Question for Europeans

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They have a rather efficient banking system there as well...Lots of electronic movements of money ;)
 
Fishlore said:
I just read something and wanted to find out if it was true. It seems kind of impossible, but here goes.

Is it true that an average European gets 6 weeks of paid time off a year?
Is it true that an average European works for around 35 hours a week?
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Yeah, that sounds about right. We actually had a country-wide strike for about a week to get that 6th week of paid vacation.

Some more random facts about Denmark:

  • The minimum wage is close to $15 an hour
  • Tax is 40-60% depending on income and there's a 25% sales tax on everything.
  • Car tax is 180% + normal sales tax.
  • Gasoline is $5.80 a gallon.
  • As a university student you get a free education plus a $750 a month grant.
  • Unemployed get $1900 a month from the government.
 
I just got my travel card or what you call it. I choosed a school in Gothenburg for high school/collage and its 30km from where i live. The travel card cost about $925/year but we get it for free since we want to go in a school in another city :)

You can use the travel card for buses, trams, trains and ferries (to the archipelago woot woot). I like that very much :)
 
I think people who favor lots of money over free healthcare, education and such are self-centered and greedy. Society should always take the less fortunate into account.
 
The drawbacks of having a system like we have in Sweden is that you could, technically, live a good life without having to work, what with all the social contributions and all. An unemployed person might end up having more money than someone who works as a cleaner 40 hours a week.

But on the other hand the whole idea of this system is that when someone falls, there'll always be a net to catch him and help him back up again. And it does work. Some might say that there are people that've thrown away all their chances and shouldn't earn society's help, but then again a lot of people are born into poor conditions and need help to have the same chances as anybody else.

I've heard people refer to the american system as the "2/3:s system", meaning that two thirds of the population live a wealthy, secure, and good life, while the other third has to work their asses off with like three jobs just to afford the food and rent. Forget about health insurances. Of course, not having been to the US I really dont have any idea if it's anywhere remotely close to this. Perhaps anyone could give a rough idea of what it's like?


Sweden's faaaar from perfect though. I like to refer to it as the western world's only one-party state. The social democrates had ruled for over 40 years in a row up until the eighties, during the short right wing government rule. They wont the next election though and have since been in the rule. Considering how far to the bottom they've ran the swedish economy it's quite baffling that they keep getting support. Either they are extremely sharp at gaining support or the swedish people are just too dim to really grasp politics. One thing's for certain, if we want to keep our welfare intact something has to change.
 
In Finland it's all the medicare free (even if your unemployed, it's almost free!), 5-6weeks of paid vacation a year (but law states that you have to receive atleast 2 during may - september). About 40h/week.
 
Majestic XII said:
Here is what we have in Swedland:

5 weeks paid time off and about 40 hours/week.

Dont know if its good or bad though... since i dont work yet :)
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same here in Holland. I however get an extra 20 days paid time off **aahhhh the bliss****
 
Fishlore said:
Thanks for the info. I agree that more hours worked doesn't always equal more productivity, but at the same time fewer hours doesn't mean more productivity either. It's all about the worker's attitude.

I was more or less curious about the vacation time. Being from the states I get 5, count them five days off for the entire year. That includes sick days. I took my five days to drive across the US. Got sick after I got home and got docked pay for missing work. Talk about ridiculous.

I think with more paid time off, workers here would have higher morale and in turn become more efficient. I don't look at the European system as lazy, rather superior. Still though I don't think it's fair to be called a lazy American.
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I am not sure where you people work but I get three weeks paid and medical is free. Get a better job, as always attitude will get you job with better benefits.
 
