Question on ethics

[MrD]

Sub, let's make an analogy here!

Say you buy a train ticket. Now, this ticket cost you $40 to get form one city to another, say, 50 miles apart. It's ridiculous that you have to pay for a SECOND ticket for a family member, you already paid for the ticket! There should be 2 or 3 extra seats for your family on the train. It's only fair.

Shuzer, let's make an analogy here!

Say you buy a new house. Now, this house cost you £125,000. It's rediculous that your other family members can all use the house at the same time as you!! OMG OMG they should sooo have to buy one each. It's only fair.

Anyway, analogies aside. It's not too much to ask that a couple kids, siblings or whatever, can play a game on their lan. With one copy. It's a bit scroogy to expect otherwise really. And no matter what "corporate spin" you try to put on it, that fact remains. One word. Greedy.

EDIT: ps. if you can do this with HL2 then cool.

 

[Shuzer]

Oh please, a house is not a one person use kinda item (unless it's really small). A better example would be a hotel room, but you still have to pay per person with those. Besides, there's a fine line between one hundred and twenty-five thousand quid and forty dollars

 

[poseyjmac]

Shuzer, let's make an analogy here!

Say you buy a new house. Now, this house cost you £125,000. It's rediculous that your other family members can all use the house at the same time as you!! OMG OMG they should sooo have to buy one each. It's only fair.

one house is designed to hold more than one person, thats a given. one copy of a video game is designed for one person to be at the keyboard and mouse.

 

[MrD]

lol

It's just your perception that a house is "not a one person use kinda item". As it is with most people come to think of it. Similarly, i feel the same about games, at least in the home LAN sense. It just depends on how you look at things. Unforunately, at the end of the day it comes down to what the publisher wants. And they want as much money as possible!

Looks like this doesn't really apply to HL2 anyway. But there was a lot of heat. Like it'd make you some kind of criminal for even thinking you could play it on your lan! I was just sticking up for my memories.

one house is designed to hold more than one person, thats a given. one copy of a video game is designed for one person to be at the keyboard and mouse.

Unless it's "You Don't Know Jack" ...

 

[genocide604]

When you mail the coupon, its not actually the coupon itself but a photocopy with proof of purchase... and you still have the original with the key.. thats how i will still play cs:s.

 

[Shuzer]

lol

It's just your perception that a house is "not a one person use kinda item". As it is with most people come to think of it. Similarly, i feel the same about games, at least in the home LAN sense. Unforunately, at the end of the day it comes down to what the publisher wants. And they want as much money as possible!

Looks like this doesn't really apply to HL2 anyway. But there was a lot of heat. Like it'd make you some kind a criminal for even thinking you could play it on your lan! I was just sticking up for my memories.

lol, the way I worded my previous post was overwhelming. I sounded overly intelligent!

Anyhow.. uhm, yep. I think LAN should be playable on one key. We'll see.. someone should e-mail VALVe and ask if that's possible

 

[poseyjmac]

but you keep forgetting WHY they want as much money as possible.

ill bring it up one more time just for good measure. piracy. once you factor this in, they dont seem so greedy, just trying to get a semblance of whats rightfully theirs.

 

[MrD]

but you keep forgetting WHY they want as much money as possible.

ill bring it up one more time just for good measure. piracy. once you factor this in, they dont seem so greedy, just trying to get a semblance of whats rightfully theirs.

Nah.

Let's consider there are two types of piracy.

1) supr...um, "Warez": I download it, and play without paying.
2) "Casual Copying": I buy it, and give a copy to my mate, and so on.

Now type (1) happens regardless of copy protection. HL2 will be available on the internet mere days after release. Period.

And type (2) has existed since the dawn of time. Since the floppy disk. Since the cassette tape. Now i'll take a stick up the ass if you'd have me believe this problem is any worse now than it was back then. And companies seemed to do just fine back then.

So where exactly is this piracy "epidemic" ?


