Return to Mana update

Sulkdodds

Sulkdodds

The Freeman
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Return to Mana is a beautiful-looking and rather cute RPG based on the ancient Secret of Mana series, detailing the player's struggle to rediscover the 'secret of mana' - some kind of magical mystical energy force - and fight off the ancient Empire which has risen to make war on the peaceful Kingdom once again (interesting subtext of pro-monarchism there).[br]The screenshots below show that...well, they show that the Mana boys probably need to work on their character models a little - unless they want to create the most disturbing horror game since Clive Barker's. But the environments are very nice. [br]
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[br]The wolf shall henceforth be known as 'crazy-eyes'. To be fair, everything about the mod (bar the interesting character design) is looking pretty spanky. Find out more by clicking here.[br]EDITED for more media:
Click me!
No, click me!
 
Looks cool.

The woman should be called "crazy eyes".
 
It looks quite nice except for the character models.. they really need to work on those, or get a new modeller.
 
The models are great but the textures are haha crap ;D
I think it's cool if they keep all characters with.. crazy eyes, would make me laugh everytime i play it D:
 
quit your trolling. any negative comments are trolling round these parts, and damn sulk, was that a newspost or an editorial on their character models?


honestly, the thing i think is the problem with what ya'll are talking about isn't the models, but more like the binding of the model to the skelaton. but this may be for certain reasons.

I commend them though, i don't think ive seen a character model with the segmented eyes, that apparently i would assume are animatable. the poly counts are very low as you can see in the hands but maybe they need this for gameplay.



this mod is cool though, i like the character models, esp the grey shaded one. This mod is doing a fine job.


remember folks. modding is amateurs trying to make a game. they are learning and imo doing a fine job. everyone gets better with practice, but still, I think its a tad classless to always see people trashing work that mod teams show. Constructive criticism is good, but 'models suck" or " well, they show that the Mana boys probably need to work on their character models a little " doesn't give a bit of constructive crits, and its a tad late anyways since the models are already ingame.
 
"Crazy-Eyes" is the name of one of the models in Zombie Master :D

I like the looks of this. It's able to show shots with models existing in-game, rather than renders in Max. Which means they're on the road to doing something good.

-Angry Lawyer
 
Polyguns seems to have ignored the fact that I was pretty positive about the rest of the mod. Not to mention describing it as 'beautiful'.
Models are bad.
This is constructive criticism.
It is constructive because it informs the team that their models are bad.
Everything else is good.
This is not bashing.
It is not bashing because I am acknowledging that everything else is pretty good.
Modding is by amateurs.
This does not give them the right to be universally praised by all and to not be criticised.
I have a right to my opinion.
What am I going to say? Brilliant models! That's just being stupid and hypey.
When most newsposts say 'wonderful media' or 'wow, beautiful!' this is opinion - only positive. Negative is allowed too?
Stop your stupid bickery vendetta against this site. I don't give a shit when you say HL2 is stupid - others might, but that's their business.
You're like Borgasm used to be when he constantly told newbies not to post 1000-post celebration threads, because he was bitter as hell. Except he's cool now.
 
polyguns said:
remember folks. modding is amateurs trying to make a game. they are learning and imo doing a fine job. everyone gets better with practice, but still, I think its a tad classless to always see people trashing work that mod teams show. Constructive criticism is good, but 'models suck" or " well, they show that the Mana boys probably need to work on their character models a little " doesn't give a bit of constructive crits, and its a tad late anyways since the models are already ingame.
Click to expand...

I'm interested to know how you can have constructive criticism without the criticism.
 
polyguns said:
quit your trolling. any negative comments are trolling round these parts, and damn sulk, was that a newspost or an editorial on their character models?


honestly, the thing i think is the problem with what ya'll are talking about isn't the models, but more like the binding of the model to the skelaton. but this may be for certain reasons.

I commend them though, i don't think ive seen a character model with the segmented eyes, that apparently i would assume are animatable. the poly counts are very low as you can see in the hands but maybe they need this for gameplay.



this mod is cool though, i like the character models, esp the grey shaded one. This mod is doing a fine job.


remember folks. modding is amateurs trying to make a game. they are learning and imo doing a fine job. everyone gets better with practice, but still, I think its a tad classless to always see people trashing work that mod teams show. Constructive criticism is good, but 'models suck" or " well, they show that the Mana boys probably need to work on their character models a little " doesn't give a bit of constructive crits, and its a tad late anyways since the models are already ingame.
Click to expand...

Look, no one likes to see people bashing modders, cuz we all know they work hard and deserve mad props. But... People don't pull punches in the real world. It's better for people to hear "that's ugly" and learn how to deal with blunt honesty, than for the community to put on kid gloves when dealing with modders. If amateurs want to become professionals they need to develop a thick skin, because lord knows the competition is tough and the professional world isn't all fluffy bunnies and giggles.

