Russian Hostage Situation

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Adrien C you have no idea what you're talking about. You're dealing with people who are quite prepared to die for their cause. Nobody in the west has had to deal with this kind of situation, with the exception of Waco Texas, and we all know how that turned out....
 
blahblahblah said:
I will agree with you that it is the Russian way to handle things of this nature. Their history pretty much explains it all.

I find Russian history quite fascinating.
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The crazy dirty Rasputin? :p
 
Parrot of doom said:
Adrien C you have no idea what you're talking about. You're dealing with people who are quite prepared to die for their cause. Nobody in the west has had to deal with this kind of situation, with the exception of Waco Texas, and we all know how that turned out....
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I remember that yes, sorry I forgot to mention the American SWAT , where they shoot hostages.

If I was Russia, I would bomb chechenya (sp), kill some prisoners of war, I would let them know what happens if you mess with Russia.
 
Farrowlesparrow said:
Interesting...I think...It is part of the Russian way of thinking to be heavy handed with these things. That is how Russia has worked for centuries, and although that perhaps isn't justification, it is a valid reason for their actions. They cannot be compared to other peoples, especially considering the situation they are in. Other developed nations get few if any situations like this and they are rarely as large scale.
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I understand, I've seen many hostage situations go bad from all over the world ...but these were kids, you cant help but ask what went wrong. As a father I'm sick to my stomach thinking about all those dead children and I cant help but think more could have been done to minimize the death count.
 
Adrien C said:
If I was Russia, I would bomb chechenya (sp), kill some prisoners of war, I would let them know what happens if you mess with Russia.
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Oh yes. That'll be effective...
You can't be serious. That sort of stuff usually starts terrorist campaigns (or fighting for freedom - what ever you want to call it).
I can't imagine how much it will aggravate the situation.
 
JimmehH said:
Oh yes. That'll be effective...
You can't be serious. That sort of stuff usually starts terrorist campaigns (or fighting for freedom - what ever you want to call it).
I can't imagine how much it will aggravate the situation.
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Goverments do it all the time, only they don't mention it, or they say it was a suiside, Germany did it a lot in the 70-80 when those kind of things happend a lot.

Read this :here

If I would capture terrorist from a raid, I would take him outside and just shoot him in front of everybady, evry news channel, Eye for an eye.
 
I saw a documentry on a Russian hostage situation, which took place in like 1990 something by a group of checneyans (spelling). Its pretty sad in the documentry they told how the russian forces needed to gas the theater to make the suicidal women that had detonators pass out so they could get in without them being seen or whatever. ANyway, the gas was experimental and many of the hostages died from the gas alone because it stopped their breathing.....very sad
 
Either way there was going to be heavy casulties with this kind of situation.

Russia was not going to bow to terrorists. They even gave a massive concession on the russian side(letting the rebels go back to their own country unharmed)
 
Adrien C said:
If I was Russia, I would bomb chechenya (sp), kill some prisoners of war, I would let them know what happens if you mess with Russia.
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What would that accomplish, apart from turning the rubble in Grozny into smaller pieces of rubble?
 
seinfeldrules said:
Purely disgusting. 200 children and teachers dead, will these terrorists ever hit rock bottom? That is pathetic.
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Taking children as hostage is indeed pathetic, but Russia's actions in Chechnya are the root cause of such terrorism.
 
lePobz said:
increases the effectiveness of any bomb blast :|
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Then again, extreme heat can cause clothes to melt and fuse into the skin, which is really, really bad.

The Mullinator said:
I don't think they rushed in screaming, guns blazing while half drunk and soaked in Vodka. They are trained commandos, they are experts at dealing with hostage situations.
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I'm not entirely sure if Russia has any hostage rescue teams that are on par with their western counterparts (e.g SAS, GIGN, SWAT and so on).

I'm sure the assault was done properly, but there seemed to be many unnecessary people around the area. And it seemed like everyone had a different uniform (or no uniform). It's almost as if Russia has a peasant army or something...

The Mullinator said:
As for the theater scenerio I can't really see much else they could have done, all negotians failed and the only thing left to do was attempt to storm the place. The gas undoubtably saved more people than it killed and you can't really blame them for using the gas.
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Then again, I heard that the troops who stormed the theatre stopped to steal all the belonings of the hostages, instead of carrying them outside, away from the gas... I guess Russian soldiers don't get paid very well.

Adrien C said:
I think that a 12 year old in CS can do better than Russian Special Forces.
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Russia may not be great at hostage rescue, but it's not exactly a matter of waltzing in, shooting the terrorists and bringing out the champagne, as you seem to think. The entire building was apparently booby-trapped and they had to go in on a whim, instead of in a controlled and planned manner. And so on.
 
