Secret spying, the Constitution

[$kelet0r]

wow he's actually responding to people
but why is he picking on kerberos? no </3 for you kathaksung

 

[Sulkdodds]

So if another attack occurs in the UK, will you be inclined to blame your Ministry of Intelligence? Or does it seem easier to just simply blame the King and Queen?

Or, perhaps you could blame should another attack occur, the people that whined and restricited governmental power to stop terrorists. How about for a start, you blame the terrorists who commit the acts themselves, and start falling in line to prevent their attacks a bit, eh?

Looks like you didn't read the rest of the post (or you're ignoring it). Plus, I don't remember all this shit when the IRA was attacking us every goddamn weekend. Admittedly I don't remember because I wasn't born. But that's not the point!

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Looks like you didn't read the rest of the post.

Oh really, did you edit it a bit?

The government has absolutely no right to eavesdrop on anyone without a warrant.

Well, you might have, but I quoted this from you instead of your entire post. It caught my eye -- so, I pose a question to you:

Is the government Psychic? No. So the only way to find terrorists is to follow possible leads, wether those leads were developed by your own governments investigation or not. In the time it takes to get a warrant, and the time it takes to issue it, is the only time needed by a terrorist to make his attack or his escape.

To be truthfully honest, I don't feel uncomfortable about my government spying. If they happen to spy on me, I know I'm a decent citizen and they'll find nothing whilst their investigating me anyway. You only worry if your guilty, I say.

Do you suggest to spy on every citizen?

For your question, I pose this rhetoric to you which should be sufficient enough as an answer. Suppose "they", the powers that be, already have. Would it be wrong now if I made the suggestion?

Now, I ask you this. Suppose they have spied on everyone at least once and then stopped? Everyone that they spied on, everyone that they researched, would have changed in under a days time that they were being watched. In order to see this kind of change occur, the government would infact be forced to lead a spy program that watched everyone 24 hours of the day, 7 days a week.

Do you know the amount of resources, manpower, and hours that would take to facilitate a program like that? Realistically, were talking about something that would most certainly drain millions or possibly billions. The demand in technology and agents specifically, including field training and the cooperation of other law enforcement agencies would've surely have burst the bubble.

It is not feesible to say the Government could be watching us 24/7. Although, what I was suggesting is, that if perhaps the Government was watching people and they just so happened to watch me, what would I have to hide?

Can I call you on your fears for a moment? Thank you. Your worried about an Orwellian Government with an Orwellian Power. Your worried that your freedom of speech, and right of intellect, will be crushed by the rise of the right. Bull.Shit. Lets play this scenario, shall we? [Government Spying] So, lets assume the Governments spying on you. Have you said anything worth investigation?

Possible Vectors?

[I hate Bush -- I wish he would die, or someone would assasinate him]
[I disagree with this administration -- I just hope we get someone better then him next year]
[I don't like the war in Iraq; it was a lie to go, and the people who follow it are being brainwashed by the conservative right]
- OR -
[I would help the terrorists if they came over here -- Capitlism needs to fall]
[If Al-Qaeda came to me with a bomb, I would make myself a Martyr against Congress]
[I've contacted Rasd Al-Bayha about the bomb, were going to move together after the American Highschools let out, and plant the device on one of the buses]

The first three, you would easily not be arrested for. *You would'nt even be snorted at* ... oh, and speaking of which! You could be faping to *Horse Porn*analy sodomizing yourself with the pronged end of a fork, toe ****ing your 14 year old sister, and screaming this at the top of your lungs, AND YET STILL ... you would not be arrested. None would care of you, or your actions. Nobody. Would. Care. Your not that important ... maybe a bit ... interesting, but not important. Not worth mentioning. Again, nobody gives a shit.

The last three however, might be somewhat of a problem. The first, might show a potential sign or empathy for terrorism and its attacks on civilians. This means that you might possibly be willing to give shelter or help to terrorists who are planning to carry out attacks on our soil. You probably would'nt be arrested, but you'd be looked at a lot more then say, your actual Arabic Neighbor whose said diddly squat but ordered the porn "Desert Sins" off of HBO.

The second statement, might generate more of a problem, but the Government would not move in. Its just a statement of words, and they need more concrete evidence. Plus, its Freedom of Speech. They're not nabbing you for that.

