per pixel hit accuracy?

I personally think per pixel hit detection is just a gimmick to make the game look better, it doesnt really do much, just eats CPU power. Hit box detection is much more efficient and flexible than per pixel.
 
Quotidian---, what was your first ban for anyways?

Anywho, heres the phrase: "If it ain't broke don't fix it." Because now you can make more hitboxes to fit the legs, arms, hands... etc.

Well, that's at least what I heard.
 
Are there any games that use high resolution hitboxes, and is it as efficient (CPU-wise) and effective as per-pixel/polygon hit detection?
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It is much more efficient than per-poly (one of the reason D3 is limited to only a few characters at a time). It can be just as effective, though you will always get the problem to SOME degree of "hitting" something when you actually should have just slightly missed it. In normal gameplay, it is very hard to distinguish the difference between a good hitbox and per-poly: it's the sort of thing you'd have to deliberately set up a deliberate close-range test to prove the difference to yourself.

At Quakecon, everyone was gushing about how the per-poly system made characters so much harder to hit, because you had to be more exact. However, the fact is that what they were comparing this too was Quake3... which essentially only had ONE single, same sized hitbox for the EVERY player model (including models that were bigger or smaller than standard). In all but slow-moving, close range and careful stuff, a good hitbox system can "feel" exactly the same: like you have to be pretty dead on.

At the very least, HL2 hitboxes probably have to match up with the collision hulls for the physics, which are pretty complex themselves.
 
Originally posted by Apos
It is much more efficient than per-poly (one of the reason D3 is limited to only a few characters at a time). It can be just as effective, though you will always get the problem to SOME degree of "hitting" something when you actually should have just slightly missed it. In normal gameplay, it is very hard to distinguish the difference between a good hitbox and per-poly: it's the sort of thing you'd have to deliberately set up a deliberate close-range test to prove the difference to yourself.

At Quakecon, everyone was gushing about how the per-poly system made characters so much harder to hit, because you had to be more exact. However, the fact is that what they were comparing this too was Quake3... which essentially only had ONE single, same sized hitbox for the EVERY player model (including models that were bigger or smaller than standard). In all but slow-moving, close range and careful stuff, a good hitbox system can "feel" exactly the same: like you have to be pretty dead on.

At the very least, HL2 hitboxes probably have to match up with the collision hulls for the physics, which are pretty complex themselves.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the detailed explanation! It all makes sense. :)
 
lets wait and see.
and if quotian was banned earlier, this post shows nothing deserving a ban (EXCEPT HIS PRESENCE!!1!1! HISS!!! /sarcasm end/)

perhaps he wanted the name, but had to add -- because it was already taken

GO benefit of a doubt! without it you can get into wars and other nasty things and come out wrong. . . or right :D
forget the allusion i made, dont want 10 more posts flaming the idea.
 
One thing that people aren't realizing is that per-polygon(Or per pixle.. whatever they're calling it now :D) hitboxes can make multiplayer unfair..

Take say... Tank Jr and Bones from Quake3.. With per-polygon hitboxes, you could hit Tank Jr with your eyes closed, while you could spray a room and potentially miss Bones on every shot. (Heh, I can't imagine the havoc this would cause for when some people have a certain model, while others don't..)

Valve's choice seems to be the best, since it uses less system resources, and creates a monoform hitbox that all player models can use.

Hopefully DoomIII multiplayer will use a seperate system. Per-polygon hitboxes will rock in singleplayer though :D

Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn
 
Damn I didn't know they still used hitboxes... WTF... I don't like that plan at all. Oh well... I'll get over it.

And as for Doom 3's Multi it uses the same system of per-poly/per-pixel which ever it uses... It'd be stupid for them to waste time having two different hit detection systems. And I understand what you mean with diffent player models being different sizes... But... I don't know for sure if Doom 3 at least when it releases will have multiple player models.
 
If per-poly hit detection is as CPU hungry as people say, then I'm not surprised Doom 3 multiplayer is limited to 4 players.
 
What does per-pixel hit detection REALLY add to the gameplay? Nothing really, too little to justify the cpu use.

But one thing I'm wondering: I believe Valve claimed that enemies and aliens will have decals on their body the place you've hit them. You can see it in some movies and screenshots.
Is this possible with regular hitboxes?
 