Cybernoid said:
Taking children as hostage is indeed pathetic, but Russia's actions in Chechnya are the root cause of such terrorism.
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I completely agree. Obviously these peoples' actions are not justified, but at the same time, they are pissed off for a reason. Resorting to violence only makes both sides angrier, as the situation in Iraq clearly demonstrates. Yes, "killing the bad guy" is sometimes neccassary to deal with an immediate situation such as this, but I think we really need to start working towards creating an environment where there is no "bad guy" in the first place. Humans have been the #1 predator of humans for thousands of years now and there really is no need for it. You'd think we'd learn our lesson eventually.
 
Russians dealt with this in the best way in the World.

Western media just feels the need to put 'em down. The hostage takers reportedly removed their clothes not to be indentified and went with the crowd. And some apparently took hostages as cover.

I watched the whole thing happen minute by minute and what appeared to have happened was - The Russians negotiated to remove the bodies of the school grounds. During that time some hostages managed to get away, maybe helped by the Russians or not. When the guerrila started firing at the escaping hostages and apparently detonated the bomb in the gym, the Russians stormed.

What they did was the right thing. You all smartasses saying that GIGN or SAS would do any better, look again. When was an entire school taken by Islamic militia in London or Paris? Never. The Russians are highly skilled in these matter, the gasing the Theatre was also a great move, it was a shame what happened but the plan was excellent.
 
Cybernoid said:
I'm not entirely sure if Russia has any hostage rescue teams that are on par with their western counterparts (e.g SAS, GIGN, SWAT and so on).
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Then you should start reading. If there were no nukes, the World would be under Commie control right now, the former SU and now Russia has some of the best men available.

The economy isn't very good, but their Special Forces are still some of the best in the World.
 
Cybernoid said:
Taking children as hostage is indeed pathetic, but Russia's actions in Chechnya are the root cause of such terrorism.
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Really?

it was only after the Chechens bombed Moscow residential buildings Putin ordered troops back in.
 
Sprafa said:
Russians dealt with this in the best way in the World.
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So you're saying that Russia has the best counter-terrorism and hostage rescue units in the world?

What they did was the right thing. You all smartasses saying that GIGN or SAS would do any better, look again. When was an entire school taken by Islamic militia in London or Paris?
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An embassy was taken in Britain in the eighties. SAS stormed the embassy. If I remember correctly, not a single hostage died and all but one (he was captured) of the terrorists were eliminated. GSG9 (German unit), with the help of SAS, stormed a hijacked plane. Same end result. And so on.

Never. The Russians are highly skilled in these matter, the gasing the Theatre was also a great move, it was a shame what happened but the plan was excellent.
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The whole theatre thing was just one big clusterf-ck.
 
Sprafa said:
Then you should start reading. If there were no nukes, the World would be under Commie control right now, the former SU and now Russia has some of the best men available.
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Best men for what? Combat or hostage rescue? And don't tell me that nukes were the only thing standing between some super secret Russian kungfu killer commandos and the western world.

Sprafa said:
Really?

it was only after the Chechens bombed Moscow residential buildings Putin ordered troops back in.
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I somehow doubt that.

In any case, had Russia not invaded them in ~1994, we wouldn't be having this mess.
 
Cybernoid said:
So you're saying that Russia has the best counter-terrorism and hostage rescue units in the world?
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Some of the best, yes.



Cybernoid said:
An embassy was taken in Britain in the eighties. SAS stormed the embassy. If I remember correctly, not a single hostage died and all but one (he was captured) of the terrorists were eliminated. GSG9 (German unit), with the help of SAS, stormed a hijacked plane. Same end result. And so on.
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Iranian embassy crisis - Operation Nimrod. There 6 terrorists. 26 hostages.

Specify the flight, but I'm sure there wasn't more than 10 terrorists and 100 hostages.
 
Cybernoid said:
Best men for what? Combat or hostage rescue? And don't tell me that nukes were the only thing standing between some super secret Russian kungfu killer commandos and the western world.
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Russia had the greatest Army in the world, with nearly 100 000 tanks. If there were no nukes, you would see F-4s being shot down by MiGs in the 60s and those 100 000 tanks reaching France in a few weeks.



Cybernoid said:
I somehow doubt that.

In any case, had Russia not invaded them in ~1994, we wouldn't be having this mess.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Apartment_Bombings

1994 was a big mess, but in the end there was a nice cease-fire. They should have respected that.

Hey, check this out -
wikipedia.org said:
Spetsnaz GRU, or Russian army special forces, are the original SPETSNAZ and are generally considered the best trained units of the Russian military. They are controlled by the GRU (the Russian military intelligence agency). During the Cold War, these units were deployed in Eastern Europe in order to carry out reconnaissance and sabotage missions against the NATO forces in the event of a war in Europe. It is claimed that they are one of the best infantry forces in the world. For instance, it is related that in the mid 1990s, there was a competition in Alaska, USA, of Spetsnaz GRU and US Army Rangers. The Rangers managed to be first only in one competition - lifting weights. Spetsnaz GRU was better in any other aspect, including running, target shooting, stealth, etc.
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Sprafa said:
Hey, check this out -
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It is claimed that they are one of the best infantry forces in the world.
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Anyone can claim anything. It doesn't mean squat.

