Return To Mana Updates

[Mountain Man]

As we will release the Total Conversion for free, we won't run into copyright infringements.

Releasing work for free is not a loophole for getting around copyright and intellectual property laws. This has been proven countless times with similiar projects. If Square comes after them, the "free release" defense will offer no legal protection.

Square can send us a kind request of stopping the work, but we will continue because fanart isn't illegal

This really, really sucks. Now I know this mod will never see the light of day. Do they honestly think they can thumb their nose at these corporations without consequence?

I really wish talented mod teams like this one would come up with their own ideas instead of "borrowing" from existing properties thus guarenteeing their projects are destined for failure.

 

[outlive]

give me ONE example of free avaible mod/tc, etc. that has been successfully sued for releasing their work to the public...

i take a wild guess - you can't because it's not illegal and therefor you can't prohibit it if no other working point is avaible such as calumny, plagiarism in financial terms, etc...

I can only repeat myself - there is no sane law on earth which can stop a fan from doing fanart, that's all it is

 

[outlive]

In that case, here's something that I wish would make it into this mod.
In the original Secret of Mana for the SNES (with the boy and two girls) each weapon could be leveled up to 8 levels and for each level there would be one cool super attack if you held the attack button long enough.

for this and other questions, please be welcomed to our forum as you will find a recent, extensive interview in it

 

[kleinluka]

I have to say I am very impressed with this.
This is very original art-wise. Looking forward to see more soon!

 

[Dr. Freeman]

its definitely going to be interesting to see how the gameplay works out
and of course i was a fan of the Mana series on SNES.. and own Legend of Mana for PS2 :thumbs:

definitely keeping my eyes on what goes on with this mod.

 

[outlive]

I have to say I am very impressed with this.
This is very original art-wise. Looking forward to see more soon!

im pleased to hear this from another texture artist

 

[outlive]

i would like to point something out, on which i base my stance:

"Fair Use" - see this: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted material should be avoided unless the doctrine of “fair use” would clearly apply to the situation.

which it does - we recreate a world based on the original work - we are no recreating the original game...
it's the same as writing a new (noncommerical) fan fiction, based on the star trek series - you can't sue somebody who does...

therefore its not illegal to do fanwork, but you don't hold the "rights" to it - as long as you don't claim it's entirely your work, it falls under the term "fair use"

end of story

 

[xiphrex]

Well I hope you are right because I remember when the quake3 dragonball z mod was being made (bid for power) it took years and then right near its release, the producers and owners of the dragonball Z franchise were not happy with the mod using DBZ material and names, so the mod was changed completely, to be some anime style mod based on something similar to DBZ, but character names were different, characters were different, map names were changed, new maps were made not based on dbz.

Basically if I recall it took another year for it to be released, all because of copyright infringement to do with a mod that was totally non-profitable.

But maybe things have changed...

 

[bbyybb]

I think if you are going for a more cartoony world then simply the textures a bit, but if you are going for a more realistic realised worlds than the original games had then one or two textures may need some tweaking.

Otherwise this is an impressive map, it is a great achievement by your mods mapper and he/she must be comended. It doesn't look like HL2 which is a good thing in that it is settings its own style.

Their website has another image that wasn't included in the news article. They are also at a higher resolution. Go to the media section.

http://returntomana.mods.de/eng/index2.htm

Cheers,
bbyybb.

 

[Some_God]

Those pics look awesome.

 

[outlive]

thx you pointed that out...

the news post consisted of 4 high quality ingame shots, 2 enemy renders and 1 concept drawing...

here are the high quality shots:

http://returntomana.mods.de/images/maps/potos1.jpg
http://returntomana.mods.de/images/maps/potos2.jpg
http://returntomana.mods.de/images/maps/potos3.jpg
http://returntomana.mods.de/images/maps/potos4.jpg

 

[dassbaba]

definetly some good stuff

the enviroment is amazing, IMO

 

[Mountain Man]

give me ONE example of free avaible mod/tc, etc. that has been successfully sued for releasing their work to the public...

The Middle-earth Mod, a total conversion for Morrowind, is one relevant example that I know of. Now they weren't sued, but they did voluntarily cease production because they didn't have permission to use the IP.

Here's another one: The Chrono Resurrection Project, a Chrono Trigger remake, was sent a cease and desist letter by Square Enix and they were forced to shut the project down.

There are countless other examples, but I think the two I've provided above are sufficient to support my point: These idiots either need to create an original game that is inspired by Secret of Mana (without using any copyrighted IP) or they're going to have to watch in frustration as all their hard work goes down the legal drain.

It would be fine to use a battle system similiar to Secret of Mana and base the game world on a similiar concept, but the minute you start using identifiable images or names, you're going to run into legal trouble.