The Third One however, would alarm them, and wether or not they moved would be up to them. But the last three, is what would alarm me anyways. So, what have you said more of? The first three, or the last three? They're guesses nonetheless, but to return to your statement of; "Do you suggest we spy on every citizen?."

No. Watching Horse Porn whilst toe ****ing young girls and giving yourself anal erm simulation, with the pronged end of a fork as a butt toy is well ... um, not worth spying on. Desert Sins is'int the revival of the failed Al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades ... although the sins that occur in their deserts is something for intereptation. Anyways, we won't quite know the extent or the progress of this spying program anyways. Suffice to say we did know, we would'nt be asking each other these odd questions.

However, do I say, we should investigate more on possible terrorists, cooperate with other countries on their terror leads, and spy on the terrorists directly? Yes. Thats what I will say.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Is the government Psychic? No. So the only way to find terrorists is to follow possible leads, wether those leads were developed by your own governments investigation or not. In the time it takes to get a warrant, and the time it takes to issue it, is the only time needed by a terrorist to make his attack or his escape.

To be truthfully honest, I don't feel uncomfortable about my government spying. If they happen to spy on me, I know I'm a decent citizen and they'll find nothing whilst their investigating me anyway. You only worry if your guilty, I say.

No. My point is that you shouldn't need to bypass the whole warrant thing. Is it that hard to get one? Does it take that long? If there's a real threat of terrorism then surely it shouldn't. Are terrorists able to act that quickly? If they've got to the point where they can, you've already failed, and wire-tapping isn't going to save a single person. I wouldn't mind being eavesdropped on THAT much either personally - but whether one person minds personally isn't the point. No offence, but the US government doesn't have that great a record when it comes to convicting people with good reason. Remember the 'terrorist' disneyland video? Whoops.

"You have nothing to fear unless you're guilty" has never worked. Go look up the Birmingham Six and tell me nobody ever gets wrongly convicted on little or no evidence.

 

[Pajari]

No, the water vapor trails in the sky are not mind-control chemicals.
Yes, we really landed on the moon.
NOTHING HAPPENED AT ROSWELL JESUS IT WAS JUST A WEATHER BALOON.
Flouride is a harmless, tooth-decay preventing chemical.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Correct. They're infertility chemicals.
Yes, we really landed on the moon - but only to install a space-based laser array.
ROSWELL WAS FAKED BY THE US GOVERNMENT TO DISTRACT US FROM THE REAL TRUTH
Flouride is a harmless tooth-decaying chemical.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Kathkasung, the government has been trying to kill you for well over a decade now, but they have never succeeded.

Clearly you have defeated the government through the sheer power of your immortality.

Now you must defeat our reptilian overlords!

http://www.reptilianagenda.com/menu.shtml

 

[K e r b e r o s]

No. My point is that you shouldn't need to bypass the whole warrant thing.

Why would getting warrants be important?

Are terrorists able to act that quickly?

Yes, just as quickly as they need to.

If they've got to the point where they can, you've already failed, and wire-tapping isn't going to save a single person.

However, not all terrorists are going to know the system, so declaring an absolute (is'int doing any good no matter what if so) in this case would only be a half-truth.

Not all of the terrorists are going to have the technology, but whats being proven over in Iraq is when that technology becomes available, they get it quicker then our military does.

A flaw with our military and government? Perhaps. But thats a discussion for another time so, until then, we should utilize this system to not only track the terrorists but track how they manage to punch holes in its security.

I wouldn't mind being eavesdropped on THAT much either personally - but whether one person minds personally isn't the point. No offence, but the US government doesn't have that great a record when it comes to convicting people with good reason. Remember the 'terrorist' disneyland video? Whoops.

How does that last example tie into what you feel personally about Eavesdropping? I would much rather my skin saved, and everyone elses, thanks to some restraint. And, in the face of already having been spied on, I continue to speak whatever comes to my mind because I'm not afraid.

"You have nothing to fear unless you're guilty" has never worked.

But in the end are'nt most of the guilty almost always convicted? I'am not afraid of statistics of this for I'am prepared to debate them, but as I've said, since we don't know the extent or the controls of the program itself, then we have nothing to fear unless your guilty is all thats ever going to work.

As for your last comment about the Birmingham six, good point, but it does'nt deal entirely with the record of a spying program of this nature. Nethire does it deal with my Government.

