Religion and Common Sense

[Lil' Timmy]

Every problem in the world?!

i'm going to have to agree with a2597 here. the cause of "problems" in the world is a complex issue, and if anything religion is more a symptom than a cause. on a most basic and simplistic level, 'inequity' is the cause of the "problems" you listed (many of those problems could be called causes in and of themselves). has religion contributed to inequity in the world? certainly, but so have many things. religion as a characteristic of humanity is pervasive. it's summ effect on the state of the world is next to impossible to discern.

anyway, the question of causes and effects for the ills of the world is extremely complex and is riddled with feedback loops and conundrums.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa103100a.htm

Call you later baby

I AM SOOOOOO NOT GAY!!! I DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH GAY PEOPLE. BUT I AM JUST SAYING I AM NOT!!! OKAY?! OKAY!!

uh huh.. right.

anyway, how many ghosts have they caught with that thing????? :/

 

[mchammer75040]

adam and eve, eve springing from adam's "rib"... hell what if that's just genetics? .

Where are you goin with this dear? Are you saying that provides a explanation to men havin one more rib then women? Please say no. :rolling:

HOWEVER, i still think religions and to a greater extent, a misunderstanding of god/life/death/existance, are the cause of almost every problem in the world. war/power/money/politicians/big business, etc... can all be linked to a few fundamental blindnesses on the part of those in power.

Every problem? I can agree on some problems, for example the catholic church sure as hell isnt helping with the AIDs problem in Africa. Then you've got people like Pat Roberston( :rolling: ). But I dont see where you get off on almost every problem in the world.

 

[Lucifer Crass]

uh huh.. right.

anyway, how many ghosts have they caught with that thing????? :/

dunno, but I really am not part of this discussion. I was hopeing a religious sympathizer was going to do it.

 

[mchammer75040]

uh huh.. right.

anyway, how many ghosts have they caught with that thing????? :/

Jesus lil timmy your so ignorant. There was a documentation in the 80s/90s of a team of goofy scientists defeating big marshmellow ghosts, isnt that prove enough? Do we really need to go any further?

 

[Lil' Timmy]

i won't be satisfied until we all have our own ghost servants that must do our bidding. i want mine to be a hot lady-ghost that dresses in a ghastly gossamer french maid outfit. and she has an exagerated parisen accent. she'll have huge knockers, and be on the submissive side, usually, except when.. whoa! um, what? um no.. uhh... nevermind.

 

[Lucifer Crass]

ANYWAY. God existance or lack there of.
Serious time again!

 

[Prince of China]

Religion->Ghost->Female Ghost servants...=SPAM!
I think we've de-railed this topic!!!

 

[Neutrino]

Where are you goin with this dear? Are you saying that provides a explanation to men havin one more rib then women? Please say no. :rolling:

Not sure if you actually meant this or not, but men don't have one less rib than women. They have the same number of ribs.

 

[mchammer75040]

Not sure if you actually meant this or not, but men don't have one more rib than women. They have the same number of ribs.

Yes love, thats what I was trying to say, that we both have the same number of ribs. But it looked as if he was using it to say that we didnt.

ANYWAY. God existance or lack there of.
Serious time again!

Get back on topic?? If you drag ghosts into this the thread its gonna go wayyy off-topic and become "do ghosts exist or not".

 

[Lucifer Crass]

Yes love, thats what I was trying to say, that we both have the same number of ribs. But it looked as if he was using it to say that we didnt.


Get back on topic?? If you drag ghosts into this the thread its gonna go wayyy off-topic and become "do ghosts exist or not".

Ghosts to prove angels to prove X to prove Y = God exists. Not that off topic.

 

[mchammer75040]

Ghosts to prove angels to prove X to prove Y = God exists. Not that off topic.

Its not THAT off topic true, but watch we are gonna get into one big debate over whether ghosts exist or not, and very little will be accomplished.
Personally I dont care how much evidence you bring to me Im gonna be an asshole and disagree with you :cheese:.

 

[Lucifer Crass]

Its not THAT off topic true, but watch we are gonna get into one big debate over whether ghosts exist or not, and very little will be accomplished.
Personally I dont care how much evidence you bring to me Im gonna be an asshole and disagree with you :cheese:.

Lolz, then lets all agree that air does not exist either since you cannot see it.

NO MORE OFF TOPIC SERIOUS THIS TIME!!

 

[Neutrino]

Lolz, then lets all agree that air does not exist either since you cannot see it.

NO MORE OFF TOPIC SERIOUS THIS TIME!!

I know your not being serious, but this is an interesting point. We know air exists because we can create repeatable experiments that demonstrate this fact.

But you can't do the same for ghosts. There just isn't any real evidence to support the idea that ghosts exist. There are are stories and one time blurry photos for the most part.

Would it really be that hard to consider that since there is practically no evidence they probably just don't exist at all? I just don't see why some people have this need to believe in supernatural things such as ghosts, ufo's, bigfoot, etc. Of course, keep an open mind, but why try so hard to believe in things that aren't supported by the evidence?

