Secret spying, the Constitution

[Sulkdodds]

I figured you were. The first response is always the most honest.

Okay. Who's being an arse here? It wasn't even my intention to be annoying with my original post so please, just stop being smug. :|

Second. Stop trying to paint me as some crazy 'fear-mongering' conspiracy theorist. I'm not 'in fear of an Orwellian Prophecy'. Nor am I 'using America as a scapegoat' - all the other governments which have been less than honest over the years aren't part of this dicussion as far as I'm aware, and the same is true of the nazis, the soviets, etc etc. We're talking about America, and the thread isn't called 'contrast and compare the US government with other administrations'. Plus, I'd quite like to know what you think I'm using the US as a scapegoat for.

You want 'fear mongering', try talking to kathaksung. Last time I checked, being concerned about the potential of a system to be abused by a government that (in my opinion :upstare: ) has a tendency to abuse systems is not merely groundless fear-mongering.

Whats wrong with spying on people who might host or give help to terrorists? I don't find a thing wrong with spying those people, or arresting them.

Yes, but as I've already said, I'm far more worried about people who aren't hosting or giving help to terrorists. And I do find something wrong with spying on those people and with arresting them.

Here are some people currently being ****ed over by the US government on little or no evidence.
Link.
I don't feel it's a good idea to trust the US government when it comes to judging who and who isn't a terrorist.

Are'nt you trying to convince people to believe what you believe? Again, should'nt you let them decide whats right or wrong instead of dictate this to them?

I guess I am. Wait, hang on. That's half the point of this forum.

In conclusion: I'm not a bloody paranoid but I do think that quite apart from the moral implications of un-warranted spying, there is real danger that innocent people could suffer.

 

[CptStern]

Oh! That means me and Sulkdodds are the same! We were both pwned.

how does everything I say go right above your head?


you said:

"I figured that after awhile of debating with other forum members the only thing you could produce in this thread besides a well organized constructive post would be an assholish remark.

But I guess you have no shame in proving that this is the extent of your argueing abilities."



must I bring up the catch-22 thing again? or how you said I hate jews?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

or how you said I hate jews?

I think that works against you more then it works against me and Rakurai.

Whatever floats your boat Stern. We caught you, and you won't accept it. Besides, was'nt that in another thread? How does that offer any constructive debate in a thread like this?

Okay. Who's being an arse here? It wasn't even my intention to be annoying with my original post so please, just stop being smug.

Hey, you were the arse and smug person first. Don't get mad because I return the favor. We could call it even and stop. I'll honor you if you honor me. Peace treaty?

Second. Stop trying to paint me as some crazy 'fear-mongering' conspiracy theorist.

Your not a crazy 'fear-mongering' conspiracy theorist, what I'am saying is however we don't need to leech off of other people's fears and build them to what they're not because that amounts to mass hysteria.

What you believe is valid, innocent people being persecuted. I agree with that. Know that I do, but also know that I'm saying we don't know too much about the extent of this spying, and alls I'm doing is trying to be optimistic about it.

I chose my response, you chose yours, if anymore is revealed will find out whose wrong and whose right.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Seeing as I didn't mean to be an arse, and I don't think I even came off as one, and I have no idea how it was 'smug'...yeah, okay. No more of it in any case.

You did directly say that I was 'in fear of an Orwellian prophecy' - but I guess, in a sense, I am - not least because that's the way my own government is currently moving. Say what you like, a 1984-style surveillance society is every government's guilty wet dream. I also think spying on people without some kind of authorisation is just wrong, exactly like holding people without a charge is wrong. It might not make any difference if you look at it a certain way - they're still being spied on/they're still in prison - but it's a fundamental thing, the whole point of which is to stop abuse. When it's the NSA doing it, I think there's cause for concern.

Think what you want, but based on the evidence of the last fifty years and the last five in particular, I'd say there's far more reason to be pessimistic than optimistic.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Think what you want, but based on the evidence of the last fifty years and the last five in particular, I'd say there's far more reason to be pessimistic than optimistic.

True. Perhaps I forgot that Optimism is a blind hope in things. I'll watch your opinions more closely from now on.

 

[CptStern]

I dont know how I missed this post:

I think that works against you more then it works against me and Rakurai.

