Personally I really want China to become a Superpower

[Calanen]

A friend of mine (a Texan) who has been teaching English in Taiwan for 5 years met up with me in Beijing. We compared notes and didn't find much different in the day to day life of Taiwanese and Chinese

By that rationale, Australia would be justified in invading New Zealand.

What if Tasmania decided they wanted to be a separate country?

If it did, I can tell you that the Australian government would send troops to kill everyone. And, Taiwan has been its own country since 1949. Now 50 years later they have to rejoin China at gunpoint? What about them deciding for themselves. See the Left goes on about 'freedom' - they don't care about it. They just hate the US and go against whatever it does. And the fact that the US likes the idea of a free Taiwan, means its bad.

And references to things 200 years ago - does nothing to in truth hide the fact that China is an evil dictatorship that wishes to conquer another territory which is Taiwan. The people there dont want to be part of China - and they should decide. Not anyone else. And especially not you and your Texan friend who decide that 'racial purity' exists as between the mainland Chinese and the Taiwanese and therefore they must be unified.

 

[Anoma|ous]

War is unwinnable and irrational this day and age. Whether an enemy is weak or able all these should be feared and studied. Nobody expected Vietnam to turn what it did. Nationalism alone won't win wars but it sure will cost lives for both sides, that will make you think.

 

[Pogrom]

By that rationale, Australia would be justified in invading New Zealand.

Are you deliberately misunderstanding?

I never said China should invade Taiwan because their lives are similar. I simply said that one day in the future the reunification will probably take place regardless in a diplomatic fashion, due to the increase in social, economic and cultural ties between the two.

Moreover, New Zealand was never part of Australia. But Taiwan is still a part of China according to International Law. I'll bold it this time: Taiwan has never declared independance from the mainland.

And ask again - how would you feel if France/Spain <insert country here> saved the Confederate States during the US Civil War? You'd be pretty ticked off, and want them to stick their nose in another country's business, right?

That's how the Chinese feel about Taiwan.

If it did, I can tell you that the Australian government would send troops to kill everyone. And, Taiwan has been its own country since 1949. Now 50 years later they have to rejoin China at gunpoint? What about them deciding for themselves. See the Left goes on about 'freedom' - they don't care about it. They just hate the US and go against whatever it does. And the fact that the US likes the idea of a free Taiwan, means its bad.

And references to things 200 years ago - does nothing to in truth hide the fact that China is an evil dictatorship that wishes to conquer another territory which is Taiwan. The people there dont want to be part of China - and they should decide. Not anyone else. And especially not you and your Texan friend who decide that 'racial purity' exists as between the mainland Chinese and the Taiwanese and therefore they must be unified.

Your failure to grasp the essence of my argument leaves me wordless.

Moreover you have a strange idea of 'evil' and 'dictatorship'. Take it from me, my lecturers, professors, mainland Chinese, Australian born Chinese, Chinese who've emigrated to Australia and other nationalities who've been to China for study/business/travel:

China is not an evil dictatorship.

 

[Calanen]

Moreover, New Zealand was never part of Australia. But Taiwan is still a part of China according to International Law. I'll bold it this time: Taiwan has never declared independance from the mainland.

There is a provision in the Australian constitution for New Zealand to join Australia. Does not mean it should or worse that it should be threatend with force to make it do so.

So what? Taiwan is independant. Has been for 50 years. What happened was all of China was under ROC control. Then the Communists took over mainland China and the ROC withdrew to Taiwan. The KMT controlled Taiwan. The Communists controlled the mainland. And both places have moved on. Equally, for many years the ROC said it controlled the mainland and was China. This is only slightly more ridiculous than saying that the mainland controls Taiwan - it does not.

And who would say 'Yay independence!' when missiles are pointed at them to be launched if they do. The only thing that stops Taiwan from being 'officially' independent is the threat of overwhelming force. As for international law, pretty clearly in most instances the UN allows elections to determine whether or not a people want to remain with a country. So bring in the UN. Yeah right.

What international law are you talking about? Do you know what you are talking about?

Your failure to grasp the essence of my argument leaves me wordless.

Maybe that says something about your arguments.