RoyaleWithCheese said:
same here in Holland. I however get an extra 20 days paid time off **aahhhh the bliss****
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You lucky bastard :D oh and i love your avatar
 
h00dlum said:
Dont forget the alcohol tax that is super high..but they will lower it soon cuz of EU..
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I hear ya, we have drunk swedes over here all the time buying alchohol! :E
 
Those crazy swedes...I bet they don't even wait for the sea to freeze before they invade anymore :P
 
Nope, we just take our longshi...hrmm...cars and drive over the bridge :E

Yeah, alcohol trips to denmark are very, very popular indeed here. Cars leave empty, and come back stuffed to the brink with drinkable goodness :)


@ vetebulle: great name! :E
 
Varg|Hund said:
Yeah, alcohol trips to denmark are very, very popular indeed here. Cars leave empty, and come back stuffed to the brink with drinkable goodness :)
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You know your alcohol prices are too high when you consider Denmark cheap. :) We have the same alcohol trips, except we go to Germany!
 
Mercapto: Exactly, I wonder where the Germans go...? :E

Majestic: Legoland? Unless you're dragged there by family/wife/kids I would find you either pretty sad or uninformed! ;) Tivoli is so much more fun!
 
Cybernoid said:
I think people who favor lots of money over free healthcare, education and such are self-centered and greedy. Society should always take the less fortunate into account.
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Why should I have to pay for someone else? It's pure thievery is what it is :/.

I'll work, make my OWN MONEY, and take care of MYSELF. Everyone should do the same, it's not my job to make sure lazy people get a free ride.
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
Why should I have to pay for someone else? It's pure thievery is what it is :/.

I'll work, make my OWN MONEY, and take care of MYSELF. Everyone should do the same, it's not my job to make sure lazy people get a free ride.
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So you would want to work hard day in and day out only to lose it all to some guy in a BMW whos parents are rich enough so he doesnt have to work a day in his life, and still can afford a lawyer that makes sure he dosent have to pay anything for driving into you...

Bet you would not care about taxes if you got free health care then.

Besides, good education and good healthcare SHOULD ABSOLUTLY NOT be something that only the rich can enjoy!
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
Why should I have to pay for someone else? It's pure thievery is what it is :/.

I'll work, make my OWN MONEY, and take care of MYSELF. Everyone should do the same, it's not my job to make sure lazy people get a free ride.
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If you were a brick layer and one day your hands were cut off...What would you do? Keep working for you money to buy health care? What if brick laying was the only thing in the world you were able to do well, and that happened?
Like the man said, medical attention is not a privalage, its a right.
 
Farrowlesparrow said:
If you were a brick layer and one day your hands were cut off...What would you do? Keep working for you money to buy health care? What if brick laying was the only thing in the world you were able to do well, and that happened?
Like the man said, medical attention is not a privalage, its a right.
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Agreement.
 
HunterSeeker said:
So you would want to work hard day in and day out only to lose it all to some guy in a BMW whos parents are rich enough so he doesnt have to work a day in his life, and still can afford a lawyer that makes sure he dosent have to pay anything for driving into you...

Bet you would not care about taxes if you got free health care then.

Besides, good education and good healthcare SHOULD ABSOLUTLY NOT be something that only the rich can enjoy!
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I don't see how I "lose it" in your statement. What you said doesn't make sense. If you mean lost my job, if it was late in life, I'd have savings and options with the company, I wouldn't be stupid enough to not be prepared for the worst. If it was early in life, there'd be more than enough time to get another job, there's high demand in lots of fields. I wouldn't use or want free healthcare, it's just thievery.

As for the brick layer thing- I wouldn't be one, I would never be in that situation. Anyone who can do ONLY THAT has that problem from their own fault, by not caring about their education, etc.

Insurance is affordable, it's not a situation of only the rich being able to afford it.


Also: Healthcare is not a right. What document says healthcare is a right? Certainly not the constitution. You can't FORCE OTHERS to take care of YOU. Healthcare can't be a RIGHT because it takes away rights from others, someone has to treat them. The doctor and the taxpayers. There can be no "right" the REQUIRES services from others.
 
Indeed. Selfish people like you who refuse to help others are the reason your country's number of poor people are rising, and rising fast.
 
