Roger Ebert: Games are inferior to books, movies

[Beerdude26]

QFT

When I got to the end of Max Payne 2 I nearly cried. T'was very emotional.

Also (and i'm sure somebody has mentioned this before) games have only been around for 30 or so years. Cinema has been around for at least 100 years, art and music have been for millennia. Im sure one day there will be games that will be held in just as much esteem as 'high art'. I may go so far as to say that HL2 will be considered an early masterpiece.

OMG Max Payne 2 D: D: D:

That is actually the game that really affected me. It was magnificent in ever way and form. I've played that game through for about 30 times. I know exactly how the story goes, I can describe every level into the most of minute detail.

God, MP2 rocks :O

 

[operative x]

I approve of Sulkdodds statement, he speaks the truth!

 

[Muffin Man]

I agree ...but, for example, the beatles will be remembered throughout time ...I doubt the same could be said for say ...Nirvana or Michael Jackson

I was stating i think nirvana will be remembered, but whatever im gunna stop posting now, you all know my opinion and im tired of this opinion vs opinion bullshit, art can't really be defined and its pointless to try and say games are/arent a form or art and or are/arent as good as books/movies.

EFIT - from now on i will let Sulkdodds argure for me =D

 

[Narcolepsy]

[rant of utter ownage]
I don't think games have anywhere near yet reached their full potential yet. But I don't agree that right now, no games can aspire to be 'art' - even if you're using a pre-packaged definition of 'art'.

This is the point where Stern acknowledges with a D: that he has been owned. Very well said, Sulk.

Everything that needs to be said has already been said in this thread, but I would like to point out that you really need to agree on a definition for art before you start a debate like this. Furthermore, saying that the best game can't touch the best novel or movie has absolutely nothing to do with whether games are art or not.

 

[CptStern]

Stop comparing screenshots to paintings. A screenshot is not a game. A painting must express everything through its visual aspects, while a game can express things in many other ways. The art of a game isn't all in the graphics - more often than not it's in the way you play, the feelings it inspires in you, anything. What you're doing is like taking a still from Citizen Kane, comparing it to a painting and telling us it shows that films can't be art. It's not the whole picture. It's an unfair comparison.

I used that comparison to illustrate the mistaken notion that technical proficiency is eqaul to artisitic vision ..which it isnt

Alright, ALRIGHT. I think you're very very wrong in saying this.

Silent Hill 4. It's a game where you're trapped in your room, unable to get any glimpse of the outside world except through a hole in your wall, and through the window. The only possible way out is the gaping hell-maw that opens in your bathroom

that right there makes the exprience the same for every person playing it

- and so you venture, armed with a rusty pipe, into the unknown. Things you glimpse outside begin to make their way into the alternate realities. Each time you go in, you emerge into a new and strange world of fantasy - and each time you finish, you just end up back in your room.

but it's scripted is it not? it's what the developer intended is it not?

If that isn't a reflection on videogames themselves, the plight of gamers everywhere, and the very nature of fantasy then I don't know what is.

You've seen in this very thread how games can have different interpretations. I interpreted a Deus Ex ending completely differently to everyone else.

yes but you interpreted the narrative or plot differently ..not the emotional response to the game ...it is the same for everyone playing to within varying degrees of each other

This is true to some extent, but only to the extent it's also true for films and books.

not really ...read Kafka's Metamorphosis or Joyce's A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.

Alright. Let's say we're talking about games that are art - not your average game - because all your criteria here 'requires' something. There's a problem there, because games can be played by anyone without actually understanding the 'artistic' stuff. But hell, that's true of anything. Anyone can look at a painting.

yes but very few will interpret it correctly as the artist intended it because they havent walked in the artist's shoes and couldnt understand the basis from where the painting was created. Art in a vacuum is not valid. You cant look at a work of art as a singular piece in hopes of fully comprehending it's nature ..it's just not possible

Let's take, since this is hl2.net, Half-Life 2.



Certainly the 'artists' reponsible needed this in the creation of such a world and in the excellent level design, gameplay that comes together for a brilliant experience. Now that isn't just technique - technique would be the coding skills and modelling skills and mapping skills, wouldn't it? The game experience is something different. Certainly the audience, in order to understand the whole thing, needs perception to work out the story and any deeper meaning (which there is).

yes but it's a set piece ...ultimately it plays out exactly like the developer intended, if not there is no advancement in the game.

