Only 40% of Americans accept evolution

[CookieCuttah]

The subject gets more-so interesting, so I really feel the need to intercept. While I have not worked a lot with the theories of evolution beyond the premises of the concept, I still wish to have some input on the subject.
For most of my scientific discussions I have assumed Evolution to be true, just as Electricity has been true. Why? Because even though electricity is a theory it brings amazing results of which we harness daily, to disprove it would be nigh impossible without having some solid results. The same thing applies with Evolution: We have harnessed the basic concepts of it for a long time to fight diseases, the idea of our cells evolving to fight a threat is not a new one. My true reasoning for accepting it is because it yields results and is very intricate along with applicable in its usage.
Religion on the other hand, what can you say about it really? It attempts to prove itself right in every way except simply providing evidence, because it fails to do this I have no belief in it whatsoever. Another thing about it is the loose interpretation of the divine document which many people see as a different thing; therefore, by default religion isn't either concise or reliable.

evolution can never be fact, since facts are mathematically proven and you cant prove evolution mathematically. the only way evolution can be disproven is something else comes along that better fits the problem

I am not quite sure how you see mathematics as the only fact, because mathematics just like every other form of measurement has been created by man. Fact is simply something we commonly accept as true, because it is quite possible that there exists an exception in the universe. I really cannot see your logic, because quite frankly it seems there is none. If you really wanted mathematical proof just use Mendel's method: look at his chart, grow flowers, record the result. Most likely than not your flowers will have traits close to his measurements of what kind of % chance there is for them to be white/yellow, etc.

 

[Apos]

evolution can never be fact, since facts are mathematically proven and you cant prove evolution mathematically. the only way evolution can be disproven is something else comes along that better fits the problem

Actually, it's more complicated than that. In a colloquial sense, common descent is a fact in the same way that Bill Clinton was President is a fact. In a scientific sense, of course, facts are always provisional on the evidence, and evidence is provisional on other evidence, and so on. And in that sense, you are quite right: nothing is a settled absolute fact: it's all just the best we have until something better comes along, if anything ever does. Still, that doesn't mean that it's wrong to call something a fact, as long as we keep in mind that this is based on strong evidence, and all evidence is always open to question. Likewise, we have to be consistent. If we want to claim that it is a fact that Hawaii was formed from volcanic activity, then we can't then claim that evolution isn't a fact, because evolution is just as well established. We have to be consistent in our usage so as not to get confused.

Mathematics, like all artificially defined systems, definately has absolute proof... though only if you accept the axioms. However, even in math we use the term "theory" because theory is not really a measure of something's certainty, but rather a word used to describe something that's an entire body of explanation and linked concepts.

Evolution is both fact (in the colloquial sense) and theory, that is: it is a fact that evolution happens/happened and that common descent is true. Evolution is also a theory as to WHY it's true and how it happens. Like many theories, these explanations themselves rely on facts, laws, and all sorts of other things.

 

[PvtRyan]

Watching Apos argue is like seeing a train smash into a car. And by train, I mean nuclear bomb.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Surefire way to prove evolution: the testicles. Why do you think one is higher than the other? (to prevent them from bumping against each other, that is honest, scientific fact).

Wow, I never knew that (I ain't bieng sarcastic). :naughty:

 

[Apos]

Watching Apos argue is like seeing a train smash into a car. And by train, I mean nuclear bomb.

In case people don't like reading my long winded posts, they can simply refer to this helpful instructional video:
http://ownedtoys.ytmnd.com/

 

[Bull Goose Loony]

while i havent read any of the previous 7 pages of far more informed and intelligent argument, i felt it was ony fair to point out that while only 40% of americans accept evolution, less than 40% of the rest of the world take americans seriously.

 

[Solaris]

Hmm... We observe life evolving into increasing complexity? Can you give me an example of a life form that has changed in time and we have observed it? I mean besides micro organisms.



True Creationism is religious BS



All the evidence is based on observations from nature right? Well the fact of the matter is we just haven't observed any living thing turn into something else.
Like I said before the only things that change at an alarming rate are micro organisms, for example bacteria. Even micro organisms change only minor things when they adapt to lets say a new vaccine but at the core they remain the same.