I don't agree with one being provided if you can't afford it. A right of allowance of one. (IE: If you want to get one is what it should be, they can't say "No, you can't bring a lawyer in")

And I don't appreciate being called names, Champ. Thinking that the lazy should not get a free ride is not selfishness.

Some guy didn't pay attention in his education, he now has a crap job because he dropped out (his own choosing.) Then there's me, who worked hard, got a degree, worked hard in my life and job to make sure I was secure and such. Then all of the sudden the other guy says "Well I can't afford this medical thing! You, RakuraiTenjin, you pay for it." But wha.. I worked hard.. he took the easy route in life.. and now I AM THE ONE PENALIZED FOR IT?! Is this bizzaro world? :/
 
Before I leave for bed....


Really, Not everyone has the inteligence to get a degree no matter how hard they try. There is a reason why people get jobs as Brick layers and plumbers and electricions etc.
 
If you get a lethal disease you should both be fixed up to top, at no cost whatsoever. I still think those who do get a better job SHOULD have more money, but the difference should not be GARGANTUAN. If he can afford an appropiate size apartment, hot water, electricity, a TV and a not so high end PC. And you can afford a nice car, plasma TV, DVD, Hot water and electricity, air conditioning, an no make that two up to date PCs, cable connection etc... and still have money left to travel for 2 months a year I dont see the problem. Are you so against helping others?

If someone put a gun to your head would you complain if no one helped even if they whre able to?

Also, I have a genetic disorder, there is no way I can manage to work full time for a long period of time thanks to it. It was not my choice and I can not get rid of it. Is it wrong that society compensates me for the money I lose, that everyone helps me to pay for surgery that improves my situation as much as possible?

And no name calling please.
 
I would move to Sweden or Switzerland...but damn the weather!
 
If he could afford all of that there is no way he wouldn't be able to afford insurance. If he can't afford that, it can only be his fault.

If someone put a gun to my head, I would really hope someone would help out, really really hope so, but it's not required of them.

I am sorry about your disorder, but that is really unfair to the people who worked hard to have to pay for your stuff.

Now, what I DO propose, is a government healthcare system that has OPTIONAL taxing. With an untouchable fund bank for it (unlike social security, etc.) Those who want government healthcare pay into it, and they receive the benefits. If we don't want it, we don't pay into it at all, we pay insurance, and we wouldn't be able to go to government medical facilities, only private ones. Emergency situations (shot, sawed off hand, etc) would go to the nearest place but then charge you later (like it does now anyway, emergencies are already like that)

I would support that because it doesn't FORCE people. And I would pay into private insurance, because if I get sick, I'm going to somewhere like the Mayo Health Clinic, not some government center.
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
If he could afford all of that there is no way he wouldn't be able to afford insurance. If he can't afford that, it can only be his fault.

If someone put a gun to my head, I would really hope someone would help out, really really hope so, but it's not required of them.

I am sorry about your disorder, but that is really unfair to the people who worked hard to have to pay for your stuff.

Now, what I DO propose, is a government healthcare system that has OPTIONAL taxing. With an untouchable fund bank for it (unlike social security, etc.) Those who want government healthcare pay into it, and they receive the benefits. If we don't want it, we don't pay into it at all, we pay insurance, and we wouldn't be able to go to government medical facilities, only private ones. Emergency situations (shot, sawed off hand, etc) would go to the nearest place but then charge you later (like it does now anyway, emergencies are already like that)

I would support that because it doesn't FORCE people. And I would pay into private insurance, because if I get sick, I'm going to somewhere like the Mayo Health Clinic, not some government center.
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That system simply wouldnt work. Big businesses (Such as healthcare) depend upon a solid reliable budget. If it changed for some reason (Intrest rates rose and people needed their extra cash to pay off loans for example) then the business would lose a huge amount of money and wouldnt be able to supply its services.



It simply doesnt work.

What we have present is best. And thats why we still have it.
 