 

[GhostValkyrie]

uh huh.. right.

anyway, how many ghosts have they caught with that thing????? :/

Not this one.
Ha ha ha! :naughty:

 

[Lucifer Crass]

I know your not being serious, but this is an interesting point. We know air exists because we can create repeatable experiments that demonstrate this fact.

But you can't do the same for ghosts. There just isn't any real evidence to support the idea that ghosts exist. There are are stories and one time blurry photos for the most part.

Would it really be that hard to consider that since there is practically no evidence they probably just don't exist at all? I just don't see why some people have this need to believe in supernatural things such as ghosts, ufo's, bigfoot, etc. Of course, keep an open mind, but why try so hard to believe in things that aren't supported by the evidence?

So can we consider you an agnostic or athiest at this point. Just to make clear where you stand.

 

[Neutrino]

So can we consider you an agnostic or athiest at this point. Just to make clear where you stand.

Not quite sure why it's all that important, but I'm an agnostic. For most intents and purposes I am pretty much atheist. I don't think that there is a god or anything supernatural as I see no real evidence to support such a view. But, I'm still agnostic because I'll keep an open mind. I'm not saying that none of those things absolutely don't exist, I just think it is highly unlikely.

But if you show reasonable evidence for anything, I'm more than willing to consider it's existence on the merits of that evidence.

 

[Asus]

People won't turn to God based on proof.
He won't say "Hey, I am here". Don't wait for that as you'd be waiting til the end of our existance on earth.
He uses examples or testimonies to lead those to Him.

God does not want to be proven to exist.
He wants you to believe in Him, taking that leap of faith.
He does live and is waiting for that time.

There are signs eveywhere that God exists. How do math formulas and science seem to workout and fit so well? How do humans and everything else function so perfect and seemlessly since life was supposedly just a random happening and then growth (evolution)?
There are a few things out there that have been discovered. You do know carbon dating is a poor measure as it looses it's effectivness after a few hundred years? Look it up. Update* Link
But these are not the reasons to believe in God.

He created us and everything around. Only through Jesus can we enter heaven as He died on the cross. He didn't have to die but He did because he wanted to pave the way for sinners that believe in Him. He is the only one to die and rise never to die again (The Bible has accounts of people being risen from death by Jesus).

God brings hope, peace and control to our lives. A christian is not just someone who 'believes' that He exists but believes IN Him. Walks the path He wants you to. I always say He should be number one on your list of priorities. He doesn't take up space but rather applies Himself to everything else on that list and how you live. Few things that are important are controling yourself, resisting temtations and knowing accountability. Do you race up that mountain looking over the edge or as close as you can against the side?

The one difference that stands out between Christianity vs any other religion is Jesus dying on the cross for our sins. There are many accounts of this event from the Romans, literature (besides the Bible) and hundreds of eye witness of the time.

This is my stance and why I believe what I do.
I'd rather not comment any further in this thread.

 

[blahblahblah]

People won't turn to God based on proof.
He won't say "Hey, I am here". Don't wait for that as you'd be waiting til the end of our existance on earth.
He uses examples or testimonies to lead those to Him.

God does not want to be proven to exist.
He wants you to believe in Him, taking that leap of faith.
He does live and is waiting for that time.

There are signs eveywhere that God exists. How do math formulas and science seem to workout and fit so well? How do humans and everything else function so perfect and seemlessly since life was supposedly just a random happening and then growth (evolution)?
There are a few things out there that have been discovered. You do know carbon dating is a poor measure as it looses it's effectivness after a few hundred years? Look it up. Update* Link
But these are not the reasons to believe in God.

He created us and everything around. Only through Jesus can we enter heaven as He died on the cross. He didn't have to die but He did because he wanted to pave the way for sinners that believe in Him. He is the only one to die and rise never to die again (The Bible has accounts of people being risen from death by Jesus).

God brings hope, peace and control to our lives. A christian is not just someone who 'believes' that He exists but believes IN Him. Walks the path He wants you to. I always say He should be number one on your list of priorities. He doesn't take up space but rather applies Himself to everything else on that list and how you live. Few things that are important are controling yourself, resisting temtations and knowing accountability. Do you race up that mountain looking over the edge or as close as you can against the side?

The one difference that stands out between Christianity vs any other religion is Jesus dying on the cross for our sins. There are many accounts of this event from the Romans, literature (besides the Bible) and hundreds of eye witness of the time.

This is my stance and why I believe what I do.
I'd rather not comment any further in this thread.

