Religion and Common Sense

[Lucifer Crass]

Topic : Is religion nessesary in todays world
Subtopic : Does God really exist


Rules :
1. Cannot Disrespect any Religion or Religious Point of view (Even if its obviously stupid)
2. Flames will be deleted on site (Hopefully)
3. Backup your point of view and cite your source (Even websites or books)
4. Don't disrespect scientific theorys, sometimes they are right. I.e. orbits/astornomy

Useful hints - Religious People
- Athiests will not listen to evidence from the bible
- Evolution has as many plot holes the accused bible has.
- Big Bang theory is really flimsy.
- Use evidence of Ghosts and other paranormal activity to backup angles and other such sightings.
- To boost you point of view to the opposing side, DO NOT "" from the bible. It means nothing to them.

Useful hints - Non Believers
- Bible has a lot of plot holes and in one book it mentions something about ritual sacrifices.
- You could use, Where has God been ever sence the bible, comment.
- Religious people will not take scientific evidence into account unless proven.
- Swearing will not help your argument
- Progress of man since bible and after.
- Psychology is really useful

P.S.
There is NO right or wrong in this subject. Keep it that way.
For those of you who are new to the forums, this thread will make or break you instantly. I suggest refering to the forum rules before posting. Those of you that have been here for a while, welcome back!
I will not post any of my views or the mods will have my ass handed to me on a silver platter. GG

This is a very serious thread. NO SPAM. Swearing is useless! KNOW WHAT UR TALKING ABOUT! Once again, Don't hate, donate!

Now Please Begin....................... :cheers:

 

[63]

damn romans!

 

[Prince of China]

I must say, this is probably the first thread with all these rules guarenteed to make sure no flame wars do not break out. I hope this doesn't turn into a gay-marriage discussion.
Anyways, Religion is not just about neccessity. You can live without religion, not just something to answer unexplainable things. Not all religion has some kind of God, some are about inner peace like Bhuddism. So, it's not a matter of what's neccessary or not, you can choose to be religious.
Edit:Six Three, did you even read the first post?

 

[brink's]

I'm kind of borderline on the subject of god. I dont practice anything from the bible, yet I don't use the lords name in vain. I guess im trying to cover my self from both sides. Sooner or later I will have to choose to believe or not to believe though.

 

[Lucifer Crass]

Refer to the topic people!!

Gods existance and Religion in todays society.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, WHY!!

 

[blahblahblah]

Yes religion is needed in this world. Religion in its most broad sense refers to a set of beliefs. Even if you are atheistic, you still have a religion because you have a set of beliefs.

Yes, God does really exist. If you take a look outside and see nature in its fullest, it is hard for me to believe that it was a proverbial "accident."

 

[AzzMan]

Why does everything you see outside have to have been the work of a god? Why no other posibility? Not necessarily saying it was an accident, but for it to not be an accident does not mean that "God" had to have created it.

 

[blahblahblah]

What other possibility? If no God, how else would something be created? The probability of two elements linking together and eventually forming a person seems flat out impossible (and probably are if you look at probabilities) to me.

 

[mchammer75040]

Yes, God does really exist. If you take a look outside and see nature in its fullest, it is hard for me to believe that it was a proverbial "accident."

If God doesnt exist, it doesnt mean by default it was a accident or just some random mess.
Does a God exist? Depends on your definition of what god is. If its those of the religions, Id say I dont believe they exist, for various reasons. If its something that moves the universe, then yes I believe there is.

Yes I think religion is neccessary today.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."Albert Einstein

 

[Neutrino]

Yes religion is needed in this world. Religion in its most broad sense refers to a set of beliefs. Even if you are atheistic, you still have a religion because you have a set of beliefs.

Yes, God does really exist. If you take a look outside and see nature in its fullest, it is hard for me to believe that it was a proverbial "accident."

I strongly disagree with you on this. I do happen to be an atheist for the most part. I'm actually agnostic, but for all intents and purposes I may as well just say atheist. Now I do not think that I have any sort of religion, nor do I have a set of beliefs. I'm very careful not to cultivate any beliefs myself, as I think they don't offer a very correct view of the world for myself atleast. Sure I have certain ways of thinking based on evidence and my own experience, but I'm also prepared to change those at a drop of a hat if they are shown to be wrong.

I just see know reason why someone has to "believe" in something if they don't want to. Sure I have views and opinions, but those may change based on the current evidence presented and my own experiences.

 

[Neutrino]

What other possibility? If no God, how else would something be created? The probability of two elements linking together and eventually forming a person seems flat out impossible (and probably are if you look at probabilities) to me.

What do you mean by "two elements linking together and eventually forming a person?" That's not a very good description of evolutionary or biological theory. These fields are incredibly complex. Sure if you look at them on the surface they can seem almost like magic or of supernatural design, but you can't really understand them until you really study their details.

