Religion, Politics, and Control.

[Mechagodzilla]

We will never see textbooks forced to replace evolution with the aboriginal myth of the world sprouting from the shell of a massive turtle. .

What does evolution have to do with christianity? I only ask because you were focusing much on christianity in your post, then jumped to that.

Whoops, that was indeed a poor phrasing. I'm not actually wanting to remove evolution. The idea was meant to be absurd.

My point was that we would never let other religions force their values and beliefs onto society at large, but everyone just shrugs their shoulders when christians do it. Creationism has usurped evolution in schools across the nation. Can you imagine the screaming if it were scientology's belief that the world was home to alien nuke ghosts from a volcano instead?

The only reason this is being allowed to happen is that christians are the majority.

The political candidate that introduces christianity-based laws will have a huge advantage.
The other candidate who chooses not to destroy the secularity of government is then seen as anti-christian instead of responsible. Any further attempts to fix the damage will be deemed even more anti-christian.
Introducing religious beliefs so blatantly into the secular affairs of government is what won Bush the election, and that's set a precendent. In order to win in the political arena now, people are going to follow Bush's trends or lose.

It's a downward spiral, and that's why I predict that we're not going to see a non-christian president for a loooong time. Woman? Perhaps. A minority? Possible. A minority other than black or hispanic? Remotely possible.
But someone who isn't christian? No way in hell.

Nowadays, not being catholic is a stretch.

 

[Raziaar]

Can you imagine the screaming if it were scientology's belief that the world was home to alien nuke ghosts from a volcano instead?

I thought only celebrities were sucked into scientology :-P

And threatened if they left.

 

[KoreBolteR]

we need 1 religion.

and that 1 religion shouldnt be like any of the ones that exist today.

just one that normal people (who believe that there maybe or maybe not think that there is another place where your spirit goes after death, doesnt think there is a god in human form, doesnt believe in adam and eve and the stupid apple, doesnt believe in jesus coming down. IF there IS a jesus).

actually if no-1 had a religion, there would be million of problems resolved daily.

 

[Tr0n]

we need 1 religion.

and that 1 religion shouldnt be like any of the ones that exist today.

just one that normal people (who believe that there maybe or maybe not think that there is another place where your spirit goes after death, doesnt think there is a god in human form, doesnt believe in adam and eve and the stupid apple, doesnt believe in jesus coming down. IF there IS a jesus).

actually if no-1 had a religion, there would be million of problems resolved daily.

Yes there was a jesus and even if it did solve a million of our problems today...more than likely another million would pop up.

 

[KoreBolteR]

Yes there was a jesus and even if it did solve a million of our problems today...more than likely another million would pop up.

heh, but how do you know! did you shake his hand personally, seen him on TV? play basketball with him? no.

theres to many religions in this world, and in the future , it could cause many wars.

 

[Tr0n]

heh, but how do you know! did you shake his hand personally, seen him on TV? play basketball with him? no.

Actually I have...hell I even play xbox games with him everyone once in a while.

 

[KoreBolteR]

Actually I have...hell I even play xbox games with him everyone once in a while.

ROFLROFL

 

[DEATH eVADER]

Religion Kills, yet they like to live in their little world and say that religion was not responcible for the deaths of millions of people throughout the ages.

 

[Zorrander001]

If religion is responsible for millions of deaths, then science is responsible for 100 times more. Therefore science should be eradicated from society first since it is clearly the greatest evil of the two.

And if you say scientists can't be blamed for the deaths of billions through technology, then you must also accept that religions can't be blamed for the deaths caused extreamist world leaders. Either religion is evil but science is 100 times more evil, or neither is evil and it is the human beings that made the choices that are responsible.

actually if no-1 had a religion, there would be million of problems resolved daily.