Whatever floats your boat Stern. We caught you, and you won't accept it. Besides, was'nt that in another thread? How does that offer any constructive debate in a thread like this?

point out right now how/where I'm being anti-semetic ..you pulled that out of the thin air. you have no idea how palpably absurd that is

but please try your best at proving it, I can use a good laugh

 

[Solaris]

I dont know how I missed this post:



point out right now how/where I'm being anti-semetic ..you pulled that out of the thin air. you have no idea how palpably absurd that is

but please try your best at proving it, I can use a good laugh

Sure, but can you devulge itno het deepness of yourself and prove to me how your r not anty semtic? Becuase you said so your self the yungest lama is the fastest.

/Kereberos

 

[Angry Lawyer]

There's Het deepness?

*Spreads more pro-Hetairia propaganda*

-Angry Lawyer

 

[CptStern]

I had to look twice at your avatar so as to not confuse you for kerberos solaris

oh and there is ineed deepness to Het ...once I find it I'll let you know

 

[K e r b e r o s]

point out right now how/where I'm being anti-semetic ..you pulled that out of the thin air. you have no idea how palpably absurd that is

First, lets see if you deleted it:

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101430&page=5

Nope, still there!

Post #168, in the middle of thread, (One Thousand a month tortured to death in Iraq) on page 5, you posted the following:

oh it's the jewish virtual library, that bastion of reliable reporting

You were being a racist indeed, even Raziaar thought it odd.

Sure, but can you devulge itno het deepness of yourself and prove to me how your r not anty semtic? Becuase you said so your self the yungest lama is the fastest.

/Kereberos

That was a cheap shot. I totally missed it ... until now.

 

[CptStern]

First, lets see if you deleted it:

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101430&page=5

Nope, still there!

Post #168, in the middle of thread, (One Thousand a month tortured to death in Iraq) on page 5, you posted the following:

you must be out of your freakin mind ..HOW can you possibly misinterpret that to mean I hate jews ...btw did you know my sister and law and a former girlfriend of mine is jewish. ..probably why I get so pissed off when you said I hate jews ... ...I must remind myself to tell them I hate them next time I see them :upstare:


that's really a stretch kerberos

You were being a racist indeed, even Raziaar thought it odd.

raziaar is quick to jump on anything that makes me look bad

 

[Sulkdodds]

I thought Stern was claiming that in an issue such as that, the Jewish Virtual Library (which I've never heard of, so for all I know it could in fact be a very unreliable source indeed regardless of Jewish-ness) might have just a teeny bit of bias.

In fact, he didn't even claim that its unreliability had anything to do with its being Jewish.

At worst, he said that the Jewish National Library was shit. I didn't see him say 'oh well it's Jewish, and we all know about the Jews' or 'Jews suck lol'.

 

[CptStern]

jeez sulky you make it sound so easy ..I wonder why the wonder twins didnt catch on to that ...Can I hire you to be spokesperson?

"please forward all concerns/questions to the honourable Mr Dodds, he'll be more than happy to address each and every one of you, now if you'll excuse me there's right wing conspiracy to be exposed, justice never sleeps ..to the Stern Mobile!"

 

[K e r b e r o s]

you must be out of your freakin mind ..HOW can you possibly misinterpret that to mean I hate jews

I think you and Sulkdodds are forgetting how you said it. Allow me to put the emphasis on, "oh it's the jewish virtual library, that bastion of reliable reporting ".

Whats your problem with it being a jewish virtual library anyway? You nethire commented on it being unreliable, but based your criteria on the fact it was biased simply because it was Jewish.

Care to explain that?

that's really a stretch kerberos

A stretch but it works. You can't refute it. :thumbs:

raziaar is quick to jump on anything that makes me look bad

Don't assume me to be so gullible, he's also quick to be friends with you. A usefull ally is one that stays close to your enemy.

At worst, he said that the Jewish National Library was shit. I didn't see him say 'oh well it's Jewish, and we all know about the Jews' or 'Jews suck lol'.

The problem here is he never said why it was shit. So, CptStern, why is it ... shit?

 

[Sulkdodds]

Thing is, even if he thinks it's biased simply because it's Jewish, there are reasons for that...