I'm not trying to dissuad you from believing in god, but unless your prepared to really research and offer a logical argument I don't think it's wise to critique current scientific theory in this matter about how life may have been created. Not saying you can't question it, but I would just suggest you try to fully understand it before doing so.

 

[MultiVaC]

If you think about it, most every event defies probability. We just rarely notice it because most things are of little consequence or the alternative outcomes are very similar. Let's say I took a million coins and dropped them out of a helicopter and exactly 435,809 of them landed on tails. It's highly improbable that the number of tails would = 435,809 instead of any other number less than or equal to one million, yet it happens. (Of course there is only on possible outcome when all the physical variables are accounted for, but we're talking from a human perspective)

 

[Lil' Timmy]

What do you mean by "two elements linking together and eventually forming a person?" That's not a very good description of evolutionary or biological theory.

that's not a very good description of anything.. :angry:

anyway, wasn't there a thread with this exact same title a while back? i'm sure there was.. and i believe i remember my opening response. i will paraphrase it here. lovely.

i'm neither religious nor spiritual because i've never felt like i needed explanations for anything beyond normal reality. for what is religion other than a set of beliefs in order to explain the world? i never really thought about something and said, "gee, that has to have something supernatural or metaphysical involved". if i had to categorize myself, i'd say i'm an agnostic. i lean towards atheism, but i have no proff there are no gods. however if there are, they've neve taken an interest in my life, so i don't take an interest in theirs.

so it's about what you experience (see, feel, etc.). generally, i love life and being alive. i'd tend to describe myself as a humanist, but i've a deep abiding love and respect for the "natural world". i'm something of an observer (as a scientist i have to be), but i also just like to sit and feel the world around me. smells, sounds, sights, i like to just stop and feel it all sometimes. but in all my life, since as long as i can remember, i've never experienced anything that would lead me to believe that there is more to this world than my experiences, nor have i any cause to believe that that set of experiences contains anything 'metaphysical' or spiritual.

i have no problem with other peoples beliefs because i don't know what they've experienced. the good thing about science, as a whole, is that it tends to be very internally consistent and coherent, and of course it's very testable. as most people understand this is the real difference between science and spirituality: science is verifiable by physical evidence accesible to anyone; spitualities are 'verifiable' only through anecdotal metaphysical visitations of some sort. either one can float your boat, but for me, for my personality, i'm going to have to stick with the material world. it's just simpler, call me lazy.

if i were less tired, i'd take issue with some of your "rules" and characterizations, coolio. they seem to belie a serious misunderstanding of science. but that's a discussion for another time (or another forumite). to bed for me

 

[ailevation]

:O Every heard of Tetrahedrons(Not the math related one)? Supposedly they're like pure energy, thought to be keys to the universe. I forget it's idea's. Yeah, i'm into those theories about Mirror of Cydonia, pyramids used as teleportation devices, how aliens are our ancestors :O

[Canibus]
Yo, the holy script from Genesis 1-26
says, "Let us make man in our image under our likeness"
First of all who's THEY? You see if God
was truly a single entity that's not what he would say
We as the Elohim, Gods and Goddesses
posess a marvelously monsterous subconscious
Lifeforms that speak, in very high pitched sounds and squeaks
Short staccato clicks and beeps
A highly advanced form of speech
Even though to us it seems like they only chatterin they teeth
They used to swim deep in the oceans beneath
Til they fins transformed into limbs and they started to creep
Then they evolved into mammals with feet
And walked right from the shorelines onto the beach
They used gravity, cause it's actually the only force around
that could slow time and the speed of light down
The energy grid network, opened the gateway from Earth
to any point in the universe
Livin organisms and various, geomagnetic gravitational, anomaly areas
Space expedition teams in the lunar regions
reported seein, decapyramids and tetrahedrons
Liquid filled shoes, is what they used
to walk across the moon without leavin a clue
of where they been for the past twenty-three billion years
Before life on the surface even appeared

 

[Lucifer Crass]

that's not a very good description of anything.. :angry:

anyway, wasn't there a thread with this exact same title a while back? i'm sure there was.. and i believe i remember my opening response. i will paraphrase it here. lovely.

I am sorry you have some issues with my rules.
I created the last religion and common sense thread. Call me lazy also but they are general guidlines to follow. Mods of course carry out what they see as nessesary. I am really lazy thats why they are not more specific.

Every heard of Tetrahedrons(Not the math related one)? Supposedly they're like pure energy, thought to be keys to the universe. I forget it's idea's. Yeah, i'm into those theories about Mirror of Cydonia, pyramids used as teleportation devices, how aliens are our ancestors

This is not the topic at hand, so please do not spam this thread with nonsense.

 

[mchammer75040]

The rules and "hints" are alittle silly. I would suggest maybe deleting them and putting something else there, but this is your thread do what you will with it.