I doubt most people who played HL2 got the stuff about free choice (or lack of it as the case may be) or the relevance of the game's setting (Eastern Europe - previously occupied by the nazis, by the Russians, and now by the Combine - is it any different? There's comment for you.

yes but that's part of the narritive it still doesnt speak as to the condition of man as a whole ..it may alude to it but it doesnt overtly convey this

Do I need to go in-depth with this one? Here's something I made earlier.

sorry I'm kind of running out of time but as I've stated before HL2 has come close to being a work of art but it's still not high art

Maybe it's about the non-existence of true freedom and true choice. Or maybe it's about something entirely different. Hell, you could interpret HL2 as a battle against religion - a scientist fights the forces of an oppressive organisation trying to 'better' humanity, that converts others (forcibly) to its will and that is convinced it's doing the right thing (and maybe it is - it's just going about it by entirely the wrong methods). They even have backup from another, higher world.

that's sort of stretching it a bit and I hardly think that was Valves intention



more tommorrow

 

[gh0st]

This is the point where Stern acknowledges with a D: that he has been owned. Very well said, Sulk.

stern hasent been owned at all. it frightens me that he's the only person here besides me that has a genuine appreciation for TRUE art. im sorry, but half life 2 isnt art. its fun, yeah. there is something that isnt tangible that separates da vinci from gabe newell and i fail to see why you guys dont see that.

thats not to say video games cant ever be art, but half life 2 is NOT art.

maybe im the only one that feels this way, but i cannot with a straight face compare half life 2 and beowulf... it isnt fathomable. why the hell is max payne 2 being compared to schindlers list. im going to kill myself.

 

[operative x]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120604/
I could (notice the )

 

[Angry Lawyer]

In my opinion, although Games are fast becoming a medium for art (with the aforementioned games), they still have a long way to go to catch up with Cinema - which, in turn, is still ages from Literature.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[The Mullinator]

stern hasent been owned at all. it frightens me that he's the only person here besides me that has a genuine appreciation for TRUE art. im sorry, but half life 2 isnt art. its fun, yeah. there is something that isnt tangible that separates da vinci from gabe newell and i fail to see why you guys dont see that.

thats not to say video games cant ever be art, but half life 2 is NOT art.

maybe im the only one that feels this way, but i cannot with a straight face compare half life 2 and beowulf... it isnt fathomable. why the hell is max payne 2 being compared to schindlers list. im going to kill myself.

No one is comparing Half-Life 2 to the greatest works in history. They are simply saying that it is a form of art. There is a lot of space between calling something "art" and then calling something a "masterpiece" in the art world. For those who feel that no video game can be called art all I can say is that I consider you about as closed minded as those people who say "modern art" is not worthy of being called art.

 

[CptStern]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120604/
I could (notice the )

I'm on my way out the door for the night but couldnt resist ....he doesnt mean the crappy movie


http://www.lone-star.net/literature/beowulf/

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Exactly, Mullinator. Sechs?

-Angry Lawyer

 

[The Mullinator]

Exactly, Mullinator. Sechs?

-Angry Lawyer

Yes please, sechs for all.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

*strips nekkid, and whips out "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant" to prove all literature-haters wrong*

-Angry Lawyer

 

[operative x]

I'm on my way out the door for the night but couldnt resist ....he doesnt mean the crappy movie


http://www.lone-star.net/literature/beowulf/

I KNOW! IT WAS A JOKE!
thats why i put the "(notice the )"

 

[Muffin Man]

Sorry, i said i wasnt gunna post again but this pissed me off, whether it should have or not

stern hasent been owned at all. it frightens me that he's the only person here besides me that has a genuine appreciation for TRUE art. im sorry, but half life 2 isnt art. its fun, yeah. there is something that isnt tangible that separates da vinci from gabe newell and i fail to see why you guys dont see that.

dude dont be a ****ing jackass, i LOVE to read ok, shakespear, piers anthony, tolkeinf, poe, i love that stuff, i like old movies too. DOnt assume i have no appreciation for your view of "true art' becuase i, or any other person with my views, think vid games can be a form of art.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Thing is Stern, I really don't get what you're saying about the experience being 'the same'. Let's take a film. The script is set. The way it's filmed is set. The dialogue is set. The events are set. Things happen. The only things that differ in the experience are what people take away from it - what's inferred, what's implied, deeper meanings and themes. I just do not see how this is any different to games.

but it's scripted is it not? it's what the developer intended is it not?