For instance, it is related that in the mid 1990s, there was a competition in Alaska, USA, of Spetsnaz GRU and US Army Rangers. The Rangers managed to be first only in one competition - lifting weights. Spetsnaz GRU was better in any other aspect, including running, target shooting, stealth, etc.
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Also doesn't prove anything, since the world is full of special forces. Britain, France, Germany, Israel and so on. Besides, Rangers aren't a hostage rescue unit.

It's also "related" that the Navy SEALs once had an excersise againts Finnish special forces in Finland. SEALs lost.
 
Shame

Chechnya was part of Russia until they chose to break away, most chechens dont care either way and its only some of the people there who want to fight against Russia. These forces want to turn chechnya into a strict Muslim state whereas Russia would give people the liberty to choose a religion.

So many terrorists, and make no mistake these are terrorists in the purest sense of the word (terrorist - person who uses violence against civilians to forward a political point), all with bombs ready to go off at the touch of a button - its amazing that anyone survived and having a death toll of 200, obviously still undesirable, is also quite an amazing achievement. Russian forces failed here to the same degree American forces "failed" in September 11

I dont care how good the SAS, GIGN etc are, these terrorists were prepared to blow themselves up the moment they knew someone was attempting a rescue operation.

Its pathetic that in light of such events some people are trying to fulfil their East vs West superiority complex, you people disgust me almost as much as the people who caused these events to begin with.
:angry:
 
fantasiser said:
Its pathetic that in light of such events some people are trying to fulfil their East vs West superiority complex, you people disgust me almost as much as the people who caused these events to begin with.
:angry:
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I was actualy trying to remove that false sentiment of security, but apparently no one believes me... :borg:
 
lePobz said:
They're missing a few brain cells if they think doing such things can actually promote their cause to anyone.

Anyone with such braincells intact would realise that the powers-at-be can never give-in to terrorisim otherwise everyone with an opinion would want to terrorise something to get their way.
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Yes, it really didn't add up to me why they would think that harming children would promote their cause.
Also, as you say, governments can't really give in and so there's no way that Russia would pull out of Chechnya over that one incident. Plus, Putin is ex-KGB and he doesn't f*ck about.

Generally I like Russia, but I don't really agree with their actions in Chechnya. I know it's not black and white, but even so... I find it somewhat ironic that the Chechen issue, like that with China and Tibet, very rarely comes up in the news. However when it's a less powerful country taking similar actions, there's a media storm and an international scandal.

fantasiser said:
Its pathetic that in light of such events some people are trying to fulfil their East vs West superiority complex, you people disgust me almost as much as the people who caused these events to begin with.
:angry:
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It's a discussion of this issue in international politics and you can't truly understand it without looking around the elements that caused and fuel it. Your sentiment is really overly harsh.
 
300 people, of which maybe 100 were children, were killed in Rwanda only some weeks ago. Howcome they spoke so little about that, and so much about this?
 
The_Monkey said:
300 people, of which maybe 100 were children, were killed in Rwanda only some weeks ago. Howcome they spoke so little about that, and so much about this?
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[SARCASM]Rwanda is in Africa. Who cares? [/SARCASM]
 
Sprafa said:
OMFG...

can you be a little more blind?
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What is with your trolling lately? Its getting a bit ridiculus. I can understand hating Bush, but you've been trolling everywhere.
 
blahblahblah said:
What is with your trolling lately? Its getting a bit ridiculus. I can understand hating Bush, but you've been trolling everywhere.
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trolling?

"The Russian Army sucks" is the reason I've called him blind. Not Bush. Bush is a dead subject. I'll make a thread about him soon, but for now he's dead.
 
Sprafa said:
trolling?

"The Russian Army sucks" is the reason I've called him blind. Not Bush. Bush is a dead subject. I'll make a thread about him soon, but for now he's dead.
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~

Sprafa said:
go by www.writingforums.com and get a writer.

Your story sucks IMO.
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Sprafa said:
For the last time, they are not revamping anything. it's a direct port, they're not making models, sounds, anything. The most important thing you'll see is physics, lighting and the water.
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You just seem a harsher than normal. You usually are a cool person. ;(
 
Bleh... The russians did nothing wrong here. From what I have heard, the roof collapsed, children started running out of the school and the hostage takers started shooting at them. The russians were forced to move in. When 40 crazy men/women enter a school with weapons and explosives, a high casualty rate is inevitable. And quit bothering Sprafa, he speaks his case with arguments, not crap. Crap is the weapon of the troll. Arguments is the weapon of the intellectual.
 
blahblahblah said:
~

You just seem a harsher than normal. You usually are a cool person. ;(
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I'm extremely sad right now because I realized a few hours ago Bush can win.

So yes, my trolling is indirectly related to Bush.

And thanks for the compliment....
 
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