Even more problems would be resolved if we eradicated love, the potential for anger, and every other emotion for that matter. The world would be better off, but at what cost? Is it so necessary to improve conditions that it is acceptable to actually kill such a huge part of ourselves in order to make life better? In any case, you havn't shown how ending religion would improve anything anyway. I can only see negative consequences.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

Blaming religion for all these deaths isn't right. It seems to be human nature to place blame. All the time we say its the fault of something else that isn't involved with us. Its time we realise that its us causing the problem. We are all to blame, and once we realise that...Only then can we seriously improve matters.

The only reason this is being allowed to happen is that christians are the majority.

Isn't that the point of Democracy?
I'm not going to say anything else, but isn't the system of government where The Majority Rules, supposed to be the one we all live by?

 

[baxter]

Religion is responsible for millions of deaths: fact.

I would like to quote from a very informative book I am reading.

A book called the Malleus Maleficarum-or the the witches hammer instructed the clergy how to locate and destroy "free thinking women". These deemed witches by the church including scholars, priestesses, gypsies, herb gathers and any women suspiciously attuned to the nature world. Even midwifes where included, as they eased the pain of child birth- a suffering, the Church claimed was Gods rightful punishment for Eves partaking of the Apple of Knowledge. During the three hundred year witch hunt the Church burned at the stake an astounding five million women"

This is genocide by any standard. I'm sorry but I do not see that science has caused this type of mass murder. I know somebody will point at the atomic bomb and weapons of mass destruction as science but just because science brought about these weapons does not mean that science used them. This is like blaming the car for a road accident.

Religion has killed mercilessly millions over the years and continues to do so.

If I was to choose between religions or science has the saviours of the planet, I firmly come down on sciences side.

 

[Absinthe]

Isn't that the point of Democracy?
I'm not going to say anything else, but isn't the system of government where The Majority Rules, supposed to be the one we all live by?

Yes, but that shouldn't come with the cost of the disadvantagement of minorities.

 

[Zorrander001]

Religion has killed no one baxter, the witch trials were a conception of demented, murderous policy makers. The acts committed in the witch trials were very much against what Christianity stands for. That is like saying Islam is bad because there are islamic terrorists, while millions practice it correctly in peace. It just so happens that in the case of the witch trials, the extreamist(terrorists) happen to have a lot of power in society and were able to dictate policy.

In the same way that some environmental groups resort to vandalism and murder for their cause, so did some misguided religious fundamentalists sometimes resort to the same measures or worse. The blame rests solely on the individual.

 

[Absinthe]

And most of the athiests that come on message boards such as these, are those very same 'activist athiests', eager to bash.

It's the internet. And hey... it's fun.

If you ever feel like it, you can try to force your beliefs down my throat! And then I'll do the same! And then we'll degrade to the point of calling each other "infidels" and "sheep"!

And when it's all over, we'll go down the pub, grab a pint, and have a nice good laugh.

 

[Absinthe]

Religion has killed no one baxter, the witch trials were a conception of demented, murderous policy makers. The acts committed in the witch trials were very much against what Christianity stands for. That is like saying Islam is bad because there are islamic terrorists, while millions practice it correctly in peace. It just so happens that in the case of the witch trials, the extreamist(terrorists) happen to have a lot of power in society and were able to dictate policy.

In the same way that some environmental groups resort to vandalism and murder for their cause, so did some misguided religious fundamentalists sometimes resort to the same measures or worse. The blame rests solely on the individual.

Religion is one thing. Organized religion is another.

I would argue that organized religion has resulted in the deaths of many people and used to be a shining beacon of intolerance.

 

[baxter]

Zorrander we will hopefully have to agree to disagree on this on.

When a book is publishing by the church instructing its clergymen to commit mass murder I don't see that as individual acts I see that for what it is.

I really don't wish to go down the road; many of these threads do, of tit for tat slagging match. I never said that Islam was bad and you are correct millions of people practise their own religion in peace. This does not alter the fact that millions of people have been murdered in the name of the Church. It does not alter the fact that although most people are totally at ease with their faith there is and will always be a small minority that will take it to the extremes. As you have pointed out, if these extremes happen to have a great deal; of power, at any one time the consequences can be horrific.