 

[Sulkdodds]

1. The point with the disneyland example is that (and I'm going to say 'your government' here, even though maybe you didn't vote for it, it's not the only one, etc) your government does not have a good track record in working out the difference between phantoms thrown up by their own fear and real terrorist plots. You're telling me you're totally comfortable being spied on with no checks or balances by a government that's so damn scared of arabs under the bed it interprets a sightseeing video as a complicated visual code dictating where bombs should be placed? There are other examples as I'm sure you're aware; this is the best and the most memorable and I have niether the time nor the inclination to research a load of examples for you (although I'll give it a go if I must. D

2. The Birmingham Six example was used because it happened here, where I live, and where I'm studying law. I'm sure I could find some similiar examples if I was more familiar with American history and events. The point: it's very easy for paranoia and the hate that comes from it to take over and push out any need for evidence.

When there isn't a check on spying, or arresting people, or whatever, you get problems. Not because it necessarily means that suddenly we're going to teleport into 1984, but because it means that the system can be abused. It's not like warrant = guarantee of perfect freedom/morality etc but if they DON'T get one, what exactly is stopping them from just being totally evil and corrup? Their conscience? What, you trust your government to only make the guilty suffer? I know I wouldn't trust mine.

 

[bigburpco]

Kathkasung, the government has been trying to kill you for well over a decade now, but they have never succeeded.

Clearly you have defeated the government through the sheer power of your immortality.

Now you must defeat our reptilian overlords!

http://www.reptilianagenda.com/menu.shtml

He's hired Chuck Norris; we are no match for him!

 

[K e r b e r o s]

1. The point with the disneyland example is that (and I'm going to say 'your government' here, even though maybe you didn't vote for it, it's not the only one, etc) your government does not have a good track record in working out the difference between phantoms thrown up by their own fear and real terrorist plots. You're telling me you're totally comfortable being spied on with no checks or balances by a government that's so damn scared of arabs under the bed it interprets a sightseeing video as a complicated visual code dictating where bombs should be placed?

Yes, I'm really telling you this. Why am I so secure with it? Simple. Because it does not yet exist, and, maybe once we learn a little bit more of the program only then can we determine the extent of this "watching" were even comfortable with.

I'm fine with it. I have nothing to hide. Do you?

 

[Solaris]

I'm fine with it. I have nothing to hide. Do you?

You affect the results by observation.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

You affect the results by observation.

But did you answer my question ... wait, your not even a citizen here. Now that I think of it, it does'nt really concern you (my question) but instead concerns other people in my country.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I'm fine with it. I have nothing to hide. Do you?

Yes. I MEAN NO! D:
Your statement misses the point. It's irrelevant whether you have something to hide or not; there is danger even to those who have nothing to hide, because of fear and because of fanaticism. Birmingham 6. Six men arrested on minimal evidence and faked confessions because of paranoia caused by terrorist attacks. They were innocent; they had nothing to hide. But it didn't matter. My own Brighton's Omar. He moved to Pakistan to get away from the war in Afghanistan, was picked up by bounty hunters and guess what? Now he's in Guantanamo. He hadn't done anything wrong but that didn't matter. Sure, that's not directly related to the matter of spying, but it's the same principle: sometimes it doesn't matter if you've got nothing to hide or if you've done nothing wrong. I'm not saying this shit becomes the norm when you start secretly spying on people, but it ALLOWS this stuff to happen. It creates an opening.

 

[Solaris]

But did you answer my question ... wait, your not even a citizen here. Now that I think of it, it does'nt really concern you (my question) but instead concerns other people in my country.

Don't be a dick

 

[kathaksung]

Originally Posted by Kerberos
I'm fine with it. I have nothing to hide. Do you?

Every person has his privacy. Clinton may think sameway as you do. He was humiliated by Lewinsky scandal. Probably you never have a girl friend,or you satisfy with a slave's life. You work for your master, he gave you a comfortable modern slave's life. A willing slave doesn't need freedom. Because he really has nothing to hide. I understand you.

But for others they do need privacy. Our founding father and law makers even made a Constitution to protect their civil right. The law is to protect them from corruptive government officials. Now it proves they have foresight. What they worried happens now.

370. The corrupt D.O.J. attacks (1/2/06)

The purpose of 4th Amendment is to protect people from evil activities (set up, plant) of corrupt law enforcement agent.

