Religion in Politics

[CptStern]

jesus h christ (excuse the pun), k here's it further simplified:


jesus teaches christians to "Love your enemies"


yet some christians support the war in iraq (war = killing enemy)



the point: it's hypocritical

 

[Ikerous]

jesus h christ (excuse the pun), k here's it further simplified:


jesus teaches christians to "Love your enemies"


yet some christians support the war in iraq (war = killing enemy)



the point: it's hypocritical

I tend to agrea with you here...
But then again, they could be supporting it out of desire to lovingly help the iraqi people (However misguided that may or may not be)

 

[GiaOmerta]

Stern, that passage refers to personal enemies.
Ex: ACLU

You don't have to hate someone to kill either. Like in war, as a soldier, it's your job to insure the defence of your brothers in arms and overall victory. It's not about hate. The other soldier is trying to do the same thing.

 

[MilkMan12]

Well I sure hope to God it plays at least some role in politics, otherwise were ****ed lol. All our laws and basis of our own western civilizations morality comes from religion.

Oh and to the making fun of religion thing...its true. How is it making fun if its true. On a side note, I have personally always found Christianity completely contradicting and just plain confusing. OK 3 GODS OR ONE GOD? CAUSE IF ITS ONE THEN PICK ONE GODAMNIT! But thats me not understanding not the religion.

Also Im Jewish with a lot of Christian friends and family, so I dont have complete first hand knowledge of the faith, but I always get great answers from my Christian friends and family when I ask questions about it.

 

[OCybrManO]

Well I sure hope to God it plays at least some role in politics, otherwise were ****ed lol. All our laws and basis of our own western civilizations morality comes from religion.

So, atheists don't have morals? Morality doesn't start from belief in a religion... unless the person is more selfish than usual (to be explained later) and needs an additional reason (ie: heaven/hell) to be moral.

Children naturally learn the "golden rule" through experience and observation. A child starts off perceiving the world as only what they can sense. Then, the child will learn that things exist and are going on while they can not see/hear. The next major milestone (pertaining to this topic) is when the child realizes that everyone else experiences the world in the same way he/she does, and that his/her parents don't know about things they don't sense. This starts a stage where the child will lie frequently and even about inconsequential things to experiment with this newfound knowledge. In fact, studies show that the more intelligent children tend to learn how to lie earlier and do it more often during this phase. Finally, the child grows out of that phase (well, mostly) when he/she starts to grasp the concept that his/her actions have an effect on others, people other than himself/herself have feelings, and that other people can do the same things to him/her. That usually cuts down on a lot of violent and selfish behaviors along with prevarication. This isn't a process only seen in children of religious families or families that live in certain geographical regions. It's a near-universal process that almost every child (excluding some children with mental disorders and those severely lacking in social interaction) goes through in their early years of development. Some will still go against it through learning bad behaviors from observing their own violent families and having no outside sources to learn from... but in a relatively normal environment it's not nearly as likely. Natural morality is selfish (I'll be nice to everyone so that they won't do bad things to me)... religious morality adds another layer of selfishness to the mix (I'll be nice to everyone so that they won't do bad things to me and I'll get a big reward).

 

[GiaOmerta]

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."

(I'll be nice to everyone so that they won't do bad things to me and I'll get a big reward).

I know where your coming from, but if the reward you are referring to is eternal life, then "being nice" has nothing to do with it.

 

[OCybrManO]

I know where your coming from, but if the reward you are referring to is eternal life, then "being nice" has nothing to do with it.

In many forms of Christianity/Judaism/Zoroastrianism/etc, if one doesn't repent one's sins one will not get the aforementioned reward. So, yes, the reward is related to the morality (by the religion's definition) of the corresponding religion's followers. There aren't many religions that I know of that say everyone gets rewarded no matter what they do. Most require at least some semblance of morality. Yes, there are additional rules that you'll need to abide by that aren't really morality questions... such as actually believing in the religion and its ideas (ie: there is one true God, Jesus is our savior, the Bible is the word of God, etc) but I never said every aspect of a religion is selfish... just rewards that depend on your actions (and I'd say most religions have some kind of reward for morality).