What, the events? Yes.
A film: 'But it's scripted, is it not? It's what the director/scriptwriter intended, is it not?'
A book (alright, MOST books damn you ) "But it's pre-written, is it not? It's what the author intended, is it not?"

yes but you interpreted the narrative or plot differently ..not the emotional response to the game

Eh? I found it horrifying. Others found it happy and positive. How's that not different emotional responses?

yes but very few will interpret it correctly as the artist intended it because they havent walked in the artist's shoes and couldnt understand the basis from where the painting was created. Art in a vacuum is not valid. You cant look at a work of art as a singular piece in hopes of fully comprehending it's nature ..it's just not possible

Alright, I get your point here. Art can make sense on more than one level. Art can be enjoyable for the layperson, but even more so for the connoisseur who knows what's going on. But it requires those deeper meanings for it to be art? Or are you saying that something is not art unless only that connoisseur can enjoy it? Art can be understandble on different levels, surely? Art doesn't need to be completely incomprehensible to the layman, surely?

that's sort of stretching it a bit and I hardly think that was Valves intention

Well, yeah, the 'battle against religion' is stretching it. But I believe all that stuff about choice and free will is completely intentional on the part of Valve (I'm assuming you did actually catch the link to a previous post. I mean, all the stuff with the trains, the G-Man, the linear nature of the game, the being-forced-to-take-decisions-you-know-will-get-you-into-trouble...no way is all that accidental).

Fair enough on the time thing. I have to get off this damn internet. And let's not get into quote wars. I hate that.

edit:

there is something that isnt tangible that separates da vinci from gabe newell and i fail to see why you guys dont see that.

It's like Mullinator said. I'm not saying HL2 is as good as Da Vinci. I'm simply saying I believe it can be considered 'art' (and not all pieces of art have to be as good as eachother surely?). You disagree that it's 'art'. Fair enough: that is, after all, what we're arguing about.

 

[Gray Fox]

you're right, I havent played the games ...BUT I have played other games and at this point there is NO game that has achieved any of the things you've listed ...I dont mean interpretation of narrative but rather the interpretation of emotional contexts. and creative expression is not limited to the visceral but is experienced through all senses ...2 people looking at the same picasso painting can walk away with completely different interpretations ...that's just not possible in a game because it is made in manner that the outcome of any given scene is exactly the same for every person ...sure there's differences in execution but the end result is the same. IMHO and in many virtual theorists POV this wont happen till AI has a mind of it's own and it writes it's own story ..at that point the outcome will be less in the hands of developers and more in the hands of the player ...therefore opening up the game to interpretation ...games just arent there yet. It doesnt mean that MGS isnt a fantastic game that pushes the boundaries of what games could be ...but it's not high art in the same vein that concept art or commercial art isnt high art

Well I do not agree that two people playing teh same game can't walk off with completly different interpertations, I mean in this thread alone we hade a mini debate about what the ending of dx:IW meant.
Plus the sentance I made thick, if that counts for video games that must also count for movies then right, and for books.

 

[Narcolepsy]

stern hasent been owned at all. it frightens me that he's the only person here besides me that has a genuine appreciation for TRUE art. im sorry, but half life 2 isnt art. its fun, yeah. there is something that isnt tangible that separates da vinci from gabe newell and i fail to see why you guys dont see that.

thats not to say video games cant ever be art, but half life 2 is NOT art.

maybe im the only one that feels this way, but i cannot with a straight face compare half life 2 and beowulf... it isnt fathomable. why the hell is max payne 2 being compared to schindlers list. im going to kill myself.

Again, there's a discrepancy here between our definitions of art. What is art, really? If HL2 isn't "high art", is it "popular art" perhaps?

I am NOT saying that HL2 is some kind of defining work of our generation that will be celebrated for generations to come as the pinnacle of human achievement. I am NOT saying that it rivals Beowulf and Shakespeare. But I am saying that it uses a creative vision to make a statement, which, according to many of us, I think, is art.

No one is comparing Half-Life 2 to the greatest works in history. They are simply saying that it is a form of art. There is a lot of space between calling something "art" and then calling something a "masterpiece" in the art world. For those who feel that no video game can be called art all I can say is that I consider you about as closed minded as those people who say "modern art" is not worthy of being called art.

Exactly.

 

[Absinthe]

Mullinator's right. End.