If corrupt official plant fake evidence at your home. (gun, drugs) And asked for a search warrant. Judge would asked him for evidence. The corrupt official couldn't say:" Because I suspect it." That's how domestic criminal law requires. It depends on Evidence not suspicion.
The official also couldn't say, "I knew it because I had a search already." That's unreasonable search. (warrantless search) It's illegal.

FISA standard is low. Law enforcement official can request a warrant on suspicion not evidence. But there is a wall to forbid it be used in domestic criminal law. Otherwise 4th amendment will mean nothing.

Corrupt officials plant fake evidence at your home. Then apply a warrant from FISA. Say they suspect you are a terrorist. They get a warrant then found the "evidence"(gun, drug) at your home. That's how the 4th Amendment bypassed. A foreign intelligence method is used in domestic criminal law. Though D.O.J. said Patriot Act gave them such privilege, there is at least a FISA court watch their behavior.

Now they even don't need a FISA approval. They authorize themselves the right to search and arrest. To give the order to search in name of save lives of citizens. Is it for "security" or rather, abusing power? When it goes, the Constitution means nothing. It allows unlimited power of police search and arrest. (to be continued)

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Probably you never have a girl friend

Hahaha, Kerberos got served - by kathkasung!

Corrupt officials plant fake evidence at your home.

Who exactly is placing what fake evidence?

You can't just base your accusations on imaginary stuff, or you are just as reliant on fake evidence.

 

[OvA]

kathkasung is a legend. LEGEND.

 

[15357]

kathkasung is a legend. LEGEND.

He must be shot! He is a dissident and a threat to the societal order that we all have worked so hard, and even sacrificed to bring to frution!

Imagine entire cities being burnt and going up on smoke. Is that the future that you wanted, strived for, and also fought for? Total anarchy is what he'll bring to us. You must not listen to him. If there is to be a future in mankind, it will not be through listening to evil anarchists. It will be through the collaboration and cooperation of us, the citizens that we will have stability and safety.

Long live the military.

 

[kathaksung]

He must be shot! He is a dissident and a threat to the societal order that we all have worked so hard, and even sacrificed to bring to frution!

Imagine entire cities being burnt and going up on smoke. Is that the future that you wanted, strived for, and also fought for? Total anarchy is what he'll bring to us. You must not listen to him. If there is to be a future in mankind, it will not be through listening to evil anarchists. It will be through the collaboration and cooperation of us, the citizens that we will have stability and safety.

Long live the military.

This is typical corruptive official to blackmail people with intimidation. They had planned it alreay. DC sniper shooting spree; 911 bombing...... all resembled to the plan of Northwood operation.

Who should be shot? The men who planned to kill innocent people in the name of terrorist? Or the men who reveal it?

109. Beware another terror attack

I've alleged government insiders made the OKC bombing, anthrax attack, sniper case and allowed 911 attack to happen to grip more police power and push for war in Mid-east. Some people argued how could government kill their own people. Compare the recent news and the revelation of the book. Beware another terror attack from our own government. (though always disguised as "enemy combatant" and "terrorist")

News: Within the past three weeks, US intelligence gathered what officials at Scott Air Force Base described as credible evidence of a planned bombing of a passenger airliner contracted to fly troops and freight for the military. (1/13/03, San Jose Mercury News)

Book: They called for hijacking jet airliners, attacking US military bases, blowing up US ships and wounding civilians in Miami, Florida and Washington, DC using paramilitary sniper teams . (northwoods story)

Operation Northwoods
Our U.S. Government Planned To Attack
"We The People"
Former ABC News investigative reporter James Bamford . Broke the Northwoods Story in His Book, Body of Secrets . It is based mostly on documents obtained through the Freedom of Information Act or found in government archives.

"We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington," said one document reportedly prepared by the Joint Chiefs of Staff. "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," the document says. "Casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of indignation."

http://www.retakingamerica.com/northwoods_page_1.html


USA Today - Bush wrong to use pretext as excuse to invade Iraq <http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2002-08-29-usat-opin-bamford_x.htm> "The answer was Operation Northwoods "

ABC News - Friendly Fire Book: U.S. Military Drafted Plans to Terrorize U.S. Cities to Provoke War With Cuba <http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html>"America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties "

 

[Solaris]

Kathakasung is completely right there.

 

[15357]

Where are the feds when you need them? They always ignore NIS calls.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Numbers is a government agent? He can't even think good!

I'm way more qualified than Numbers is.

