Revolution vs Evolution

H

Hunchback

Guest
Here's the thing - I'm hoping that HL2 will dissapoint me....here's why.

All the revolutionary games released on the PC (Wolf 3D, Quake, Deus Ex, Black & White etc) create a model in which later games in a similar vein improve upon and explore. This does not necessarily make them the best example of their type (re: doom over wolf,) only the first and most striking. After a few years of a sucessful model being honed to its capabilities, there comes another title, another progression, that re-invigorates the genre, raising the bar again only to further be imitated and improved until the next revolutionary game comes along.

The original Half-life was a revolutionary game, so much so that even 5/6 years on its gameplay mechanics such as (semi) interactive set-pieces are still being used in games today (Call of Duty). But the thing about creating a game that's so far ahead of the rest, in terms of scope and ideas, is that it also highlights its own limitations. In Half-life this can be seen in the multiple Barney's and scientists, the 'old-style' Xen levels, its restrictive linerarity of the plot...

...And so HL2 is going to come out in a few months, and hopefully it's going to blow us all away. But because it's promising to be the first 'next-generation' fps (D3 promising i think to be the greatest 'old style' fps) then HL2 is going to have a few things wrong with it, or at least suggest further areas of improvement that no doubt other games (including HL3) will address. If it didn't it wouldn't be the revolutionary game we've all been waiting 6 years for.

And so I guess the point of my post is this - what area's of HL2 will suggest improvement?

While it's obviously difficult to say much about it until the game comes out - my worry is that from the looks of things, HL2's story is about 10 x as intricate than it's orginal, the supporting characters have increased in both number and depth, the facial animations look to set a new era in emotional impact for the gamer....and yet Gordon is still, to all inents and purposes, a mute.

I've heard the reasons for this - so that the gamer can feel greater identification with the character s/he's playing- but i wonder whether having a silent main character throughout such an epic and involving story will just feel....stupid. Not only that but restrictive to the story and ultimately to the player's involvement in the game. Choosing dialogue from a seletion, or hearing my character speak 'without' me, has never detracted from my involvment in other games before - why should it in a fps?

Anyway rant over - what do you all think?

Cheers,

d
 
Hearing every line of dialouge from that guy in Far Cry annoyed me to no end. Oh how woeful that was!!

While there are great games with your character talking i don't see it as an issue at all. In fact some of my favourite games of all time have silent characters, where the developer has let you take the roll instead of forcing a pre-disposed personality onto the character you're supposed to play. This is why i think Far Cry sucked tremendously. The main character was a complete wanker which made the experience frustrating.
 
I don't care about how revolutionary or great it's gonna be, there will ALWAYS be things that can be improved upon.....

So just release the game already Valve :thumbs:
 
What I think right now is that Half-Life 2 will be an amazing game, yet, when Half-Life 3 comes around, it will also be able improve upon it's predecessor with liquid and gas physics.

Liquid, Solid, and Gas. The 3 states of matter. Half-Life 2 only addresses 1/3. 33.33333333%. Trust me, there'll still be things to improve upon, there always will be.

NEway, for the whole character voice situation, it'll make the player feel more as if they're actually a PART of the game, rather than, if Gordon spoke, it would leave off the feeling in which that you were just watching a movie in which you had limited control of the story.

Si?
 
I'm just going to go off topic for a second,

Rafa change your sig to ye old english

"English Mother****er, doest thou speaketh!!!" hahah
 
...mr fusion - yeah i agree...writing bad dialogue can ruin a game and irritate gamer's in the process...but what if it's done well? Grim Fandago, Anachronox, KOTR, all had dialogue that wasn't actually ashamed of being 'adult' and intelligent.

My point again - because of HL2's interactivity inn physics and the like promoting multiple approaches to almost every obstacle around you, the only thing that's NOT offering similar freedom is the silence of Gordon. A game needs a structure sure, and one that is always going to be linear no matter how many choices are offered, i just wonder whether the story will be so involving that not being able enage verbally in all the conversations going on around and about you, won't get equally as frustrating as bad dialogue, that it won't be as fully involving as it could be...

oh and another thought, if there's an expansion pack with Alyx as the playable character...i reckon Valve might test the water's with written dialogue...it would be strange to play her mute after seeing her talk so much in HL2....

cheers,

d
 
Welcome to the forums!
Firstly, I think that the bar for a story-orientated, narrative FPS will be raised. Valve's idea of interactive scenes promises to not only tell the story in a perfectly natural way but also let the player experience action/drama sequences more complex, believable and exciting than any before; FPS's have recycled and redone walking and shooting gameplay (and stealth nowadays) for ages while other mediums like movies have had amazing chases, rescues, kidnaps, stunts, traps, escapes, showdowns, etc. It sometimes seems it would take a revolution to get developers out of the 'give them a few levels, badguys and guns and they will be happy' mentality.