Couldn't have said it better if I tried. :thumbs:

 

[Jackal hit]

i stated religion as a reason for being a source of problems for everything in the world in more of a sense that religions, i think keep us from greater spiritual understandings. (i guess i was a bit vague there, eh? kinda have to read more into what i'm saying and not just the surface levels of what i'm saying) i think with a true spiritual understanding of life and existance, there wouldn't be problems of war, money, greed, power etc. THAT'S what i'm saying. note: i said "and to a GREATER EXTENT a MISUNDERSTANDING..." ...anyways, no i never said anything about adams rib as a thing about counting ribs. i didn't even insinuate that heh... i merely said, that that mythology, COULD BE A metaphor for genetics. and the reason i brought THAT up is because i wanted to show that people during that period were not versed in science, and everything unexplainable would be of a mystical nature by definition. hell, just fly an airplane over the heads of mid 19th century citizens anywhere in the world, and land it and step out of it, people may think you're some kind of angel. and this is 19th century. what if we did that 2000 years ago. i'm just saying(if you go back and read my first post), that these mystical bible stories could easily be viewed from a scientific angle and they'd not be so mysterious, therefore i think a lot of things in the bible are metaphorical.


now, ... eh nevermind i'[m at school and i wanna go home. i can't write more because someone is bouncing on my lap. and it's mildly distracting. r0x0r my b0x0rz. :dork:

 

[Lil' Timmy]

There are signs eveywhere that God exists. How do math formulas and science seem to workout and fit so well? How do humans and everything else function so perfect and seemlessly since life was supposedly just a random happening and then growth (evolution)?

"perfection" again.. could someone (not asus, since he's recused himself from futher comment) please explain to me this obsession some people seem to have with "perfection"? i just don't get it. perfection is just an abstract concept. it's not a definable quality or measurable quantity is it? is an apple perfect? how about "2+2=4", is that perfect? in what way? could someone please demonstrate the perfection of any single idea or thing?

There are a few things out there that have been discovered. You do know carbon dating is a poor measure as it looses it's effectivness after a few hundred years? Look it up. Update* Link

radiometric dating techniques are good for dating to about 5-6 half-lives. in the case of 14C, that time is about 30,000 years. the link provided is a google search that brings up pages based on the writings of kent hovind, a well-known creationist and young-earth proponent. a thorough refutation of all of hovind's ideas can be found at talkorigins.

just an fyi.

 

[Neutrino]

Hey there, welcome to the conversation.

People won't turn to God based on proof.
He won't say "Hey, I am here". Don't wait for that as you'd be waiting til the end of our existance on earth.
He uses examples or testimonies to lead those to him.

God does not want to be proven to exist.
He wants you to believe in him, taking that leap of faith.
He does live and is waiting for that time.

Why? Why does he need me to have blind faith? I just don't see why such a being would have this requirement.

There are signs eveywhere that God exists. How do math formulas and science seem to workout and fit so well?

Because math is a self consistent system that has been shaped by us. It is a purely artificial construct that has purposefully been made to be consistent. It may seem amazing at first, but if you think about it, it has to be self consistent. To better understand this think of units. Things like meters, kilograms, and seconds, don't mean anything, they were created to only to make the system work.

How do humans and everything else function so perfect and seemlessly since life was supposedly just a random happening and then growth (evolution)?

Whoa, you have a much different definition of perfection than I have. I don't consider a world perfect where millions starve to death, children commit suicide, wars are a constant issue, and we are trashing the environment. I can't even understand how you can begin to argue about perfection.

There are a few things out there that have been discovered. You do know carbon dating is a poor measure as it looses it's effectivness after a few hundred years? Look it up.

Even if I conceded that perhaps carbon dating is imperfect that doesn't really mean much as there is plenty of independent collaboration between dating techniques.

But these are not the reasons to believe in God.

He created us and everything around. Only through Jesus can we enter heaven as he died on the cross. He didn't have to die but he did because he wanted to pave the way for sinners that believe in him. He is the only one to die and rise never to die again (The Bible has accounts of people being risen from death by Jesus).

I won't really go into this, but I have a difficult time believing anything from the bible because of serious concerns I have with it. (See my previous posts if you care to).

God brings hope, peace and control to our lives. A christian is not just someone who 'believes' that he exists but believes IN him. Walks the path he wants you to. I always say He should be number one on your list of priorities. He doesn't take up space but rather applies himself to everything else on that list and how you live. Few things that are important are controling yourself, resisting temtations and knowing accountability. Do you race up that mountain looking over the edge or as close as you can against the side?

I'd rather not comment any further in this thread.

Well, I have no problem with you seeing things this way. But since we're having a discussion about it, I don't really understand why you don't care to comment further? Everyone is being nice in here and none of us wish to offend each other. So why not join in and try to let us better understand your views? That is of course your prerogative to stay out of it if you wish, I just don't understand why you wish to do so.

 

[FortisVir]

Ahh....religious discussions, is there anything more stimulating?

To me, there are two areas when debating creationism/organized religion - the scientific and the philosophical. Sure they may blend a little bit, but for the most part they are pretty distinct. Instead of concentrating on the scientific like I did in the last topic (which reached a 35 pages, if anyone remembers), I would like to discuss the philosophical, metaphysics, whatever you want to call it.

First, I just want to point to one of my favorite quotes thats in my sig -

"I have too much respect for the idea of God to make it responsible for such an absurd world." , Georges Duhamel.