I feel and this is only my opinion that individuals will act in a barbaric way and feel that they are protected because they believe they are truly doing Gods work.

Blaming the church directly for mass murder is strong I admit but surely it must lie uncomfortably within the present church to have such acts committed on their behalf ,in their history books.

Let’s agree to disagree.

 

[CptStern]

crusades and the inquisition was sanctioned by the church, not individuals

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

But then you see "The Church" is like any corporation in existence today. In no way good or evil, but very inhuman and impersonal.

There is even a word for the way groups of people act like single entities.

 

[Zorrander001]

[/quote]When a book is publishing by the church instructing its clergymen to commit mass murder I don't see that as individual acts I see that for what it is.
[/quote]

It is still the clergy men or even the church authority that is responsible. You can't blame religion, or even this specific religion, when the book itself(the hammer) and the acts committed on it's behalf are in violation of that religion. It was a dark period in the church, but it was the result of church authority making terrible decisions that were not based in the religion itself, but instead in their own issues with intolerance and paranoia.

When a religion commands not to kill, to love one another even our enemies, to forgive in order to recieve God's forgiveness, and then the followers of that religion commit horrendous murders based on intolerance and inability to forgive/love, they are obviously going against the religion. So then how can the religion be blamed for their actions, even when the transgressions were done in the name of the religion? Thats like me running around and saying "in the name of science, I will make baseless assumptions with no fact to back them up and propegate them as truth with falsified evidence!" Obviously, even though I did this in the name of science, I was not in agreement with it's principals and therefore the scientific method cannot be blamed for me dishonest actions.


I am not trying to alter facts or downplay anything, I'm just finding it hard to believe people are blaming institutions for actions committed in transgression of the institutions principals.

I feel and this is only my opinion that individuals will act in a barbaric way and feel that they are protected because they believe they are truly doing Gods work.

Barbaric individuals will act barbarically and feel justified in their beliefs, but it is still the barbarian nature of the individual that drives his actions. Likewise, loving and kind people will alos feel justified, and the latter usually outnumber the former in most times in history, especially present day.

Blaming the church directly for mass murder is strong I admit but surely it must lie uncomfortably within the present church to have such acts committed on their behalf ,in their history books.

You would not be wrong in blaming them during the witch trials, but the institution in place today is quite different. The Catholic Church has taken long strides in tolerance and acceptance of the greater community. I remmeber witches and hindu belly dancers performing at major catholic events, even infront of the Pope! And much to his delight I imagine! We have come a long way from stringing them up on a pole and setting them on fire, yet the religion itself has remained the same. This change is the result of growth in human understanding and compassion, and a greater convergence with the religion!

Let’s agree to disagree.

If this post doesn't dissuade you from your current opinion, I certainly won't argue it any further with you. I have already said everything I have to say I think. And I see your point, I just try to look at the bigger picture. Perspective can make all the difference. BTW, incase anyone is wondering(or still reading my rants to begin with), I'm not religious.

 

[Zorrander001]

crusades and the inquisition was sanctioned by the church, not individuals

I'm certainly not arguing that the inquisition was sanctioned by the Church, but the descision was still not in convergence with the principals of the religion. I don't care if every christian at the time on the face of the Earth believed in putting witches to death(which they certainly didn't), it was still a policy that was in transgression with the religion. You can blame the individuals, you can even blame the church authority of the time, but to blame the religion itself is a farce when the religion in question doesn't condone such actions!


I should probably add here that going back into the old testament and quoting "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" won't change anything. You have to understand the religion to a greater extent before you can wrap your mind around this one. Study Christianity in depth for a couple of years before arguing that it condones the murder of witches. Ofcourse, if anyone does quote this, I will be obligated to reply with a detailed explination, I'm just trying to save everyone(especially me!) the time. Do some research first on the old/new covenants and the place of the old law in the new covenant.

