PHL Delay Editorial

[Steelwind]

Originally posted by Logic
To an extent, you're right, but he remained insistant in his 'proclamation' that Valve won't make the date, no matter how many times they reassure that everything is on track. He isn't specifically "defying" anyone in this article, but that certainly is the implication if you look at everything he's said on the issue. To me, he seems like a child, defending what he's said until the bitter end, who simply won't back down and acknowlege that people who have much more likelyhood of knowing the truth about the issue are saying the opposite to him. His "journalism" is revolving more around defending his honor (he has to stick by what he's said now that he's made such a deal about it) than letting the truth be known. If Valve weren't insisting that everything is on track, I wouldn't consider Fragmaster to be being arrogant, but clearly by maintaining that Valve won't make the date, when they are stating that they will, he's saying (or at the very least, strongly implying) that Valve are wrong.

It just seems to me that people are reading too much into his editorial. He's defending his stance on the subject, so be it. He's not slandering Valve and telling the world that they're evil, disrespectful developers. Everyone here continues to argue their side of the coin as well. No different than he's doing.

Steelwind: Why exactly do you doubt Valve? What are the reasons behind your belief that they won't release on time?

Good question, thanks for asking. First and foremost I just think there's too much left 'hanging in the air' that needs to be grounded before HL2 will be shipped. I do think that the release of Steam is a step in the right direction, but by no means secures the release date for HL2. We've seen no advertising, as of late, that shows HL2 coming at the end of the month. We're 20 days from the estimated store shelf date, and there aren't any ads running in major print, web, TV, or radio agencies. You could argue that Valve doesn't need to advertise, but the majority of the market is not made up of us die hard fans who are grovelling, begging for as much news on HL2 as we can get. The target consumer that Valve needs to approach to ensure high quantity sells will require advertising in one form or another to drive them to a purchase. Then we have the fact that Valve has refused to say anything about multiplayer. From a buisness standpoint you don't release a game without informing the consumer of the features and options contained within the game. A consumer will want to know what their money is going towards. Again, the die hard fans who post daily on forums are not the majority of the target audience. Then you've got that fact that Valve has constantly missed their target release dates time and time again. I'm not saying Valve is the only one subject to such circumstance, because by all means the majority of developers miss their targeted release date. It's just the way the industry works. I also have some concern about the latest aquisition of VU. Generally there is some re-organization and legalities that need to be attended to when such a purchase is made. This situation has the potential to tie up the distribution of HL2.

A lot of people have been questioning the credibility of Fragmaster and his opinions, but the same could be said for all the quotes taken from Valve's employees. With the history the company has with release dates, cancelled projects, and failed visions one could easily argue the source of their creditbility. We're talking about people, not gods.

 

[Steelwind]

Originally posted by Mountain Man
Not to mention he flat out called Valve's Doug Lombardi a liar.

Taken from the PHL editorial
I'll stop short of accusing him of lying, but I think he's been a wee bit misleading.

That's far from flat out calling Doug Lombardi a liar. Again, I think people are reading too much into his article.

 

[Feath]

Originally posted by Steelwind
That's far from flat out calling Doug Lombardi a liar. Again, I think people are reading too much into his article.

He says that what Doug Lombardi said at ECTS was untrue and Doug knew that it was untrue.

That's saying "He's a liar".

 

[Steelwind]

Originally posted by Feath
He says that what Doug Lombardi said at ECTS was untrue and Doug knew that it was untrue.

That's saying "He's a liar".

Show me. Where did he say that what Doug said at ECTS was untrue? Here let me help you, here's the entire paragraph on Doug quoted.

Since the Vivendi delay announcement, all Gabe Newell has said regarding the release date is, "first time I've heard of it" and later, "no comment." Those are not denials. Doug Lombardi is a different story, as there's no doubt he told people at ECTS just a few weeks ago that the game was coming out September 30th worldwide. Doug Lombardi is Valve's Marketing Director, and it's his job is to get people excited about Half-Life 2. I'll stop short of accusing him of lying, but I think he's been a wee bit misleading.