EDIT: removed a crap paragraph

 

[wonkers]

Ethics is the summation of whether the task is worth the cost. If you know you won't suffer ill consequences then do it. Life is about what you can take, not what you give.

Everyone one takes what they want, wanting is the meaning of life and to take is to be part of life. Even if that means taking life.

People create for the joy they get from doing so. In essense there is no selfless deed and we all steal, cheat, and lie.

Humanity is consumption.

 

[antimatter]

Here's a solution idea: (unless its been mentioned already)

Valve checks the IP of each CD Key during authentication and if the same cdkey is being used on multiple different IPs, then they prevent the players from playing. But if the cdkey is being used on multiple pcs from the same IP, then they should allow it. This would allow households to use one copy to play online on multiple machines. Is this how the starcraft spawn system works? Thoughts?

 

[poseyjmac]

Nah.

Let's consider there are two types of piracy.

1) supr...um, "Warez": I download it, and play without paying.
2) "Casual Copying": I buy it, and give a copy to my mate, and so on.

Now type (1) happens regardless of copy protection. HL2 will be available on the internet mere days after release. Period.

And type (2) has existed since the dawn of time. Since the floppy disk. Since the cassette tape. Now i'll take a stick up the ass if you'd have me believe this problem is any worse now than it was back then. And companies seemed to do just fine back then.

So where exactly is this piracy "epidemic" ?


EDIT: removed a crap paragraph

are you truly that dumb to challenge whether or not there is an issue of piracy in todays world?

where is the piracy epidemic? how about all over the internet including bittorrents, irc, newsgroups, p2p file sharing networks, not to mention in other countries they sell pirated software on the streets.

 

[poseyjmac]

Here's a solution idea: (unless its been mentioned already)

Valve checks the IP of each CD Key during authentication and if the same cdkey is being used on multiple different IPs, then they prevent the players from playing. But if the cdkey is being used on multiple pcs from the same IP, then they should allow it. This would allow households to use one copy to play online on multiple machines. Is this how the starcraft spawn system works? Thoughts?

so then 16 gamers could connect to the net through a router using 1 copy of hl2, and they could all successfully play. i mean, really, all people have to do is proxy their connection, and voila instant copies of hl2.

 

[Shuzer]

Ethics is the summation of whether the task is worth the cost. If you know you won't suffer ill consequences then do it. Life is about what you can take, not what you give.

Everyone one takes what they want, wanting is the meaning of life and to take is to be part of life. Even if that means taking life.

People create for the joy they get from doing so. In essense there is no selfless deed and we all steal, cheat, and lie.

Humanity is consumption.

That's a really really really sad, depressing outlook on life.

 

[JackKerouac]

wow some of the posts in this thread are out of control

 

[McFace]

...Now type (1) happens regardless of copy protection. HL2 will be available on the internet mere days after release. Period...

Correction! Mere days BEFORE release.

are you truly that dumb to challenge whether or not there is an issue of piracy in todays world?

where is the piracy epidemic? how about all over the internet including bittorrents, irc, newsgroups, p2p file sharing networks, not to mention in other countries they sell pirated software on the streets.

It is an epidemic no doubt, but its not going to stop because it's so easy (mp3's anyone?) and appealing to do (unless your rabidly against it)

The only way its going to stop is:
A) It becomes to time consuming to do that it would be easier to just BUY the product.
B) The supply is cut.

Until then, it's here to stay.

 

[Shuzer]

Correction! Mere days BEFORE release.

Doubtful. Doom 3 hasn't and it looks like it won't leak before it hits retail stores.

It all depends on the security measures taken at the production facilities

 

[McFace]

Doubtful. Doom 3 hasn't and it looks like it won't leak before it hits retail stores.

It all depends on the security measures taken at the production facilities

True, most pirated games don't come out until they've been shipped though, so if it isn't released sometime this weekend then I'd have to agree with you on this one.

