Rosie O'Donnel comment

Oh I know that Christianity can be dangerous, I just feel that I should point out that not all religious extremism is the same.
 
Nemesis6 said:
Oh I know that Christianity can be dangerous, I just feel that I should point out that not all religious extremism is the same.
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Ahh, alright. That's not nearly as bad as how your post came off. Still, we all came to that agreement about a page or so back :p

And my caps usage was just blowing steam off. In case you or anyone was offended.
 
i dont get how christians think america was founded on the bible, it was founded on freedom of religion and to worship any one we wanted. the founding fathers wanted the government to stay out of its citizens personal lives not to regulate how we choose to live
 
Oh I know that Christianity can be dangerous, I just feel that I should point out that not all religious extremism is the same.
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That's not accurate.

The tactics are different, but the goal of nearly every religion is always the same: eliminate all other cultures, eliminate the concept of empiricism and live in a medieval-style theocracy.

Even the so-called "moderates" have this as their goal. Whenever you tell a person that you don't need facts to believe in god, or try to convert a friend, you're attempting to take a big bloody chunk out of the centuries of scientific progress that created modern society, the united states and the excellent lifestyle we enjoy today.

In the first case, by abandonning science in favor of servility. In the second, by destroying an otherwise logical person by tricking him into being an illogical one.

The goal of all religion is to destroy the concept that fact is better than fiction.
 
First off I am a Catholic. I do not think all Muslims are bad. Only some of them are extremists that kill for the sake of their religion, so therefore I still respect their choice of religion and do not point the blaming finger at all Muslims. Likewise there are some Christian nut-heads that make me feel embarassed to be Christian, but you must remember not all of us are like that. Hell, I'm Christian and I listen to metal. I'm a pretty laid back dude so no need to throw all of us on the crazy train with those extremist clowns. Ok, thanks.
 
madog said:
First off I am a Catholic. I do not think all Muslims are bad. Only some of them are extremists that kill for the sake of their religion, so therefore I still respect their choice of religion and do not point the blaming finger at all Muslims. Likewise there are some Christian nut-heads that make me feel embarassed to be Christian, but you must remember not all of us are like that. Hell, I'm Christian and I listen to metal. I'm a pretty laid back dude so no need to throw all of us on the crazy train with those extremist clowns. Ok, thanks.
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Completely understood :)

However, you and all other moderate Christians should try to work against the extremists within your religion, because they sure as hell won't listen to secularists :(
 
First off I am a Catholic. I do not think all Muslims are bad. Only some of them are extremists that kill for the sake of their religion, so therefore I still respect their choice of religion and do not point the blaming finger at all Muslims. Likewise there are some Christian nut-heads that make me feel embarassed to be Christian, but you must remember not all of us are like that. Hell, I'm Christian and I listen to metal. I'm a pretty laid back dude so no need to throw all of us on the crazy train with those extremist clowns. Ok, thanks.
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If you're a real christian, why aren't you following the old testament?

Jesus says you must, without exception.

If "nut-heads" are ruining christianity, why are you just sitting by and letting them?
Tacit support is still support.
Lucky for you, you're not a real christian anyways.
 
Stigmata said:
Completely understood :)

However, you and all other moderate Christians should try to work against the extremists within your religion, because they sure as hell won't listen to secularists :(
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Every group has a certain kind of people that they wish would stfu. I know some quite respectable Aethiests and most of them are good people, but even they have some people that say some pretty stupid stuff and are a bad representation of their group. So the shit is all around. Its these kind of people, the extremists that drag us all into wars. Just imagine the sparks when a Christian and Muslim extremist run into each other. No need to order pay-per-view my friends. Its not easy to silence these people since after all this freedom of speech thing allows them to banter as much bullshit as they wish. It is best just to dismiss them as crazy-go-nuts. But what really pisses me off is these are the people who get all the attention.

Mechagodzilla said:
If you're a real christian, why aren't you following the old testament?

Jesus says you must, without exception.

If "nut-heads" are ruining christianity, why are you just sitting by and letting them?
Tacit support is still support.
Lucky for you, you're not a real christian anyways.
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Like I said before, it is hard to silence the few extremists. They get a lot of attention from the media. Who are you to say I'm not Christian? Many things in the Old Testament are metaphorical and are interpretted. And btw Jesus made many exceptions to the Old ways. He was the New way. He didn't want unfaithful wives stoned like Jews had it done. Many new changes were brought about and His mercy came onto this world.
 
What makes you any different from an "extremist"?