EDIT:

"For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:20 RSV

 

[GiaOmerta]

In many forms of Christianity

Isn't the Jesus the foundation of Christianity, and the Bible His Word?

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Good works come naturally.

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

The Pharisees were corrupt. They too are not righteous of the Kingdom of God. None are.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"

This includes the Pharisees and the scribes and every member of humanity past, present and future.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Death as in spiritial death.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Jesus paid the price for sin. Humanity was unable to atone for sin without a sinless and perfect sacrifice. Why would Jesus have died if good works were required for salvation.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It's all here. The means of salvation. If humanity was capabable of saving itself from sin, Jesus wouldnt have died for humanities sins.

It's not about religion or traditions or any of that. It's about a relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

[MentalSentinel]

Religion really plays a too big part in politics. It shouldn't even play a part at all.
It only should play a part if everyone believed the same.

I accidentally voted for no though, I misread it.
Here it's pretty normal though (the Netherlands), it DOES play a too big part in countries like the US.

 

[Razor]

Religion and the state should be kept apart, it only runs into problems when they are allowed to mix, as could be seen in Afghanistan with the Taliban, Iran now, Syria, Egypt, etc, etc, etc and to some extent, America as well. I am just glad that religion doesn't play such a huge role in British politics.

I am not against religion, i am however opposed to religious people imposing their beliefs on me. This is what is happening in America, with a lot of the anti-gay campaigning that the Christian groups are doing. A hardcore and highly vocal Christian group has no right to tell Mr Smith and Mr Doe that they can not get married, unfortunately for a lot of Americans, this is the case.

 

[Korgoth]

I pray to God everyday that G.W. doesn't get us all killed....


Oh, thats not exactly what the thread is about is it?....

I think religion doesn't really play a huge part in politics, but I think some politicians like to play the religion card to get people to follow them. Or to excuse their actions under certain circumstances. And in reality, these people are probably the least religious, most rich/corrupt group of people the world knows.

I don't trust any man who would say God told him to do something. Most people today are only religious when its convieniant for them. Some only on Sunday, some only because they are of the opiniont that "oh well, if its fake, at least I won't go to hell for not believing" but boy, do they have another thing coming.

 

[KoreBolteR]

well, politicians always try and kiss religions ass if thats what you mean.

just to get people 'on thier side', just as any other group/class of people.

 

[CptStern]

I don't trust any man who would say God told him to do something.

amen to that


"He is one of those men God and fate somehow lead to the fore in times of challenge," George Pataki, Introduction of Bush at the Republican National Convention


"If I'd won that election in 1992, my oldest son would not be president of the United States of America," he said. "I think the Lord works in mysterious ways." - George H Bush


"Why is this man in the White House? The majority of America did not vote for him. He's in the White House because God put him there for a time such as this." - Gen. William "Jerry" Boykin


"I think President Bush is God's man at this hour, and I say this with a great sense of humility." - Tim Goeglein, White House official


and from the man himself:

"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them." - George W Bush, speaking to Palestinian Prime Minister Abbas



here's bush praying:

separation of church and state my arse


here's a good article on the rise of christian fundamentalism in government ...I suspect some of you wont be able to get past the title of the article ...ignore it and read the article

 

[Absinthe]

Stern, that passage refers to personal enemies.
Ex: ACLU

What the Hell is the problem some religious folks have with the ACLU? They are not anti-religion, nor anti-Christian, nor anti-anything. They have defended the rights of plenty of Christians. Anybody who views the ACLU as some kind of enemy is simply searching for a foe to justify their righteousness.

"Under god". This country is a christian nation and 70%+ of its inhabitants are christian. By the way, try not to take that quote out of context.