Secondly, I think that Gordon not talking in a game is not a huge problem as it would be in a movie because games are (and should be) becoming a different art form. You are supposed to be the main character and supposed to be reacting directly to the virtual world; your thoughts and actions are your response to the world. I think the biggest difference is that you aren't supposed to be following a story but rather living it. There is also the understanding that Gordon isn't ACTUALLY not saying anything, the voice is just not there because it is supposed to be your voice and your reaction. Finally I think that if (when) you finish the game, you will feel different from having played it and that alone should mean a lot.
 
I don't think dialogue coming out of a character i can't see would be such a good idea....
 
rabid weazel....You're right about games being different than movies, that we should feel a PART of the action rather than just its spectator....though could'nt it be argued that becuase you are able to sculpt your character with responses and the like - such as in Deus Ex - that you feel more a part of the game, more fully intergrated with the character.

I'd also say that unless a games technical achievements are fully intergrated into the gameplay, then it's near-useless as far as i'm concerend. Graphics will always get better, but it seems to me that it's always focused upon to the detrement of the gameplay...which is why most of us buy them in the first place right?

cheers,

d
 
Mr-Fusion said:
I'm just going to go off topic for a second,

Rafa change your sig to ye old english

"English Mother****er, doest thou speaketh!!!" hahah

Nah, I'll sound old.. :x
 
re: the 'next generation' of games

I think undeniably, games will continue to become more like interactive movies and less like pacman. After HL2 people will start to realize that creating 3D shooting galleries like Call of Duty (not that it isn't fun) is not the only way to make a first person game. HL2 will demonstrate that it's the full _experience_ of the game, characters, drama, interactivity (including physics), and immersion in the game world that excites people.
 
thx for the reply styloid...it's always amazed me that for a medium that was essentially text-based for so long, that it's taken the amount of time it has to get back to providing 'real' storylines...i think everyone got so excited about graphics for a bit....maybe it's not as important not...

and on another note - while i think that the comparsion btw movies and games is an obvious one, i think that its relied upon too much, mostly at the gaming community's disadvantage....they should'nt make games like movies, but make them like games....INTERACTIVITY - that's the one difference btw the two...and i think the more games advance, the more they'll rival the movie industry - didn't the gaming revenue worldwide last year eceed that of the film industry? And anyway - why watch when you can do?

How old is the industry? 20 years? We're comparable to the silent film period of movies...here's hoping that HL2 is the first 'talkie' to start a whole new movement...

cheers,

d
 
Hunchback said:
Here's the thing - I'm hoping that HL2 will dissapoint me....here's why.

All the revolutionary games released on the PC (Wolf 3D, Quake, Deus Ex, Black & White etc) create a model in which later games in a similar vein improve upon and explore. This does not necessarily make them the best example of their type (re: doom over wolf,) only the first and most striking. After a few years of a sucessful model being honed to its capabilities, there comes another title, another progression, that re-invigorates the genre, raising the bar again only to further be imitated and improved until the next revolutionary game comes along.

The original Half-life was a revolutionary game, so much so that even 5/6 years on its gameplay mechanics such as (semi) interactive set-pieces are still being used in games today (Call of Duty). But the thing about creating a game that's so far ahead of the rest, in terms of scope and ideas, is that it also highlights its own limitations. In Half-life this can be seen in the multiple Barney's and scientists, the 'old-style' Xen levels, its restrictive linerarity of the plot...

...And so HL2 is going to come out in a few months, and hopefully it's going to blow us all away. But because it's promising to be the first 'next-generation' fps (D3 promising i think to be the greatest 'old style' fps) then HL2 is going to have a few things wrong with it, or at least suggest further areas of improvement that no doubt other games (including HL3) will address. If it didn't it wouldn't be the revolutionary game we've all been waiting 6 years for.

And so I guess the point of my post is this - what area's of HL2 will suggest improvement?