 

[baxter]

Your points and agreement is well presented and I respect your views although I can't bring myself to agree with them.

To drawn a line between the church and religion does do not hold. The church is religion and individuals within the church are part of that religion.
I'm sorry but to blame the action of the individual within any group does not work. Although people are responsible for their own actions. When they are part of a group and that very group sanctions their actions the group is responsible.
The church or any house of worship would not exist if it was not for religion,so i see it that genecide on this scale, sanctioned by the church and carried out by the church,ultimatly the buck stops at religion itself .
The principle of the church at that time was to eliminate anybody, namely women who repressed a perceived threat to their domination and as a group, the action they took was swift and brutal.
We can pass this backwards and forwards but I feel we could get into hot water, so like yourself I feel I have said enough on the matter.
Respect your views, sorry but you haven't changed mine, cheers.

 

[CptStern]

You can blame the individuals, you can even blame the church authority of the time, but to blame the religion itself is a farce when the religion in question doesn't condone such actions!.

i agree, ..that arguement can also be used to support gay lifestyle ..it's how religion interprets specific teachings to suit their goals

 

[Zorrander001]

To drawn a line between the church and religion does do not hold. The church is religion and individuals within the church are part of that religion.

I wouldn't say the church is religion, I would just say the church strives to follow a religion. With this understanding we can account for how the church can do things that goes against Christianity. If we say the institution and the religion are one, then the religion itself changes with every policy change made by the institution, and since the belief structure of the actual religion(the teachings of christianity) have remained the same for 2000 years, and it is only the institution's policies that change, then we must conclude that the religion(teachings of christianity) and the institutions following the religion are sometimes in strife and therefore cannot be the same thing.

it comes down to how exactly you view religion, and I can see now why we don't see eye to eye. It is here where we disagree.

I think we have no choice but to seperate the institution and the religion(the belief structure put forth in the Bible), since a religion is represented by so many different conflicting institutions, and since how the institutions understand the religion is in constant flux. They cannot be the same.

 

[baxter]

Your points are good and I see that the insitutions that now follow religion have changed and that religion itself has not changed.

The point I am putting across, is that the church, a religious institution has committed terrible acts. The fact that the religion of Christian does not teach or peach mass murder or genocide does not alter the fact that in the name of Christianity these acts have been done. I am not anti Christianity or anti religion.

I could digress onto other aspects but I would like to stay with this one moment in time as I believe both our points of view hinge upon it

Without the church there would be no Christianity, without Christianity there would be no church i.e. without the views there would be no institution and without the institution there would be no views.

I believe the church is an institution based on a set of values, i.e. relgion.The church enforces its values, sometimes through extreme and violent methods, as with the witch hunt.

Whether the church was laced with extremists at the time is not the issue. The issue is that an institution based on a set of values has committed mass murder. Whether the institution misread their values is not the issue.

Do you blame the institution or the set of values that this institution is based upon?

I feel we don't see eye to eye because I blame the values the institution is set up on, whereby you blame the institution. But either way the two are closely interwoven and cannot be separated

 

[Zorrander001]

The point I am putting across, is that the church, a religious institution has committed terrible acts.

Agreed.

The fact that the religion of Christian does not teach or peach mass murder or genocide does not alter the fact that in the name of Christianity these acts have been done.

Agreed here too. Not trying to alter facts, just debating where the blame rests. I say Catholic Church is at fault, not Christianity.

Without the church there would be no Christianity, without Christianity there would be no church

here I have to disagree. Christianity existed before the Church existed, and if the Church were to disban today, and every Christian institution were to dissolve, Christianity woulod still exist as a form a belief structure people could still follow. Not sure how that relates to my argument though, unless it further shows that the religion and the Church are seperate entities.

I believe the church is an institution based on a set of values, i.e. relgion.The church enforces its values, sometimes through extreme and violent methods, as with the witch hunt.