Moreover you have a strange idea of 'evil' and 'dictatorship'. Take it from me, my lecturers, professors, mainland Chinese, Australian born Chinese, Chinese who've emigrated to Australia and other nationalities who've been to China for study/business/travel: China is not an evil dictatorship.

It's a 'nice' dictatorship?

There is some soft science - I've asked around my buddies and they say its not evil, so hell of course it is not. Did you read the Amnesty International Report for China? Sounds pretty evil to me.
And worse than just about anywhere else, including the Great Satan United States.

Here it is again just if you missed it:

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/chn-summary-eng

But given you may not click on the link - here are some edited highlights:

Freedom of Religion:

Tens of thousands of Falun Gong practitioners continued to be detained, many at risk of torture and ill-treatment if they refused to renounce their beliefs.

Members of unofficial Christian groups were also arrested and some received long prison sentences. Some reported being tortured or ill-treated in police custody.

Freedom of Political Speech:

In December, death sentences were passed against ethnic Tibetans for alleged political offences for the first time in many years. More than 180 people, mainly Buddhist monks and nuns, continued to be imprisoned in violation of their fundamental human rights, and arbitrary arrests and unfair trials continued. Reports were received of torture and ill-treatment of detainees, and many prisoners suffered health problems because of harsh prison conditions.

Some Forcible Re-Education:

Some 310,000 people were administratively detained without charge or trial in “re-education through labour” camps in early 2001, the last official figure available. The figure was thought to be substantially higher in 2002 as a result of the government’s crack-down on the Falun Gong and the “strike hard” campaign against crime.

Enforcement of the Rule of Law:

People accused of political and criminal offences continued to be denied due process. Political trials fell far short of international fair trial standards, with verdicts and sentences decided by the authorities before trial and appeal hearings usually a formality.

So exactly when do would think a country is evil? How many people would it have to execute without due process, imprison for political beliefts, threaten with the use of force and send them to concentration camps before you would say 'that's evil'

By anyone except for those with a bag over their heads - China is a ruthless and evil dicatorship that kills and imprisons anyone who opposes what the Central Government says. And if that is not evil, then I am sorry, I am at a loss to decide what would be under your definition. Probably just 'whatever the USA does'.

 

[kirovman]

This just in:

The Vatican might be ready to cut ties with Taiwan in order to establish diplomatic relations with China


The Vatican looks keen enough to establish relations with the "Evil Dictatorship"

Taiwan, when it was known as the Republic of China believed it could take back mainland China, they didn't seek independence, because in the Communist revolution many families were split, some fled to Taiwan with the KMT (who incidently took a lot of China's wealth such as gold).

I want to ask also, why do so many countries recognise the "Evil Dictatorship" which you aptly label it, while ignoring the beacon of hope and democracy. Why deal with the mother of all evils government when we can deal with a democratic government?
Screwed up world I tell you that.

On one hand it's "Democracy and freedom"
on the other hand it's dealings with the devil.

If we believed we were morally right, we would value democratic values above economic values, we would deal with Taiwan, not China.

Truth is, we are more concerned with economy than political rights. Which is same as the CCP in China.

If they are truely evil like you suggest, why don't we bring them down to earth rather than fuel their growth. Bring some serious conditions along which they must adhere to before we trade with them.

It's hypocritical how we treat the situation now, with our double standards.

Also about so called brain washing in High schools (I know for a fact my friends aren't brainwashed)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4411771.stm

Looks like whitewashing history is a Far Eastern thing to do, rather than an exclusively Communist Chinese thing.

I don't think China is a war nation either. It gets a lot of bad press, but there is a balance of good things coming from it.

It's just when people hear the word communist they get the pitchforks out and the fires burning.

 

[Pogrom]

There is some soft science - I've asked around my buddies and they say its not evil, so hell of course it is not. Did you read the Amnesty International Report for China? Sounds pretty evil to me.
And worse than just about anywhere else, including the Great Satan United States.

Here it is again just if you missed it:

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/chn-summary-eng

Hmmm, locking people up without due process. At risk of torture and ill-treatment. Where have I heard that before?

Ah yes - Abu Grahib, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay. Some sort of nerve, a country like that criticising China over Human Rights abuses.