Isreal = Jews. Palestine = Muslims. Therefore, Jewish OR Muslim sources may contain bias. Most Muslims I know support Palestine very strongly, to the point where I wouldn't trust their opinion on the matter. I can't say I know many Jews (and if I do, I either don't know it, or they aren't very obvious about it), but from what I've seen people say on here it appears the bias is on both sides. Now I'm not saying Stern's right in being so quick to dismiss the source. But it doesn't come anywhere near anti-semitism.

The Jewish Virtual Library is a project of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE) a nonprofit 501(c)(3), nonpartisan organization established "to strengthen the U.S.-Israel relationship by emphasizing the fundamentals of the alliance." The Executive Director is Mitchell G. Bard.

So there IS a possibility of bias.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Thing is, even if he thinks it's biased simply because it's Jewish, there are reasons for that...

Isreal = Jews. Palestine = Muslims.

Well, no there's not. Thats like excusing a neo-nazi for being racist because he believes in a Jewish Conspiracy, or that his African American neighbors are stealing stuff out of his unlocked Garage simply because their black.

Its superstition.

Therefore, Jewish OR Muslim sources may contain bias. Most Muslims I know support Palestine very strongly, to the point where I wouldn't trust their opinion on the matter. I can't say I know many Jews (and if I do, I either don't know it, or they aren't very obvious about it), but from what I've seen people say on here it appears the bias is on both sides.

Actually, what you've just shown me is an example were bias does not exist on behalf of the Jews. I'll bet you some of your friends are Jewish, but its something they won't admit.

Suffice to say, if thats not the case, I've had Jewish friends in past from Colorado who rarely mention anything about the war in Palestine. Infact, they're too busy talking about their Chow-Wolf mix puppy.

Now I'm not saying Stern's right in being so quick to dismiss the source. But it doesn't come anywhere near anti-semitism.

He's dismissing it because its jewish. He even said it himself.

So there IS a possibility of bias.

Bias exists in everything -- even your bias is evident. Are you aware what it is?

 

[CptStern]

I think you and Sulkdodds are forgetting how you said it. Allow me to put the emphasis on, "oh it's the jewish virtual library, that bastion of reliable reporting ".

funny how you seem to think that I emphasized the word jewish when any idiot can see I did no such thing ..you added the italics I didnt, you added the inflection to that word I didnt. Stop being a tool, you have no idea what goes on in my head you cant possibly know what I intended

Whats your problem with it being a jewish virtual library anyway? You nethire commented on it being unreliable, but based your criteria on the fact it was biased simply because it was Jewish.

Care to explain that?

here we go again ...sigh ..I'd use handsignals, smoke signals freakin picture cards if I it meant you understood when I said IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT IT"S JEWISH ..stop putting words in my mouth kerberos it just makes you look like a raving lunatic ..which I'm really starting to believe is true

A stretch but it works. You can't refute it. :thumbs:

idiot, you couldnt prove it if your life depended on it

Don't assume me to be so gullible, he's also quick to be friends with you. A usefull ally is one that stays close to your enemy.

ya that must be it ...I'm using raziaar to be close to my enemies ...you're seriously deluded ..what the hell happened? did you miss your medication today? the paranoid psychosis is starting to show

The problem here is he never said why it was shit. So, CptStern, why is it ... shit?

holy **** can you truely be that thick headed? I use declassified government docuemnts and you give me sources that could have written by pretty much anyone and I'm supposed to take them at face value? why do you even come to the politics forum, you havent the foggiest idea of how to effectively debate someone ..we just wasted ANOTHER 2 pages talking about this stupid subject ...what a ****ing waste of time and effort you are

 

[Sulkdodds]

Well, no there's not. Thats like excusing a neo-nazi for being racist because he believes in a Jewish Conspiracy, or that his African American neighbors are stealing stuff out of his unlocked Garage simply because their black.

Not really. As far as I can see, it's closer to not trusting the Palestinian-Iranian Virtual Library on the subject.
He also hasn't said that he doesn't trust it because it was Jewish.
Maybe he doesn't trust it because it's been set up by Israelis, who are obviously going to support Israel, and by Americans, who generally support Israel - because, funnily enough, of their large Jewish population.