"Fair Use" - see this: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted material should be avoided unless the doctrine of “fair use” would clearly apply to the situation.

Sorry, but fair use does not apply. "Fair use" would be creating something for your own personal use. "Fair use" most certainly does not cover instances of releasing that work to the public.

For instance, it would be fair use to invite some friends over to your house to watch a movie you've rented. It would not be fair use to set up a movie screen outside your house and show the movie during your neighborhood block party (making it essentially a public screening).

I say again, "fair use" only applies to private, personal use. It does not cover situations that involve the general public.

 

[outlive]

well, well - the Middle-earth Mod did stop on their own, so no discussion about them
and the Chrono Resurrection Project - their fault was, that their work was partitial recreation of the original Chrono Trigger game.
They tried to use this work as an industry demo.

Therefor the "Fair use" doctrine can't be applied there and an eventual lawcase would bring them down in the end...

i insist you to get your facts straight and inform yourself about @ www.copyright.gov - don't spread myths and create panic around the other fans...

These idiots either need to create an original game that is inspired by Secret of Mana (without using any copyrighted IP) or they're going to have to watch in frustration as all their hard work goes down the legal drain

i'm one of the developers of Return to Mana and i would thank you for not calling me an idiot

 

[outlive]

"Fair use" would be creating something for your own personal use. "Fair use" most certainly does not cover instances of releasing that work to the public

wrong - please get your facts straight at the site i provided you

 

[Angry Lawyer]

I'm sorry to say, but we lawyers are assholes. Using the IP and saying 'we're not breaking a law due to the fact we're not making money' is about as effective as creating a site full of pirated software and saying 'we're not breaking laws because I didn't expect people to download it'.

I'd honestly go for asking the folks whether you're allowed to use it, it'll save on the tears.

If you fart-ass about with their idea, what's to stop anybody else creating a mod about it? And then, what's to stop another company producing a retail product based on it? That's why the laws exist.

I'm not very good with IP law, but you're not covered unless you get permission.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[outlive]

I'm not very good with IP law, but you're not covered unless you get permission

When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted material should be avoided unless the doctrine of “fair use” would clearly apply to the situation.

as we clearly fall into the fair use doctrine - we don't get headaches

 

[Mountain Man]

wrong - please get your facts straight at the site i provided you

"Fair use" is specifically defined as follows:

"...the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright."

I do not think your TC falls into any of those categories. Furthermore, it is not impracticable for you to obtain permission. After all, how hard is it to make a phone call or write a letter? Rather, I think you just don't like the answer you'll inevitably receive. You really think you'll be able to beat Square Enix in court with your defense? Seriously, have you guys even bothered consulting a lawyer?

Look, I'm only telling you this because I would love a mod of this quality to actually see release, but like similiar projects in the past, you're playing fast and loose with copyright and intellectual property laws and it's not a matter of if you'll be shutdown but when.

 

[Wolv]

Here's a short list of MOD's that are banned:
The Middle-Earth Mod
Aliens Quake mod
Duke It Out In Quake

There's various resources available on what to look out for as far as copyright is involved.

Summary:

If you're afraid to ask, that probably answers your question if it's right to do.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

The thing is, it's not impractical to contact them - I'm sure the original copyright owner is about. Square/Enix still exist, no? And they have an E-Mail address? Apathy is not a defense against this.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[The Dark Elf]

When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted material should be avoided unless the doctrine of “fair use” would clearly apply to the situation.

as we clearly fall into the fair use doctrine - we don't get headaches

Have you actually tried to get permission? I mean properly tried, or did you just do a quick google search, give up and decide to throw fair use around as an excuse.

1) You don't have permission

2) you don't own the rights

3) fair use isn't going to protect you

Granted your mod looks interesting, but you don't have the right to make it, simple as that.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

To clarify...

Quoting Wikipedia:

Rights of copyright holder
A copyright holder typically has exclusive rights:

to make and sell copies of the work (including, typically, electronic copies)
to import or export the work
to make derivative works
to publicly perform/display the work
to sell or assign these rights to others
What is meant by the phrase "exclusive right" is that the copyright holder and only the copyright holder is allowed to do these things; everyone else is prohibited from doing them without the copyright holder's consent.

(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright).

You guys fall foul of the third point.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[outlive]

Have you actually tried to get permission?

yes - we contacted Square Enix Ltd. - their reply was clear
as they informed us that "derivative works" are prohibited, which we are not

you can argue about the point of our "literary reference" (which Reterun to Mana is in basics) to the mana universe...
we offered Square of all references like names and we would happily change a few so if we get in further contact with Square, such things can be arranged

 

[The Dark Elf]

yes - we contacted Square Enix Ltd. - their reply was clear
as they informed us that "derivative works" are prohibited, which we are not

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=derivative work

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=derives

"To trace the origin or development of (a word)." which yours does, as its traced back to the original which your working from


So yes, yes you are.. Hence they made it clear to you that you can't do it, and you continued to anyway, you can bet your ass this one is gonna get closed down now cause your actually going against what they said.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Your mod is derived from their idea, no? Are not the locations similar? Are not the characters similar? Did you not say yourself that it's a fan-based *sequel* to the series?