Here are some other quotes from the link you so thoughtfully provided:

the government issued a directive banning the use of child labour from 1 December 2002.

The crack-down on the Falun Gong spiritual movement, which was banned as a “heretical organization” in July 1999, intensified, particularly after Falun Gong practitioners intercepted cable and satellite television to broadcast pro-Falun Gong messages.

What, this group breaks Chinese law and you expect the Chinese Government to applaud them?

Regulations introduced in January 2001 provide for the death penalty for those who cause “especially serious harm” by providing “state secrets” to overseas organizations and individuals

No different to the west.

China is actively pursuing a culture of reform and modernisation. This includes political and social modernisation, but it isn't happening overnight.

Any other country who has tried to rush the process has simply fallen over. Just look at Russia or any number of bankrupt African democracies.

 

[kirovman]

Hmmm, locking people up without due process. At risk of torture and ill-treatment. Where have I heard that before?

Ah yes - Abu Grahib, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay. Some sort of nerve, a country like that criticising China over Human Rights abuses.

Here are some other quotes from the link you so thoughtfully provided:


What, this group breaks Chinese law and you expect the Chinese Government to applaud them?

No different to the west.

China is actively pursuing a culture of reform and modernisation. This includes political and social modernisation, but it isn't happening overnight.

Any other country who has tried to rush the process has simply fallen over. Just look at Russia or any number of bankrupt African democracies.

You pretty much said what I'm thinking. Nobody seems to notice the fact they are modernising, and it's not going to be an overnight change. They are giving more and more rights to the individual, for example you are allowed to own your home now.

Things need slow change and process, an example of change overnight is Russia, they didn't have enough time to set up/test out the laws, 6 tycoons got control over all the economy, and now it's pretty much a mess.

 

[Calanen]

the government issued a directive banning the use of child labour from 1 December 2002.

So what? There should never have been child labor to start with. And it will continue on for everyone who bribes their local party member.

Regulations introduced in January 2001 provide for the death penalty for those who cause “especially serious harm” by providing “state secrets” to overseas organizations and individuals

you missed out the best bit 'over the internet....'

And lets look at a case study of how this law is implemented:

Chen Shaowen, a writer in Hunan province, was reportedly detained on 6 August after posting “up to 40 reactionary articles and essays” on the Internet. According to an official report, he was charged with “subverting state power”. He had reportedly written many articles for overseas Chinese-language websites calling for independent labour and farmers’ unions and raising issues such as China’s social inequalities and flawed legal system.

No different to the west.

Man lets like put this guy away - he posts essays by God! If it was China you were criticising all the time Pogrom and not the USA, and you lived in China - you would be at serious risk of being arrested and executed. Is that fair enough to you? Would it be fair enough if the USA implemented such a policy for anyone who disagreed with its government?

The difference in the West is that people who are charged with treason (hardly anyone ever is) are not people who post a blog on a website criticising the government. And even then, they get something resembling a trial.

Yeah no differrent from the West. We lock up and execute people who write essays as well all the time....in Pogrom's dreamland.

Hmmm, locking people up without due process. At risk of torture and ill-treatment. Where have I heard that before?

Ah yes - Abu Grahib, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay. Some sort of nerve, a country like that criticising China over Human Rights abuses.

There is a huge difference and you know it. The people detained by China are its own citizens and most of them detained only for criticising their government. They were not detained in a war. China would not detain anyone in a military conflict, they would just massacre the prisoners if they could get not useful information out of them.

And the actions of MPs at Abu Graib are not reflective of the entire US judicial system, not even a significant proportion of it. Chinese Red Guards that summarily execute people would be promoted as heroes of the people - while these MPs are going away for a very long time.

China could tomorrow stop all this crap and hardline systematic torture and misery of any1 who dares to criticise it. That does not need to be done gradually. It needs to be done immediately. And people like you just give them a pass to keep doing it.

 

[Pogrom]

So what? There should never have been child labor to start with. And it will continue on for everyone who bribes their local party member.

There should have never been child labour in the US and Britain, and yet there was...

And in case it missed you the first time, China is actively pursuing a culture of reform and modernisation. This includes political and social modernisation, but it isn't happening overnight. This means China are pursuing corruption problems. They are simply not perfect.