Most releases are before though, farcry was out 2 weeks before it hit shelves I believe, but that must have had to do with production facilities.

 

[Falcon(Nate)]

There is a solution that most of you aren't looking at/maybe haven't thought of.

Valve was tossing around the idea of a family plan for Steam. I haven't heard much about it for a long time.

The idea was that a "family" would get multiple SteamIDs to use for a monthly fee. Everybody would have their OWN log-ins and passwords and the SteamIDs would function just like everybody else's.

Boxed copies will more than likely remain one ID per boxed copy bought. But with more and more online-only games being made (or just multiplayer components), perhaps it IS time that family plans exist. Monthly fee Steam accounts would be the perfect place to implement this. Perhaps $8/month for single users, $12/month for "family accounts" with up to 5 users or something like that.

Someone would have to e-mail the team to see if they're still planning on doing something like the monthly fee "family plan". But who knows if they've decided all of that yet anyway.

Of course, they could get more complicated and implement IP checking to make sure everyone was playing from the same household since 4 of your buddies and you could just go in on the same sort of thing.

Also, I'm not sure if Steam in Offline Mode will allow the same SteamID to be in the same LAN game. I have a feeling you're going to need separate IDs for everyone even for LAN games unless something changes.

 

[poseyjmac]

Correction! Mere days BEFORE release.



It is an epidemic no doubt, but its not going to stop because it's so easy (mp3's anyone?) and appealing to do (unless your rabidly against it)

The only way its going to stop is:
A) It becomes to time consuming to do that it would be easier to just BUY the product.
B) The supply is cut.

Until then, it's here to stay.

you forgot C) palladium

 

[MrD]

are you truly that dumb to challenge whether or not there is an issue of piracy in todays world?

where is the piracy epidemic? how about all over the internet including bittorrents, irc, newsgroups, p2p file sharing networks, not to mention in other countries they sell pirated software on the streets.

Yeah, on seconds thoughts, i'm not sure what i was thinking!

My point was more along the lines of: Why bother trying to beat piracy when you can't? All it serves is to frighten away more paying customers. But, don't answer that. I had switched in my head from online key protections to CD copy protections.

Note to self: Don't write messages when tired!
:cheers:

 

[Sub_Lon]

No it's not a ripoff, it's the way it has been for years and here you come out of the blue and want everything to change just so you get what you want. And your solution with "extra slots" bound to one key is just ridiculous, it would cut sales in half in the "best case" scenario, because almost everyone would buy their cdkeys on ebay for just 5-10 bucks. It's so god-damn childish it makes me want to weep.

You get pretty emotional over viedo game sales, eh? My sister does too.

 

[Sub_Lon]

Here's a solution idea: (unless its been mentioned already)

Valve checks the IP of each CD Key during authentication and if the same cdkey is being used on multiple different IPs, then they prevent the players from playing. But if the cdkey is being used on multiple pcs from the same IP, then they should allow it. This would allow households to use one copy to play online on multiple machines. Is this how the starcraft spawn system works? Thoughts?

That almost sounds feesable(sp?) and is tHE KIND OF REPLY I was looking for. Some answer with some thought put into it. Not this epileptic siezure of responses and flames :flame:

But yeah, If the computers are behind a router, then wouldn't Steam only see one IP address? Does anyone have any info to confirm or dispute this?

 

[Ateoto]

You get pretty emotional over viedo game sales, eh? My sister does too.

This reminds me. Is there an ignore list feature on this forum?

EDIT:nvm found it. Its in the User CP.

 

[Sub_Lon]

This reminds me. Is there an ignore list feature on this forum?

EDIT:nvm found it. Its in the User CP.

CB Para and I have been shooting them back and forth at eachother for a bit

Also Valve is looking to make big money from this game, despite piracy. Steam allows Valve to sell games directly, bypassing manufacturing and packaging costs. I saw an email from Gabe in which he said they make 2.5x more over steam sales than hard copy sales because of this. Lets not cry too hard for VALVe, they'll be just fine.