Lets entertain the idea that there is an all powerful, all knowing, benevolent creator "up there" (or wherever).

It is my opinion, that making an all-powerful being responsible for this world, is an insult to the concept of "God". There are millions in the world who are suffering, yet I am supposed to believe that this "God" cares for us? If anything, I am entitled to agree with the Gnostic Manicheans, whose main idea was that the God who created this world is evil. Many middle class, well-off, certainly nice people like to think of this benovelent God.

For certainly, their life is good and God has blessed them, they just don't think about the people who are in pain. Or if they do, their pain is a caused by their non-acceptance of <insert religion here>. Ironically,in Christianity, it was the Gnostics, which literally means "to know" or "knowledge" that were wiped out by the orthodox Christians.

Now, there are hundreds of major religions in the world. How does the existence of these religions serve God? Not every religion can be correct its just not possible. Followers of Islam do not recognize Jesus as the messiah, and according to Dante, Mohammed lies in the eight circle of hell. Ouch. Now, I think that everyone can agree, that according to the major religions, its religion is the correct one. What I mean is, Christianity recognizes itself as the true religion of God, as does Islam of itself, etc. So, we can say, that if there is a God, some of these religions are in error, and their believers are doomed to punishment by God.

Why would an infallible being let these incorrect religions exist? Don't give me that "people have free will" bullplop. Lets say that Islam is the wrong religion and Christianity is the right one. I am not saying this is true just creating a scenario. Then, by Islam existing, members of the correct faith, Christianity, are suffering, and God's message is becoming corrupt. If God wants everyone to accept Him into their lives and be saved, then a religion that is in err is counter-productive to the "goal" of God.

Also, the idea of something as far from the idea of perfection as possible, the human being, being created in the image of God, is laughable. If God created humans in his image than I wouldn't let Him build me a spice rack. I would be more content if, artistically, God were represented as a sphere rather than a human being.

I'm not even going to get into the actual institutions of the established religions, the corruption, the fact that the teachings of someone such as Jesus becomes more skewed as time goes along. What Would Jesus Do if he came back to view the Church as it is today? An interesting question. Dostoevsky suggests that if Jesus were to come, he would be rejected by the Church. Afterall, he would interfere with its teachings.

There is one little story I want to discuss. This story follows a small boy. This boy has extraordinary powers. He can strike people dead and then resurrect them. In some instances he acts disrespectful towards his father, even superior. Did I mention this boy is Jesus? This is in the Gospel of Thomas, which was later thrown out, not to be added to the Bible. As a Christian, examine your religion with this in mind.

Lastly, I just want to say, that faith is illogical. Which is exactly what allows it to survive. One of my professors once took a course examining atheism. The instructor was a Jesuit priest. At the end of the course, my professor asked him how he could teach this course and still believe in God.

He replied with "We have faith so that we may understand. We don't understand to have faith".

Please excuse any typos or grammatical errors, I'm going to sleep now. Good night everyone .

 

[Asus]

I'd rather not comment any further in this thread.

I probably should add something.
Humans have limited understanding of the world and life so we create structure to give it something we can comprehend. Rather than looking for God who understands everything (he created this place anyway) we create our own understanding like measurement, equations, and science (theories etc).

I hear this a lot. "Why believe everything you were 'taught' by your church? Why not challenge that and think for yourself."

Well I say, Why not challenge your limited understanding and put faith in God since He is all knowing and is your creator?

It isn't something you are forced apon you each day. It's all choice but would be something pretty vital if you missed it.

Why does he need me to have blind faith? I just don't see why such a being would have this requirement.

The reason I wanted to limit myself from this thread is because it's somewhat pointless. God will not be proven to you because that is also pointless. Even if many knew he existed there are always those who would never follow Him.

 

[Neutrino]

Thanks for an interesting post on the subject fortisvir. It's interesting to here a purely philosophical perspective. I agree with you on a lot of points, except for one. If there is a god and he has granted us free will I would tend to think that it is complete free will. And if we truly have free will then perhaps that is why we are allowed to cause so much pain and suffering in the world. Just trying to play a bit of the devil's advocate.

That did make me think of a couple things though. First, I'd like to look at the issue of free will more closely. It seems to me that a lot of people teach and/or practice in a way that they are giving mixed messages about free will. For the sake of argument lets say there is a god (choose any you like, not picking on any one specific) and he has granted humanity free will. This makes some sense to me as perhaps this god wants the people to learn and mature by making their own decisions. But what I don't understand is prayer. If you have true free will granted to you by your god, then why would anyone pray for anything? Isn't this asking God to interfere in our lives in some way? If he interferes then isn't that limiting someone's free will? And how can he do that when the whole point about temptation, sin, and redemption rests on the fact that we have free will? I never understood that so if anyone in here would care to address the issue I'd find it quite interesting.