 

[Logic]

Originally posted by Steelwind
First and foremost I just think there's too much left 'hanging in the air' that needs to be grounded before HL2 will be shipped. I do think that the release of Steam is a step in the right direction, but by no means secures the release date for HL2. We've seen no advertising, as of late, that shows HL2 coming at the end of the month. We're 20 days from the estimated store shelf date, and there aren't any ads running in major print, web, TV, or radio agencies. You could argue that Valve doesn't need to advertise, but the majority of the market is not made up of us die hard fans who are grovelling, begging for as much news on HL2 as we can get. The target consumer that Valve needs to approach to ensure high quantity sells will require advertising in one form or another to drive them to a purchase. Then we have the fact that Valve has refused to say anything about multiplayer. From a buisness standpoint you don't release a game without informing the consumer of the features and options contained within the game. A consumer will want to know what their money is going towards. Again, the die hard fans who post daily on forums are not the majority of the target audience. Then you've got that fact that Valve has constantly missed their target release dates time and time again. I'm not saying Valve is the only one subject to such circumstance, because by all means the majority of developers miss their targeted release date. It's just the way the industry works. I also have some concern about the latest aquisition of VU. Generally there is some re-organization and legalities that need to be attended to when such a purchase is made. This situation has the potential to tie up the distribution of HL2.

All valid arguments, but clearly Valve aren't doing everything traditionally when it comes to marketing here. One of the reasons I remain fairly optimistic about the release date is that Valve have been working on the game for five years. Surely, that's plenty of time to create and perfect the game. With that in mind, would Valve really set themselves a release date so soon after the announcement if they weren't confident that they were just about done? Most developers who miss their release dates set them many months, sometimes years, in advance, when they are in the early stages of development. In those cases, anything could happen, and they are only in the position to make very rough guesses. In Valve's situation, however, by setting a release date so soon, they are basically implying that the game is finnished (or very nearly), and that they are just polishing it up, which is most likely the case. In this sort of situation, gaguing an accurate time frame shouldn't be a difficult thing to do. Surely, after five years of solid development, they wouldn't suddenly spring out from nowhere and set themself a date, just around the corner, that they can't easily achieve.

Edit: Additionally, I don't think the "too much left 'hanging in the air' " argument really stands. The lack of information released isn't because Valve haven't finalised anything, but rather because they are being extremely, well, tactical in terms of what information they choose to release. Gabe has stated (if I remember correctly) that no multiplayer information would be released until after the game ships. To me, that clearly indicates the secretive nature of Valve's marketing - just because there are a lot of things WE don't know yet, doesn't mean that those things haven't long been finnished.

 

[Steelwind]

Originally posted by Logic
All valid arguments, but clearly Valve aren't doing everything traditionally when it comes to marketing here. One of the reasons I remain fairly optimistic about the release date is that Valve have been working on the game for five years. Surely, that's plenty of time to create and perfect the game. With that in mind, would Valve really set themselves a release date so soon after the announcement if they weren't confident that they were just about done? Most developers who miss their release dates set them many months, sometimes years, in advance, when they are in the early stages of development. In those cases, anything could happen, and they are only in the position to make very rough guesses. In Valve's situation, however, by setting a release date so soon, they are basically implying that the game is finnished (or very nearly), and that they are just polishing it up, which is most likely the case. In this sort of situation, gaguing an accurate time frame shouldn't be a difficult thing to do. Surely, after five years of solid development, they wouldn't suddenly spring out from nowhere and set themself a date, just around the corner, that they can't easily achieve.

Good point. But the majority of those 5 years was dedicated to creating the engine and polishing it's belimishes. I think they said they spent at least 2 years, maybe more on the engine itself. Sure they may be able to set a realistic date they could achieve, but there's so many variables involved with finalizing a game that at any time something could come up which would postpone the release. They've said they're playtesting, but playtesting can take months. I've been in dozens of beta tests, and know first hand that something almost always comes up that hinders development. It's still a very likely a possibility that in the midst of Valve's playtesting, they hit a snag that could possibly postpone the release. There's not a single developer in the world that has the foresight to capture all possible trouble spots before they become a hinderance.

Edit: Additionally, I don't think the "too much left 'hanging in the air' " argument really stands. The lack of information released isn't because Valve haven't finalised anything, but rather because they are being extremely, well, tactical in terms of what information they choose to release. Gabe has stated (if I remember correctly) that no multiplayer information would be released until after the game ships. To me, that clearly indicates the secretive nature of Valve's marketing - just because there are a lot of things WE don't know yet, doesn't mean that those things haven't long been finnished.

I should have worded that better. By 'too much left hanging in the air' I was referring to what I listed below it. It's obvious they've been 'tactical' in terms of information they want to release, but from a buisness standpoint it doesn't makes sense to me that a major developer would release a game to consumers without telling them anything about a major component of the game. I suppose they could wait until after the release, but that just doesn't make a lot of sense. Once the games out, people will know by word of mouth anyway.