 

[Gunner]

When you've got a few dozen people telling you you're wrong you have to stop and ask yourself: Maybe I am talking out of my ass?. Stop for a second and think before you post.

You get pretty emotional over viedo game sales, eh? My sister does too.

Nice, very nice, I see you want to change the subject now. So I take it your idea of multiple slots bound to one key is a brilliant plan that would actually increase sales and make everyone happy. Very smart, you should be in charge of Valve's marketing.

 

[Sub_Lon]

When you've got a few dozen people telling you you're wrong you have to stop and ask yourself: Maybe I am talking out of my ass?. Stop for a second and think before you post.



Nice, very nice, I see you want to change the subject now. So I take it your idea of multiple slots bound to one key is a brilliant plan that would actually increase sales and make everyone happy. Very smart, you should be in charge of Valve's marketing.

You're an angry little man para

 

[selfdestruct]

You're an angry little man para

And you're a man who couldn't think of an adequate comeback.

 

[Gunner]

I think he just wants a third account

 

[smsKONG]

here you go guys, found this with a quick search-

Quote from www.steampowered.com


FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
QUESTIONS, ANSWERS, TROUBLESHOOTING...



TECHNICAL SUPPORT
Do I have to be connected to the Internet when I play Steam games?

Not any more.

Steam has added an "offline mode", in which any game that's fully updated can be played while not connected to the Internet.

In order to use offline mode, you need only start Steam while not connected to the Internet. Steam will then ask you if you want to use offline mode. It's that simple. Note that in order to be able to use any game in offline mode, that game's content must be fully downloaded first. You can check to see how much of a game's content has been downloaded by looking at its properties page (just right-click on the game's name in your "My Games" list).

Offline mode is useful for LAN games and large scale LAN parties, where Internet connectivity is not practical.

So yes you can play LAN mode offline and I doubt very much that steam checks IDs in LAN mode(but who knows, only time will tell. Unless someone emails valve)


Oh and for the record:

EITHER:

if its only the offline or LAN ability you want, then fair enuf, you should (and likely will) be able to have multiple instances running off one copy. :thumbs:

OR:

If you are suggesting that you have some divine right to buy one copy and have multiple instances running online multiplayer- then you are living in a spoilt little world of your own pal. :dork:

 

[wonkers]

That's a really really really sad, depressing outlook on life.

Yes...but if you take away the dazzle and glamour of everyday emotions, you get what you see. There is no magic. There is no Buddah, Alah, God, or other diety to guide our simple and poinless existance through change.

It's not sad. It's just simple. The smell of October, Cinnemin in your coffee, Your first sexual experience, the good things in life are means to releasing our endorphens.

When you take away irrational thought, it all comes down to people doing what they do because they want to. The only thing that stops people are consequences which they choose to understand or not.

I don't believe in rules "per say" but someone didn't want something to happen so they made rules to protect them. That's their thought, opinion, and way of thinking. Just because they may be a majority doesn't mean they are right.

Valve works hard on games. Then they protect it. It's their livelyhood. They create consequence and you choose to understand it or get around it. Simple as that. Those who steal do. And those who get caught... Are just that. Caught.

Wonkers Ain't it.

 

[v1p3r]

CB Para, you have the word "pwned!" as your avatar. 'nuff said.

Shuzer, yes, I do feel entitled. Anyone who spends $50 or buys a video card for this game should very well feel entitled to enjoy the game with a friend.

I guess my question has been answered, I'll shoot an email to VALVe and post the reply here.

So basicaly your saying "I bought this game and im poor so give me another one."

