SDK - Soul Destroying Kit?

[63]

It's news because the moderators call it news.

Welcome to internet forums, kid.

Yeah no kidding.

 

[Vegeta897]

If I write "JELLYBEANS" on a bag full of shit, it doesn't magically change it into jellybeans.

News that isn't news doesn't become news just because you call it news.

But your sarcasm is adorable.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT AN EDITORIAL IS

JESUS ****

 

[A Big Fat CoW]

There's a pretty big difference between an intelligent, well constructed, thought provoking editorial, and someone just bitching about as if their opinion matters and posting it on the front page. In my opinion, the post in question falls into the latter category.

Just seems like this site is getting desperate, is all.

 

[Vegeta897]

Desperate would be posting about insignificant mod media updates consisting of unskinned AK47 models and terrible concept art drawings.

At least this is original content, both in the subject matter and the fact that it was written by one of our own people.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

There's a pretty big difference between an intelligent, well constructed, thought provoking editorial, and someone just bitching about as if their opinion matters and posting it on the front page. In my opinion, the post in question falls into the latter category.

Just seems like this site is getting desperate, is all.

Yeah, you're right. We're so desperate for news to post that I just pretty much sat at my keyboard and hammered on the keys.

It was something I felt strongly about and so I decided to write an editorial about it. Interestingly, you and your opinion seem to be in the minority here.

 

[Krynn72]

This site needs more things like this. Frankly this was one of the most interesting thing's I've read on here recently. Not a dig on the site, just saying I liked this kind of article.

 

[Barnz]

I'd love to see more articles from Pi.

 

[windlab]

Hi all, I'm windlab, and I came here after Pi's article was linked to over at Interlopers.net

The article (quite rightly) caused a stir, for though criticism of the Source SDK is nothing new (a section of the Wikipedia page is even dedicated to its criticism), this is the first time in a while the issues with the SDK have been dragged into the public spectrum.

A Steam group with the aim of raising these issues with Valve has been set up, and a thread started here for organisational purposes.
Please show your support by joining the Steam group, and together we will achieve that which isn't possible individually.

I am open for communication via PM, or Steam, and I will always attempt to reply within 24hours.
Thanks for reading, and cred to Pi Mu Rho for speaking up.

 

[Asknoone]

This just in: Valve fly Pi out to Seattle for him to test run the SDK updates.

 

[Druckles]

I assumed the awkward, tedious and fiddly features of the SDK was a rite of passage.

 

[DarkDamo]

The only engine I ever actually enjoyed working with is Unity3D. Freaking brilliant engine and toolset. Native Maya/3DSmax support? HELL YEA

The tools for Unity3D are nice, although I hate the overall engine so much. As a programmer I have come to hate Unity for the fact that I was merely a scripter when using it. Want to debug that line of code? Hell no, we don't do no code debuggin here. Get back to your fancy engines.

I think this is the thing Valve need to focus on. I'm sure they've got competition from Epic and their U3 engine.

I don't even put Source and UE3 (tools) on the same page. I have used Hammer for a bit and UE3 as well and UE3 blows Source out of the water in my eyes. UE3, while initially unstable as shit (UDK is much more stable), was a whole lot more easy and intuitive to use. I haven't done much coding in either engine but Source does get points for being c++ based

Whenever I open Hammer I feel like I have gone back 10 years. It doesn't feel like the tool set for a modern engine at all.

 

[A Big Fat CoW]

Yeah, you're right. We're so desperate for news to post that I just pretty much sat at my keyboard and hammered on the keys.

It was something I felt strongly about and so I decided to write an editorial about it. Interestingly, you and your opinion seem to be in the minority here.

Once again, your sarcasm is adorable.

So I'm not allowed to have an opinion if it doesn't coincide with the majority? I'm just saying that I didn't like the article. I guess having an opinion must be against the rules now.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Your ability to (mis)read between the lines is even more adorable.

Did anyone say you couldn't have an opinion that goes against the majority? Were you told, or was it even hinted that having an opinion was against the rules?

Climb down off that cross and stop being such a fool.
My point was exactly as stated - you didn't see the article as being newsworthy, but the majority of people so far have. So congratulations on not only completely missing the point, but also on completely making up your own.