 

[mortiz]

Missed the WW2 stuff:

It's important to remember that Schindler’s List is only a movie, it's actors portraying supposedly real events, and I'm sure some of those events have been exaggerated for the Silver Screen, but even so, it's human nature. 20 million people died 40 years before I was born, am I meant to be effected by that on some deep level? Of course it's upsetting to think so many people died but it doesn't shake me to the pits of my soul. Now comparing a real life event like WW2 to a game is silly, it isn't possible, but I was just making the general point that I'm so far removed from WW2 that the events don't have any real impact. If we cried over every soul lost in the past we wouldn't be able to live. Seeing real people dieing on the news effects me far more than Schindler’s List, but still, even with the news there's that level of abstraction, it doesn't really affect you on a deep level unless the events concern you directly.

 

[Beerdude26]

Missed the WW2 stuff:

It's important to remember that Schindler’s List is only a movie, it's actors portraying supposedly real events, and I'm sure some of those events have been exaggerated for the Silver Screen, but even so, it's human nature. 20 million people died 40 years before I was born, am I meant to be effected by that on some deep level? Of course it's upsetting to think so many people died but it doesn't shake me to the pits of my soul. Now comparing a real life event like WW2 to a game is silly, it isn't possible, but I was just making the general point that I'm so far removed from WW2 that the events don't have any real impact. If we cried over every soul lost in the past we wouldn't be able to live. Seeing real people dieing on the news effects me far more than Schindler’s List, but still, even with the news there's that level of abstraction, it doesn't really affect you on a deep level unless the events concern you directly.

What he says

and I'm sure some of those events have been exaggerated for the Silver Screen,

Unfortunatly, for Shindler's list, that is not the case D:

 

[Uriel]

Apples and Oranges. Some Games should never be made into movies or books, Some Movies should never be made into Books or Games, Some Books should never be made into Movies or Games.

A Movie can never satisfy the experience that you get from a Video Game because you are in control. Unless in the future we have some type of Choose your own Adventure Movie, but would that eventually become a game?

 

[Sulkdodds]

Now a Monkey Island movie. That would be awesome.

 

[Venmoch]

Spoiler

Supposedly! Maybe I interpreted it wrong but I saw it as everyone basically meshing into one hive consciousness - same mind, same thoughts, no individuals, just The Will - and I'm not quite sure why but something about it just struck me as horrible.

I agree, that would be horrible. But in your big talk with JC when he re-awakens he makes sure to tell you (Mutiple Times) that it wouldn't change how a person feels.

 

[Gray Fox]

I agree, that would be horrible. But in your big talk with JC when he re-awakens he makes sure to tell you (Mutiple Times) that it wouldn't change how a person feels.

On the other hand that may just be helios talking pretending to be JC. You never know. That ending is left pretty open to interpitation.

 

[CptStern]

I'm not done with you people yet!

back when I get a chance

 

[Absinthe]

On the other hand that may just be helios talking pretending to be JC. You never know. That ending is left pretty open to interpitation.

Helios and JC are essentially the same thing now. They merged into a single consciousness.

 

[Gray Fox]

Helios and JC are essentially the same thing now. They merged into a single consciousness.

That is true, if you believed helios in the first game. Maybe helios just took JC's memmory and is he dominant personanlity.

 

[Jintor]

Cursed conspiracy theories.

 

[Absinthe]

That is true, if you believed helios in the first game. Maybe helios just took JC's memmory and is he dominant personanlity.

With no evidence to suggest that, there's no reason to believe it.

That's like saying "Hey, what if Bob Page was really just pretending all along and wanted to create a utopia of unicorns and happy cakes?".

 

[OvA]

In my opinion, although Games are fast becoming a medium for art (with the aforementioned games), they still have a long way to go to catch up with Cinema - which, in turn, is still ages from Literature.

-Angry Lawyer

Quoted for absolute truth.

That statement is really what this thread amounts to.

 

[TheSomeone]

I don't see how you can compare anyways.

 

[Jintor]

Apples to Oranges?

 

[Que-Ever]

Apples to Oranges?

Apples are better, wtf?

 

[Jintor]

No, no no oranges ftw.

 

[SimonomiS]

Apples don't require peeling and don't sting your eyes if their juice gets in them.

It wasn't an orange that fell on Newton's head.

 

[Muffin Man]

newtons head ftw !

 

[Greatgat]

newtons head ftw !

Mmm... I could bite into it like a crunchy, delicious apple. I bet his brains were sweet and tender...

 

[Sparta]

Now a Monkey Island movie. That would be awesome.

I dream of one day buying the license from LucasArts to make a Monkey Island animated movie, just like the Curse of Monkey Island. It will be epic, i guarantee it.