Ofcourse I agree here also, but I would add that the values of the Church are not always in agreement with the teachings of the religion the Church claims to represent. It depends on wether you think there exists an objective Christianity, or if you think whatever the Church does at the time IS Christianity, even when it goes against the teachings of Christianity.

Whether the church was laced with extremists at the time is not the issue. The issue is that an institution based on a set of values has committed mass murder. Whether the institution misread their values is not the issue.

I thought this was the issue. I thought we were discussing wether the religion is to blame or simply the man made institution for dictating policy that was in transgression with the religion. Isn't this what we are debating?

Do you blame the institution or the set of values that this institution is based upon?

Here is the heart of the matter, isn't it. This is a good question, and I would usually blame both the values that are the drive of the problem and the people who commit the crimes based on those values. All I am saying is that the "values" the church held during the times of the inquisition, namely witches must die, were not in agreement with the values of the religion of Christianity as taught in the Bible. So while I condemn both the institution of the time, and their values, I cannot justify condemning also a religion that really did not condone the actions of the men who ran the Church. This is why it is fundamental to differentiate the values of the institution from the religion, because they are sometimes in contradiction with one another, or the values are based on a incorrect understanding of what is put forth in scripture. if you a cannot differentiate the institution from the religion, meaning if you think the policy makers dictate what the religion is and not the actual teachings of the religion, then we will not be able to agree.

So lets approach it a different way. Even if you can't make this distinction, then all you are blaming is the catholic "religion". You cannot place the blame on all of Christianity, since it was the changes in catholicism that opened the door to the witch trials. It is still not justifiable, even under these circumstances, to blame the entire religion.

And to approach it from even a different angel, say for the sake of argument you are right. The religion was to blame for the witch trials. That was the past. Now, hundreds of millions practice the religion in peace, and not only that Christians are usually the most active humanitarian workers around. So then, if they have found a way to become not only a peacfull religion, but a productive one, then how can we justify blaming modern christianity, or even claim it should be done away with? If it is not a force of good in this world, it is atleast doing more good than harm.

I feel we don't see eye to eye because I blame the values the institution is set up on, whereby you blame the institution. But either way the two are closely interwoven and cannot be separated

I just notice that soemtimes the values of the institution sometimes contridict the religion. I made my case for that earlier.

to your last statement, I would say that the catholic church is not so closley interwoven with Christianity as much as it is with it's perception of Christianity. It has it's own dogmas and beliefs outside of the religion. It has teachings of it's own that don't exist within the teachings of the religion. You cannot say that catholicism is interwoven with christian belief structure, all you can say is that it is based on it. If you insist on blaming catholicism I will not argue the point, but catholicism is not interchangable with christianity. All of christianity cannot be blamed for the policies put forth in catholicism.



I am done arguing all of the above points. There really isn't any more I can add to my arguments at this point. So if you still disagree lets try another road. If, baxter, you can demonstrate that the values that lead the church to the inquisition are not just the values upheld by it's one time administration, but are also intrigal values of the religion of Christianity, then I will declare my defeat and agree with you completely. You say the values of the catholic church are to blame, I agree. You say these values are inseperatable from the religion of Christianity, I disagree. Demonstrate it, if it is true.

 

[Raziaar]

Agreed here too. Not trying to alter facts, just debating where the blame rests. I say Catholic Church is at fault, not Christianity.

Catholics and Christians are not the same. There are very distinct teachings that differ greatly between them, even though they also have many similiarities. Catholicism and Christianity are not the same.

 

[Zorrander001]

Catholics and Christians are not the same. There are very distinct teachings that differ greatly between them, even though they also have many similiarities. Catholicism and Christianity are not the same.

Thats basically what I'm saying.

The teachings of the Bible, and the belief structure it provides, is a religion. Based on that religion, we have hundreds, possibly thousands of different institutions that hold different values, who all claim to represent the religion of the Bible. My main argument is that the values of the different institutions are not always the same values as the religion itself, and therefore the religion cannot be blamed for transgressions that were in violation of it's values, and were instead based on man made policy.