Also, since you brought up more of a philosophical approach, Fortisvir, it made me think of another point I was curious about and wanted to discuss. You see another thing about religion that has always puzzled me is how it is set up so people worship God and are then judged by him to either be good people or sinners. (I realize not all religions do this, I'm just talking about the one's that do.) See, that makes no sense whatsoever to me. If you really think about it consider that here is this all knowing, all powerful being who has created the universe and then populated this one little planet with us humans who by comparison are practically mere children in need of guidance. But what does this god do?

He gives this immature new race free will.
He hides himself from us and says we must accept his existance on faith.
He has us worship him.
He then judges us and either gives us everlasting life in heaven or condemns us to eternal damnation in hell.
(Please note this does not include all religions. These are just some of the aspects that I see as extreme and so am using to illustrate my point.)

Now continuing the parent/child analogy, or perhaps using a teacher/pupil one, does this seem like a logical way to treat a child or pupil who you've created and is just trying to learn how to live? To me it seems more like this God is playing with us in such a scenario. In a situation like this it seems like he is first trying to confuse us as to what is real and what is not, then wants us to accept him on this thing called "faith", proceeds to then judge us, and finally either reward or punish us based on whether we accepted him as our lord or not. Personally does not make much sense to me. It doesn't seem like a very good system for a god to use on something it created in the first place. So this entire aspect of some religions just doesn't make any sense to me. It doesn't seem to serve any real purpose to me. I don't see how it really teaches us anything, nor how it is beneficial to the God other than having a small race of beings worship him.

Just my own take on a couple points.

 

[Neutrino]

The reason I wanted to limit myself from this thread is because it's somewhat pointless. God will not be proven to you because that is also pointless. Even if many knew he existed there are always those who would never follow Him.

See, this just seems way to "neat" of an argument to me. Ok, so I have to acccept God on faith alone. Not only can his existence not be proven but it is pointless to do so as that invalidates the whole concept of faith right?

To me it just seems like a really nice way for religions to make sure they can't be questioned.

Well I say, Why not challenge your limited understanding and put faith in God since He is all knowing and is your creator?

But that doesn't make sense to me. You say I should challenge my understanding of things, but then go on to not challenge the existence of God. If I should challenge one thing why not the other?

 

[mchammer75040]

He wants you to believe in Him, taking that leap of faith.

I can say that for any religion I want to, taking a leap of faith is useless no better than drawing a number out of a hat. If every religion tells me to except religion on blind faith how am I to know which one is right? The only way to know is observable evidence, which there is none.

He created us and everything around. Only through Jesus can we enter heaven as He died on the cross. He didn't have to die but He did because he wanted to pave the way for sinners that believe in Him. He is the only one to die and rise never to die again (The Bible has accounts of people being risen from death by Jesus)

Tisk tisk. I can say this same thing for every other religion, taking a religious belief and trying to use it as religious evidence is a good attempt, but doesnt do anything for supporting your religion

The one difference that stands out between Christianity vs any other religion is Jesus dying on the cross for our sins. There are many accounts of this event from the Romans, literature (besides the Bible) and hundreds of eye witness of the time.

Again your taking a religious belief and trying to use it as religious evidence. Furthermore written stories of Jesus didnt pop up til 20-40 years after his death, this leaves plenty of room for him to be embellished. In other words we have no evidence for him saying or doing anything that the Bible says he does.

 

[Jackal hit]

Why? Why does he need me to have blind faith? I just don't see why such a being would have this requirement.

this is the root of the problems i find in western religion. true omniscience and omnipotence and omnipresence means having NO requirements. requiring someone to believe in you is tyrannical and neurotic. no ALL LOVING and all forgiving god would ever require anything of anyone. therefore, i choose not to believe in the god of religions, but a god greater and grander than religions would allow(else they lose their power). btw, has anyone ever heard of the Escene Gospels? haven't read them, and i'll formulate my own opinion of them when i do read them, i'm just curious what you all think(an art teacher of mine brought this up when i was making an uber subversive video about religion ).

 

[mchammer75040]

...anyways, no i never said anything about adams rib as a thing about counting ribs. i didn't even insinuate that heh... i merely said, that that mythology, COULD BE A metaphor for genetics. :

Sorry I jumped the gun, I have a habit of doing that.

...now, ... eh nevermind i'[m at school and i wanna go home. i can't write more because someone is bouncing on my lap. and it's mildly distracting. r0x0r my b0x0rz. :dork:

:O

 

[blahblahblah]

There is one little story I want to discuss. This story follows a small boy. This boy has extraordinary powers. He can strike people dead and then resurrect them. In some instances he acts disrespectful towards his father, even superior. Did I mention this boy is Jesus? This is in the Gospel of Thomas, which was later thrown out, not to be added to the Bible. As a Christian, examine your religion with this in mind.

I feel I need to clear up just this one point. The Bible is historically accurate in terms of geographic location, cultural nuances, and other things. Regardless of your beliefs, the bible can be used as a historical source. Instance's like what you mentioned above most likely have been disproved on the basis of historical inaccuracies. By comparing the Bible to a potential account of Jesus, you can determine if that document is a forgery or is the real deal. In this case, I would assume that was a forgery, not a true historical account since it was not included in the Bible.