I dont think thats going to work :dozey:

 

[Sub_Lon]

here you go guys, found this with a quick search-


So yes you can play LAN mode offline and I doubt very much that steam checks IDs in LAN mode(but who knows, only time will tell. Unless someone emails valve)


Oh and for the record:

EITHER:

if its only the offline or LAN ability you want, then fair enuf, you should (and likely will) be able to have multiple instances running off one copy. :thumbs:

OR:

If you are suggesting that you have some divine right to buy one copy and have multiple instances running online multiplayer- then you are living in a spoilt little world of your own pal. :dork:

Thanks SmSKong, that's the info I was looking for. It would be pretty shitty if HL2 didn't allow LAN games or anything. Playing online is understandable, the ability to play LAN games with 1 CD key is fair enough.

 

[smsKONG]

Thanks SmSKong, that's the info I was looking for. It would be pretty shitty if HL2 didn't allow LAN games or anything. Playing online is understandable, the ability to play LAN games with 1 CD key is fair enough.

no probs- but just to reiterate- Its not definite confirmation, as it only says LAN is possible offline, it doesn't actually say whether or not each computer will need it's own seperate ID.
Fingers crossed it'll be okay..

 

[Ahnteis]

Yes...but if you take away the dazzle and glamour of everyday emotions, you get what you see. There is no magic. There is no Buddah, Alah, God, or other diety to guide our simple and poinless existance through change. ....

Wonkers Ain't it.

(Taking this into off-topic.) Prove it. If there's a God, he certainly doesn't need your approval, it's the other way around. Can't prove it? Not surprising.

 

[Sub_Lon]

no probs- but just to reiterate- Its not definite confirmation, as it only says LAN is possible offline, it doesn't actually say whether or not each computer will need it's own seperate ID.
Fingers crossed it'll be okay..

Well, if I download HL2 with my steam account, then logged off, and then go to another computer and log in with my steam account and download HL2.... take them both offline and hook up a LAN game... ? Sounds like it will work. :cheers:

Religious folk hijacking my thread: God is coming back some day. God and the rest of his alien race.

 

[McFace]

you forgot C) palladium

Have not heard of this? Care to explain?

EDIT:

Just read up on it, it stops you from running unlicensed software, more protection basiclly.

I can see how this would work but, it would be hacked like anything else (although that is yet to be determined). So wouldn't the pirates just stay on a lower operation system?

Disney will be able to sell you DVDs that will decrypt and run on a Palladium platform, but which you won't be able to copy.

True, but if it were running on a lower operation system, you could create a decrypter that thinks it's running on a Palladium.

I also think alot of people will speak out about it, not just pirates, average users if they are informed. Mostly because it's basiclly like having a Big Brother watching what your doing, making sure you run only what they want you to run. Privacy is thrown out the window. THen again it's Microsoft, what are we to do about it?

 

[MrD]

THen again it's Microsoft, what are we to do about it?

We dump the computer in the bin and go back to Conkers!

 

[poseyjmac]

Have not heard of this? Care to explain?

EDIT:

Just read up on it, it stops you from running unlicensed software, more protection basiclly.

I can see how this would work but, it would be hacked like anything else (although that is yet to be determined). So wouldn't the pirates just stay on a lower operation system?
True, but if it were running on a lower operation system, you could create a decrypter that thinks it's running on a Palladium.

I also think alot of people will speak out about it, not just pirates, average users if they are informed. Mostly because it's basiclly like having a Big Brother watching what your doing, making sure you run only what they want you to run. Privacy is thrown out the window. THen again it's Microsoft, what are we to do about it?

you didn't read far enough. its not a piece of software. its a piece of hardware that will come with future motherboards. microsoft longhorn is going to go hand in hand with it as well. dont be so quick to just say, oh they will find a way, this is a whole new ballgame.

 

[McFace]

Ah I see, well your right we won't be able to see what happens until it's finally released but, I got a nagging feeling this won't be the savior to piracy. Although I'm sure it will do alot of damage, something tells me someones going to find a way.

 

[Fixed]

dont be so quick to just say, oh they will find a way, this is a whole new ballgame.

Just like the PS2 and XBox have hardware copy protection?

If there's a way in there's a way out. This is just a new iteration, no biggie.