What's your point? Because Christians are a majority, they should have more rights than non-theists or theists of different religions? Sorry, doesn't work that way. The USA also protects the rights of minorities, and the Constitution is an unambiguously secular and godless document. And "under God" hasn't been around as long as you think it has.

 

[KoreBolteR]

tbh.. all politics leads down to religion in a way...

like cpt said, i think bush fakes that praying stuff.

 

[CptStern]

tbh.. all politics leads down to religion in a way...

like cpt said, i think bush fakes that praying stuff.

no it's worse than that ...bush actually is a true believer ..he's evangelical and may believe in creationism ..cant remember specifically but I think he's mentioned it

 

[KoreBolteR]

yeah but hes only born again as a christian to help himself politically.

 

[Absinthe]

So he's either an evangelical nut or his "strong character" is fake.

I like him more and more every day.

 

[KoreBolteR]

So he's either an evangelical nut or his "strong character" is fake.

I like him more and more every day.

yeah but that doesnt change his decisions on iraq and afghanistan..

 

[Absinthe]

yeah but that doesnt change his decisions on iraq and afghanistan..

And you should know very well what my positions on those two things consist of.

 

[KoreBolteR]

And you should know very well what my positions on those two things consist of.

im just saying that george bush being 'religious' doesnt change much in the war on terror.

 

[Absinthe]

im just saying that george bush being 'religious' doesnt change much in the war on terror.

It does when he admits to it (read Stern's post).

 

[CptStern]

sure it does ..read the article I posted


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5648.htm

 

[kirovman]

So why was he 'born again'?

Was his previous incarnation aborted by an Iraqi president?

Still, explains his stance on things.

 

[KoreBolteR]

i dont understand religious people at all.

 

[MilkMan12]

So, atheists don't have morals? Morality doesn't start from belief in a religion... unless the person is more selfish than usual (to be explained later) and needs an additional reason (ie: heaven/hell) to be moral.

Children naturally learn the "golden rule" through experience and observation. A child starts off perceiving the world as only what they can sense. Then, the child will learn that things exist and are going on while they can not see/hear. The next major milestone (pertaining to this topic) is when the child realizes that everyone else experiences the world in the same way he/she does, and that his/her parents don't know about things they don't sense. This starts a stage where the child will lie frequently and even about inconsequential things to experiment with this newfound knowledge. In fact, studies show that the more intelligent children tend to learn how to lie earlier and do it more often during this phase. Finally, the child grows out of that phase (well, mostly) when he/she starts to grasp the concept that his/her actions have an effect on others, people other than himself/herself have feelings, and that other people can do the same things to him/her. That usually cuts down on a lot of violent and selfish behaviors along with prevarication. This isn't a process only seen in children of religious families or families that live in certain geographical regions. It's a near-universal process that almost every child (excluding some children with mental disorders and those severely lacking in social interaction) goes through in their early years of development. Some will still go against it through learning bad behaviors from observing their own violent families and having no outside sources to learn from... but in a relatively normal environment it's not nearly as likely. Natural morality is selfish (I'll be nice to everyone so that they won't do bad things to me)... religious morality adds another layer of selfishness to the mix (I'll be nice to everyone so that they won't do bad things to me and I'll get a big reward).

Lmao where did I say atheists have no morals? I said the basis of all morality comes from religion. Your belief in no murder comes from the bible. Whether or not you believe in God makes no difference. There is a seperation in Church and State yet all of our laws stem from things that religion has come up with first.

Also your selfishness comment...do I need to explain to you why if any religion is selfish it would be the belief in no God? If you dont believe in God you believe in yourself, as if YOU are the author of everything (natural) you see. Everything you made, you discovered you started. That is naiive and selfish sorry.