Evolution isn't the only theory, but it certainly is the most famous.



Let me explain why I think it's bogus. Take the evolutionary trees with different stages showing an animal change into something else, if you do a little bit of researce you come to the startling conclusion that some of those creatures dubed as "evolutinary stages" actually existed at the same time as the evolutionary result of the tree. What's the logical explanation to this? The creatures that are considered stages are actually complitely different species, but I'm the on with a lack of knowlage so you probably already knew this . So untill I se an animal change into something else I'll still call it BS.
I guess if evolution is true we'll al get super powers soon, X-men for real!

PS: Did you know the changes that can be observed on life forms in nature are called micro evolution?

wow. You show absolutely zero comprehension of the theory of Evolution. You don't understand it at all. Your saying aload of bullshit that has nothing to do with evolution.

Idiot.

 

[Llama]

pwnt?

 

[Ome_Vince]

Let me see if i memorized it well (so please correct me if i'm wrong ):
The evolution theory on organisms is a combination of these 3 points, which cause new species to "evolve":

-Sporadic mutation which causes some random mutation.
-dam, forgot this one, but its something with environment. Sometimes the sporadic mutation gives the organism an advantage, or sometimes a disadvantage the environment determines if its advantage or disadvantage.
-Survival of the fittest determines the sporadic mutation becoming a "new organism" because of its advantage over the others who, or perish because of its disadvantage.

Hehe, perhaps thats how blond-women came to existance: sporadic mutation produced 1 blond women -> all men wanted her because in an environment of dark-haired women, the blondes are king -> tadaaa.

hehe, anyways, i'm more of history-dude, so must have made some mistake somewhere.

 

[Apos]

Evolution is actually more than just natural selection and speciation, which is what you are describing, but basically you have it.

Think of a population of organisms. There is random noise being added to members of this population, increasing their total genetic variation. However, these creatures face a selection gradient: the environment. They can't all survive and reproduce equally well, so non-randomly, some traits are favored and others are not, based on the sort of environment that's around. The result is that the population's variation is whittled down again in a non-random direction (though really, the rate of variation is pretty much always increasing even as its being whittled down), changing the frequency that certain traits are found in that population. Over time, this means that the population can change: heading off in particular directions of evolutionary development. Note too that what this process is doing is imprinting information about the environment onto the population's gene pool.

Now, what's thought to be the most common speciation is when two different populations of the same original species no longer come into reproductive contact for a long time, and start to face different environmental challenges. The result is that their development heads off in different directions. If this process goes on long enough, then you'll find that when you bring them back into contact, they will no longer interbreed, or cannot. This is basically how we define speciation (though, due to the nature of evolution, there is no good way to define species because species is a hard line, and evolutionary biology almost never makes it that simple).



That's the basics.

 

[kirovman]

Everytime I hear the words "It's just a theory" I die a bit inside.

If you don't know anything about scientific method, then read about it before you start on your misguided statements.

I suggest you start off with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it often does in other contexts. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from and/or is supported by experimental evidence (see scientific method). In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations that is predictive, logical and testable.

Oh and, thanks for the good read Apos, I enjoyed it.

 

[CptStern]

No need to be angry. Just a friendly debate. I'm sorry you have to be an asshat and get upset and call people names

It shouldnt be treated factual, it's a theory.

man read the dozen or so posts above yours ..it's not a "theory" ..you started this creationism vs evolution debate the least you could do is read people's posts who've addressed your statements

 

[Apos]

It shouldnt be treated factual, it's a theory. That doesnt mean it shouldnt be taught. We all seek the truth in the end. Where did we come from and where are we heading. Right? Just like in history, you've got a primary source, just because we've got a primary source doesnt mean it's completely accurate, alot of variables play in.

Again, though, you're just confusing yourself and others here. Yes, if you understand science, then nothing is certain fact and all things are provisional. However, for most people, they use the word "fact" in a particular sense that applies just fine to evolution as it does to all other facts.