Unlike the magical paradise you call the US, where everyone is happy and nothing ever unjust happens, just the way America was created in the first place. :upstare:

you missed out the best bit 'over the internet....'

And lets look at a case study of how this law is implemented:

Man lets like put this guy away - he posts essays by God! If it was China you were criticising all the time Pogrom and not the USA, and you lived in China - you would be at serious risk of being arrested and executed. Is that fair enough to you? Would it be fair enough if the USA implemented such a policy for anyone who disagreed with its government?

The difference in the West is that people who are charged with treason (hardly anyone ever is) are not people who post a blog on a website criticising the government. And even then, they get something resembling a trial.

Yeah no differrent from the West. We lock up and execute people who write essays as well all the time....in Pogrom's dreamland.

God told him to ask for trade unions?

Try to look at it from this perspective: You are in control of a country with 1.3 billion mouths to feed. You are looked upon unfavourably by most of the world. You have in fact been barred from trade for most of the time you have been in power. Your country has only 15% arable land.

You see other countries increasing social freedoms and embracing Western style democracy - and falling into debt. You see many countries following the IMF and World Bank's models for statehood. You see many of them fail and millions fall into poverty.

You resolve to make a gradual transition, building up the economy, until there is a sizable middle class that will be able to stabilise a democracy - just like how democracy happened in the west.

But you have people trying to push for change too early. Well, maybe they are not way too early, but simply not in your schedule. So you do imprison them unjustly (hey, I never said they were saints). But political prisoners are being released all the time (just read the amnesty link you submitted) and there will be a time when this doesn't happen any more.

If you enjoy being a rich superpower, and having poor foreign countries depend upon you for aid, while millions (in this hypothetical case, hundreds of millions) starve, then disregard everything I just wrote.

Like kirovman and I have repeatedly stated, China is moving towards a more free and open society. You may disbelive us, but we have actually been there. And I guarantee I have read more on the subject than you (Already having one degree in China Studies under my belt).

There is a huge difference and you know it. The people detained by China are its own citizens and most of them detained only for criticising their government. They were not detained in a war. China would not detain anyone in a military conflict, they would just massacre the prisoners if they could get not useful information out of them.

And the actions of MPs at Abu Graib are not reflective of the entire US judicial system, not even a significant proportion of it. Chinese Red Guards that summarily execute people would be promoted as heroes of the people - while these MPs are going away for a very long time.

China could tomorrow stop all this crap and hardline systematic torture and misery of any1 who dares to criticise it. That does not need to be done gradually. It needs to be done immediately. And people like you just give them a pass to keep doing it.

The problems at Abu Grahib, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay (yes, it happened at these places too) are not isolated. They appear to be endemic of the system.

What did you expect to happen when the highest levels of the US government coined the term 'enemy combatant'? When they redefined 'torture'? When they determined that the Geneva Convention is not applicable to guarantee the wellbeing of prisoners the US takes?

That prisoners would be treated better than in WWII? I don't think so. They were prepaed for this sort of thing to happen from day one.

And as for not doing it to your own citizens:

Link #1

Link #2

And what about the art of rendering? That is something I believe is worse than anything the Chinese do:

Linky

And there are hundreds of such cases - one even involving a Canadian prisoner.

 

[Calanen]

Like kirovman and I have repeatedly stated, China is moving towards a more free and open society. You may disbelive us, but we have actually been there. And I guarantee I have read more on the subject than you (Already having one degree in China Studies under my belt).

Who says I haven't actually been there? You because I don't share your opinion.

I don't feel the need to say, here are my qualifications, therefore only I can have an opinion.

You don't know what I have read or not read, or what qualifications I have. So don't kid yourself. I'm not going to get into a tit for tat who has the right to an opinion with you. But I think I do have the right to an opinion. Even if I don't have a degree in 'China Studies'.

 

[Bodacious]

I just thought i would throw this in for your consideration:

China leads the world in executions

 

[kirovman]

It's true, and the death penalty is indeed barbaric, I have little respect for governments that practice it.

I think things will get better when the newer generations get into power.

Things are a far sight better than the days of Chairman Mao and the cultural revolution, where much of the country was in starvation.