What does an atheist say that is "stupid stuff that is a bad representation of a group"?
 
Well some say that all religion sucks and all religious should be gathered up and shot. That's kind of bad maybe? I wouldn't say that about Athiests. Some of my friends are Athiests.

What makes me different? I'm not a ****ing idiot running around with guns and bombs looking to kill and spread messages of hatred for the sake of my religion. Also, in the case of Christian extremists I am not like them because I do not impose my views on others, I just state them. An example of an extremist would be that "ungodly lady" who is just a nut.
 
Atheism isn't a religion. There's the difference.

The thing is, the extremists you're referring to are more Christian than you are.
 
Which is why they are "extreme".

True Athiesm isn't a religion but they can still show the basic human respect that I show them. I respect their choice they can respect mine. No need to be an asshole about it.
 
As you can see it's only the abrahamic religions that are most crticized. Why?

They are the most extreme. Most people here do not have a problem with religion(s) in general, it's just Christianty, Islam, and Judaism.

If you look through history it has been those 3 that has caused more wars, deaths, and so on then any other religion I know of.
 
Well, dude. Hate the stupid people involved not the religion (or both, I guess it doesn't matter). But, Christianity is not controlling me like a robot and sending me to kill. The extremists make the choices themselves. So it would be logical to blame them for interpretting their religion like a stupid minge bag.
 
If you're not going to follow Christianity, why associate yourself with it.

There is no interpretation involved with this. Just people trying to decieve themselves into seeing some half-assed pacifism that doesn't exist.
 
Just become a deist or agnostic or some shit. :p

But hey, if you feel christianity is something you best relate to, then it isn't or place to say what is or isn't for you. Let alone be it our place to judge.
 
I am a follower of Christianity, I believe in God and Jesus and that He is my savior. You just can't believe that I'm Christian and still actually sane. MAybe I just like to have hope? That's not such a bad thing? I like to believe life is worth living for and that I don't just decay into nothing when I die. It makes me feel better.
As Tr0n put it, I do have a bit of a Deist in me yet still Christian. I still belive in God but I'm not crazy over all the little aspects like extremists.
 
Funny how you were hearing the follow the old testament crap from someone whos not even Christian! lol
 
"Like I said before, it is hard to silence the few extremists."

Who said anything about silencing them?
Kick them out, shun them from your villages, whatever.
It is absolutely not difficult for you to say "you are not welcome." Get some personal standards.
Hell, Jesus asks you to kill these people.
Yet you're not doing anything.

"Who are you to say I'm not Christian?"

I didn't say it. JESUS did.
Jesus says the laws of Moses are mandatory for the rest of eternity. If you don't follow the laws, you fail at christianity and go to hell.
Didn't you read this thread?

"Many things in the Old Testament are metaphorical and are interpretted."

That's bullshit. You made that rule up completely on your own.
Where on did Jesus or God say anything like that?
Don't lie about the bible please.

"And btw Jesus made many exceptions to the Old ways. He was the New way. He didn't want unfaithful wives stoned like Jews had it done. "

That's a lie.
He stopped ONE woman's execution because her accusers were sinful and thus not allowed to judge / execute.
He did NOT abolish the death penalty for adulterers.
Judgement and executions can be carried out by anyone who follows god's law.

Don't lie about jesus.

"Many new changes were brought about and His mercy came onto this world."

Jesus added more detailed instructions onto the laws of Moses, but he did NOT remove or change any of them.

Don't lie about jesus, please.

There is a big difference between what jesus actually said and what you wish he said or assume he would want.


"Well some say that all religion sucks and all religious should be gathered up and shot. That's kind of bad maybe?"

Killing is sometimes justifiable if the bad logically outweigns the good.
The goals of christianity and islam are identical: abolish all free, secular societies.
When it comes to protecting my freedom, there may come a time where violence will be necessary to preserve human rights.
Some could argue that we are past that point.
I'm somewhat more hopeful.
For now.

"I wouldn't say that about Athiests."

That's because atheistism is not antithetical of human freedoms.
Atheism is fundamentally the understanding that fantasy does not override logical thought.
You cannot have a free society without secularism.
Secularism is based on logical thought.
Religion is the enemy of logical thought.

"What makes me different? I'm not a ****ing idiot running around with guns and bombs looking to kill and spread messages of hatred for the sake of my religion. [...] I do not impose my views on others, I just state them."