PLEASE NOTE: I don't know how biased the JNL might happen to be, but it's clear that there is a possibility of bias so you can't possibly claim that CptStern is racist based on just one throwaway remark about something he may indeed know more than you do about. Find like 50 posts which hint that he hates Jews and you'll have a case. As it is, you're really obviously just trying to make him look bad, jumping on anything that you think you can use to 'expose' his obvious EVIL.

And all of this is assuming that he distrusts it merely because it's Jewish. Which he hasn't confirmed.
He hasn't even confirmed that he distrusts it merely because it's Israeli (which would be a completely different thing anyway).

 

[15357]

I <3 this thread.

 

[Solaris]

Oh this is great.

If you can add italics to peoples posts you can prove anything.

So if I say

3 Tall Black men shot someone yesterday.

You could rephrase it as

3 Tall Black men shot someone yesterday.

OMG JUST BECUASE THERE BLACK YOU RACIST DRAWING ATTENTION TO THERE COLOUR!!!

Which I wasn't I was just narrowing the perpertrators down to 10% of the population, but in Italics it would look a bit racist.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

funny how you seem to think that I emphasized the word jewish when any idiot can see I did no such thing

Edited for spelling corrections:
Why even comment on it like you did, then? Oh its a "jewish" media library. Pah. Why even point out the fact it's Jewish? Is that what makes it wrong, because its Jewish? You still have not told us your, [ahem* if they're ever was one], real reason for not trusting that source.

I debunked Sulkdodds arguement so now I want you to answer. What do you have against it?

here we go again ...sigh ..I'd use handsignals, smoke signals freakin picture cards

Yea, you'd use anything if it distracts you from the responsibility of answering my questions. I'm not suprised, and a few of us who happen to be PM'ing each other like secret lovers, are beginning to think your slightly anti-semitic.

idiot, you couldnt prove it if your life depended on it

You proved it for me. :thumbs: You said what you said, and you can take that back now. The edit button dissappears after a short time, so even you can't edit out 'Jewish' out of your statement. You ment to say it was biased because it was Jewish. Raziaar get its ... why can't you? So does Rakurai.

Not really. As far as I can see, it's closer to not trusting the Palestinian-Iranian Virtual Library on the subject.

No offense, but if something like that was posted, I would'nt have even made a comment like CptSterns. Infact, anything he posts I look at, and I look at it without bias because the way I see things, I benefit from a little extra knowledge. Its counter productive just to wash things away simply because it does'nt meet your agenda.

Oh, and Stern's afraid of answering this question:

To CptStern: Are you an anti-semitic? If you are'nt, then why did you comment on it being a jewish media library? Is that the only problem you have with it, or are they're others?

If you can add italics to peoples posts you can prove anything.

This is just an arguement of deceit and the preying upon gullible and open minded forum members. I'm gullible, and I've be tricked one too many times by CptStern. Well, he tricked himself this time.

He still has'nt answered my question, and Herr Stern, you can find in the middle of my post of replies herein. But, just to be extra careful you don't dodge it, answer the following:

Do you hate jews? In the case that you don't, do you hate their media libraries then, and is it because their Jewish or Biased? Sulkdodds went the extra length of providing something almost substantial.

But this is'int about bias or sandbagging our e-friends CptStern. This is about my question, I suggest you answer this so we could end this whole thing.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I debunked Sulkdodds arguement

No, you didn't. All you've done is (apparently) claim that there's no reason to distrust an Israeli-American resource on the Middle East. Do you not think there might be a teeny tiny problem there? Having now read the source myself, I can't say it appears anywhere near neutral to me.

Correct: it is counter-productive to ignore any sources.
Counter-productive != racist.
Furthermore, claiming the source is unreliable does not equate to ignoring it, and in a debate your argument can stand on fall on the reliability of your sources. Especially when you're trying to prove something.

Person One: "I have statistics proving that North Korea is bad."
Person Two: "Bullshit. This article from www.site-set-up-by-north-koreans.com tells me North Korea is great."
Person One: "That's a biased source. It doesn't prove anything."
Person Two: "Racist."

But if you want to believe CptStern's a racist, go ahead. You're wrong, but go ahead. You two will just end up solving it in your time honored way, with the flaming and the sniping and the sticking-fingers-in-ears-ing, so maybe I should just let you get on with it, because you're not going to stop telling CptStern he's a racist no matter what anyone says, are you?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Okay right, I debunked it. I debunked your statement by proving that granted, it might be biased, but so is everything else in the world. Not the biggest debunk, and by far, not one that will last long to be sure. (my guess is after one post it will expire).