Round of applause, please. A Big Fat CoW, ladies and gentlemen!

 

[Vegeta897]

No, you weren't just saying you didn't like the article. You were saying hl2.net must be 'desperate' for content because someone wrote an editorial. Makes no sense, and you completely ignored Pi's (and my) answer.

 

[Krynn72]

The tools for Unity3D are nice, although I hate the overall engine so much. As a programmer I have come to hate Unity for the fact that I was merely a scripter when using it. Want to debug that line of code? Hell no, we don't do no code debuggin here. Get back to your fancy engines.

Haha, well, I can't attest to anything on the programming end. But I was using it as an artist and gameplay designer at my last job, and it was bliss for what I was doing. Especially after working on a proprietary engine for so long *shudder*

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

As an interesting (to some) aside, I fixed my major current problem with the SDK, by the equivalent of applying ducttape, strategically-positioned pencils, painting half of my face blue and hopping on one leg while gargling the national anthem.
That was a metaphor, obviously. The actual solution was similarly stupid and nonsensical, though.

I'd also like add as a corollary to my last response to ABFC that this article has stirred up a lot of interest, enough so that a major campaign is now underway to try to get Valve to deal with some of the issues. I take no credit for this, but I'm happy to have been the catalyst.

 

[windlab]

Hi everyone

Due to the unnecessarily long and cumbersome nature of the old group name (AOGIMMDRSDKI! (SDK outdated)) (even all that was an abbreviation), a new group has been created due to the lack of an ability to change group names.

The new group is named the SDK Improvement Group, and you are cordially invited/requested/compelled to join, and leave the old group if you were a part of it already.

The links contained in my last post have been updated, as always, the coordination thread (when not taking place in the Steam group chat) can be found on Interlopers.

I will continue to monitor this thread, and can always be contacted.

 

[A Big Fat CoW]

Wow, you guys sure showed me. Score!

Grow up. This whole thing started when I asked an inoffensive question and was insulted for it, and every step of the way my responses have been met with sarcasm, condescension, and more insults. If I'm on a cross, as you say, it's because you put me there.

The only point that I'm trying to make is that I don't think this article should have been on the front page. That's my opinion. I'm not insulting anyone for disagreeing with me (unlike my opposition, it seems), I'm just saying that I don't like it. It seems, to me, to be more like a rant someone would write for a blog, than a news editorial. I'm sorry that my opinion isn't the popular one, but there it is.

If posting it has caused good things for the community, such as improvements to the SDK, cool. Good for you. I just think that the article could have been written from a more objective perspective.

 

[Krynn72]

I'm sorry

Apology accepted.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Wow, you guys sure showed me. Score!

Grow up. This whole thing started when I asked an inoffensive question and was insulted for it, and every step of the way my responses have been met with sarcasm, condescension, and more insults. If I'm on a cross, as you say, it's because you put me there.

Shouldn't that tell you something, perhaps?

The only point that I'm trying to make is that I don't think this article should have been on the front page. That's my opinion. I'm not insulting anyone for disagreeing with me (unlike my opposition, it seems), I'm just saying that I don't like it. It seems, to me, to be more like a rant someone would write for a blog, than a news editorial. I'm sorry that my opinion isn't the popular one, but there it is.

Yes, it was your opinion, which you were allowed to air. That doesn't make it sacrosanct, though, and people are allowed to disagree with it (just like you are). Also, you have quite the post history of being abusive and argumentative. You reap what you sow.

If posting it has caused good things for the community, such as improvements to the SDK, cool. Good for you. I just think that the article could have been written from a more objective perspective.

There, that wasn't too hard now, was it?

 

[ZoFreX]

While at first I was like "why is this on the front page?" I actually found it really informative. I had a discussion elsewhere just last week regarding why more developers don't use the Source engine, and the relative weakness of the SDK was my answer. I haven't used it for a few years though, I'm sad to hear that if anything it has gotten worse. I certainly won't be going back if batch compiling is broken, that was absolutely essential.