Anyway, props to this mod crazy eyes or no crazy eyes.
 
ive been through about 10 years of art classes, and taught a few myself. "models are bad" is not consrtuctive AT ALL. To think you can honestly say that from a textured screenshot shows a severe lack of ability to critique 3d.

the images, do not show model topology. you may see whats an awsome model in a screenshot, or a max or maya render, but the model may be 20 000 tris, where the verts don't line up or aren't merged so you would get gaps in the mesh when trying to smooth or rigid bind etc. the fact that those models are ingame and posed, shows that they are to a degree good models cause they actually pos and evidently didn';t crash the game. you may not like their style though. style is something subjective that has little to do with the quality of the model. for some reason people in the community love hyperrealistic photoskins like hl2, someone tries to do something a tad more cartoony to fit a certain style and they are called 'bad"

but really i think its more of a binding issue, look at how one womans boob is so much larger then the other. i doubt she was modeled that way.

when you say something constructive, you are giving positive advice. when you say "models are bad" thats hardly anything other then an opinion. if you said " the hands could use some more polygons and reworked topology especially around the fingertips and knuckle areas" then that would be constructive criticism.

saying people have bad models in the newspost is just kinda messed up. ive been there, ive prolly had 20 of my models displayed on the front page of hl2.net over the past 2 years. ( one reason why i come even though i challenge valve) when your modding you spend days working on projects, one character can literally take 20-30 hours of development to get finished. when you release to the public, you get all anxious to see what people say. i feel bad for the dude that made that, cause when he checks the nesposts, and sees someone degrading his work in the post, therefore setting the tone for most poster afterwards to say 'bad models", its gonna be perplexing for him, cause there not bad models.

just my opinion sulk. being constructive is one thing, being demeaning is another. mod updates should be seen as a celebration of a group of guys bringing you all free content

angry lawyer is 1000% right in his comment, but hes also a modder, so he knows the degree of work it takes to get to that stage.
 
Finger said:
Look, no one likes to see people bashing modders, cuz we all know they work hard and deserve mad props. But... People don't pull punches in the real world. It's better for people to hear "that's ugly" and learn how to deal with blunt honesty, than for the community to put on kid gloves when dealing with modders. If amateurs want to become professionals they need to develop a thick skin, because lord knows the competition is tough and the professional world isn't all fluffy bunnies and giggles.

Anyway, props to this mod crazy eyes or no crazy eyes.
Click to expand...



just read above post. I know exactly what your saying. ive been kicked out of crits for being too "harsh" but i was constructive. talked about perspective and scale :p.

alot of crits will happen in dev rooms, but at the same time, theres alot you see esp when things are ingame, won't change no matter what you do. I think this is the first or second ingame character screen theyve shown. every character they make will have different meshes, different animations, etc. this isn't insurgency mod where you have one marine model, one insurgency, several different additions so you can reuse skelatons animations and skin weights on everything.

honestly though ya'll, im not a bad guy. i dont like steam cause im 56k, and bitter, and i always saw a certain degree of disrespectful comments towards mod work that i thought were unjustified and useless. if ya can do better, do better. don't slam work, help work.
 
hmm, cant think of any constructive crits... o! maybe more polys in around the eyes and mouth. and the eyes deserve a better texture... but keep up the nice work. and yes polyguns that was well put.

-dodo
 
polyguns said:
if ya can do better, do better. don't slam work, help work.
Click to expand...


Does the same apply to you with your criticism of Valve? :)
 
poor form

Sulkdodds said:
Models are bad.
This is constructive criticism.
It is constructive because it informs the team that their models are bad.
Click to expand...
That's not constructive, it's just mean. The front page of news site isn't the place for such bashing, you're tainting peoples view of the mod before they get a chance to make up their own minds.

Unless you have some pointers to give them on how to improve their models, why don't you just stick to reporting the news?
 
on topic. I would love to see some offset mapping on that road. Actually the offset and paralax mapping that praz uses on dreamscape would be absolutly fabulous on this mod. sometims it tends to make things look more cartoony, but that would fit the theme

----pi, buddy, I was gonna respond, but if you want we can do this over pm, no need to get off topic in their media thread
 
about the wolf and the texture on it. FUR IS HARD to do. ive never done it very well myself using several techniques. the eyes aren't properly placed though
 
To simply say that models are bad isn't constructive. However, to show how they are bad, and give helpful tips on improvement, is.
 
JNightshade said:
To simply say that models are bad isn't constructive. However, to show how they are bad, and give helpful tips on improvement, is.
Click to expand...
Polyguns said:
when you say something constructive, you are giving positive advice. when you say "models are bad" thats hardly anything other then an opinion. if you said " the hands could use some more polygons and reworked topology especially around the fingertips and knuckle areas" then that would be constructive criticism.
Click to expand...

Erm, no. Sometimes you can't suggest things to improve something but that doesn't mean you should lie about it. I can't play the violin, but if someone plays something that sounds awful, and I tell them that it's bad; you can't say that it's unconstructive because I can't tell them how to improve how they play.