My own Personal aside: We can't exactly say that this thing in question is strictly biased, or biased because of its links to America, or heck as Stern implied, biased because its jewish!

I just want Stern to answer my question. Everyone besides him has done a fine job of argueing and proving their points here, and everyone has done a superb job of answering questions to the best of their efforts.

Stern however, has'nt answered enough of mine, or, instead of all them just this one:

"Stern, is it biased to you because its Jewish, or is it biased for another reason?"

 

[CptStern]

**** nothing short of a quick kick to the temple will change your mind will it? ffs do I have to mention again that I have family members that are jewish, that I had a girlfriend who was jewish (we debated the occupation endlessly and not once did she ever call me anti-semetic)

I really dont have to justify myself to a half-wit such as yourself ..you believe what you want to believe ..frankly I dont care as your opinion means nothing to me

I'm starting to believe you make a point of making an ass of yourself

 

[KagePrototype]

Stern doesn't hate jews, get back on topic.

 

[kathaksung]

371. The revenge of D.O.J. (1/7/06)

Bush is only a puppet. When his illegal activity was revealed, his master jumped out to protect. Instead of investigating Bush's unconstitutional action, Justice Department starts to probe the leak of spying program.

It seems they assume nobody knows that US government is eavesdropping on its citizens. As a matter of fact, it's a common sense that FBI and other intelligence are spying on us in a broad range. We know there are Carnivore, Echelon..... There are so many information about secret eavesdropping. Have you ever seen the investigation from D.O.J.? The money spent on secret spying is huge. Are these enormous organization only deal with a few Al Qaide? It's a joke to think that Al Qaida won't alert that they may under surveillance if they communicate with an electronic system. Even innocent Muslim and non Muslim Americans would think their communication be intercepted by big brother.

What the leak of spying program will hurt? It only proves the long existing suspicion of secret spying is true. That Bush did something illegal.(unconstitutional).

The following is an information known by public. The time is Jan. 1st 2001. Such kind of knowledge was common sense. Similar information were popular in internet then. But it didn't point to Bush and D.O.J.. So nothing happened. Now D.O.J. jump their feet on the leak of "secret spying". Is that funny?

Re: SPYING ON US
BY JIM WILSON
Illustration by Paul DiMare
Published on: January 1, 2001

The secret is out. Two powerful intelligence gathering tools that the United States created to eavesdrop on Soviet leaders and to track KGB spies are now being used to monitor Americans. One system, known as Echelon, intercepts and analyzes telephone calls, faxes and e-mail sent to and from the United States. The other system, Tempest, can secretly read the displays on personal computers, cash registers and automatic teller machines, from as far as a half mile away. Although the inner workings of both systems remain classified, fueling exaggerated claims about their capabilities on Internet sites, credible detail has at last begun to emerge. It comes chiefly from foreign governments that began investigating American surveillance activities after discovering that the Echelon system had been used to spy on their defense contractors. From those documents it is possible to obtain the first accurate view of the threats high-tech spying poses to our right to privacy. We think you will agree it also creates a real and present threat to our freedom.

http://popularmechanics.com/science/military/2001/1/spying_on_us/

 

[CptStern]

hah! gotta love kathkasung ..in the middle of a debate on whether or not I'm anti-semitic he posts another conspiracy tirade ..gotta love his singlemindedness :cheers:

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Stern doesn't hate jews

If six or seven other people believe so, then its their opinions, and we're not changing are tune and nethire is Stern.

get back on topic.

Thats why I did'nt reply to CptStern.

his master jumped out to protect. Instead of investigating Bush's unconstitutional action, Justice Department starts to probe the leak of spying program.

Thats a good source.

The secret is out. Two powerful intelligence gathering tools that the United States created to eavesdrop on Soviet leaders and to track KGB spies are now being used to monitor Americans. One system, known as Echelon, intercepts and analyzes telephone calls, faxes and e-mail sent to and from the United States. The other system, Tempest, can secretly read the displays on personal computers, cash registers and automatic teller machines, from as far as a half mile away. Although the inner workings of both systems remain classified, fueling exaggerated claims about their capabilities on Internet sites, credible detail has at last begun to emerge. It comes chiefly from foreign governments that began investigating American surveillance activities after discovering that the Echelon system had been used to spy on their defense contractors. From those documents it is possible to obtain the first accurate view of the threats high-tech spying poses to our right to privacy. We think you will agree it also creates a real and present threat to our freedom.