While it's obviously difficult to say much about it until the game comes out - my worry is that from the looks of things, HL2's story is about 10 x as intricate than it's orginal, the supporting characters have increased in both number and depth, the facial animations look to set a new era in emotional impact for the gamer....and yet Gordon is still, to all inents and purposes, a mute.

I've heard the reasons for this - so that the gamer can feel greater identification with the character s/he's playing- but i wonder whether having a silent main character throughout such an epic and involving story will just feel....stupid. Not only that but restrictive to the story and ultimately to the player's involvement in the game. Choosing dialogue from a seletion, or hearing my character speak 'without' me, has never detracted from my involvment in other games before - why should it in a fps?

Anyway rant over - what do you all think?

Cheers,

d

If this games as good as I think its gonna be we wont need anymore games. :p
 
TheUnkillableDot said:
If this games as good as I think its gonna be we wont need anymore games. :p

yeah right, cliffhanger ending... remeber?
 
My two cents:

The public in general are a fickle bunch. You give Gordon a voice and this generates three responses from people

1) People love the voice
2) People hate the voice
3) People don't want the voice

The old addage applies: You can't please all the people all the time.

Another addage also applies: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I think this is true in the case of Gordon being mute throughout this series. It did nothing to detract from the story of HL and it went on to be one of the most popular games in history. For my suspension of disbelief I need the NPC's to be talking at me - not at some third person character representing me. I couldn't care less if I never hear Gordon speak - ever. I know if I ever hear Gordon speak I will immediately put myself in #2 and #3 from above. I will hate it and wish it was not there.

/my two cents
 
Just to deviate slightly from topic, HL2 is not the first "next-gen" FPS. Far Cry was, and Doom 3 is out soon...

:sniper:
 
iamaelephant said:
Just to deviate slightly from topic, HL2 is not the first "next-gen" FPS. Far Cry was, and Doom 3 is out soon...

:sniper:
lol, in what way do you consider far cry a "next gen" FPS?
 
iamaelephant said:
Just to deviate slightly from topic, HL2 is not the first "next-gen" FPS. Far Cry was, and Doom 3 is out soon...
You're thinking of "generation" in a strictly chronological manner, aren't you?
 
Hunchback said:
Here's the thing - I'm hoping that HL2 will dissapoint me....here's why.

All the revolutionary games released on the PC (Wolf 3D, Quake, Deus Ex, Black & White etc) create a model in which later games in a similar vein improve upon and explore. This does not necessarily make them the best example of their type (re: doom over wolf,) only the first and most striking. After a few years of a sucessful model being honed to its capabilities, there comes another title, another progression, that re-invigorates the genre, raising the bar again only to further be imitated and improved until the next revolutionary game comes along.

The original Half-life was a revolutionary game, so much so that even 5/6 years on its gameplay mechanics such as (semi) interactive set-pieces are still being used in games today (Call of Duty). But the thing about creating a game that's so far ahead of the rest, in terms of scope and ideas, is that it also highlights its own limitations. In Half-life this can be seen in the multiple Barney's and scientists, the 'old-style' Xen levels, its restrictive linerarity of the plot...

...And so HL2 is going to come out in a few months, and hopefully it's going to blow us all away. But because it's promising to be the first 'next-generation' fps (D3 promising i think to be the greatest 'old style' fps) then HL2 is going to have a few things wrong with it, or at least suggest further areas of improvement that no doubt other games (including HL3) will address. If it didn't it wouldn't be the revolutionary game we've all been waiting 6 years for.

And so I guess the point of my post is this - what area's of HL2 will suggest improvement?

While it's obviously difficult to say much about it until the game comes out - my worry is that from the looks of things, HL2's story is about 10 x as intricate than it's orginal, the supporting characters have increased in both number and depth, the facial animations look to set a new era in emotional impact for the gamer....and yet Gordon is still, to all inents and purposes, a mute.

I've heard the reasons for this - so that the gamer can feel greater identification with the character s/he's playing- but i wonder whether having a silent main character throughout such an epic and involving story will just feel....stupid. Not only that but restrictive to the story and ultimately to the player's involvement in the game. Choosing dialogue from a seletion, or hearing my character speak 'without' me, has never detracted from my involvment in other games before - why should it in a fps?

Anyway rant over - what do you all think?

Cheers,

d

It's a subconcious thing. HL3 will not have a Gordon that speaks.