Anyway, the "Models could do with improvement" is relative to the whole mod. So it is a constructive way of suggestion an improvement to a mod. Even if Sulk (or anyone else) doesn't know the technical details of how to improve it.

Polyguns said:
if ya can do better, do better. don't slam work, help work.
Click to expand...

And that's just daft an' all. Should I not be able to say what I think about a film just because I can't direct? Why would that even make sense. You have the ability to judge something even if you lack the ability to do better.

polyguns said:
the fact that those models are ingame and posed, shows that they are to a degree good models
Click to expand...

You're confusing technically valid models with models that actually look good. It could work perfectly in the game, but if it looks awful someone is going to say so.
 
Teddy said:
That's not constructive, it's just mean. The front page of news site isn't the place for such bashing, you're tainting peoples view of the mod before they get a chance to make up their own minds.

Unless you have some pointers to give them on how to improve their models, why don't you just stick to reporting the news?
Click to expand...

The truth is mean sometimes, not to mention nescissary, the characters are scary looking - they need to be fixed to match up to the quality of everything else in the mod so far.
 
I don't really like the models either... As for constructive criticism:

The first NPC model (female) looks... off. The texture looks like it's pretty low resolution, and the lines between the lips and the surrounding skin are WAY too defined, making the lips look like they're not really part of the face. Same with the darker flesh around the eyesockets too. Speaking of her eyes, what the hell is up with them? They look like they've shrunk back into her skull. Also, it could just be the angle or the way the model is posed, but is one of her breasts larger than the other?
 
I think it's pretty constructive to say their models look bad. It alerts them to the fact that their models look bad, which is useful because they are aware of an issue. In a similar way, now that all of you have given me 'constructive criticism' I'll be sure not to post my own opinion at all except when it's a positive one in future (I'm allowed to say something looks beautiful but not that something needs work?).

Everyone's acting like I slammed the mod and bashed it with a Hammer of Bashing +5. I didn't.

me said:
To be fair, everything about the mod (bar the interesting character design) is looking pretty spanky.
Click to expand...
That's not bashing. What, this is not being supportive of mods? Pointing out flaws while praising success is not being supportive?

Like I said, it's supposedly okay for me to say 'this mod looks wonderful' but not okay for me to say 'this mod looks wonderful, apart from the models, which need a little work'. I can express a positive opinion but not a slightly negative one. :|

Teddy said:
you're tainting peoples view of the mod before they get a chance to make up their own minds.
Click to expand...
I don't think people are going to take everything I say as fact. If they think the models look bad they'd say it, and if they thought they looked great they'd say it regardless of my opinion there. It's not like as soon as I state what I think everybody will go 'yes, I agree'.

EDIT: Not to mention that the first thing I say about it is that it's 'beautiful'.

So let's have a poll: in future should I

- completely leave opinion out of news posts? This would mean I would not be allowed to say 'it looks great' or 'cool new media' or anything like that.
- Seperate my opinion from the newspost main (ie, opinion goes under the pictures)?
 
I think you should stay exactly the way you've been posting. I like your style. It's only one winely little person who been saying most of this anyway.

On the mod side. Improve those models and you've got yourselves a very interesting mod. Keep going at it guys.
 
polyguns said:
----pi, buddy, I was gonna respond, but if you want we can do this over pm, no need to get off topic in their media thread
Click to expand...

It's entirely on-topic.
 
Not again..... So many RPG's have the Fight 'evil' empire thing.

Why can't it be: "Conquer in the name of the Empire!" ?
 
Hey Guys I'm Mobiud of the RTM deve...*Ducks the yelling*

Nice that your talking about our farm models but I feel i have to bring up one point. You wont see those people in game. With one modeler we cant really wait till every model for a map is done. So for scripting and testing purposes we throw together stand-ins.

We have two modelers on our team. One is working through the humans which have to be of much higher quality cause you have all seen humans before. If the dont look right in a world were your brain thinks they should, it really gets annoying. Our other modeler, who is slightly less talented, works on monsters, you have never seen a Syth before, so we can get away with other stuff.

The Shots you saw were the current run through of the conversation system.



Also RTM continues to seek talented modders to add to our humble team.
 
Im my history of making mods i've learned that I wish for the days of making a generic urban mod. The map requirments and extra techniques that have had to be developed to make our maps work took almost 8 months. Volumetric grass, waterfalls, folliage that does not yeild 2 fps. Thankfully we are in the content crunch phase. With 2 great mappers, 2 impressive moddlers, our texture guy (who textured everthing by hand, and yes i mean everything), and our coders (Hey bob, go ahead and turn a linear game into a sandbox) means we have the talent to get this done. Like you guys I hate any game that tells us that they will give the moon and it ends up crap


With your continued support, in a year or two, we will have you a 3 player hackfest that looks pretty, has an intresting story, and is fun to play.
 
What an impressively large weapon you have.
 
can I use that huge sword to decapitate the cutesy models found on the first page? cuz that would be satisfying :)



looks nice
 
The scariest thing there is that he kept his bowtie on.
 
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