They do need to improve rights, yes, but they have made some progress in doing so.

The communist party has done a good job in a lot of areas, such as economic growth, lifting a proportion of people out of poverty, bringing the country out of starvation, and making them a major player in the world. Yes, they have their faults and they will need to make up for them. Other nations too.

I think they will figure things out for themselves in a couple of generations, without having "Western Democracy" thrust upon them, which for their frame of mind would probably not work out anyway. They'll probably develop into their own style, Chinese democracy, with an emerging middle class that realisation will become more and more inevitable. The ruling power will have to yield to their powerful middle class.
If you shake things up now, it will do a lot of damage. Decapitating the communist party will just create war, more damage than good.
I believe the Chinese people have the ability to get their freedom and democracy peacefully.

Anyway, time will tell.

 

[No Limit]

You should too, you're part of the greatest country on earth.

You don't have to tell me that. I moved here from Poland, I think I have a lot more say in this matter than you do. Have you ever been outside this country?

Well if we ****ed up, I guess then by default we wouldnt be able to win every situation -- though I'm wondering how you exactly came to the conclusion that that is what I think.

Gee, how did I come to that conclusion... Let's see, maybe you saying we have 30,000 nukes they can't **** with had something to do with it.

 

[The Monkey]

Why dont you get off your ass and become a superpower yourself? Nobody is stopping you. If they can bludgeon their way with their 400 million strong working class into being a superpower, good for them. Their cheaply made wares are no match for American patriotism and innovation. And our 30 thousand nuclear warheads.

Are you a pariot, gh0st? Do you really believe that just because your peole have faith in their country will mean that they can overpower an army many time greater that the US'?

 

[Pogrom]

Who says I haven't actually been there? You because I don't share your opinion.

I don't feel the need to say, here are my qualifications, therefore only I can have an opinion.

You don't know what I have read or not read, or what qualifications I have. So don't kid yourself. I'm not going to get into a tit for tat who has the right to an opinion with you. But I think I do have the right to an opinion. Even if I don't have a degree in 'China Studies'.

Fair enough, but I was just stating why I believe what I do.

You believe the Chinese government is an evil dictatorship. While I question the validity of your opinion, that dosn't mean you can't have it.

However, your criteria for evil dictatorship (Human Rights abuses) does seem to encompass most of the world's nations. But how many of them are actually improving?

So much so that you can see it each time you visit?

You only seem to believe change can happen through war or military intervention.

While that worked for Germany and Japan, it failed in the 10+ other countries the US has attempted nation building with.

China is not perfect. Neither is it evil. It is simply another developing country with limited socio-political freedoms.

I don't support the death penalty either, and it is something I abhor about China. But for all the reasons kirovman stated, I think China will proceed through these problems and adopt a style of democracy that suits their unique situation and culture.

 

[kirovman]

Also, Strong China 'no threat to Asia'

Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao has said Asia should not fear a stronger China.

We still have a very, very long way to go before China is modernised

They acknowledge they have a long road of progress to move along.

"China will never seek hegemony," said Mr Wen, who is on his first South Asian tour since taking office last year.

"Some people are worried that a stronger and more developed China would pose a threat to other countries," Mr Wen told Wednesday's meeting.
"Such worry is completely misplaced... even if we become stronger and more developed, we will not stand in the way of others, still less become a threat to others."

Many of you say stop the human rights abuses now, they have set up laws to do with human rights, but until they become fully enforced will be some time yet.
Even if the Premier said "Stop the abuses tomorrow" it is going to be a while before everyone listens to him.

They are tackling one issue at a time. Now they are tackling corruption in the communist party (like fat provincial governors who enjoy life at the expense of their subordinates). After they have dealt with corruption, they will be able to reform their legal system, then they will be able to stop abuses.
The human rights issue will come to their attention soon, it's just not on the top of their list.
Reform, modernisation and building a society is not instantaneous as some people seem to think.
They are not going to become America Junior. They want to develop their own way, but not leaping on a bandwagon shouting "Yeehhaaww, gonna get me some of that democracy!"
They want to proceed slowly so their country doesn't get ****ed up ever again. Is that so hard to believe?