Also your whole reward argument would be awesome if anything you said was plausible or true lol. Learn more about those religions and figure it out for yourself. I know in Judaism your reward for repenting your sins is asking for forgiveness from God and your friends and the people around you. If you dont want forgiveness dont repent. Because thats all your reward COULD be. Saying sorry and making up for what you have done does not redeem yourself at all. You must do it for the sake of others not yourself. In judaism there is no hell, so there really is no reward.

 

[jondy]

Lmao where did I say atheists have no morals? I said the basis of all morality comes from religion. Your belief in no murder comes from the bible. Whether or not you believe in God makes no difference. There is a seperation in Church and State yet all of our laws stem from things that religion has come up with first.

Also your selfishness comment...do I need to explain to you why if any religion is selfish it would be the belief in no God? If you dont believe in God you believe in yourself, as if YOU are the author of everything (natural) you see. Everything you made, you discovered you started.

The basis of all morality does not come from religion. Society was around before religion was. You really can't get around that. You reckon people didn't give a damn about murdering people before christianity/ hinduism/ islam etc came along? Bullshit.

As for the 'if you don't believe in god you believe in yourself' stuff; you're not talking sense. Ignoring the offensive potential of the supposed prerequisite that without faith in God you're selfish, I'll address the point directly:

You are ignoring society and instead assuming that without religion moral values would not exist. Agreed, to some extent the morals in society derive from religion, but in no way are they founded upon it. This relates to the first point I made.

That is naiive and selfish sorry.

There's really no need for that

 

[Absinthe]

Lmao where did I say atheists have no morals? I said the basis of all morality comes from religion. Your belief in no murder comes from the bible. Whether or not you believe in God makes no difference. There is a seperation in Church and State yet all of our laws stem from things that religion has come up with first.

1) Bullshit. My distaste for murder was something I had before I could even begin to ponder the actual purpose and meaning of the bible. And some scientists would even argue that rape may not be something we learn to dislike, but something we are naturally disgusted by.

2) I disagree with murder and rape because I believe such actions are destructive forces in this world. I disagree with rape and murder because I care about others. I disagree with rape and murder because I care about justice. I care about rape and murder because I don't want my short time on this planet to be a shitty one.
If the only thing keeping your "morals" in check is threat of force from God, then you aren't really a moral person at all. I'd hate to see what you'd turn into if your God was proven to be non-existent.

3) Even if what you say is true, and religion was the initial impetus for moral guidelines, then I don't see the purpose of it any longer. Great, the Bible told us not to kill. That should be simple enough for us to follow without all the religious strings attached. It's not like such a commandment requires anything else. It makes sense on its own.

Also your selfishness comment...do I need to explain to you why if any religion is selfish it would be the belief in no God? If you dont believe in God you believe in yourself, as if YOU are the author of everything (natural) you see. Everything you made, you discovered you started. That is naiive and selfish sorry.

You have such a bizarre misunderstanding of atheism it's not even funny.

First of all, don't dress up atheism as something it isn't. Atheism, by definition, is the absence of a belief in deities. It's the opposite of theism. Nothing more or less. At no point does there arise a dogma instructing an atheist what he should believe in.

Secondly, your assertion is illogical and frankly quite stupid. I believe that I exist, but I have no idea as to what you're talking about when you say that I believe in myself. Either way, that doesn't mean that I believe I am the author of everything. I didn't make trees. I didn't make grass. I didn't make oxygen. I didn't make the solar system. I didn't make the sun. MilkMan, just what kind of argument are you putting forth?

I don't claim to know what made these things. I know I didn't, and I'm quite certain that man didn't either. But "God did it" is not a fallback position.

Also your whole reward argument would be awesome if anything you said was plausible or true lol. Learn more about those religions and figure it out for yourself. I know in Judaism your reward for repenting your sins is asking for forgiveness from God and your friends and the people around you. If you dont want forgiveness dont repent. Because thats all your reward COULD be. Saying sorry and making up for what you have done does not redeem yourself at all. You must do it for the sake of others not yourself. In judaism there is no hell, so there really is no reward.