 

[Neutrino]

Just one thing I'd like to say at the start also. I normally have no problem with other's beliefs as long as they don't try to push them on me. Sometimes I feel complelled to correct peoples misunderstandings at times, but for the most part I'm reasonbly content to let people think what they want.

Having said that, I have some real problems with some religions. Specifically the Bible. I haven't read the whole thing (though I'm working on it) but I have read a bit and researched some. Just what really gets to me is a lot of people use this book as a basis for their religion. I'm not pointing at any one religion, just the one's that use the Bible in general. Now it seems many use it as a sort of guidline as well as a method for teaching the religion. Basically in some cases it is considered to be the word of god, or atleast close to it, and hold it as some sort of "truth" to live by.

No offense meant to anyone, but I find this pretty rediculous. If you actually look at what the Bible says there is some pretty horrific stuff in there. Sure it teaches things like love and compassion and respect for your fellow man. That's all well and good, But it also advocates slavery, talks lightly of mass murder, and doesn't seem to consider rape such a bad thing. There are many such comments but I'll just leave it at those. Now this seems to support the idea that this was written by people (men) from a long time ago when many of these things were acceptable. So it seems it is just interpretation of historical events written by very human hands and minds. Thus I do not think it is perfect, nor necessarily all that accurate.

It just highly disturbs me sometimes that people live by the teaching of this book, that seems to support so many aweful things at times. Sure it's great when only selective parts are taken and taught, but I worry that what is to prevent someone to decide the whole thing is the absolute "truth" and use it to justify things like, discrimination, slavery, murder, rape, gay bashing, etc. Which seems like a pretty legitimate worry as people have already done this at times.

Again, I don't wish to offend those of you that are religious. This is just my own view of things and I'm not trying to target any one group or religion. I just have a real problem with the Bible in general.

 

[blahblahblah]

What do you mean by "two elements linking together and eventually forming a person?" That's not a very good description of evolutionary or biological theory. These fields are incredibly complex. Sure if you look at them on the surface they can seem almost like magic or of supernatural design, but you can't really understand them until you really study their details.

I'm not trying to dissuad you from believing in god, but unless your prepared to really research and offer a logical argument I don't think it's wise to critique current scientific theory in this matter about how life may have been created. Not saying you can't question it, but I would just suggest you try to fully understand it before doing so.

I felt for a quick forum post, I did not need to give a small disertation on picking apart evolutionary science. yes, I know it is incredible complex science, which, in my opinion makes it more unlikely (the more complex something is, the less likely it will happen). You don't need to treat me like some second-rate lunatic, I do know what I am talking about.

What is sad is that I already know that I lost this debate/discussion. This is because of a me versuses the world mentality that is developing right now. What this thread will like form is that the people who have different beliefs than me will group together and discuss/attack my statements. What then will happen is that my posts will likely become more irrational as I try to defend myself. Eventually I will stop discussing in this thread because the discussion will be two fierce to continue defending my position. Oh well, might as well give it my best shot.

Picking apart Evolution V.01

1) It has never been observed of life coming from non-living matter. Law of Biogenesis
2) Random genetic mutation has never been shown to provide beneficial effects.
3) Fossil Gaps, no discussion needed.
4) Amino Acids (basic building blocks of life) could not have existed before life. Evolutionary theory dictates that life created an atmosphere which blocks the majority of UV radiation. With no atmosphere, UV radiation should have destroyed amino acids.
5) Amino Acids do not naturally link up to form proteins. No adequate energy source could have provided the necessary energy to create proteins without destroying it first.
7) If evolution did happen, where are 2, 3, 4, 5 celled animal life? 1 and 6 cell animal life exists. Evolutions suggests that there should be 2, 3, 4 ,5 celled life.

That should be enough to start. Based off of that, how should evolution exist?

Human natured is flawed. To say that you have not developed any opinions is an absolute lie. You surely have formed opinions on certain things. A true agnostic would not believe in anything (not in christianity or evolution). A true agnostic is like communism. Good in theory, horrible in practice.

 

[Neutrino]

Human natured is flawed. To say that you have not developed any opinions is an absolute lie. You surely have formed opinions on certain things. A true agnostic would not believe in anything (not in christianity or evolution). A true agnostic is like communism. Good in theory, horrible in practice.

I'll reply to the rest of your post, but it will take a little bit to form a decent discussion. However, I just wanted to address this one part. I said very specifically that I do have opinions. I never said I did not. I only said I did not have beliefs, which is something different.

 

[DarkStar]

Wow. Rules? Looks like the internet isn't like Nam afterall! There are rules! Anyway, no offense but this thread seems too organized for me. I prefer total chaos. Bye!