 

[Neutrino]

I feel I need to clear up just this one point. The Bible is historically accurate in terms of geographic location, cultural nuances, and other things. Regardless of your beliefs, the bible can be used as a historical source. Instance's like what you mentioned above most likely have been disproved on the basis of historical inaccuracies. By comparing the Bible to a potential account of Jesus, you can determine if that document is a forgery or is the real deal. In this case, I would assume that was a forgery, not a true historical account since it was not included in the Bible.

While there are some things in the bible that have historical evidence I disagree that all if even most of it is historically proven. I hardly think you can accuse something of being a forgery just because it was left out of the bible. If your going to use the "bible is totally accurate argument" your going to have to start to take into account everything that it says, including some of the less pleasent aspects of it.

Not saying you can't claim it is all accurate, but if you do then I think you need to address all the issues that it brings up. Also, if you'd care to I'd be very interested in what you have to say about the things I posted above about free will, prayer, and judgement. I'd like to get another perspective on it if I could.

 

[Dulrough]

Every problem in the world?!

war: Aside from the crusades, and most of the wars involving islamic nations, name ONE war that was caused by religion.

Power? 99% of religions praise a humble lifestyle, and state quite clearly that there is a HIGHER power then us, and that ALL MAN IS EQUAL, so nope again.

money? Please tell, how the dickens did RELIGION cause money to be made?

Politicians?!? Explain your logic, please.

big buisness?!? Unless you count the Catholic church as a buisness, religion isn't very profitable, and certainly can't be said to be the cause of big buisness...thats rediculous...

Heh, perhaps you should look up some history on the middle ages, the wars between tribal religions, ect. The curch had something to do with money, it could not support itself so it needed the support of surrounding people, sometimes their ability was not enough so money came to be ( thats one of the many reasons.) also look at the old churches, lots a gold and ornately carved stuff, so humble. As for big buisness I agree with you, thats a wild stab in the dark.

 

[Asus]

But what I don't understand is prayer.

You have complete free will but limited understanding and power unlike God.
People pray to talk to God, to talk like you talk to your friends/parents or anyone else except that he's God. They ask for strength to get through tough times, ask for forgiveness or thank him. Many things.

how it is set up so people worship God and are then judged by him to either be good people or sinners.

Satan promotes everything opposing God, which is Sin. Death is universal because sin is universal. Everyone sins. Sin is something that is foreign to God. It was not his creation. We were ment to follow him as that is how he created us originally.
Sin is powerful, controlling, temptation and rids us of our free will.
Paraphrasing:
Once Adam sinned, we all were filled with this 'poision'. We are prone to sin.
Only those who are clean are allowed into heaven which the way he created us originally.
When you truly and fully turn from sin and and to Christ, you empty that 'poision' and are filled with the spirit of Christ. Now that Christ lives within you, we are seen as clean at judgement since He is clean.
Sin was never his design/vision so of course he is going to block that from Heaven and all who are consumed with it.

Some people have raised the question that since they are a 'Christian' that they can continue to sin since they will be forgiven. They are deceving themselves because to truely turn to Christ you empty that 'poison' and are filled with the Spirit. Obviously they have not emptied that 'posion' until everything changes so they are deceving themselves. Just as they behaved when consumed with Sin, they follow Christ when filled with the Spirit. Of course there is a little poision left since everyone still sins but they are just not consumed with it. It's natural thing.
Think of it like this. Where a messy person lives, the house and yard is a mess...everything is in disarray. When a neat/clean person moves in, the house and yard is cleaned up and it is very obvious from the outside that someone else is now living there.

Is that enough to think about?
BTW I'm not trying to prove anything but just stating 'how it is'. What I believe. I am not denouncing anything you bring up.

There has to be faith. You will always be caught by the lack of your own understanding when trying to prove anything here. You don't know everything otherwise there wouldn't be this discussion. Hence the conundrum.

 

[blahblahblah]

While there are some things in the bible that have historical evidence I disagree that all if even most of it is historically proven. I hardly think you can accuse something of being a forgery just because it was left out of the bible. If your going to use the "bible" is totally accurate argument your going to have to start to take into account everything that it says, including some of the less pleasent aspects of it.

All of the locations, cultures and all of the major historical events (well the ones recognized by you) are historically accurate. If you would read my post, you would find out that the majority of these "so called" removed books of the bible are really forgeries. The do not match up to any historical texts. As such, they are not included in the Bible because they are deemed to be forgeries.

One of your most fundamental flaws about the bible is your assumption that everybody is perfect. The bible is more of a testament to show what sin does to people. The world is not perfect, which the bible shows and neither are Christians.

Like I said previously, I do not feel like replying to any more posts just because there are 5 plus people who dispute my beliefs while there is only one other person who has the same beliefs as me. That doesn't seem very fair does it? I am not blaming anybody for that, I am just saying its disenchanting when people take joy in trying to take apart something I believe in. I practically gaurantee that this post will be challenged by three different people. So, I will not reply to anything else in this thread, unless somebody wishes to understand my beliefs without unnecessary rebutting of my beliefs.