 

[15357]

Numbers is a government agent? He can't even think good!

I'm way more qualified than Numbers is.

You don't have to think good. You only need to obey. And issue orders.

 

[15357]

You should apply, though if you think you're qualified enough.

Its a good job, rather stable and hazard pay too.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Yes. I MEAN NO! D:
Your statement misses the point. It's irrelevant whether you have something to hide or not; there is danger even to those who have nothing to hide, because of fear and because of fanaticism.

Perhaps so, but again, being arrested by the government for beliefs or what I do in privacy is not a concern for me.

Thats just the type of person I'am -- why I'm like this is because again, we don't know the extent of the program or its intended operations. Because of that, I can't judge it to be right or wrong, but only in the terms its been handed to us (trying to stop terrorists).

Again, once I know the extent of it, then I will judge.

Dont be a dick

So I'm a dick. I can't help that. What, are you complaing because your possibly a pussy? Or an asshole? Let me tell you this: Pussies don't like us dicks because pussies get ****ed by the dicks. But dicks also **** assholes. Assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can **** a asshole is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is they **** too much or **** when it isn't appropriate. And it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves. Because pussies are a inch and half away from assholes. I don't know much about this crazy crazy world, but I do know this. ...

Hahaha, Kerberos got served - by kathkasung!

Quiet you! Or, I'll make you a part of my evil right wing S&M Agenda! You'll call me Kerrboss, and I'll call you Mecca Godzilla. I'll whip you painfully with Conservative Films and blogs! You'll roll over in agony, spooing to the pain! And You'll whimper and beg for more! Wachi!Wachi! <cracking of whips>

 

[Solaris]

So I'm a dick. I can't help that. What, are you complaing because your possibly a pussy? Or an asshole? Let me tell you this: Pussies don't like us dicks because pussies get ****ed by the dicks. But dicks also **** assholes. Assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can **** a asshole is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is they **** too much or **** when it isn't appropriate. And it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves. Because pussies are a inch and half away from assholes. I don't know much about this crazy crazy world, but I do know this. ...

What? I called you a dick becuase when I enterd with a valid comment, you said it doesn't concern me and not to join the thread becuase I'm not an American. NewsFlash this isn't an American message board, and anybodys free to join whatever thread they want. Until there Bant.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

What? I called you a dick becuase when I enterd with a valid comment, you said it doesn't concern me and not to join the thread becuase I'm not an American. NewsFlash this isn't an American message board, and anybodys free to join whatever thread they want. Until there Bant.

A valid comment? I don't consider calling someone a 'dick' valid in an arguement. Even if they are one, it still does'nt make your arguement more acceptable to the person your calling a dick.

Lastily, I was'nt stating this was an American Board, but this is however about Secret Spying and the American constitution. Your in Ireland. How is this is a concern for you?

 

[Sulkdodds]

1. Because he cares.
2. Because you can't tell anyone what to give a shit about.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

1. Because he cares.
2. Because you can't tell anyone what to give a shit about.

1. Its nice that he cares, but his arguements in this thread have been pretty nill. Infact, everyone's has for that matter. I applaud his concern, but I don't go worrying about what happens in Ireland, now do I?
2. Oh, I was'nt telling what to care about. I was asking why he cares. See, you generalized a little to quickly. I'll even restate the question I asked.

How is this is a concern for you?

My exact question, thank you Sulkdodds for ignoring it.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Actually, first you told him straight up that it didn't concern him.

But did you answer my question ... wait, your not even a citizen here. Now that I think of it, it does'nt really concern you but instead concerns other people in my country.

Which is stupid. It's always been stupid no matter how much anyone's said it. It's like 'you don't live here; you're not allowed to care about it.' So nobody's allowed to care about foreign wars, about genocide in distant countries, about famine or disaster if it doesn't concern them? (Note I'm just giving random examples there so don't go ranting at me for saying America is committing genocide or something). Also:

Perhaps so, but again, being arrested by the government for beliefs or what I do in privacy is not a concern for me. Thats just the type of person I'am -- why I'm like this is because again, we don't know the extent of the program or its intended operations. Because of that, I can't judge it to be right or wrong, but only in the terms its been handed to us (trying to stop terrorists).

Ah, so what you're basically saying is "I don't care as long as it doesn't affect me. And because we don't know much about it, I'll just believe the government and believe that it's 'essential to stop terrorism'. Correct me where I'm wrong there because I might well have misread your post.