Learn more about atheism and don't subject others to your utter misunderstandings.

 

[KoreBolteR]

you could say that about anyone who believes in god. anyway tell me someone, if god exists and he met a person who didnt believe in him, what would god do to that person? turn him into a slug for 8 million years as punishment?

wait... the bible told us not to kill? thats bs, common sense and a heart told me not to kill anyone. its against my principles. nothing to do with some book written by a group of men who founded christianity.

if there was no bible would people would just grab a kitchen knife and kill anyone whos nearest? no way.

btw i am not an athiest.

i jus keep wondering how people can believe in things and sacrifice thier lives for something they cant prove thats even there?!

 

[T.H.C.138]

how about it (the bible)was originally intended as a book of moral guidelines and somewhere along the way it got blown way out of proportion? how do we know who really wrote it and why? were we there?

if you truly look at history you will see that it isn't the religion itself that is "bad",but the power that some derive from it is

look at the Mormons for example....Brigham Young was a thug who stole property from people "in the name of God"..sometimes killing the family for the land,making it look as though it was done by "injuns!"..

my great grand father was on the original wagon train to Utah with Brigham Young..I have read parts of his diary..religion is ok I guess but just keep people out of it

 

[Absinthe]

you could say that about anyone who believes in god. anyway tell me someone, if god exists and he met a person who didnt believe in him, what would god do to that person? turn him into a slug for 8 million years as punishment?

God would do what any omnibenevolent and loving parent would do.

He'd subject them to an eternity in Hell for not believing in him.

(the Christian god would, at least)

 

[KoreBolteR]

God would do what any omnibenevolent and loving parent would do.

He'd subject them to an eternity in Hell for not believing in him.

(the Christian god would, at least)

how do you know there is a god?
how can you prove he wont forgive us and keep us in heaven?

eh? :naughty:

your theory is based entirely on faith

 

[ONE MAN CLAN]

No, it has no relevance in the UK.

hey dude, check you pm

 

[Absinthe]

how do you know there is a god?

I don't. Nor do I believe there to be one. My post was sarcastic.

how can you prove he wont forgive us and keep us in heaven?

If he does do such a thing, then he's not the Christian god depicted in the Bible.

eh? :naughty:

your theory is based entirely on faith

Which is why I personally don't buy any of that stuff.

 

[T.H.C.138]

anyone recall the story about Abraham? how he had to kill his son in place of a lamb for god? christians like to forget that god once demanded blood sacrifice..

I know Abraham didn't kill his son,but the whole thing of god telling this guy to do it to prove his faith..just seems wrong..like something a cruel child would do

 

[CptStern]

meh that's before practical jokes were all the rage ...god was just teasing abraham like he teased moses :E

 

[OCybrManO]

Isn't the Jesus the foundation of Christianity, and the Bible His Word?

Good works come naturally.

The Pharisees were corrupt. They too are not righteous of the Kingdom of God. None are.

This includes the Pharisees and the scribes and every member of humanity past, present and future.

Death as in spiritial death.

Jesus paid the price for sin. Humanity was unable to atone for sin without a sinless and perfect sacrifice. Why would Jesus have died if good works were required for salvation.

It's all here. The means of salvation. If humanity was capabable of saving itself from sin, Jesus wouldnt have died for humanities sins.

It's not about religion or traditions or any of that. It's about a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Yeah, everyone sins... and? You still have to ask forgiveness for your sins and you can't truly repent while continuing the sin for which you are asking forgiveness, can you? So, you must actually try to become a moral person. You can't go around breaking commandments and going against "God's will" after you apologize for doing it, right? Wouldn't that be like an insult to God? Just because Jesus died for your sins doesn't mean you have an all-expenses-paid trip to heaven. No, you still have to pull your own weight. You just have someone helping you along the way. It could also be argued that the idea of everyone being a sinner gives people an excuse for doing some bad things... because, hey, they can't help being a sinner, right?