If you are going to insist on the scientific understanding of fact, then you CANNOT, as you repeatedly do, contrast evolution with other supposed "facts" are are "solid diamond." There is no solid diamond anything if that's the meaning of fact you want to use. But you can't use one definition of the word for evolution, and then switch meanings for something else. That's just deceptive.

Also note that in science, "theory" is not something lower down on the rung of things from facts. Calling something a theory does not imply that it will one day become a fact when there is more evidence, or become a law. Theories are always theories. Instead, theories generally contain reference to facts and show how to explain those facts with more facts or established laws.

As compared too suggesting no speculation exists, it's solid diamond hard fact because that's not the case. Education is about exploring and investigating. It's an exciting journey that lasts a life time.

Indeed. However, it remains a true statement that evolution is one of the best supported things about the world around us that there is. If it isn't a fact, then you are using the word such that nothing can be called a fact.

 

[Absinthe]

No need to be angry. Just a friendly debate. I'm sorry you have to be an asshat and get upset and call people names

Your idea of "friendly" is cake and sodomy. And you still have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[CptStern]

Your idea of "friendly" is cake and sodomy.

hehe ..stuff them full of cake then when they're least expecting WHAM up the poopshoot :O

 

[Tr0n]

I like that idea.

Who wants to take it up the poopshoot?

 

[theotherguy]

evolution can never be fact, since facts are mathematically proven and you cant prove evolution mathematically. the only way evolution can be disproven is something else comes along that better fits the problem

on the contrary, I think that evolution is extremely mathematical in nature.

for instance, if you have the following features:
a changing environment
a self-replicating creature with genes
death of the creatures due to features of the environment

then you must get evolution. By default, the creatures that don't suit their environment die, and the ones that do live. By default, these creatures pass on their genes to the next generation. The next generation is now better suited for the environment than the previous generation.

There simply must be change over time if both the organisms and the environment are constantly in a state of change.

lets say you have 10 million random numbers.

Now, lets say that you have another random integer (constant)

Now, loop through the 10 million random numbers, and delete any number that is not divisible by constant.

After you have finished, all of the numbers are divisible by the constant.

Now, change the constant to another random integer.

repeat the process.

now your entire array is divisible by the second constant. the array has evolved.

 

[sinkoman]

i just dont understand why evolution is punctuated not gradual. but i guess i accept evolution. another weird thing is that humans are evolving now but the direction in which we are is unknown

Less hair, and taller.

(not joking)

 

[Danimal]

Our feet are also becoming less like hands.

 

[Solaris]

We're not evolving anymore, and haven't done for millions of years...

Sigh.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Average height has gone way up in less than a hundred years. Authentic suits of armour from medieval times are tiny.

 

[kirovman]

One day the average person will be a skyscraper.

If the human skeleton could physically support that load.

 

[PvtRyan]

We're not evolving anymore, and haven't done for millions of years...

Sigh.

Uhh homo sapiens is only about 200.000 years old

And evolution isn't a conscious process that can stop, but there's not much selection pressure.

 

[Solaris]

Uhh homo sapiens is only about 200.000 years old

And evolution isn't a conscious process that can stop, but there's not much selection pressure.

It is. Theres no longer much interbreeding and thus no evolution.

 

[Sulkdodds]

No interbreeding? Personally, I'm in an inter-racial marriage!

 

[kirovman]

There's plenty of interbreeding in Wales.

 

[Solaris]

There's plenty of interbreeding in Wales.

very little inter-speices breeding tho

 

[Ome_Vince]

Inter-racial marriages are the best thing! They create a new flow of diverse gene-pools making humanity strong!

 

[PvtRyan]

It is. Theres no longer much interbreeding and thus no evolution.

Interbreeding? What do you mean by that? Like making babies with your sister?

That's a bad thing, breeding with someone who has mostly the same genetic make-up as you. It's good to breed with those that have different genes, for more variation.

But if you mean by interbreeding with different races (or better said: variations of a species) then that's happening now more than ever, isn't it?

 

[Solaris]

Interbreeding? What do you mean by that? Like making babies with your sister?

That's a bad thing, breeding with someone who has mostly the same genetic make-up as you. It's good to breed with those that have different genes, for more variation.