I don't go worrying about what happens in Ireland, now do I?

That's your lookout. Doesn't mean everyone else should follow your example.

 

[Solaris]

A valid comment? I don't consider calling someone a 'dick' valid in an arguement. Even if they are one, it still does'nt make your arguement more acceptable to the person your calling a dick.

Lastily, I was'nt stating this was an American Board, but this is however about Secret Spying and the American constitution. Your in Ireland. How is this is a concern for you?

No my valid comment was about Having to prove who you are, and you responded with, it doesn't concern you your not an American, god I wish what America did didn't concern everyone else, but it does becuase the majority of you are stupid and thus keep invading the world, and making us all having to keep an eye on everything you do, becuase we might be next.

For instance was in irealand over the holiday:
Walking up a hill, see loads of gates left open sheep everywhere, then theres a big Warrior, or some massive hired car like that. Further up theres two fat American women, sweating.

American Women: "What are thoose white things in the fields?"
My Uncle: "Sheep"
AW "What do they do?"
MU "We make clothes out of there wool, and eat there meat."
AW "We get our meat from McDonalds."

I know that isn't representative, and theres loads of great American people, I've been there twice and Americas pretty cool but still, you elected Bush.

1. Its nice that he cares, but his arguements in this thread have been pretty nill. Infact, everyone's has for that matter. I applaud his concern, but I don't go worrying about what happens in Ireland, now do I?

Were not going to invade you.


And FYI I live in the UK.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

So nobody's allowed to care about foreign wars, about genocide in distant countries, about famine or disaster if it doesn't concern them?

I'm not saying that anyone should'nt. But then again, this thread has'nt been about a foreign war, racial Genocides in Uganda, or Famine in Bangladesh, although it has been about secret spying and the US Constitution, how do those things tie in with this thread? General reasons yes, of what someone can care about, but there has'nt been much talk of those things in the Politics section. At least not for a very long time.

However back on topic, I asked Solaris why he would concern himself over such things. But even though I asked why, I still have'nt got an answer. Telling me its none of my concern to query as to why someone would care is a little unfair don't you think?

But then again, I did finally get an answer.

Ah, so what you're basically saying is "I don't care as long as it doesn't affect me. And because we don't know much about it, I'll just believe the government and believe that it's 'essential to stop terrorism'. Correct me where I'm wrong there because I might well have misread your post.

How long have I been saying that? We don't know the extent of it, or how far the spying penetrates therefore, we can't nessecarly persecute the program except by name, has been coined "Secret Spying". Because we don't know the strength of it we also cannot nessecarly asess if its been good or bad at this point.

Until we know more about it, I won't be entirely concerned, but rest assured will keep on eye out.

That's your lookout. Doesn't mean everyone else should follow your example.

Indeed it is. But I don't feel alone in it -- half of the Politics section, or the good majority of it, is dedicated to US Law, US Crimes, (or crimes against humanity), US Gun Laws, the US Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and future US Wars that anyone could think of, and lastily but not leastily, a US Black Conspiracy to rule over everyone with the Pretenses of Orwelles, "Big Brother" theory.

I think after awhile, some of us must get tired of just hearing about our own country. Maybe I should worry about whats going on in other parts of the world not involving America, just to spruce things up a bit in the forum.

I think everyone needs to attempt at reserving judgement for when its time would be most accurate.

No my valid comment was about Having to prove who you are, and you responded with, it doesn't concern you your not an American, god I wish what America did didn't concern everyone else, but it does becuase the majority of you are stupid and thus keep invading the world, and making us all having to keep an eye on everything you do, becuase we might be next.

You might aswell be living in an old abandoned World War II FlaK Battery Bunker buried somewhere outside of Dover then, because the last place we'd invade would be the UK.

Spare me of the imagined scenarios that go with the thinking about my comment, because in truth, we'd have no reason to invade any other countries right now for simple reason it would not make sense. Do you think Bush will last? Do you think anyone has any real idea of what he's trying to do?

No. I don't even know, and most people alledge me to be a conservative. Sorry folks, I lost him in 2000, and have'nt been able to find him since.

But please don't try and excuse the "random invasions" on my shoulders -- I'm not the Commander in Chief.