But you say their reply was clear - what exactly was their reply? You might want to post it on here if it proves you right, or on your website to stop threads ending up like this.

-Angry Lawyer

Edit: Beaten to it.

 

[Mountain Man]

they informed us that "derivative works" are prohibited, which we are not

From your site:

"Return to Mana: Legacy of the eight Elements" is an unofficial sequel to the Seiken Densetsu/Secret of Mana Series...

Isn't "unofficial sequel" just another way of saying "derivative work"?

I ask again, have you guys even bothered consulting a lawyer, or do you assume your own (limited) understanding of the relevant laws is enough?

 

[Mountain Man]

...you can bet your ass this one is gonna get closed down now cause your actually going against what they said.

Not only that, they just got a ton of publicity thanks to halflife2.net which will be sure to attract unwanted legal attention.

 

[outlive]

to shorten things up (as i have other things to do right now) - we don't want to leave the impression of beeing comfortable with the situation as it is

we are in contact with square enix and we will also want to asure you that we will take each step very carefully to provide you with a Total Conversion the mod community can be proud of

sorry, if i stepped on a few toes a bit - i know about the copyright law, as i'm an designer myself...thx for the awesome interest in us and the tremendous reply's a recieved on the copyright issue

 

[Dieblein]

Hey folks. Just want to excuse all the mess here and want to make some things clear.

Im Dieblein, the Leader of the mod.
We absolutley understand that we dont have the right to use copyrighted material of Squaresoft. The only text bringing a direct connection between us and Secret of Mana is the one you quoted already on the homepage. And Im going to remove it.

We are using Som as a source of inspiration for a new adventure with new characters and only new locations. You can compare it with counterstrike and the copyright on the weapons. Noone cares that the ak47 is named cv47. And its mostly obvious that this weapon IS the ak47 and noone tries to punch money out of valve for that.
Thats just the same thing for us. The only thing getting us in trouble are the people asking around wether its legal or not. If noone would trouble then noone would sue. That is the reason. Squaresoft does not care if some game elements in another game may be similar to theirs. But Squaresoft hates it when people jump around, point their louzy fingers on the project and yell "haha look they are making a fool out of you"

So please accept that we are not attempting to interfear with any of Squaresofts rights for this is a complete unique project. Thanks folks

Greets
Dieblein

 

[Mountain Man]

sorry, if i stepped on a few toes a bit...

And sorry I called you guys "idiots". It's just I hate seeing projects with such potential run legally afoul (I was particularly disappointed when the Middle-earth Mod closed up shop).

thx for the awesome interest in us and the tremendous reply's a recieved on the copyright issue

Please get the copyright stuff straightened out, though my advice is better safe than sorry. Save yourselves future heartache now and create original locations, characters, weapons, etc. To my knowledge, things like the battle system and interface are fair-game, however. Make your TC a tribute to the gameplay of Secret of Mana and not a tribute to the actual game content.

That said, your project looks awesome and I can't wait to play it. Best of luck to you and your team.

 

[riles]

it reminds me of what its supposed to be. secret of mana 1.5. the trees are supposed to look like that.

 

[ferment]

Whatever "alpha" means, this looks pretty awesome. Like some of the console fantasy RPG's I used to play. Reminds me a lot of Zelda 64 when you were in Link's village.

 

[RabidJester]

With such creative minds at work on this project, I just don't see why the project couldn't come up with thier own world to work from.

I guess that's my only issue with things. Otherwise things look great.

 

[johnnypoopoopant]

wow looks nice

 

[gh0st]

Looks hot! Ive never played or even heard of this Mana stuff, but that looks really good, very creative. Much like World of Warcraft, and why it is leagues apart from the competition. Your environment is class, nice job.

 

[madca7`]

looks nice

 

[exmx]

WOW! That's some really nice looking screenshots! I hope the game plays as good as it looks! :rolling:

 

[The Silhouette]

looks really good, it does look similiar to Fable...i think someone should make a Fable mod (legal or not ) since Fable was gonna be on PC but got cancelled.

 

[polyguns]

i love this mod, its gonna pwn, looks entirely custom 2, they sure are whipping out the stuff. it'll be a nice change from other mods

 

[Mister_Pie]

It looks amazing! I don't know what some of you are complaining about.

But yeah, I hope thes guys are able to sidestep the copyright issue. I've seen many a free-mod (Star Wars mods come to mind) get shut down before, despite being free.