So the only difference is tactical. Ideologically, there's no difference.
You cannot be a christian without the biblically-mandated belief that non-christians go to hell.
Why aren't you trying to rescue us from this horrible torture?
I guess bastards like you would rather sit back and watch us fry. To purify heaven, I guess?

Once again, the goal of every religion is the elimination of all other cultures. You would do it through turning a blind eye to torture.
 
delusional said:
stop saying all this folow the old testament law bs mecha
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=galatians 3:10-14 ;version31;
everyone breaks the law so by your logic everyone goes to hell
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=galations 2:16-21 ;&version=31;
only by faith in jesus christ can you be saved
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 corinthians 15:56-57 ;&version31;
no man can resist sinning because the bar is set so high
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BULLSHIT!

Use some goddamn logic here already.

1) Salvation is through faith in Christ.
2) Christ says "follow the laws or else no salvation!"

Therefore, the only logical conclusion given 1 and 2:

You need to follow the laws and have faith in christ to get into heaven.

In other words,
You can't be an atheist and still get into heaven just by mechanically following the laws.

These statements do nothing more than make atheism illegal under the bible (although not punishable by execution like "incorrect" religions are).




Also:

Psalm 62:12
For you render to each one according to his works.

Proverbs 10:16
The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin.

Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Ezekiel 18:27
When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul.

Matthew 5:20
Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matthew 19:17
If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matthew 25:41-46
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Luke 10:26-28
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 2:6, 13
Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

2 Corinthians 11:15
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Philippians 2:12
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

James 2:14
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

James 2:17
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:21-25
Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 Peter 1:17
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.

Revelation 2:23
I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life.



Passages that proclaim the importance of following the laws outnumber those that emphasize faith by at least twice as many.

Please don't lie about Jesus.
 
madog said:
I am a follower of Christianity, I believe in God and Jesus and that He is my savior. You just can't believe that I'm Christian and still actually sane. MAybe I just like to have hope? That's not such a bad thing? I like to believe life is worth living for and that I don't just decay into nothing when I die. It makes me feel better.
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I have to say, you must find the worth of life to be very cheap if it hinges on an afterlife. We cherish things because they are temporal and fleeting. You should value your life because it is the only one you get. I don't see how making something eternal adds any value. If anything, it does the opposite.

As Tr0n put it, I do have a bit of a Deist in me yet still Christian. I still belive in God but I'm not crazy over all the little aspects like extremists.
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Fine. Have fun in Hell.
 
when does jesus say the laws of the old testament are mandatory and should be followed to a tee. explain to me the verses i posted then. you said that the pharisees were in no shape to judge because they sinned but hasnt everyone sinned so no one on this earth can carry out executions. it is not justifiable to kill someone religious just because they have a different outlook on life or that they try to enforce their morality upon you, two wrongs dont make a right.
 
its not follow the laws and have faith its have faith and uphold the laws. thats why i said earlier in the thread that the laws are more like guidelines because everyone makes mistakes but everyone should try their best to uphold these laws. they shouldnt be punished by the law because those sins are already paid for
 
delusional said:
when does jesus say the laws of the old testament are mandatory and should be followed to a tee. explain to me the verses i posted then. you said that the pharisees were in no shape to judge because they sinned but hasnt everyone sinned so no one on this earth can carry out executions. it is not justifiable to kill someone religious just because they have a different outlook on life or that they try to enforce their morality upon you, two wrongs dont make a right.
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FFS. How many times must I repeat myself?

Jesus says the laws are mandatory until the end of time.

Matthew 5:18-19
'In truth I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even the smallest stroke of a letter will pass away from The Law.
So anyone who breaks the least of these commandments or teaches others to do so will be called "least" in the kingdom of heaven. But whoevever practices these commandments and teaches them will be called "great" in the kingdom of heaven.'

^That's what JESUS just so happens the have SAID.

A key part of the laws is that they are ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY:

Deuteronomy 29:19-20
'If anyone should think to himself, "I will do well enough if I follow the dictates of my heart," Yahweh will not pardon him. His wrath shall burn against him. And all the curses written in the book will come upon him. Yahweh will single him out for misfortune and blot out his name from under heaven.'

^This is what GOD happens to have SAID.

The verses you posted CANNOT CONTRADICT THIS.
Even if you ignore the clear passages of the bible, Jesus cannot contradict god because he is god.
Lucky for us, jesus did NOT write those things.




Remember PAUL and how PAUL and JESUS are not the same person??