American Women: "What are thoose white things in the fields?"
My Uncle: "Sheep"
AW "What do they do?"
MU "We make clothes out of there wool, and eat there meat."
AW "We get our meat from McDonalds."

As far as impressions go, you loose Solaris. But I suppose thats my reprisal for my asking you a question. Where even then, but then it also rebegs the answering of my question. If Americans are stupid, why not let them be ruled like lemmings?

Were not going to invade you.
And FYI I live in the UK.

K. I'll note that next time.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Man: Hey, Kerberos, someone took a photo that proves George Bush eats babies! It's disgusting!
Kerberos: Well, I don't think we know enough about it yet. Bush says it's essential to the running of the country that he does it, and he probably knows more about it than you or me, so we must reserve judgement until more information is available.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

If someone really famous ate babies, I'd probably follow suit, because it'd take some of the taboo off of it.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Man: Hey, Kerberos, someone took a photo that proves George Bush eats babies! It's disgusting!
Kerberos: Well, I don't think we know enough about it yet. Bush says it's essential to the running of the country that he does it, and he probably knows more about it than you or me, so we must reserve judgement until more information is available.

I figured that after awhile of debating with other forum members the only thing you could produce in this thread besides a well organized constructive post would be an assholish remark.

But I guess you have no shame in proving that this is the extent of your argueing abilities.

 

[CptStern]

pot meet kettle, kettle meet pot

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Oh! That means me and Sulkdodds are the same! We were both pwned.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Yes, I was quite overwhelmed and felt my only possible response was to be an arsehole.

Or, alternatively, I was simply illustrating the crazyness of what you're actually saying. Unless I'm reading you wrong:

What we know:
The US government is spying on 'hundreds, perhaps thousands' of people on a whim, without court warrants.
This means they could easily be spying on a whole lot more.
The US government has a quite nasty reputation for harming innocent people.
I believe that all of this violates some very basic rights of privacy, and that it could easily lead to persecution of innocent people.
My views are based on the past and the recent conduct of the US government, and on the tendency of human nature.

Your stance:
We don't know enough about it so you're going to trust the government.
The same government that blah blah blah go ask captain stern for overwhelming evidence that they're compulsive liars.


I can't really argue against that because all you're saying is 'well, I trust my government'. They've done something that many people might consider wrong, but you trust them.
I don't.

And sorry if this post sounds snappish, condescending or any other negative words ending in 'ish' or 'ing'. Because it's not meant to.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Yes, I was quite overwhelmed and felt my only possible response was to be an arsehole.

I figured you were. The first response is always the most honest.

The US government is spying on 'hundreds, perhaps thousands' of people on a whim, without court warrants.

And if those people were to know about warrants being issued for them, what would be their most likely response? To run, hide, or change something probably.

This means they could easily be spying on a whole lot more.

It means it, yes, but has it been proven? Nope. I won't get swept away by fear mongering.

The US government has a quite nasty reputation for harming innocent people.

Umm, no it does'nt. See Soviet Russia and its GuLAG camps. See NAZI Germany and their Death/Labour Camps. See the genocides caused in central Africa, and those wars led in the Middle-East against the Israelis.

As far as harming innocent people go, no, America is not at the top of the list. But I think what you mean is, bad reputation for casting random fingers of blame at random people who are'nt to blame anyway.

I believe that all of this violates some very basic rights of privacy, and that it could easily lead to persecution of innocent people.
My views are based on the past and the recent conduct of the US government, and on the tendency of human nature.

And my views are based on Optimism which are indeed no stronger then those opinions which you find yourself fostering in the fear of an Orwellian Prophecy.

Human Nature works both ways. Friends can stab you in the back.

We don't know enough about it so you're going to trust the government.

I'm saying we don't know enough about it to trust in your fear mongering. Thats all.

Wether you trust the government at all is up to you, and other people.

The same government that blah blah blah go ask captain stern for overwhelming evidence that they're compulsive liars.

No more so then other governments. You'd be lying to yourself if you think America's going to be the first, was the first, or is the last. I think your using America as a scapegoat.

I can't really argue against that because all you're saying is 'well, I trust my government'. They've done something that many people might consider wrong, but you trust them.

Whats wrong with spying on people who might host or give help to terrorists? I don't find a thing wrong with spying those people, or arresting them.

I don't.

Are'nt you trying to convince people to believe what you believe? Again, should'nt you let them decide whats right or wrong instead of dictate this to them?