN!!11!!1"

Or something along those lines, and then of course there are the really ignorant to think the US could have simply not dropped the bombs or invaded Japan and should have just left them alone. In which case it wouldn't have been long before Japan decided to attack the US again.
 
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