 

[mchammer75040]

No offense meant to anyone, but I find this pretty rediculous. If you actually look at what the Bible says there is some pretty horrific stuff in there. Sure it teaches things like love and compassion and respect for your fellow man. That's all well and good, But it also advocates slavery, talks lightly of mass murder, and doesn't seem to consider rape such a bad thing. There are many such comments but I'll just leave it at those. Now this seems to support the idea that this was written by people (men) from a long time ago when many of these things were acceptable. So it seems it is just interpretation of historical events written by very human hands and minds. Thus I do not think it is perfect, nor necessarily all that accurate.

Couldnt agree more, theres a long list of atrocities in the old testament that are pretty disturbing. Let us also not forget the number of forgeries found throughout the bible, as well as things that seem totally absurd. I dont see how anyone can take the bible as a credible source or as the "word of God" when you take all of these things into consideration. Not tryin to offend, only expressing my opinion.

 

[blahblahblah]

Couldnt agree more, theres a long list of atrocities in the old testament that are pretty disturbing. Let us also not forget the number of forgeries found throughout the bible, as well as things that seem totally absurd. I dont see how anyone can take the bible as a credible source or as the "word of God" when you take all of these things into consideration. Not tryin to offend, only expressing my opinion.

If you weren't trying to offend anybody, you wouldn't have said/wrote it. I will refer you to a modified Neutrinos post.

"I'm not trying to dissuad you from believing in whatever, but unless your prepared to really research and offer a logical argument I don't think it's wise to critique the bible in this matter about anything. Not saying you can't question it, but I would just suggest you try to fully understand it before doing so."

 

[Neutrino]

I felt for a quick forum post, I did not need to give a small disertation on picking apart evolutionary science. yes, I know it is incredible complex science, which, in my opinion makes it more unlikely (the more complex something is, the less likely it will happen).

Why do you say that? The more complex something is the less likely it is to happen? But no matter whether you take a scientific or religous view, the world and universe is an incredibly complex thing yet it exists. Are you saying that more complex theories are less likely to be true than more simple ones? How about Einsteins theory of general and special relativity? These theories have been proven and tested yet they are quite complex.

You don't need to treat me like some second-rate lunatic, I do know what I am talking about.[/qoute]

Truly sorry if I came off like that. Didn't mean to at all.

What is sad is that I already know that I lost this debate/discussion. This is because of a me versuses the world mentality that is developing right now. What this thread will like form is that the people who have different beliefs than me will group together and discuss/attack my statements. What then will happen is that my posts will likely become more irrational as I try to defend myself. Eventually I will stop discussing in this thread because the discussion will be two fierce to continue defending my position. Oh well, might as well give it my best shot.

This might sound a bit rude, but have you considered why your posts may become more irrational as you continue to defend youself. I'm not saying at all that they are wrong, only that I think it is very difficult to argue in favor of something that is inherently unprovable. So the deeper you get, I think the harder it is going to get to provide arguments and evidence. Just some thoughts on it.

Picking apart Evolution V.01

1) It has never been observed of life coming from non-living matter. Law of Biogenesis

God has never been observed either. Does that automatically rule out the possibility that he exists?

2) Random genetic mutation has never been shown to provide beneficial effects.

Well the first thing that comes to mind is bacteria. Bacteria have been mutating due to the application of antibiotics and have developed stronger more resistant strains. Is this not a beneficial mutation for the bacteria?

3) Fossil Gaps, no discussion needed.

I think there is discussion needed. Which specific fossil gaps are you speaking of? And of course there are going to be fossil gaps. I mean fossils are quite rare really, and they take special circumstances to even form. We can't expect all the past creatures to be neatly laid out in a complete fossil pattern.

Are you talking about transitional forms too? Because there are lots of examples of these, including Archeopteryx, apart reptile, part bird, Ambulocetus natans, a transtional form between land mamal and whale, among many human transitional forms.

4) Amino Acids (basic building blocks of life) could not have existed before life. Evolutionary theory dictates that life created an atmosphere which blocks the majority of UV radiation. With no atmosphere, UV radiation should have destroyed amino acids.

Please provide some evidence of this. What about outgassing from volcanos? Sure photosythesis created most of the oxygen in the atmosphere, but I've never heard that life created the entire atmoshere before, so a link would be appreciated.

5) Amino Acids do not naturally link up to form proteins. No adequate energy source could have provided the necessary energy to create proteins without destroying it first.

Again, please provide evidence that an energy source would gurantee a protiens distruction.

7) If evolution did happen, where are 2, 3, 4, 5 celled animal life? 1 and 6 cell animal life exists. Evolutions suggests that there should be 2, 3, 4 ,5 celled life.

I'm not that up to date on this exact issue, but why must evolution mean there is 2, 3, 4, and 5 celled animals? Perhaps those numbers of cells are less efficient and died out. But I'd like more info on this.

That should be enough to start. Based off of that, how should evolution exist?