Peace

 

[Neutrino]

You have complete free will but limited understanding and power unlike God.
People pray to talk to God, to talk like you talk to your friends/parents or anyone else except that he's God. They ask for strength to get through tough times, ask for forgiveness or thank him. Many things.

But if you ask him for anything and he actually responds then he is interfering with your free will. For an example, consider someone who prays to God and asks for the rough times to get better. Or how about people praying for people who do not believe in God. What is the point? I understand if your just wanted to "talk" to him or something, but to actually ask for something is asking him to interfere in our lives and thus invalidate free will.

Satan promotes everything opposing God, which is Sin. Death is universal because sin is universal. Everyone sins. Sin is something that is foreign to God. It was not his creation. We were ment to follow him as that is how he created us originally.
Sin is powerful, controlling, temptation and rids us of our free will.
Paraphrasing:
Once Adam sinned, we all were filled with this 'poision'. We are prone to sin.
Only those who are clean are allowed into heaven which the way he created us originally.
When you truly and fully turn from sin and and to Christ, you empty that 'poision' and are filled with the spirit of Christ. Now that Christ lives within you, we are seen as clean at judgement since He is clean.
Sin was never his design/vision so of course he is going to block that from Heaven and all who are consumed with it.

Some people have raised the question that since they are a 'Christian' that they can continue to sin since they will be forgiven. They are deceving themselves because to truely turn to Christ you empty that 'poison' and are filled with the Spirit. Obviously they have not emptied that 'posion' until everything changes so they are deceving themselves. Just as they behaved when consumed with Sin, they follow Christ when filled with the Spirit. Of course there is a little poision left since everyone still sins but they are just not consumed with it. It's natural thing.
Think of it like this. Where a messy person lives, the house and yard is a mess...everything is in disarray. When a neat/clean person moves in, the house and yard is cleaned up and it is very obvious from the outside that someone else is now living there.

Your saying that there is something in the universe that exists which was not created by God? How do you justify this? I thought he supposedly is the Creator of everything. And so if this one thing can be created without him, why not lots of other things? Also, you didn't really address the issues that I was most concerned with about this specific thing. I was saying that the whole faith thing and then the ultimate judgement seemed more like god was playing with us. It does not seem to be a good way to teach a race that is just trying to learn. Also, what about the whole worship angle? Why does God feel it is necessary for us to worship him? Seems a bit egotistic to me.

Is that enough to think about?

Well it's some, and I appreciate your effort to try to put a different perspective on things for me.


BTW I'm not trying to prove anything but just stating 'how it is'. What I believe. I am not denouncing anything you bring up.

There has to be faith. You will always be caught by the lack of your own understanding when trying to prove anything here. You don't know everything otherwise there wouldn't be this discussion. Hence the conundrum.

Just one more thing. (Hehe...I'm sure your probably getting tired of me by now.....sorry) But you see this is exactly why I really don't understand your beliefs. I'm not saying your wrong, but I can't understand how you can "know" your right. Do you have no doubts about God or religion at all? Because you yourself admit that we can't know everything and we will always be "caught by our own lack of understanding." So unless you are as all knowing as this God himself, how can you be sure you know something is absolutely true?

 

[Neutrino]

All of the locations, cultures and all of the major historical events (well the ones recognized by you) are historically accurate. If you would read my post, you would find out that the majority of these "so called" removed books of the bible are really forgeries. The do not match up to any historical texts. As such, they are not included in the Bible because they are deemed to be forgeries.

One of your most fundamental flaws about the bible is your assumption that everybody is perfect. The bible is more of a testament to show what sin does to people. The world is not perfect, which the bible shows and neither are Christians.

Like I said previously, I do not feel like replying to any more posts just because there are 5 plus people who dispute my beliefs while there is only one other person who has the same beliefs as me. That doesn't seem very fair does it? I am not blaming anybody for that, I am just saying its disenchanting when people take joy in trying to take apart something I believe in. I practically gaurantee that this post will be challenged by three different people. So, I will not reply to anything else in this thread, unless somebody wishes to understand my beliefs without unnecessary rebutting of my beliefs.

Peace

Um, I'm perfectly willing to respect your beliefs, but your blowing things a bit out of proportion here. This is a topic that is specifically about the discussion of beliefs. Your the one who chose to post what you think. If other people disagree with you then how is that an "unecessary rebutting of your beliefs"? You can't expect to just post your opinion or beliefs without evidence and expect people to understand them. There are is more than one side to the discussion so the whole point is to discuss what someone says. That is why I respond to your posts and question what doesn't make logical sense to me. If you don't wish to be questioned at all I'm sorry. I thought it was alright since we were having a discussion about these issues.