Does it matter? I'm not sure. Valve are making plenty of money, and it would take a lot of time and effort to polish the SDK. Even then, the engine itself is also basically made for Valve's purposes, not anyone elses, so even with a good SDK I doubt that many people would want to use it (versus UE which was designed to be a 3rd party engine, or CryTek with its live editing/testing).

 

[Varsity]

FYI:

To find resources in GCF files, VBSP must be started in %sourcesdk%\bin\orangebox\ (or ep1 as the case may be). You can do this with the cd command, or by setting the "Start In" value of a Windows shortcut. In Batch Compiler, set the BinRoot variable.

The whole SDK launcher can also be skipped with the Source SDK Windows Gadget.

 

[Bluestrike]

Play around with Unity for awhile, and you'll be pissed whenever you go back to UDK/anything else.

That said, yes. UDK is much more user-friendly than the Source SDK. I just hate the whole package system they use, and how I have to build shit every 3 minutes to see what the changes actually look like. Their approximations suck.

The tools for Unity3D are nice, although I hate the overall engine so much. As a programmer I have come to hate Unity for the fact that I was merely a scripter when using it. Want to debug that line of code? Hell no, we don't do no code debuggin here. Get back to your fancy engines.

Having worked with the sourceSDK & hammer and Unity3D,
from my leveldesign point of view I would have hammer any day over unity,
on that field Unity just sucks.
Tough I have to say Unity is always improving and the 3.0 release will have lightmappers and some better snapping etc.
The terrain still does not feature materials and there are things you can do with source its displacements that you can't with untity terrain and vice versa.

The reason I use unity at this time is because I am new and coding and had no clue where to start with the source SDK while unity is well documented and probably a good way to start of people like me ;-)

I'd say no SDK or tool is perfect unless somebody merges them all into one and makes it stable ;-P

 

[Shinobi]

The Bad

Hammer is archaic, it needs a lighting preview badly, the sourceSDK launcher has a habit of breaking the day you planned to get all your stuff finished for a new patch, but the worst thing is the art pipeline. Getting a model into the source engine with proper looking materials etc takes an order of magnitude longer than other current engines.

I could almost code a model inline into an XNA viewer as fast as I can get a model looking good in Source.

The Good (and why I keep working on it)

Source multiplayer games just "feel" better than other multiplayer games. I think it mostly has to do with the inherited quake input system.

Also doing BSP mapping is still the best on Source, I can still bang out a map in a weekend for fun if I want to

That said, I am moving on to other engines, I do Source mapping as a side hobby, but it's not as prevalent as it used to be.

 

[Kaptain H]

Hammer is archaic, it needs a lighting preview badly, the sourceSDK launcher has a habit of breaking the day you planned to get all your stuff finished for a new patch, but the worst thing is the art pipeline. Getting a model into the source engine with proper looking materials etc takes an order of magnitude longer than other current engines.

Ugh, this is so true. I'm building a large set of custom art asset's for my friend's Art Pass contest TF2 map. The fact that you can't even scale meshes in the editor is insane. I spend more time on all the extra steps than I do on the art itself, which makes iteration and trial-by-error solutions quite time consuming.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

I still can't see any reason at all why there's nothing in Hammer to import textures or models. It's nonsensical.

Yeah, and scalable meshes would be nice.

 

[ríomhaire]

Ugh, this is so true. I'm building a large set of custom art asset's for my friend's Art Pass contest TF2 map. The fact that you can't even scale meshes in the editor is insane. I spend more time on all the extra steps than I do on the art itself, which makes iteration and trial-by-error solutions quite time consuming.

Isn't one of the rules of that contest that you cannot use outside help?

 

[Kyorisu]

At least working with Alien Swarm the compile window is separate from Hammer. The one thing that has always annoyed me.

 

[Kaptain H]

Isn't one of the rules of that contest that you cannot use outside help?

He's doing all of the world building himself, and it's his map. It is actually stated in the rules that you're allowed to art from other people, as long as you have permission from the artists and have access to the source files upon submission.

 

[Shinobi]

At least working with Alien Swarm the compile window is separate from Hammer. The one thing that has always annoyed me.

batch files.... the only way to go