Originally posted by Chris_D
If per-poly hit detection is as CPU hungry as people say, then I'm not surprised Doom 3 multiplayer is limited to 4 players.
Click to expand...

Yes, I would guess in order for per-poly hit detection to work in multiplayer it would have to use client side hit detection, which would then give rise to latency problems/exploits, basically someone with a 56k modem would kill you long after you ran around a corner out of view. I believe it's also easier to cheat with client-side detection; if you lag it's like you've just selected 'bullet time' in Max Payne.

Server-side per-poly hit detection would basically eat up all the server CPU; the end result would be very high pings. I think Valve are wise to stay with the hit-box style of detection.
 
Originally posted by PvtRyan
But one thing I'm wondering: I believe Valve claimed that enemies and aliens will have decals on their body the place you've hit them. You can see it in some movies and screenshots.
Is this possible with regular hitboxes?
Click to expand...

well according to what someone said earlier these 'hitboxes' really aren't boxes at all, and are uniform to the player's body. thus the answer would be yes, in my opinion.
 
And BTW, the screwed up CS point-gun-at-floor-get-headshot thing happens not because there's anything wrong with hitboxes, it's just that CS guns behave in a very unrealistic way, when you're going full-auto the bullet paths spread out over a large cone, regardless of where the gun is actually pointing, so you end up with bullets going up and randomly hitting the head while the gun is pointing down because the head is just overlapping with the top of the cone.
 
Im okay with high poly hit boxes. I could care less about the per poly hit detection.
 
Would be nice for some more info on this really, we all know that hl2 uses hitboxes, but obviously this is slightly floored.
Based on this, there must be some new tech/method implemented in the hl2 hitboxes which make them desirable.
 
Originally posted by MaDMaXX
Would be nice for some more info on this really, we all know that hl2 uses hitboxes, but obviously this is slightly floored.
Based on this, there must be some new tech/method implemented in the hl2 hitboxes which make them desirable.
Click to expand...

I'd like to mention that Doom 3 isn't the standard we should compare things to. Just because a game doesn't have the same features as Doom 3 doesn't mean it's rubbish or flawed.

Hitboxes are perfectly fine for gaming, as long as they are implemented correctly. Nothing has changed that suddenly makes hitboxes really bad and unplayable. Half Life and it's mods use hitboxes and they are perfectly fine.
 
Based on this, there must be some new tech/method implemented in the hl2 hitboxes which make them desirable.
Click to expand...

HL2's higboxes are high poly...I doubt you'd see a difference in gameplay between per polygon and HL2's hitboxes
 
how did sof2 work then? becuase it had many seperate whatevers and reacted to each one in a different way (i'm sure you all know what i mean) yet didn't seem to use up alot of cpu??
 
Im wasn't really flaming you, and i don't normally bother mentioning if a thread has been done more then once, it's just that there have been so many about per-pixel hit detection that i thought i might as well mention it.

Don't worry about it...

It seems this thread has brought up some interesting ideas not talked about in the other similar threads.
 
Originally posted by Quotidian---
how did sof2 work then? becuase it had many seperate whatevers and reacted to each one in a different way (i'm sure you all know what i mean) yet didn't seem to use up alot of cpu??
Click to expand...

Each model consists of many boxes. See the attached picture of Barney.

When one box takes a certain amount of damage, the limb falls off.
 
FYI, SOF and SOFII both had per poly hit detection. It isnt so CPU demanding as you guys seem to think, and definately isnt the reason Doom3 has 4 player multi. I really dont know why HL2 doesnt use it... They have all these CPU cycles on inverse kenetics and shit but cant have simply per poly hit detection? And they use hitscan bullets? Sheesh.
 
I really dont know why HL2 doesnt use it... They have all these CPU cycles on inverse kenetics and shit but cant have simply per poly hit detection? And they use hitscan bullets? Sheesh.
Click to expand...

does it really matter? They don't make a difference when your actually playing
 
I guess the "updated" hitboxes allow other shapes than boxes, thus higher precision.
 
i think gabe said its possible to not use hitscan bullets....... so say you could create a sniper mod, in which all physics like wind gravity velocity are applied to a bullet and the bullet is an actual object.

would make for some cool tom clancy rainbow six reproductions :)

but i really don't like hitboxes persay, but if hl2's hitboxes are molded to the player, i don't see how it is any different?
 
i would like to say that allot of the other "features" in D3 dont add anything to the game or its gameplay, and so everyone who will buy the game will be dissapointed. The only thing good about D3 are the technical achievements considering gfx that kinda shit, but hey i dont think u will be missing per-pixel accuracy when ur hartbeats goes 180 bpm while playing HL2
 
hey i dont think u will be missing per-pixel accuracy when ur hartbeats goes 180 bpm while playing HL2
Click to expand...