"1 Corinthians is a letter, or a conflation of several letters, from Paul of Tarsus and Sosthenes to the Christians of Corinth, Greece."
and:
"The Epistle to Galatians is a book of the New Testament. It is a letter from Paul of Tarsus to a number of early Christian communities in the Roman province of Galatia in central Anatolia."

Everything you quoted is written by PAUL. PAUL is directly contradicting JESUS. Therefore PAUL is WRONG.

Why would PAUL contradict JESUS?
A: Because PAUL is a goddamn hippie who, only about twenty years after the death of christ, decided to "peaceify" the bible:

"After Paul's departure the churches [of Galatia] were visited by individuals whom Paul regarded as troublemakers preaching a "different gospel" from that preached by Paul (1:6–9). The Galatians appear to have been receptive to the teaching of these newcomers, and the epistle is Paul's angry response to what he sees as their willingness to turn from his teaching.

The identity of these "opponents" is disputed. We do not have a record of their activity, but are left to reconstruct it from Paul's response. However, the majority of modern scholars view them as Jewish Christians (i.e. Judaizers), who taught that in order for pagans to belong to the people of God, they must be subject to some or all of the Jewish Law."

Hmm... a Jewish Christian who says that you must follow the laws of moses... WHO DOES THAT REMIND YOU OF???

Those opponents to paul were the last real christians on Earth.

So PAUL was one of the very first people in recorded history to lie through his teeth about jesus.

Stop lying about jesus!


(sorry about explicit and flagrant capitalization, but this the seventh or so time that I have written out this same extremely simple concept).
 
jesus never wrote a single part in the bible so in actuality all the quotes from jesus were left to interpretation by matthew, mark, john, and luke. matthew 5:18-19 still says if you break the laws you'll still go to heaven you`ll just be lesser. im merely saying that by faith your sins will be forgiven so you dont punish people who break the law because their sins have been paid for. you seem to think if you break a single law that your going to hell but that simply isnt true.
 
Its funny how i am being told how to worship by people who don't even like Christianity. i'm entitled to my opinion so stfu. I believe Jesus is my savior and died for our sins so I think that is what it takes to be saved according to the Church. You should worry about yourselves. I try to just come to a peaceful solution when all you guys do is hate and flame. Continue to bash Christianity if you wish because I'm not coming back to this thread or even this section of the forum. How can you be so arrogant and feel so full of yourself all the time? It sickens me. Btw mecha, how am I suppose to shun extremists, I am just one person not the community. They may be extreme but they are still a part. Also, who the **** gave you the right to say I am going to hell. That is for God to decide. You are just some religion hating bastard so I don't know why you would care anyway. I feel sorry for you actually. I hope this section of the forum gets deleted because it is filled with mental retardation. Goodbye and thank God.
 
madog said:
Its funny how i am being told how to worship by people who don't even like Christianity.
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Liking a religion has nothing to do with it. In fact, that is absolutely horrible criteria on which to judge a religion. You express the extremely ignorant mindset that unless you're a part of something, it can't be criticised. On those very grounds, one couldn't judge Nazism. Does that sound right to you?

It shouldn't, because that's a load of crap. Your faith is entirely susceptible to outside critique, as well as your own "interpretation" of it.

Arrogance is all too often an attribute applied to people that are right.
 
delusional said:
jesus never wrote a single part in the bible so in actuality all the quotes from jesus were left to interpretation by matthew, mark, john, and luke. matthew 5:18-19 still says if you break the laws you'll still go to heaven you`ll just be lesser.
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That's bullshit again!

If you're saying the bible does not accurately reflect the will of christ, then you are admitting that christianity (the collective act of following the will of christ) has been dead before it even began.
If you call yourself a christian, you have NO CHOICE but to assume that the bible is extremely accurate.
It obviously does contain some detectable mistakes (like Paul's horrible hippie lies), but if you assume that it isn't accurate for no reason, then you fail at religion!

More bullshit:

-You just admitted that genocide is actively rewarded by god by giving people status in the "kingdom of heaven".

-The "Kingdom of Heaven" refers to the "Kingdom of God". NOT to heaven itself.

The term "kingdom of god" is never actually clearly defined in the bible.
HOWEVER:

"When Jesus speaks of the Kingdom of God/heaven (both meaning the same thing) he speaks of the time of the fulfillment of the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants. A time of a restored earth where the faithful will worship and serve their God forever under the rulership of a righteous leader of the Davidic line."