 

[blahblahblah]

Um, I'm perfectly willing to respect your beliefs, but your blowing things a bit out of proportion here. This is a topic that is specifically about the discussion of beliefs. Your the one who chose to post what you think. If other people disagree with you then how is that an "unecessary rebutting of your beliefs"? You can't expect to just post your opinion or beliefs without evidence and expect people to understand them. There are is more than one side to the discussion so the whole point is to discuss what someone says. That is why I respond to your posts and question what doesn't make logical sense to me. If you don't wish to be questioned at all I'm sorry. I thought it was alright since we were having a discussion about these issues.

The problem isn't you neutrino.

What is one specific topic you would like to discuss then? This scattering of topics is not benefiting anybody.

 

[Neutrino]

The problem isn't you neutrino.

What is one specific topic you would like to discuss then? This scattering of topics is not benefiting anybody.

Ok, thanks for explaining further. I agree it is a bit hard to keep track of everything. Well let's see. It's hard to just choose one issue to discuss, but I suppose we must start somewhere. Alright, my question to you is do you think that you are absolutely right in believing in your God? You have no doubts about his existence, is that correct?

So I have two questions which I truly do not understand the answers to.

One, how do you know you are "right"? What makes you right and another person wrong? I understand if you think your right, but I really don't get how anyone can "know" they are right, unless they are themselves just as all knowing as this God we speak of.

Two, how to you justify your own religion in the face of the hundreds of other religions on Earth? What makes your's the correct one? See from my point of view there are all these different religions all wanting me to believe that they know the "truth". How can anyone know for sure that theirs is the "right" one?

See that is my biggest concern with religion. It's the fact that so many people claim that they and only they know the absolute truth that really bothers me. Since most of them contradict each other, it's obvious that many, if not most, of them don't in fact know the truth at all.

I appreciate your willingness to talk about this, and I look forward to hearing how you view these things that I bring up.

 

[blahblahblah]

Ok, thanks for explaining further. I agree it is a bit hard to keep track of everything. Well let's see. It's hard to just choose one issue to discuss, but I suppose we must start somewhere. Alright, my question to you is do you think that you are absolutely right in believing in your God? You have no doubts about his existence, is that correct?

So I have two questions which I truly do not understand the answers to.

One, how do you know you are "right"? What makes you right and another person wrong? I understand if you think your right, but I really don't get how anyone can "know" they are right, unless they are themselves just as all knowing as this God we speak of.

This is extremely hard for me to put into words.

I have not been a Christian all of my life, in fact I have only been a Christian for 5 years. When I started going to church, I absolutely hated it. Going to church would make me angry inside for no apparent reason. But, I continued to go because I was forced by my parents. Eventually, I slowly started to consider everything in my life and the world around me. I remember looking around looking at the hills, the trees, and the ocean (I lived in Hawaii at the time) and I found it hard to believe that the earth was created through the scientific theories that occupy mainstream society today. I mean I looked around, and the world looks so beautiful, for me it seems impossible for anything less than an almighty being to create the universe in all its simplicity and complexity.

I then considered everybody on the planet. I cannot read the newspaper in the morning with out hearing about some sort of murder/crime/tragedy. If you think about it, you could assume man kind has some sort of sickness. Wherever man kind goes, pain, suffering and destruction follows. I personally could not come up with an adequate explanation of why mankind is so destructive, especially if you consider how other animals in this planet exist in some sort of harmony.

I then thought about myself. Before I became a Christian, I thought I was a good person. Society considered me a good person. I worked hard in everything I did. Yet, there is this empty feeling I sometimes get. It is hard to explain what that feeling is, it is even harder to realize that you feel something missing in your life. Becoming a Christian has filled this emptiness in my life. As I look back, it becomes painfully apparent on what I was missing in my life. If you think about it, this makes sense as man kind only has the ability to look at the past. I have yet to meet a person who could look at the present and properly assess their life.

I then had to consider what was best for me, maintaining status quo or consider what Christianity had to offer me. For me personally, Christianity answers all of my questions that I had pondered. God had created the earth in all its glory. Sin explained why man kind was so evil. Then Christianity provides that mssing part in my life with a personal relationship with God. Yet, that was not simply enough for me to become Christian. I was still hesitant. Then one Sunday, my pastor did a study on Matthew Chapter 26. He focused on Peter denying Jesus 3 times. It made the Bible seem so much more than a collection of stories and sentances. I realized that I was not perfect and that I needed to change some how. I came to the conclusion that I needed Jesus, and gave my life over.

Becoming a Christian solved all the questions I had about everything. When I mean everything, I mean everything. To me, my faith is the ultimate solution to any question or problem. That is how I know I am right. I cant think of a way to adequate describe why I know I am right besides the fact that Christianity is the perfect answer for all my questions.

If that doesn't answer your question, I am sorry. I do not know how to explain it better. There are more things I would put in, but i do not know how I would put them into words. I am sorry about any grammar or spelling mistakes. Neutrino - I would answer your second question, but I need some sleep. I only got 4 hours last night because of this thread. If I have time tommorow, I will try to answer you second question.

 

[blahblahblah]

Not finished with the post above. I accidently hit enter by mistake.

[Edit]: Finally finished my previous post.