I see nothing to disprove the theory. Most of the evidence you give seems to be from a lack of evidence or gaps in knowledge. If you use that argument to try to disprove evolution then your just inviting the same method to be used against religion I think. You believe in that, but are there not huge gaps in the evidence to support it? Does that automatically make it wrong? Because if gaps in evidence for evolution makes it wrong than the same must apply to religion. Now I'm not saying religion is wrong necessarily, but I don't think you can hold a double standard when arguing for or against evolution vs religion.

Now please don't take any of this personal at all. This thread is meant for this discussion and we're bound to question things that many of us have strong feeling about. I mean no offense, but I will question anything that I think needs to be questioned.

 

[OCybrManO]

If you weren't trying to offend anybody, you wouldn't have said/wrote it. I will refer you to a modified Neutrinos post.

"I'm not trying to dissuad you from believing in whatever, but unless your prepared to really research and offer a logical argument I don't think it's wise to critique the bible in this matter about anything. Not saying you can't question it, but I would just suggest you try to fully understand it before doing so."

First, since when does expressing a dissenting opinion equate to trying to offend people? I'm sure Galileo was just trying to piss off the religious people by saying that the Sun was the center of the solar system...

... and that "fully understand it before doing so" is a huge loophole that lets you refute any non-believer by claiming that they don't "fully understand" the Bible. I would think that you should "fully understand" something before you no longer question it. If one part is proven to be blatantly false it is hard to say that they rest is the "gospel truth." Therefore, you should research all facets of the Bible before putting your trust into it... unless you just want to believe in God "just in case."

IMO, anything else seems illogical.

 

[mchammer75040]

If you weren't trying to offend anybody, you wouldn't have said/wrote it. I will refer you to a modified Neutrinos post.

If I wanted to offend any religious person in my posts trust me I would , but I didnt. All I did was express my opinion. if you got offended by my post, which I dont see how you could have, then for the sake of not starting a flame war with you and being mature about it-Im sorry.

"I'm not trying to dissuad you from believing in whatever, but unless your prepared to really research and offer a logical argument I don't think it's wise to critique the bible in this matter about anything. Not saying you can't question it, but I would just suggest you try to fully understand it before doing so."

Oh but I have, I was a devoted christian for a number of years and have read the bible afew times through, Im also familar with alot theology arguments. If you have any counter arguments against anything I said then present them and we can debate.

 

[blahblahblah]

... and that "fully understand it before doing so" is a huge loophole that lets you refute any non-believer by claiming that they don't "fully understand" the Bible. I would think that you should "fully understand" something before you no longer question it. If one part is proven to be blatantly false it is hard to say that they rest is the "gospel truth." Therefore, you should research all facets of the Bible before putting your trust into it... unless you just want to believe in God "just in case."

IMO, anything else seems illogical.

Lol, that was a quote from Neutrino and I just modified several words. Notice you did not critique the near identical quote when Neutrino posted it. Not to mock you OCybrManO, but you can easily flip what you wrote against evolution or any other discussion. In fact, your post is more of a template than anything else.

~~

Neutrino - The biggest problem with a thread of this type is that I do invest an emotional interest. It is impossible for me not too. Imagine me critiquing/discussing something you believe in deeply (there has to be something). You would have an emotional interest and take any perceived threat (regardless of nature) as an attack. It is human nature, look in any sociology or psychology book. I do disagree with you on numerous points, but I don't have the time or energy (stupid finals) to argue with you. All I can say to you, is try looking at my beliefs from my perspective. I know it is hard. I can't quite understand why you personally don't belief in God, but I try to see things from your perspective. It opens up your mind.

I think the best thing based off of my beliefs is to walk away. I shouldn't be adding "gas" to the fire for no good reason. As good as your intentions are, you are not trying to understand my positions so I am fighting a meanless fight. By me fighting, I would be reinforcing the stereotypes about people who have faith in the bible.

No hard feelings. :thumbs:

 

[Neutrino]

Lol, that was a quote from Neutrino and I just modified several words. Notice you did not critique the near identical quote when Neutrino posted it. Not to mock you OCybrManO, but you can easily flip what you wrote against evolution or any other discussion. In fact, your post is more of a template than anything else.

~~

Neutrino - The biggest problem with a thread of this type is that I do invest an emotional interest. It is impossible for me not too. Imagine me critiquing/discussing something you believe in deeply (there has to be something). You would have an emotional interest and take any perceived threat (regardless of nature) as an attack. It is human nature, look in any sociology or psychology book. I do disagree with you on numerous points, but I don't have the time or energy (stupid finals) to argue with you. All I can say to you, is try looking at my beliefs from my perspective. I know it is hard. I can't quite understand why you personally don't belief in God, but I try to see things from your perspective. It opens up your mind.

I think the best thing based off of my beliefs is to walk away. I shouldn't be adding "gas" to the fire for no good reason. As good as your intentions are, you are not trying to understand my positions so I am fighting a meanless fight. By me fighting, I would be reinforcing the stereotypes about people who have faith in the bible.