But if you mean by interbreeding with different races (or better said: variations of a species) then that's happening now more than ever, isn't it?

Nope. You need small groups for evolution.
One genetic mutation makes no difference, you have to interbreed it so it gets exagerated and when your tribe, meets other tribe, your stronger skulls will help you kill them.

 

[ríomhaire]

People getting taller is not to do with evolution. It has to do with lifestyle and most importantly heat. People would always be freezing cold in winter due to lack of central-heating, warm clothes etc. This believe it or not inhibits the body's ability to grow somewhat. That's why eskimos are shorter than others.

 

[Asus]

I believe creatures change to fit their environment. But I don't exactly believe any of the evolution theories on how life started here. I don't believe Ape -> Human.

I'd answer differently in a poll on 'Evolution' depending on what the question specificly asked or what I thought it asked if the question was vague.

 

[PvtRyan]

I believe creatures change to fit their environment. But I don't exactly believe any of the evolution theories on how life started here.

Good thing then that evolution doesn't try to explain the origin of life. That's abiogenesis.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I don't believe Ape -> Human.

Why not? You don't believe the evidence presented, or you don't want to believe that we might have come from primates?

 

[CptStern]

I believe creatures change to fit their environment. But I don't exactly believe any of the evolution theories on how life started here. I don't believe Ape -> Human.

I'd answer differently in a poll on 'Evolution' depending on what the question specificly asked or what I thought it asked if the question was vague.

I dont know specifically what questions were asked in this particular poll but in this similiar poll very specific questions were asked. The percentages were somewhat different but it still overall paints the same picture

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=110024

 

[Apos]

I believe creatures change to fit their environment. But I don't exactly believe any of the evolution theories on how life started here. I don't believe Ape -> Human.

I've got bad news for you then: Humans are not only descended from apes, but the ARE apes.

By your definition, they are apes who changed to fit a particular environment (one that, presumably, saw value in being highly social and using hands and tools). But they are still apes by pretty much any standard you use to describe what an ape is compared to all other living things. The molars in your mouth are ape molars. No other species on the planet has molars like that: only apes. And you have them too. The same goes with all sorts of other features, including even the number of hairs on your body (other apes simply have thicker, longer hair, but the exact same area coverage). You have a shoulder structure that is distinctively that of an ape: unique to apes and only apes, and you included.

And that's even before getting into the genetic and fossil records both confirming the exact same story in the exact same way. They not only tell us THAT our ancestors were the ancestors of chimps and bonobos as well, but they tell us approximately when they lived, where, and what other sorts of cousins once lived alongside our ancestors that have now gone extinct, leaving only our family line.

The evidence is simply overwhelming.

 

[Solaris]

You know. I'm not an expert on Evolution.

But it's interesting the people who deny evolution, don't appear to have the slighest clue as to what it is.

 

[theotherguy]

We're not evolving anymore, and haven't done for millions of years...

Sigh.

every organism is, and always has been constantly evolving. Only the fitness factors change. Our fitness factors are no longer "eat as much food and keep your tribe as safe as possible" but more like, "be the most attractive to a mate and have more children"

Our selection has gone from natural selection to sexual selection, so it is indeed less obvious, but all of us are evolving in accordance to mate selection and ability to produce children.


also, the height and weight thing has more to do with nutrition than genetics, so it isn't true evolution.

What is true evolution is the fact that the average appendix gets smalelr and smaller, and wisdom teeth come in later and later. This is because genes which would have killed someone (like having a shrivled up appendix and no wisdom teeth) now no longer kill anyone, so the genes for shrivled appendixes and late-blooming wisdom teeth are mixed in with the general population, and in this case these genes are dominant, leading to an overall reduction in appendix size and later-growing wisdom teeth in the entire population. Eventually, the appendix could dissapear altogether, along with wisdom teeth (although such a change is unlikely)

 

[Asus]

Let me clarify.
The reason I don't believe humans came from apes is because I believe we were created. It's a time thing. I don't think life has been on the earth that long. I just believe we got here a different way. We don't disagree on the evolution proccess itself.

 

[delusional]

we all evolved from rats