Lmao where did I say atheists have no morals? I said the basis of all morality comes from religion. Your belief in no murder comes from the bible. Whether or not you believe in God makes no difference. There is a seperation in Church and State yet all of our laws stem from things that religion has come up with first.

Even when anthropologists study groups of people that have never had contact with anyone remotely connected to a culture that was exposed to the Bible they still have their own set of morals. They still know it's not good to hurt people. You don't have to be told that being hurt is bad... and everyone wants to prevent it. Now, if everyone has a common ground on not wanting to be hurt what do you do about it? That's right, you come together as a group (society) and make an agreement (law) that anyone who harms someone else will be punished. The thought of being harmed for harming someone else is intended to stop people from doing bad things by using their own selfishness. In fact, I'd even go as far as to say that every act involving thought is at least somewhat selfish in one way or another.

Also your selfishness comment...do I need to explain to you why if any religion is selfish it would be the belief in no God? If you dont believe in God you believe in yourself, as if YOU are the author of everything (natural) you see. Everything you made, you discovered you started. That is naiive and selfish sorry.

Both are equally selfish. On the whole, atheists do good things so good things will be done for/to them in return while theists follow their religious traditions in order to be saved, forgiven, allowed into heaven, or otherwise rewarded in some way. Both get rewards... one is just more immediate.

Also your whole reward argument would be awesome if anything you said was plausible or true lol. Learn more about those religions and figure it out for yourself. I know in Judaism your reward for repenting your sins is asking for forgiveness from God and your friends and the people around you. If you dont want forgiveness dont repent. Because thats all your reward COULD be. Saying sorry and making up for what you have done does not redeem yourself at all. You must do it for the sake of others not yourself. In judaism there is no hell, so there really is no reward.

The Jews are supposedly the chosen people of God. Their 613 mitzvot (many modern Jews follow only the ethical ones... not the ones that have to do with what food is kosher, what kind of clothing one should wear, etc) in the Torah were supposed to be followed out of thankfulness and respect of their relationship with their god. Still, only the very righteous go directly to Gan Eden. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom. The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then the person ascends to take his/her place on Olam Ha-Ba. The World to Come, or Olam Ha-Ba, is when the messiah comes to initiate the perfect world of peace and prosperity. Only the utterly wicked do not ascend at the end of this period. Their souls are punished for the entire 12 months. Various forms of Judaism differ on what happens at the end of those 12 months: some say that the wicked soul is utterly destroyed and ceases to exist while others say that the soul continues to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse. The righteous dead will be brought back to life and given the opportunity to experience the perfected world that their righteousness helped to create. A particularly righteous person will have a greater share in the Olam Ha-Ba than the average person. A person can also lose his share through wicked actions. The wicked dead will not be resurrected.

If you ask me, that seems like a good reason to be at least somewhat moral... well, better than wicked. :E

 

[kmack]

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=78988

this is why i not only think that religion plays too big a role in politics now, but that it will continue to do so until this country is no longer goverend by its citizens, but by the bible.http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/7235393

 

[MilkMan12]

Yeah, everyone sins... and? You still have to ask forgiveness for your sins and you can't truly repent while continuing the sin for which you are asking forgiveness, can you? So, you must actually try to become a moral person. You can't go around breaking commandments and going against "God's will" after you apologize for doing it, right? Wouldn't that be like an insult to God? Just because Jesus died for your sins doesn't mean you have an all-expenses-paid trip to heaven. No, you still have to pull your own weight. You just have someone helping you along the way. It could also be argued that the idea of everyone being a sinner gives people an excuse for doing some bad things... because, hey, they can't help being a sinner, right?