 

[Raziaar]

Thats basically what I'm saying.

The teachings of the Bible, and the belief structure it provides, is a religion. Based on that religion, we have hundreds, possibly thousands of different institutions that hold different values, who all claim to represent the religion of the Bible. My main argument is that the values of the different institutions are not always the same values as the religion itself, and therefore the religion cannot be blamed for transgressions that were in violation of it's values, and were instead based on man made policy.

Many people don't know the difference between christianity as a wholea nd catholocism as a whole. They are naive enough to take the whole catholic church rape scandal, and lump up christianity's ministers in there too. Just ignorance.


EDIT: Heck. The papacy even killed many many christians in history .

Sure... yeah sure, they're the same. /sarcasm

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Many people don't know the difference between christianity as a wholea nd catholocism as a whole. They are naive enough to take the whole catholic church rape scandal, and lump up christianity's ministers in there too. Just ignorance.


EDIT: Heck. The papacy even killed many many christians in history .

Sure... yeah sure, they're the same. /sarcasm

People lump all Catholic Priests and clergy together too, because of that. 1.1 Billion Catholics, a tiny number of priests out of the entire bundle of them did that. Has nothing to do with the religion itself or its followers.

 

[CptStern]

I wish some of you would be more specific when talking about "christianity" there are hundreds of sects ..you're doing the same thing you accuse us atheists of ...generalizing and lumping in every christian group together ...Jim Jones is not equal to mother therea

 

[Raziaar]

I wish some of you would be more specific when talking about "christianity" there are hundreds of sects ..you're doing the same thing you accuse us atheists of ...generalizing and lumping in every christian group together ...Jim Jones is not equal to mother therea

I'm not a member of any denomination. I assume I'm talking about non denominational christians. People bash christians for being simply christian, so what does it matter Stern. They don't care if they're a member of denomination or not. They lump them all together as one thing.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I wish some of you would be more specific when talking about "christianity" there are hundreds of sects ..you're doing the same thing you accuse us atheists of ...generalizing and lumping in every christian group together ...Jim Jones is not equal to mother therea

Most Christians are similar to each other and close with one another. When I talk about the ones you might find offensive, though, I say "evangelists"

Also I only accuse the activist athiests of it.

I've only ever met one of those in real life (seen plenty on TV, though)

But the majority of athiests I know of on the internet, whom I come to find out they are without even asking about it nor it relating, are those activist types.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

wish some of you would be more specific when talking about "christianity" there are hundreds of sects ..you're doing the same thing you accuse us atheists

I also accuse activist aethists -- who are pressuring to remove my ability to worship or discuss my beliefs out in my public. I dont do the same to them -- they wont do the same to me ... so long as I'm standing.

 

[KoreBolteR]

tbh, just let people get on with thier beliefs, as long as it doesnt harm any person, harm any other religion, or do any life threatening harm.

im just wondering, how can people pray for 15 hours a day.. wasting thier life imo, im sure god will get sick of people praying to him, and tell them to "live thier life".

if god exists that is.

 

[baxter]

If, baxter, you can demonstrate that the values that lead the church to the inquisition are not just the values upheld by it's one time administration, but are also intrigal values of the religion of Christianity, then I will declare my defeat and agree with you completely. You say the values of the catholic church are to blame, I agree. You say these values are inseperatable from the religion of Christianity, I disagree. Demonstrate it, if it is true.

I cannot as it is impossible to do. I admit, rather than defeat a concession, purely by the fact that what you have asked me to prove is impossible.
I have maintained throughout my postings that religion itself is to blame for acts of atrocities committed on its behave and I'm sorry I have to stand by this opinion.
I wish to say no more on this subject as I feel we are like the dog chasing its tail.
My parting comment is only that it is open to interpretation and people can and will see religion in different ways. Whether the world has benefited from religion again I’m sorry but I feel it hasn’t.
As already stated I would like to agree to disagree. :cheers

 

[baxter]

No to heck with my last posting I don't concede anything.