That time has not yet happened, and will not happen until the end of days.
Not coincidentally, the end of days is exactly when Jesus says the laws of moses will finally expire!
(Matthew 5:18)

Until the apocalypse, you WILL go to hell if you break the MANDATORY law!

im merely saying that by faith your sins will be forgiven so you dont punish people who break the law because their sins have been paid for.
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That's a crock. Jesus says nothing of the sort. Paul says that, and Paul's contradiction of Jesus marks him as a false prophet.

you seem to think if you break a single law that your going to hell but that simply isnt true.
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I have repeatedly shown that to be the case.
In response to my facts, your refutations have been almost uniformly filled with disinformation.

Stop lying about jesus!
 
first off your saying that every single person that commits a sin goes to hell so everyone that has lived is in hell so heaven is empty. is that right?
"when jesus saw their faith, he said, friend, your sins are forgiven" luke 5:20
and when i said "if you break the law you'll still go to heaven" i meant if you have faith in god but break the law but still repent then you'll still go to heaven
 
madog said:
Its funny how i am being told how to worship by people who don't even like Christianity. i'm entitled to my opinion so stfu.
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JESUS gives you these commands, and JESUS says that people who think they are "entitled to their own opinion" go straight to hell to endure infinite pain for eternity.

I'm not jesus. I am only repeating exactly what he says without a thousand years of cumulative error confounding my clear and rational judgement.

I believe Jesus is my savior and died for our sins so I think that is what it takes to be saved according to the Church.
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Bullshit! That's horrible logic:

"A) Jesus saves things.
B) Jesus died once.
Therefore, given A and B:
C) Jesus's death saved me!"

???

Correlation does not imply cause! That's fallacious logic.

Not only that, but that contradicts everything else Jesus said in the bible.

You should worry about yourselves. I try to just come to a peaceful solution when all you guys do is hate and flame.
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That's bullshit.

Not only does Jesus command you to worry about everyone else, but simple logic tells us that ignoring a problem (which christianity clearly is) will not make it go away.

Meanwhile, how can you have a "violent" solution to an internet discussion?
Where has anyone here exhibited any irrational hatred?
As long as you have an adequately relevant logical reason to "hate" something, there is nothing wrong with hate.
For example, I hate boiled peas because they taste bad and cancer because it kills people.

I "hate" christianity because it has commited countless wrongs for no reason. Not the least of which involve teaching two billion people to lie about jesus.

Also, where are the flames? Nothing here is an insult. These are biblical facts.
Any insult exists only in your brain.
If your brain offends you, cut it out.

Continue to bash Christianity if you wish because I'm not coming back to this thread or even this section of the forum. How can you be so arrogant and feel so full of yourself all the time? It sickens me.
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First of all, I haven't bashed anything. All I have done in this thread is QUOTE THE BIBLE.
If you were a proper christian, you would correct my (seemingly nonexistant) errors.
Not choose the path of ignorance.

Yeah, I'm the arrogant one because I am quoting & promoting the original message of Jesus Christ our lord andsavior.

Meanwhile, you are not arrogant for calling us all sickening and then deciding you are "too good" to participate or even attempt to comprehend the discussion at hand. Again without any logical reason.

By the way, Jesus tells you to love thy enemy. Not call them arrogant and sickening.

Welcome to hell!

Btw mecha, how am I suppose to shun extremists, I am just one person not the community. They may be extreme but they are still a part.
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Hmm... how could you shun extremists???

How about NOT ACCEPTING THEM AS PART OF YOUR COMMUNITY ONLY ONE SENTENCE LATER.

Also, who the **** gave you the right to say I am going to hell.
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God did.

That is for God to decide.
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Exactly.


You are just some religion hating bastard so I don't know why you would care anyway.
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I have spent the last several thousand words caring about what you say.

Frankly, I am saddened that your faith is this fragile, that you would close your eyes to the true words of christ and persist to live a heathenistic lifestyle.

Also, you're supposed to love me. Not call me a bastard.

I feel sorry for you actually.
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That's the spirit. Hate and love simultaneously via pity!
Now you're thinking like a true christian.
You're right on the road to killing all religious minorities while still feeling sorry for them.

I hope this section of the forum gets deleted because it is filled with mental retardation. Goodbye and thank God.
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There you have it, people.
The entirety of christianity summarized in a single quote.
Checklist:

-Censorship.
-Pseudoscience.
-Paternalism.
-Generalized disdain.
-Impotent prayer.

and

-Failure.
 
delusional said:
first off your saying that every single person that commits a sin goes to hell so everyone that has lived is in hell so heaven is empty. is that right?
"when jesus saw their faith, he said, friend, your sins are forgiven" luke 5:20
and when i said "if you break the law you'll still go to heaven" i meant if you have faith in god but break the law but still repent then you'll still go to heaven
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I did not say that. I have repeatedly pointed out in several threads that:

God has the ability to personally forgive broken laws. This is an extremely rare event, but occurs throughout both the old and new testaments.
Without the clear, personal intervention of god, you go to hell.