I agree too that just because we don't know, doesn't mean it's not finished. But at the same time, because we don't know, it doesn't mean it is either.

 

[Logic]

There's not a single developer in the world that has the foresight to capture all possible trouble spots before they become a hinderance.

Of course not, which is why I acknowlege the possibility of a delay. Yes, playtesting can take a long time, but I don't believe Valve would have set their date without having taken that into consideration. Most likely, they have been playtesting everything thoroughly for quite some time now, and are still doing so in order to track down any possible bugs that may have appeared during recent development. I still believe that if any company has a good chance of getting their release date right, it's Valve in this situation. Since it's been completely up to them, obviously without pressure from publishers to get the game out the door ASAP (if there was, they wouldn't have taken five years over it), they have complete control over their development time, marketing schemes, and announcements. If there's any uncertainty surrounding HL2, I vote that Valve is keeping it that way intentionally.

 

[Logic]

Originally posted by Steelwind
I agree too that just because we don't know, doesn't mean it's not finished. But at the same time, because we don't know, it doesn't mean it is either.

I guess we both agree that it could go either way, then. Interesting to see another point of view . Well, it's 5:30 am and I haven't slept yet, and I've still got more work to do so it doesn't look like I'll get to. I'd better get back to it... ugh....

 

[Guest]

"It just seems to me that people are reading too much into his editorial. He's defending his stance on the subject, so be it. He's not slandering Valve and telling the world that they're evil, disrespectful developers. Everyone here continues to argue their side of the coin as well. No different than he's doing."
-Steelwind



Hmmm.... saying that Doug Lombardi is "misleading"..... That is slander idiot. If nothing else, that is defamation of chararcter. The guy has no idea what he is talking about.

 

[Steelwind]

Slander:
1. Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.

Nothing Fragmaster said could be considered injurious to Doug's reputation, nor is it a malicious statement about him. He simply said, "I think he's been a wee bit misleading."

 

[Guest]

To Steelwind:

ARE YOU DUMB? If you say that is someone is misleading, you are saying that they are NOT TRUTHFUL. That is slander because it soils their name, so you just proved my point retard!

 

[spitcodfry]

I think someone should close this thread...its been talked about and talked about, and frankly, it serves no purpose. Fragmaster isn't going to come onto these boards and give his two cents, neither is he going to admit fault. It is an editorial, people. Those are meant to express opinions, as he clearly states before he gets into the crux of things. He can say whatever he wants. I for one, think he's an idiot. That doesn't change the fact that he's a part of PHL and is there to stay. So people, please let this thread die down. It just doesn't matter!

 

[Guest]

Fragmaster's stupidity is unforgivable.

 

[CommieX]

No threads on this forum really serve much of a purpose. We are all talking about a game that isn't out yet, and we know very little info...what else are we supposed to talk about?

 

[spitcodfry]

Originally posted by CommieX
No threads on this forum really serve much of a purpose. We are all talking about a game that isn't out yet, and we know very little info...what else are we supposed to talk about?

*sigh* Why do I bother?

 

[CommieX]

Good question.

 

[Mold]

:dork:

 

[Mountain Man]

Originally posted by Steelwind
That's far from flat out calling Doug Lombardi a liar.

No, he flat out called him a liar, I don't care what little semantics game he wants to play.

 

[Steelwind]

Originally posted by Killa_TJ
To Steelwind:

ARE YOU DUMB? If you say that is someone is misleading, you are saying that they are NOT TRUTHFUL. That is slander because it soils their name, so you just proved my point retard!

I guess we have a difference of opinion on whether the statement was slanderous. Go figure. I don't believe it is, because Fragmaster did not say "Doug Lombardi is misleading the public." He simply said he thought he has 'been a wee bit misleading.' Anyway, I have no need to continue responding to someone who can't convey an arguement beyond the use of name calling, abusive comments, or 'yelling' on a message board.

Simply agree to disagree.

 

[Guest]

You lose. lol

 

[Mountain Man]

Originally posted by Killa_TJ
If you say that is someone is misleading, you are saying that they are NOT TRUTHFUL. That is slander because it soils their name...

You are correct.

 

[Deadline]

Originally posted by Killa_TJ
You lose. lol

LOL Agreed

But Seriously This argument is getting old. I just want to see what happens in the comeing weeks, and if HL2 does slip, We still got halo, homeworld 2, and many more games to tide us over till it does.

Damn I cant believe I just admitted it MAY slip... my God...