The values laid down by religion are responsible for many acts of violence.
My reasoning is this if you lay down a set of values that are open to misrepresentation who is at fault?, the person who misunderstands them or the values that are laid down.
Say for example you teach a child to count to ten and they can't do it and starts to get annoyed. Who is at fault, the child, you, or could it just be the very fact that you have to teach that child to count in the first place.
The very fact that religion is there and is open to misrepresentation, which in turn leads to acts of mass murder, is my entire argument.
You have laboured the fact that religion does not preach and teach violence and I agree with totally.
It is the misunderstanding and misrepresentation of religious values by institutions and individuals that, leads to extremism and eventually to acts of violence.
It is not religion or its teaching that causes this it is our misconception of religion and hence in my round about manner I think I have proved that religion breeds violent actions.
It is the simple existence of religion that was the root cause of the mass murders during the witch hunt.

 

[Raziaar]

tbh, just let people get on with thier beliefs, as long as it doesnt harm any person, harm any other religion, or do any life threatening harm.

im just wondering, how can people pray for 15 hours a day.. wasting thier life imo, im sure god will get sick of people praying to him, and tell them to "live thier life".

if god exists that is.

15 hours a day? Where do you pull that number from? I mean... with me, I only take a minute or a couple a day. I'm sure many others do to. Except maybe those who actually go to a church... or maybe the ministers perhaps who have devoted their life to the religion. Its their choice to... and i'm sure god wouldn't just tell all his ministers to 'go live your life, stop devoting yourself to me'. These people do it by choice... its what they wanted to do with their life. Is that so bad? Is that so wrong?

People could say the same thing about us gamers... to get off our ass and do other stuff in life(which most of us do, but still).

 

[Raziaar]

No to heck with my last posting I don't concede anything.

The values laid down by religion are responsible for many acts of violence.
My reasoning is this if you lay down a set of values that are open to misrepresentation who is at fault?, the person who misunderstands them or the values that are laid down.
Say for example you teach a child to count to ten and they can't do it and starts to get annoyed. Who is at fault, the child, you, or could it just be the very fact that you have to teach that child to count in the first place.
The very fact that religion is there and is open to misrepresentation, which in turn leads to acts of mass murder, is my entire argument.
You have laboured the fact that religion does not preach and teach violence and I agree with totally.
It is the misunderstanding and misrepresentation of religious values by institutions and individuals that, leads to extremism and eventually to acts of violence.
It is not religion or its teaching that causes this it is our misconception of religion and hence in my round about manner I think I have proved that religion breeds violent actions.
It is the simple existence of religion that was the root cause of the mass murders during the witch hunt.

Much of the world would not be the same right now without religion. The ancient greeks, one of the most influential civilizations on earth, developed in many ways because of their religion. It brought the people close, and history supports this as a proof.

 

[baxter]

Much of the world would not be the same right now without religion. The ancient greeks, one of the most influential civilizations on earth, developed in many ways because of their religion. It brought the people close, and history supports this as a proof.

I couldn't agree more and I and not saying religion is a bad thing and I am not anti religion. My posting was about the misconceptions and manipulation of religion to excuse acts of violence.

 

[Zorrander001]

So now it's not the values of the religion that are at fault, now it's that someone can misinterperate them? Wow. I guess we should blame the law when a criminal said he misinterpreted it, and let the criminal go free. That is basically what happened here. The church committed attrocities in the name of the religion, they did so by going against the value of the religion, and the religion is to blame for not being clear enough. Right?

Because scripture such as this is obviously not very explicate:

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. "
"But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you"
"But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again"
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we also have forgive those who trespass against us."
"if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

Yes, I can see how this can be easily misinterperated to "But **** the witches, burn them all." This scripture is so inexplicate that we can't blame the people who trangress it, we can only blame the scripture for allowing itsef to be transgressed. It all makes sense now. :|


Yea, we are jus going to have to stop, this isn't going anywhere. Believe what you will.