I thougth you had something more concrete to complain about ... :dozey:

I did however like what you wrote before you came to the "problems" area, but you have to realize that HL1 has some serious limitations to take heed to. They simply couldn't do whatever they wanted, it just wasn't possible.
With HL2 you have the Source Engine... Now you can customize it if there were things that didn't work like you wanted it to... Basically all problems with the "game" and how VALVe would *like it to be* should be fixed via this. There'll probably one or two things that we'd like to see (Or not see) but that's in every game you play, and most often more then one or two things.

Regards
Dead-Inside
 
ShadowFox said:
Your ass is grass!

bwhahahah

here's a more:

I'm gonna give you a can of ass whooping
I can't see CRAP! (when flashbang-ed)
Where is he? (the most famous line EVAR!)
You are dead buddy!
Come out you mo fo'!
did you hear something?
 
iamaelephant said:
Just to deviate slightly from topic, HL2 is not the first "next-gen" FPS. Far Cry was, and Doom 3 is out soon...

:sniper:

FarCry didn't really grab my attention. I think the cheesey voice overs of the enemies did a lot to raise my critical eyebrow tbh. Sure it had pretty graphics and 'interesting' AI but the story was sadly lacking.

If voice acting is done well it can add a lot to a particular genre (rpg particlarly, KOTOR in particular) but in a FPS I like the fact that my character doesn't say anything. Gives you the freedom to talk to the screen in your own words while you play (come on, admit it :p) and increases the imersive atmosphere IMHO.
 
Just think of Gordon as Teller and Barney Calhoun as Penn Jilette. Only, with better physique and not quite so loud.
 
-JeZ- said:
FarCry didn't really grab my attention. I think the cheesey voice overs of the enemies did a lot to raise my critical eyebrow tbh. Sure it had pretty graphics and 'interesting' AI but the story was sadly lacking.

If voice acting is done well it can add a lot to a particular genre (rpg particlarly, KOTOR in particular) but in a FPS I like the fact that my character doesn't say anything. Gives you the freedom to talk to the screen in your own words while you play (come on, admit it :p) and increases the imersive atmosphere IMHO.
hehe, go one liners!
 
Lol , or the enemy: "I'm gonna lay the smackdown on you!"

Thank's for giving up your position.
 
Originally Posted by iamaelephant
Just to deviate slightly from topic, HL2 is not the first "next-gen" FPS. Far Cry was, and Doom 3 is out soon...

Far Cry next gen! Roflmao. Some people have very low expectations of what the next generation entails.


And Doom 3, I suppose you could argue that was next gen, but it's still just an old style of gameplay with prettier graphics. I want more from my next gen titles.

Like something that actually looks real maybe..
 
iamaelephant said:
Just to deviate slightly from topic, HL2 is not the first "next-gen" FPS. Far Cry was, and Doom 3 is out soon...

:sniper:


Far Cry was more of a great finish for the current generation.
Doom 3 on the other hand.....THAT is truly next generation
same for HL2
 
Crusader said:
Like something that actually looks real maybe..
Even if you 'can' see it, I'd say that first G-man BINK was pretty close to not being recognizable from a human. That is what make HL2 the first Next gen game.
 
Even if you 'can' see it, I'd say that first G-man BINK was pretty close to not being recognizable from a human. That is what make HL2 the first Next gen game.

Yup :)

The first ever game where the characters actually look and 'feel' like real people. I can't wait!
 
Personally I think what 'next-gen' is is when many technological limitations are gone and brand new and innovative gameplay and experiences result from the new freedom. Now I haven't played D3 so this is based on conjecture but I haven't seen or heard of new or innovative gameplay which, I think, is essential for a game to be called a 'next-generation' game.
 
Well, IF HL2's promises of natural character interaction, in depth physics and complex scene scripting end up doing absolutely nothing to add to the game, then yes the same could be said for HL2.
 
I was just seeing this G-man pic, and my dad who was standing behind me thought that it looked like a real-life photo I was tampering with in photoshop.

Now that's what I call "next-Gen"
 
lans said:
I was just seeing this G-man pic, and my dad who was standing behind me thought that it looked like a real-life photo I was tampering with in photoshop.

Now that's what I call "next-Gen"
That's what I'm talking about!
 
It's so strange... it's so real that instead of thinking "hmmm look at those graphics" I just think, wow he looks kind of weird...
 
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