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard on this board, almost. HL2 isn't meant to scare you, it's a good single player game sure, but it's not gonna scare you or get you that excited. That's D3, it's main focus is to scare you. Get the facts straight.
 
Forn1x, have you played Half-life 2 already?

How do you know that Half-life 2 will not scare you or get you excited?
Although it is probably not Valve's main focus, it is very stupid to assume that Hl2 will not give you some "Oh Sh*t" moments. I know that the original Hl has scared me plenty of times, ie. Icythosaur, Randomly Teleporting Headcrabs and plenty more.

It seems like a common misconception of Half-life 2 is that it is not designed to scare you at all. I don't know about you but when a 40-foot Strider is chasing me down City-17 while running through a firefight between City militia and Combine, it seems pretty exciting and scary to me...
 
Originally posted by schweppes
FYI, SOF and SOFII both had per poly hit detection.
Click to expand...
Actully they didn't. Both those games are based on versions of the Quake engine which does not support per-poly/pixel hit detection. And, yes, per-poly/pixel hit detection is incredibly expensive.
 
Heh, don't get me wrong guys, i wasn't saying anything bad or good re per pixel and d3, i'm just a techie interested in things that don't really matter :)
On that basis i just wanted to know what, if any, changes have been made to the hitbox system in hl2.

PS forn1x, not only is that very insulting, you're so far off the mark its unreal, don't go saying things like that until you have a basic grasp of whats going on, generally...
 
Valve's choice seems to be the best, since it uses less system resources, and creates a monoform hitbox that all player models can use.
Click to expand...

No reason there has to be a monoform for all characters. That's just what happened to be the case in some older games like Q3 and HL. I think the Wolfestien people added more complex hitboxes to the Q3 engine, though I can't be sure.

But one thing I'm wondering: I believe Valve claimed that enemies and aliens will have decals on their body the place you've hit them. You can see it in some movies and screenshots.
Click to expand...

Decal placement is not necessarily the same thing as hitboxes. Remember that the decals in HL would appear in the place you shoot a wall... that doesn't mean all game geometry had extra hitboxes set up. It seems like a different system altogether.
 
as long as its not lame hitboxes like that have in HL1 where you could shoot a guy in the neck and get a head shot or worse shoot hit head and hit nothing.. then there was that problem with people ducking in CS not being able to be shot in the legs.

perhaps they will move to improve this in future valve games... the days of hitboxes are close to an end for fps'
 
Originally posted by Mountain Man
Actully they didn't. Both those games are based on versions of the Quake engine which does not support per-poly/pixel hit detection. And, yes, per-poly/pixel hit detection is incredibly expensive.
Click to expand...

Wrong foo.
 
Erm, i don't think they did tbh, thtat would have been a major reprogramming excercise and thus mnetioned. Regardless of the fact that what you are referring to is locational damage, not per poly.
 
Originally posted by forn1x
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard on this board, almost. HL2 isn't meant to scare you, it's a good single player game sure, but it's not gonna scare you or get you that excited. That's D3, it's main focus is to scare you. Get the facts straight.
Click to expand...

Umm... I'm sure HL2 will have scary momments as HL1 had its own scary momments. While I agree its not crafted to be as scary as D3, I'm sure HL2 will make us jump a few times.
 
Originally posted by Xtasy0
SoF2 had per pixel hit detection, not sure about sof1.
Click to expand...

I think Raven added that to the Q3 engine for SOF2. If I remember correctly SOF1's hit detection and dismemberment wasnt as accurate as SOF2.

If it wasn't per-pixel it sure as hell looked like it. I remember shooting victims eyes out and the bullet would blow the back of their head out (hehe I know that sounds sick but I did that to any NPC who actually hit my in SP.)



:cool:
 
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