This is not an official part of the law, but is unofficially the result of becoming friendly with god through direct personal contact.
These favoured few could perform blood sacrifices or, if they were lucky, simply convince god through empassioned dialogue.
With the coming of christ, faith in jesus replaced the sacrifice, but the end result is identical.

Jesus, for example, personally intervened in the quote you mentioned, along with a handful of others.
God was frequently coaxed by Moses into forgiving the israelite's errors repeatedly in the old testament.
Noah's instructions for the Ark could also be seen as a good early example of this mercy clause taking an (extremely limited) effect.

It is purely on a case-by-case basis and the forgiveness is almost always accompanied by a direct converstation with god.
(How else would you know you're not hellbound?)
In other words, repentance is not unique to the new testament - and essentially it never works except for the very, very most faithful.
Typically, these are people who are already following the law anyways (and are likely just calling in a favor for others).



I'd also like to add, concerning my last response to you, that jesus defines being "least" in the Kingdom of Heaven as not entering it at all.
Since the kingdom of heaven encompasses both heaven and (future) Earth, that leaves only Hell.

'I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses the experts in The Law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.'
(Matthew 5:20)

People who don't follow the law are "least" of the KoH.
People who don't follow the law are denied entry to the KoH and go to hell.

Therefore, being "least" means going to hell.
 
jesus says the essentially the same thing in matthew mark and john. you have never said god can forgive sin until now. "...unless you repent, you to will all perish" luke 13:5
repentance does work, their are many other times when jesus says to repent. also god doesnt come down and say your sins are forgiven the way you think, but through the holy spirit. having trouble posting link but its from john 14:15-21
 
matthew 5:20 is most likely talking about the pharisees who were experts at the law at the time and they were very hypocritical so jesus is not talking about the law but rather the pharisees
 
delusional said:
"...unless you repent, you to will all perish" luke 13:5
Click to expand...

...in the kingdom of heaven where life is eternal.

I've already gone over this.

When was the last time repenting made you immortal (not perishing)? There has never been a christian on Earth who has been granted immortality.

Immortality on Earth does not come until the end times.

repentance does work, their are many other times when jesus says to repent.
Click to expand...

...and they almost all refer to surviving during the end times, and/or as something you must do in addition to following the laws.

I've already gone over that.

also god doesnt come down and say your sins are forgiven the way you think, but through the holy spirit. having trouble posting link but its from john 14:15-21
Click to expand...

14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

The holy ghost is god. Jesus also is god. The christian god is a trinity.

Note John 14:21:
The love of Jesus comes FIRST through obeying his commandments (and thus the law of moses). Obeying the commandments is one of the only acceptable shows of faith. Faith then gains you the respect of god. And, only then, manifestations.

You can still only be forgiven either through direct spiritual communication or actually conversing with a physical body in the form of Yahweh or Jesus.

Either way, god is manifesting himself.

Also he doesn't forgive all sins. Just specific sins.


Otherwise, how would you know you were actually safe from hell?
Forgiveness in the bible often helps save christians from making minor unintentional accidents in their devout following of the laws.
Without manifestation, you can and probably would go to hell without ever knowing you did wrong.
Note that biblical law makes no distinction between accidental crimes and intentional crimes, in most cases.

Manifestations of this sort are thus ESSENTIAL to the proper use of the laws.
But you must already be an expert on the law for them to ever happen. God doesn't fly down for just anybody.
How many people are experts in the law today?
Really, only me. And I'm not even christian. No wonder these manifestations of forgiveness all disappeared shortly after jesus died.
Jesus promised to appear via ghost-o-vision to the very most righteous who follow the laws of moses.
No-one follows the laws of moses, and apparently no-one has since around 50-100 A.D.

Now, must I ask after all these posts, why you insist on trying to make the bible self-contradictory?
Jesus said A and B.
Your only rebuttal had been "well he also said XYZ"

That doesn't change anything! He still said what he still said!
 
Madog To Do List

1. start worrying about everyone else
2. start loving enemies/mechagodzilla more
3. stop inviting extremists over for after church tea
4. live a less heathenistic life
5. kill all religious minorities
6. Cut out brain
 
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