I kind of agree with this statement, although, if we could find out the effectiveness and the actual ability of Echelon and Tempest, then perhaps I might be little more or a little less alarmed. What the source provided is'int what I was looking for, I want to know who they spy on first, and last. How can they do it all?

Is it a computer system, or?

We need more information. And I'm worried I'm asking too many questions. >sigh<

 

[CptStern]

let those six or seven people speak for themselves ..I demand to face my accusers


but then I would be lying in that it would mean I actually gave a shit what a handful of mental midgets say about me


tralalalala

 

[K e r b e r o s]

[Moderator Military Police thwap Stern and Kerberos]

C'mon Stern! Lets out of here! They won't let us smack each other around with our e-penis's!

 

[CptStern]

you'd lose ...repeatedly

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Pah! Whats your size? It is'int the size, its the works! I put a scope on mine ... I could 'shoot' you from a mile away. Ever play me on Flash as a Sniper in DoD? mwahahahaha ... k I'll get back on topic.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Such perfect timing by K-sung there.

"Get back on topic."
And bing, there he is.

 

[jondy]

Such perfect timing by K-sung there.

"Get back on topic."
And bing, there he is.

Kathaksung doesn't sleep, he waits.

 

[kathaksung]

379. A crime in the name of a noble cause (1/27/06)

Bush stole breads from the grocery store. When the store owner accused him of stealing, he defends that he is to save the lives of hungry people. What he hasn't told you is that he could have done it legally: he could buy the bread instead of stealing.

Bush administration repeatedly argued that he did it under a noble cause: to save the lives of American people. He avoids to tell you that this noble cause can be done in recent system: he could have applied for a court warrant.

A theft is a theft. It won't be legalized under a noble cause. Bush blows trumpet these days to persuade people that he has the right to spy on them. How can a thief so confident for the crime he committed?

1. His master D.O.J. assured him he will be supported by Supreme Court. After Alito being sent to the Supreme Court, D.O.J. totally control it. Alito's nomination will shift the court to the right. For the real Democrats, they should fight for their idea with filibuster. D.O.J. apparently will have their agent jumping out to perpetrate, despite that will tear off their agents' fake mask. For Republicans, Alito is also a threat to their opinion. Alito favors a powerful administration. That's against GOP's opinion of a small government. Many Republicans also don't think the President is above the law. Now review message "373. Extortion by scandal". How correct I point out the Abramoff scandal is targeting at GOP politicians to force them escorting Alito to the seat of the Supreme Court judge.

2. Intelligence support. On time, there will be a "terrorist attack" to justify Bush's spying program. The CIA's Pakistan air raid, Bin Laden's and his vice's tape is a prelude of this plot.

3. Media support. Today, Mercury News reported: "53% approved of eavesdropping without warrants "to reduce the threat of terrorism.(New York Times/CBS News poll of 1,229 adults Friday through Wednesday)". I have said that media is controlled by the Inside group. They used to manipulate public's mind by faking poll to justify a rigged election or other plot.

Is US still a home of braves and the land of free as media always say? Or brave Americans become cowards who give up their freedom to the intimidation of terrorists (or more likely, the Bush administration in the fake mask of terrorist)?

 

[>>FrEnZy<<]

kathaksung rules!

 

[15357]

1. Why the ingratitude toward the goverment?

2. It's a pity that there are too few examples in our lives that show what will happen without goverment.

3. A man and a dog has one difference: a dog will stay loyal when you take him from the streets and make him prosperous.

4. Let us not forget that while we have the god-given right to kick the goverment around, the goverment has the military-given right to kick you around. And lets face it. The military is way closer to you than god.

5. AHAFafadgsa.

6. Exit Rant. End.

 

[kathaksung]

This article wrote about 5 months ago.

335. 4th Amendment (8/17/05)

These days, Feds activate a wave in Internet to propaganda on "eliminate the wall erected to prevent the sharing information from foreign with domestic criminal law enforcement." Said the wall caused the success of 911 attack. It's an attack at the Constitution - the 4th amendment.