No hard feelings. :thumbs:

Oh definitely no hard feelings. But I think you misunderstood my earlier statements about not having beliefs. I do have some rather strong opinions about these issues, so sure there's an emotional element. It might not be as strong as your emotional attachment to religion, but it's there. But as for believing in something deeply? Nope. I try not too. I've personally found that if I let myself believe in something deeply than it can later blind me from realizing I might not be right as it's very hard to let go of attachments like that. I'm not criticizing your own beliefs, just stating how it is for me.

The one thing I really need to comment on is that I think I am in fact trying to understand your perspective. I'm also perfectly willing to concede that religion is correct if the evidence ever supports it. That's what I mean by I have no beliefs. If I'm proven wrong I'm more than happy to change the way I think, even if it might not be easy. But you have to understand that I see no reason to accept anything on faith. That's just not the way the world works for me. If I see that something appears to be reasonbly true than I'll accept it for the time being, but if I see no evidence for something I see no reason to accept it. Sure I'll study it (as I mentioned I am studying the Bible) but I just can't see the point in believing in it without reasonable proof.

So I guess I'm just trying to say that I do try to understand your beliefs and will most definitely concede that there's always the possibility that there is a god that exists. But as much as I try I truly cannot understand faith. It just has no meaning for me. Perhaps it's similar to you not really being able to understand how I don't believe in God. But even though I don't understand, I still do try and see it from your point of view.

 

[PvtRyan]

Picking apart Evolution V.01

1) It has never been observed of life coming from non-living matter. Law of Biogenesis
2) Random genetic mutation has never been shown to provide beneficial effects.
3) Fossil Gaps, no discussion needed.
4) Amino Acids (basic building blocks of life) could not have existed before life. Evolutionary theory dictates that life created an atmosphere which blocks the majority of UV radiation. With no atmosphere, UV radiation should have destroyed amino acids.
5) Amino Acids do not naturally link up to form proteins. No adequate energy source could have provided the necessary energy to create proteins without destroying it first.
7) If evolution did happen, where are 2, 3, 4, 5 celled animal life? 1 and 6 cell animal life exists. Evolutions suggests that there should be 2, 3, 4 ,5 celled life.

1) No, but then again, the theory of biological evolution doesn't include abiogenesis. It does NOT dictate the way live started, for all it cares, God created life. Evolution only describes the way it developed. Though speciation (the forming of species) has been observed with simple lifeforms (with complex life the change is just too slow to observe)
2) /me pokes HIV. There have been loads and loads of experiments and observations with adaptation to their environment due to mutation.
But point mutations are generally not the only way that DNA/RNA changes. This is so much more complex than the way you describe it.
3) It's kind of funny that creationists use the gaps in the fossil record as an argument when it's beneficial to them. But places where there are no gaps, the records are totally in conflict with anything the Bible suggests. There's no explanation in any religion that can explain the fossil record.
It shows a slow progression to more complex creatures, especially in times after a major disaster when the selection pressure is the highest.
Furthermore, the theory does not suggest that there should be transitional fossils between every new species. Fossilization is too rare for all transitional species to fossilize.
4) Actually, in water, UV radiation can form amino acids when there's the right substances (carbon, nitrogen etc) available.
5) In simulated conditions, like how the earth was back then (so without advanced technology), there was formation of self replicating proteins out of basic amino acids.
6/7) I don't know anything about this. But isn't it like saying, 'there are animals with 2 legs and 4 legs, but why aren't there any with 1, 3, 5 or 6 legs?'. Maybe it just isn't functional.

Read some stuff on www.talkorigins.org. Clears up a whole lot of myths.

 

[OCybrManO]

Lol, that was a quote from Neutrino and I just modified several words. Notice you did not critique the near identical quote when Neutrino posted it.

So, sue me. It's not like I live on these forums.

Not to mock you OCybrManO, but you can easily flip what you wrote against evolution or any other discussion. In fact, your post is more of a template than anything else.

Did I make any statements about supporting any subject? No. All I said was that you shouldn't base your life around something you don't understand.

I don't have any beliefs either for or against evolution because it doesn't change my life and I am not interested in it... but from what I know of other fields of science it sounds like it could have happened. Whether it is true or not has no effect on me. I also don't follow the word of the Bible because all we know is that it was written by humans, there is a lot of contradiction, and some parts are just blatantly false. Though creation could have happened. Either way, creation or the lack thereof is probably too abstract for us to visualize... much less prove to someone else.