Is it really so unfair? I mean no one NEEDS so much money for themselves (heck if I got 100.000 dollars I would prolly give most of it to charity). And many are born rich, they can be the dumbest people in the world but they can live better then everybody else, they dont deserve it but they still have it.

I pray humanity will once find a cure to the horrible disease known as "GREED".
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
If someone put a gun to my head, I would really hope someone would help out, really really hope so, but it's not required of them.
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That would be a bad society. I assume you dont want to pay for law enforcment so there would be no police, thus anybody could kill you as they wish. I really dont see a bright future should law enforcment be privatized, you might as well give each man his own country...
 
Why should I even bother working for myself if I know the state will always be there to pamper me?

No one NEEDS the computers either. No one NEEDS anything except food, shelter, etc. People worked hard for their money, the government has no moral ground to come in and steal from them.

I support private charities wholeheartedly and will gladly give part of my income to them. It's not COMPULSORY. It's not thievery, it's something I choose to do on my own. When it becomes compulsory, then it becomes thievery.

Also Marksman, I agree, but I was just trying to find some way to compromise with the socialists. The system now is best.
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
And I don't appreciate being called names, Champ.
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I hear ye... I apologise.
I just think it's better to have a balanced society instead of a sky-high top and a bottom that's farther down than hell. That's America, there are very rich people, there are very poor people and there those in between. All three categories are heavily populated. And that's really not the ideal community...
 
No problem Champ, it's alrighty :]

Well, no one's stuck in any one of them. People rise and fall to each one based on thier own merit.

My parents were born into the lowest one, the low low one. But they strived hard and now they live middle class. I am going to strive hard and hope to hit it rich big time.
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
(...)
Some guy didn't pay attention in his education, he now has a crap job because he dropped out (his own choosing.) Then there's me, who worked hard, got a degree, worked hard in my life and job to make sure I was secure and such. Then all of the sudden the other guy says "Well I can't afford this medical thing! You, RakuraiTenjin, you pay for it." But wha.. I worked hard.. he took the easy route in life.. and now I AM THE ONE PENALIZED FOR IT?! Is this bizzaro world? :/
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What you're missing is that not everyone has the same conditions to educate themselves. It doesn't matter how much you want to study if your parents are unemployed or alcoholics, or if they simply cant afford to put you through college. One thing I've been wondering, is the cost of college just for the living quarters or is it for all the tutoring? Personally I think it's wrong that the more money you own the better education you are entitled to. In the end it only creates rifts of classes that wont benefit the economy or the society.


The whole idea of this system is not to give away money to lazy bums but to help those less fortunate so that they can still get a chance in life and be productive in the society. Just as you pay taxes so that all the kids can go to school, it's an investment from the society, but in return the society will get an educated labour force to secure it's future.

The US will have a problem if they dont do something about their growing group of uneducated and unemployed people. It's a problem that will eat up a country from the inside. With a growing population that cant consume the economy will collapse.
 
Champ said:
I hear ye... I apologise.
I just think it's better to have a balanced society instead of a sky-high top and a bottom that's farther down than hell. That's America, there are very rich people, there are very poor people and there those in between. All three categories are heavily populated. And that's really not the ideal community...
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True it is better if everyone was in between...

Thats dreaming though, reallistcally it should be that the majority is in between and just a few who are very rich.
 
Tr0n said:
I would move to Sweden or Switzerland...but damn the weather!
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The weather might look bad from another country... but i've been living here in Swedland all my life and i kinda like the weather. We have cold winters with a lot of snow (20-, 1+ meters of snow sometimes here on the west coust.. mm winter of 94) and hot summers (been ~30 all week) but then again... everything in between is rain... so meh :)
 
Think we're going to have to just agree to disagree on tax healthcare. ;P. For me, the individual and how they take care of themselves is most sacred and important, and that won't change. As someone said earlier as if it were a bad thing- if it was possible, I would give every man his own country.
 
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