Even when anthropologists study groups of people that have never had contact with anyone remotely connected to a culture that was exposed to the Bible they still have their own set of morals. They still know it's not good to hurt people. You don't have to be told that being hurt is bad... and everyone wants to prevent it. Now, if everyone has a common ground on not wanting to be hurt what do you do about it? That's right, you come together as a group (society) and make an agreement (law) that anyone who harms someone else will be punished. The thought of being harmed for harming someone else is intended to stop people from doing bad things by using their own selfishness. In fact, I'd even go as far as to say that every act involving thought is at least somewhat selfish in one way or another.

Both are equally selfish. On the whole, atheists do good things so good things will be done for/to them in return while theists follow their religious traditions in order to be saved, forgiven, allowed into heaven, or otherwise rewarded in some way. Both get rewards... one is just more immediate.

The Jews are supposedly the chosen people of God. Their 613 mitzvot (many modern Jews follow only the ethical ones... not the ones that have to do with what food is kosher, what kind of clothing one should wear, etc) in the Torah were supposed to be followed out of thankfulness and respect of their relationship with their god. Still, only the very righteous go directly to Gan Eden. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom. The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then the person ascends to take his/her place on Olam Ha-Ba. The World to Come, or Olam Ha-Ba, is when the messiah comes to initiate the perfect world of peace and prosperity. Only the utterly wicked do not ascend at the end of this period. Their souls are punished for the entire 12 months. Various forms of Judaism differ on what happens at the end of those 12 months: some say that the wicked soul is utterly destroyed and ceases to exist while others say that the soul continues to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse. The righteous dead will be brought back to life and given the opportunity to experience the perfected world that their righteousness helped to create. A particularly righteous person will have a greater share in the Olam Ha-Ba than the average person. A person can also lose his share through wicked actions. The wicked dead will not be resurrected.

If you ask me, that seems like a good reason to be at least somewhat moral... well, better than wicked. :E

Before I refer to this quote I wanna say i knew I would be killed for saying what I did. I still believe that not believing in God is what I say it is. I dont think they are bad and excuse me for saying what I said before, not ALL morals come from religion. Im done with that.

Thats a great Pshat but thats all it is. Pshat. Pshat is basically the denotation of whatever it is you read this from (its prolly from the Torah or Mishnah, not sure which one) but either way you gotta look at it from a Drash level. God I love that word...Drash. But to tell you the truth, a waiting period of 12 months to go to heaven for all eternity aint that bad lol. So I still dont see skipping the line as a huge reward.

 

[OCybrManO]

But to tell you the truth, a waiting period of 12 months to go to heaven for all eternity aint that bad lol. So I still dont see skipping the line as a huge reward.

If you were talking about what I said and not an interpretive version of it, it's more than just "skipping the line." I said a person of average morality goes through a purification in Gehinnom and has less of a share in the Olam Ha-Ba... while wicked people go through punishment and don't even get in. Basically, it's a spectrum with reward on one end and punishment on the other. If you're great, you get great treatment. If you're mediocre, you get mediocre treatment. If you're terrible, you get terrible treatment. How much do you want it?

Thats a great Pshat but thats all it is. Pshat. Pshat is basically the denotation of whatever it is you read this from (its prolly from the Torah or Mishnah, not sure which one) but either way you gotta look at it from a Drash level.

Yeah, yeah... Pshat, Remez, Drash, and Sod. What is thought to be intended to be interpreted rather than read literally depends on the religious views of the person reading the Torah (or any religious scripture). If they don't believe something they are likely to take it as a metaphor so that it no longer contradicts their dogma. That's the easiest method of explaining away discepencies, contradictions, magic, stuff that sounds crazy (in their opinion), etc. People in all kinds of religions have been doing it for thousands of years.

Wait.. how did we get to this point? The last thing I remember is saying many (if not most) religions reward morality... which is true. Somehow, it turned into a discussion of the Jewish afterlife/apocalypse... and then the various way of understanding their scripture. Before this gets any more off-topic I'm going to just leave. Anyway, I have a test on something else in less than half a day and I haven't cracked the book or taken notes.

For the rest of you guys... back on topic... religion in politics... good or bad?