Please, tell me how you can "flip" my words (which happened to use religion as an example) against something that I never actually said I believed in. I don't have any set beliefs on the topic of religion/creation/evolution/etc (I just don't know enough... and I probably never will), but I do try to make people think about their beliefs.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

people, let's keep to the subject. evolution/creationism is not the topic at hand, it's about religion being necessary today and the existence of god(s). in my first post i presented my stance on the existence of god(s). it's a personal stance that's easy to take because i know what i've experienced. also, my experiences have been entirely rational within a frame of reference that does not include gods. my experiences are also consistent with a reality that does include gods who don't make themselves manifest at all. this is where agnosticism comes from. it's not "like communism" (this is in the running for the worst analogy i've ever heard..), it's logical. i can't say beyond a shadow of a doubt that gods don't exist, nor can i say beyond a shadow of a doubt that invisible pixies from mars control the workings of the universe. on both subjects, i'd call myself an agnostic, until evidence for or against either case comes to the surface. agonsticism is great in practice for me.

so for me personally, neither religion nor spirituality serve a purpose. the question as to whether they are necessary in today's world. well, it can't be shown that they were ever necessary to man. but specifically in todays world of complex nation-states we have had some examples of atheistic societies (china, cuba, cccp, etc.). i am not particualrly knowledgable about the politcs of religion in communist societies, but i will say that the few communist societies that have existed haven't completely collapsed in heretical chaos. and for every example of a "bad" communist society (n. korea), there are countless examples of "bad" religious societies.

it's a question of the needs of humans as a whole. but one can really only guess at it. i've known people who i don't think could get along in the world if they didn't believe in a divinity. but humanity as a whole i don't think would suffer without public religions nor personal spiritualities much. but again, it's hard to say, i wish we could test it

 

[Voodoo_Chile]

I suppose It'd be best for me to post my beliefs and then get into the discussion.

I believe there is a god.I dont believe he is an all powerful entity that simple thinks stuff to happen.I believe that through skillful manipulation of the surronding so-called "miracles" can be simple natural phenomenon that said being uses to get his/her point across.I'll use this example I saw on the discovery channel:

Moses's plague of Darkness on Eygpt coincided with a massive eruption of a volcano on an island in the Mediteranean sea.This Island was subsequently destroyed by tremors and earthquakes and the Volcanic ash which spewed into the air would possible have floted over Eygpt obscureing the sun.

Why do I believe there is a god when I have no proof.Simply that little tingly sensation you get before being compelled to move a step to the right before some sort of anvil hits u on the head.I cant explain it but I have it,too many strange things happen in my family to make me believe that I would not have some sort of incling.

HOWEVER I dispise organised religon in every form (Maybe not Buddhism) for the simple reason that it has done nothing for us.

Now for the topic.Get your own beliefs,believe them and use them in whatever way you see fit to get you through this life (I didnt mention that im a firm believer in the afterlife but it aint related to this thread).Enjoy it dont let anything hassle you and if you need an assistence then Religon has helped people.If you cant find your own beliefs choose one that you like,research it accept its past and present and mould its future.

Ok Im done.

EDIT:ARGG I wish I hadnt made that last paragraph sound like a self help guide.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

I dispise organised religon ... for the simple reason that it has done nothing for us.
....
if you need an assistence then Religon has helped people.

umm.. consistency?

 

[Voodoo_Chile]

Simply giving people options i might not like them (My one main beef was the "special postion" the Catholic Church Had in Ireland from 1947 to like 1976) but it doesnt mean they havent been good for some.Also I did say that I didnt like that last paragraph,too preachy,Sounded almost like a religon

 

[Jackal hit]

This is not the topic at hand, so please do not spam this thread with nonsense.

actually, it could very well have everything to do with god and religion. or, actually just religion. let's say there are alien civilizations, which ... not at ALL far fetched. how many biblical myths would be overturned? i think a great many. if the biblical stories happened these days, we'd look at them under a scientific light and try to understand them that way. adam and eve, eve springing from adam's "rib"... hell what if that's just genetics? you have to look at bible stories under the context of the people's understandings of those times. there's NO WAY that anyone back then would understand flight(ascending on a chariot of fire), or adam's rib(genetics), etc. btw, another reason to discount anything from the bible as factual historical info... what the hell happened to lilith? god's first female? ... sure, eve was willing to be suplicant to adam, being made from him, and secondary to him. lilith was made the same way adam was and wanted to be strong and independent... eve was the one to turn to "evil" by convincing adam to take a bite from the tree of knowledge(which wasn't originally an apple.... it was... something else, i had heard... some kind of african fruit originally, but turned into an apple later on.. or something heh) ... but can't anyone else see the immense chauvanism in just the garden of eden. i'm sure for the bible scholars out there, this is falling on deaf ears, or you'll call me out on something by quoting a passage from the bible and saying "no you're ignorant, that's ignorant." bblah blah blah. anyways... i think the bible and, from this, christianity... hell not only christianity. ...i see almost all religions as a form of control over the populace, most especially the big three western religions, judaism, islam, and christianity. on the subject of the big three western religions... i grew up in a split christian/muslim household. so i ended up learning a bit of the two (mother turkish, father american), and by the time i was 4 or so, i realized that both religions are shades of the same exact thing. as i learned more about the world around me, i started realizing that the god described in the bible and in the kuran(or qur'an if you prefer) is a neurotic jealous self serving god (believe in me or i'll send you to hell).

that being said, however, i think religion in today's society is necessary still. there are many people who haven't the ability to believe in themselves, so they look to an external source and find comfort there. i think this is a good thing. also, the basic teachings of all religions are useful and honorable.