Several times Feds had set up traps in my case. One was to change the roof of my house. The other one was to change the garage door. I alleged Feds had planted drugs in my attic and in my garage. They planned to carry out a search and arrest by guise as the roofing or the garage door contractor.

Why couldn't they direct search and arrest? Fourth amendment forbid them to do so. They couldn't apply a search warrant on suspicion. They must have evidence. But I am an innocent man, they have no evidence. What they can do is plant. But for that plant they still need a reason to apply for a search warrant.

Because it's easy for them to get the foreign collaboration to get a "useful" information. Then to get a FISA warrant which is easy to get. An unreasonable search and arrest could be done if the "information sharing" is allowed.

If the wall was broken, every citizen will lose the protection of the 4th amendment from unreasonable search and arrest. Everyone can be the victim of Feds' planting.

Here I repeat the message I posted before. D.O.J. is desperately to attack that protect wall.

Re post: Ashcroft had accused, and now it's his accessories are accusing Jamie Gorelick erected the "wall" between the FBI and the CIA that kept them from sharing intelligence and possibly from doing more to prevent the 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. That because FBI feared to touch that wall, they hadn't applied a permission to search suspect Zacarias Moussaoui's computer, so they lost chance to stop the 911 attack in advance.

This is a blackmail.

There are two ways for FBI to apply a search warranty from Judge. One is by FISA court.(Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act) In which a warranty is in a very low standard and is easy to get. The other way is by criminal law court which is in high standard because Americans are protected by 4th amendment from unreasonable search and arrest.

When Ashcroft and FBI said there is a wall to block sharing information between foreign information and criminal investigation, he is demanding a big police power expanding which makes the 4th amendment mean nothing. He then can search and arrest American citizen at his will, only based on suspicion(FISA standard is low) while we should be protected by criminal law from being unreasonable search and arrest. (must based on evidence)

D.O.J. use Moussaoui's case as a reason, said because the FBI feared to touch the wall of criminal law so they didn't investigate Moussaoui's computer. It's hypocrite and is a misleading. We don't have to be a professional like A.G. or FBI to know that Moussaoui is a foreigner and fits for FISA. Why FBI hadn't apply FISA(obviously an easy one) but considered the domestic criminal law? And why they even didn't apply? It is incompetence, a mistake, or a deliberate negligence? Many information revealed that the government knew 911 attack in advance, it was allowed to happen. Because they benefit from it.

FBI didn't apply a warrant from FISA, they say because they are afraid to touch that wall. A man caught driving without a license. He said because he was afraid he won't pass the road test so he hadn't apply one. Could a judge justify that reason? As a matter of fact, the FISA standard is very low, if FBI had applied one, they for sure would get it. But they hadn't.

What D.O.J. wants is to give FBI more police power to search and arrest people. They want to low the standard of criminal law. That's a blackmail in the name of "war on terrorism".

BTW, there is a deep meaning of "erect the wall of sharing information" . In fact, intelligence share the information already. The reality is they can't use that information to apply a search warrant because it's illegal. The wall prevent they use FISA standard on domestic criminal case.

Theoretically, FBI can't spy a citizen unless they have evidence the man has committed crime. When this "sharing information wall" is broken, now they can search a citizen covertly only on suspicion. Because the FISA standard is low.

This is the real purpose of D.O.J.. And it claimed the"Patriot Act" gave it such privilege.
The fact is, under the "Patriot Act", Bush and D.O.J. expand their fascist police power. American people are losing the protect from "unreasonable search and arrest" of the 4th amendment.

Government and media never tell people about this. They steal the civil liberty in the name of security. You are losing your constitutional right.

 

[Glirk Dient]

So by searching peoples bags in crowded and high risk areas Bush is a fascist? IDK about you but I feel better when I see bags being checked.

Also you have nothing to worry about with them spying on you. First they need suspicion and second you have no need to worry unless you are guilty of something.

I figure its OK for them to do this since it doesn't get in anyones way and will stop the terrorists/criminals/whoever from planning something big and getting through loopholes in the law to keep themselves going until whatever it is they are doing is done.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

KATHKASUNG, THE FEDS JUST CALLED ME.
They said your refridgerator is running.
Is this true?