 

[Guest]

I guess my point is that people like Steelwind should get off Fragmaster's balls and grow their own and see that the guy is dumb. I'm not trying to degrade anyone or make anyone feel bad (except for Fragmaster), but I am just trying to get people to see that they shouldn't believe opinions, especially one's that have holes in them. I am just gonna chill and wait till the 30th.

 

[Feath]

I've just had a funny mental image of Fragmaster as a lawyer.

"I know that I don't have any proof or evidence that Mr Jenkins commited murder. But you have no proof that he didn't, just an allabi by an old friend of his. Well, his old friend would probably say that anyway. Now, I'm going to not call him a liar but he is being misleading to the police."

And so on.

 

[Deadline]

Originally posted by Feath
I've just had a funny mental image of Fragmaster as a lawyer.

"I know that I don't have any proof or evidence that Mr Jenkins commited murder. But you have no proof that he didn't, just an allabi by an old friend of his. Well, his old friend would probably say that anyway. Now, I'm going to not call him a liar but he is being misleading to the police."

And so on.

Wow thats so perfect.

 

[Steelwind]

Originally posted by Killa_TJ
I guess my point is that people like Steelwind should get off Fragmaster's balls and grow their own and see that the guy is dumb. I'm not trying to degrade anyone or make anyone feel bad (except for Fragmaster), but I am just trying to get people to see that they shouldn't believe opinions, especially one's that have holes in them. I am just gonna chill and wait till the 30th.

Get off your high horse and wake-up. Your reading comprehension must be that of a 2 year old. I'm not believing anyone's opinions, I make my own. Why don't you tell everyone who's arguing for the sake of argument to stop following in the footsteps of everyone else, taking part in the activities of a conformist flock of sheep. They guy is not dumb because he has his own opinion on the subject. By logic that makes you dumb as well. If the shoe fits...

 

[Logic]

Steelwind: "a wee bit misleading".... surely you can see why people call that slander. People often add things like "just a tad" or "a wee bit" to their phrases to dull down what they are saying, but the meaning doesn't change. He's calling him "misleading". It doesn't matter what degree of misleading (it could be a wee bit, or extremely, that's irrelevant), the fact of the matter is, he's saying that he's being misleading, which very clearly implies dishonesty. He's calling him a liar, whether he chooses to admit it or not.

Fragmaster is not dumb because he has his own oppinion. He is being a jerk because he's so sure of the validity of his argument that he's willing to say that certain people are being "a wee bit misleading", just because it supports his argument. He's basically saying "Because I'm right, Valve must be wrong."

 

[Guest]

Thanks Logic. I don't know how many times I have tried to get this through Steelwinds thick head. It doesn't matter if he put a degree on what he said he still said it regardless. I could say that Michael Jackson is a little bit of a child molester. But in the end, I have just called him a child molester. I don't know what kind of idiot could deny that.

 

[koopa]

Originally posted by Logic
"a wee bit misleading".... surely you can see why people call that slander. People often add things like "just a tad" or "a wee bit" to their phrases to dull down what they are saying, but the meaning doesn't change. He's calling him "misleading". It doesn't matter what degree of misleading (it could be a wee bit, or extremely, that's irrelevant), the fact of the matter is, he's saying that he's being misleading, which very clearly implies dishonesty. He's calling him a liar, whether he chooses to admit it or not.

The 'wee bit' is not irrelevant. There is a huge difference between saying 'XXX is a DIRTY LIAR' and 'XXX is perhaps being a little misleading'. Just ask any politician.

And no, he's not calling him a liar. He's accusing him of being *misleading* (which, as he says, is pretty much the job of a marketing manager anyway). He's not distorting the truth so much as letting an incorrect piece of information spread.

 

[Mountain Man]

O.K., everybody at home play along (to make this really effective, pretend I'm talking about you):

"I'm not saying he's an idiot, just a wee bit moronic."

There, now wasn't that a wonderful compliment? Don't you feel good about yourself knowing that I think you're only a wee bit moronic? But fact is, I still called you a moron.

Fagmaster (not a typo) said that Mr. Lombardi is being misleading. In other words, he claimed that Mr. Lombardi is intentionally using his words to lead people to arrive at a wrong conclussion, a conclussion that he (Mr. Lombardi) knows is wrong. Oh, but he's not actually calling him a liar, just describing in detail the actions of a liar.

So tell me, how are Fagmaster's words the least bit defensible?

 

[thehunter1320]

ok, when HL2 is released on the 30th, we all have to e-mail him this picture

 

[Feath]

Originally posted by thehunter1320
ok, when HL2 is released on the 30th, we all have to e-mail him this picture

You know, I took that picture. I should've put my name on it.