HOWEVER, i still think religions and to a greater extent, a misunderstanding of god/life/death/existance, are the cause of almost every problem in the world. war/power/money/politicians/big business, etc... can all be linked to a few fundamental blindnesses on the part of those in power.

now, with all this "blasphemey" on my part... i definitely do believe in god. and i'd go so far as to say i have come to understand my relationship/friendship with god. often times when i'm curious about something, or feel downtrodden, lost, or require guidance... i will talk to god, and in return within a week usually, an answer will present itself somehow, and things will turn out better that i had hoped. call me a psycho, call me what you will, but those of you who know what i'm talking about can understand and that's all that matters. sorry if i've not followed the rules of the thread.

-Jackal hit

edit: for those who get offended, please think on what it is offending you. remember, you wouldn't be offended if you -- whatever nevermind.

 

[Lucifer Crass]

I would really love some support from a religious point of view.

Such as, provide links to disputed scientific theorys, or paranormal activity which is not fully explained by science. You know, ghosts and stuff. *HINT*I would use this to support angles or sightings of angles. *HINT*

Keep it up guys you are doing a fine job.

Lolz @ jackal's post

 

[Lil' Timmy]

I would really love some support from a religious point of view.

Such as, provide links to disputed scientific theorys, or paranormal activity which is not fully explained by science. You know, ghosts and stuff. *HINT*I would use this to support angles or sightings of angles. *HINT*

Keep it up guys you are doing a fine job.

it's angels, not angles, coolio. i have no problem with angles, i used them all through geometry

but you're going to run into a problem coolio. the simple fact is that supernatural events lack supporting empirical evidence. sightings/feelings of ghosts, angels, god, etc. are entirely anecdotal. and any links to dispute scientific theory are most likely going to be creationist websites. do you reqally want another evolution/creatioh debate?

 

[A2597]

HOWEVER, i still think religions and to a greater extent, a misunderstanding of god/life/death/existance, are the cause of almost every problem in the world. war/power/money/politicians/big business, etc... can all be linked to a few fundamental blindnesses on the part of those in power.

Every problem in the world?!

war: Aside from the crusades, and most of the wars involving islamic nations, name ONE war that was caused by religion.

Power? 99% of religions praise a humble lifestyle, and state quite clearly that there is a HIGHER power then us, and that ALL MAN IS EQUAL, so nope again.

money? Please tell, how the dickens did RELIGION cause money to be made?

Politicians?!? Explain your logic, please.

big buisness?!? Unless you count the Catholic church as a buisness, religion isn't very profitable, and certainly can't be said to be the cause of big buisness...thats rediculous...

 

[Lucifer Crass]

it's angels, not angles, coolio. i have no problem with angles, i used them all through geometry

but you're going to run into a problem coolio. the simple fact is that supernatural events lack supporting empirical evidence. sightings/feelings of ghosts, angels, god, etc. are entirely anecdotal. and any links to dispute scientific theory are most likely going to be creationist websites. do you reqally want another evolution/creatioh debate?

I was hopeing for u to talk dirty to me because it makes me hot :naughty:

JUST KIDDING!!

Angles Angels, whatever simple mistype on my part. I still think you could use ghosts to support angel sightings. Doesnt have to be way back when always.
Just a suggestion

why? Science agrees there are ghost type creatures. They measure its pressence with some electrometer or some such device. Science cannot explain these yet. Thus, I would use that to support those who (in current times or not) have seen angels etc etc.
:cheers:

 

[Lil' Timmy]

I still think you could use ghosts to support angel sightings. Doesnt have to be way back when always. Just a suggestion

it's $5.95 a minute if you want me to talk dirty.

anyway, i still don't understand what you want poeple to do with ghost 'sightings'. why don't you tell us? be it angels or ghosts or aliens or a black republican, any "evidence" you get will be either an anecdotal story, or a grainy picture of the lochness monster.. so again, if you know of some definitive evidence, tell us about it.

EDIT: ok, i read your edit.. where you put "science" i'd encourage you to put 'pseudo-science'.

 

[Lucifer Crass]

http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa103100a.htm

Call you later baby

I AM SOOOOOO NOT GAY!!! I DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH GAY PEOPLE. BUT I AM JUST SAYING I AM NOT!!! OKAY?! OKAY!!