While you may not believe the words of the Chinese Premier, they seem to be setting up a lot of regional ties, mostly in trade.

China has been a mercantile nation for thousands of years, and a communist nation for less than 50.
It becomes clear which characteristic is the strongest.

I doubt when they become modernised they are going to turn around and say "Haha, fooled you, now all your earth belongs to us!"

However, your criteria for evil dictatorship (Human Rights abuses) does seem to encompass most of the world's nations. But how many of them are actually improving?

So much so that you can see it each time you visit?

I agree. A long road ahead, as acknowledged by the Chinese.

But it is amazing to see it developing so fast each time you go back.

 

[Calanen]

"Some people are worried that a stronger and more developed China would pose a threat to other countries," Mr Wen told Wednesday's meeting.
"Such worry is completely misplaced... even if we become stronger and more developed, we will not stand in the way of others, still less become a threat to others."

Well of course they would say that. They are not going to say - hey our plan is to kill every1 in Asia. But you don't buy a whole heap of new weapons unless you are going to use them on someone. And China does not do peacekeeping or mercy missions - it couldn't give a stuff.

 

[Pogrom]

Well of course they would say that. They are not going to say - hey our plan is to kill every1 in Asia. But you don't buy a whole heap of new weapons unless you are going to use them on someone. And China does not do peacekeeping or mercy missions - it couldn't give a stuff.

Well, the US doesn't keep researching and developing new weapons just so they can sit there. They are going to use them on someone.


Oh, and btw - China does contribute peacekeepers

 

[kirovman]

So their plan is to kill everyone in Asia? Shit, come on we need to stop them as soon as possible! How did you come by this intelligence? Tell the CIA as soon as possible.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3412317.stm

And I thought military was commonly used as a means of defence.

Getting a military must be a signs of wanting war?

That must make the USA the biggest war monger by your logic.

Countries like Iceland are the only ones who don't want to use their weapons on someone.

 

[Calanen]

Oh, and btw - China does contribute peacekeepers

Great mission of mercy - the new government of Liberia guaranteed to de-recognise Taiwan so China sent in some troops. True benevolence.

 

[Pogrom]

Great mission of mercy - the new government of Liberia guaranteed to de-recognise Taiwan so China sent in some troops. True benevolence.

Here is another excerpt from that article:

The government of former president Charles Taylor had close financial ties with Taiwan, but he has been forced into exile by rebel groups and the threat of prosecution by an international war crimes tribunal.

Yeah, Taiwan chooses their friends really well.

China is merely choosing to do business with the government that hasn't been charged with war crimes.

That, I believe, renders your point invalid.

 

[kirovman]

The same news story again, but from China daily:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-04/07/content_431922.htm

"It is with sincerity and firmness that China adheres to the path of peaceful development," Wen said. "The Chinese people will always be a trustworthy and reliable partner for the rest of Asia."

The premier's remarks were made in part to respond to the "China threat" concept concocted by some foreign politicians and analysts in recent months, following the country's emerging economic and political influence in the world arena.

For one thing, China's per capita GDP, slightly over US$1,000, is ranked well below 100th place in the world's tally, meaning the country is still a developing country with a long way to go before it is modernized, Wen explained.

"The increasing integration of the Chinese economy with other economies of the region is a source of strength and stability for Asia," Aziz told the ACD meeting.

Talking about Asia at large, both Wen and Aziz called the regional continent of opportunities, which requires joint efforts to harness its full potential.

Integrating economy and free trade with your neighbours doesn't really seem like a prerequisite to eventually entering into war with them, does it?
Also Pakistan, co-operating with China, is also a US ally.



An article about how the USA congress views China

The poll by Zogby International showed the America public and Congressional staff united in citing human rights as their top concern about China and in voicing fears about job losses. Business leaders listed counterfeiting as their top concern.

Just to point out that a news article on a Chinese news website wouldn't have been able to report foreign concerns about human rights in China a couple of years back.

Only 24 percent of the public saw China as an economic threat and 15 percent regarded the country as a military threat. But China was seen as an economic threat by 54 percent of Congressional staff, and a military threat by 36 percent.

So looks like they're more worried about their economy being eclipsed.