Secularism in Turkey

[repiV]

Apparently, the Islamic headscarf is a hugely divisive issue in Turkey - a Muslim country.
We're not even talking veils here, just headscarfs. So why exactly is Islamic influence more tolerated in Britain than in Turkey?

Utterly insane.

Clicky

 

[ComradeBadger]

Perhaps because the veil/headscarf is seen as a sign of fundamentalist Islam in Turkey - a sign of political Islam, something percieved as a threat to government.

That is not the case here, allowing Muslim women to dress as they please is simply toleration of other cultures.

 

[Cormeh]

So why exactly is Islamic influence more tolerated in Britain than in Turkey?[/URL]

Turkey doesn't have this:

http://www.johnantell.co.uk/RRA1976.htm

But in all fairness, isn't this just a difference on what the scarf represents? I'm not sure, I'm not too clued up on religion.

EDIT: Been explained.

 

[repiV]

Perhaps because the veil/headscarf is seen as a sign of fundamentalist Islam in Turkey - a sign of political Islam, something percieved as a threat to government.

That is not the case here, allowing Muslim women to dress as they please is simply toleration of other cultures.

That's exactly the point - it is a sign of fundamentalism and political Islam. The sooner people realise that, the better.
No other religion on Earth (no major religion at least) proscribes a uniform for its followers - except Sikhism, but in my entire life I've never seen anyone wear it. I see many people wearing Muslim dress every single day.

Cormeh, I don't want to open an unknown link at work. I'll read it later.

 

[ComradeBadger]

It's a link to the Race Relations Act.

However political religious fundamentalism in Turkey is a rather large issue - represented by a major political party. This is not the case in Britain.

 

[repiV]

If things don't change (fortunately, it seems they are changing - slowly), it will be represented by a major political party here sooner or later.
The Race Relations Act has nothing to do with and makes no mention of religion.

 

[bigburpco]

Perhaps because the veil/headscarf is seen as a sign of fundamentalist Islam in Turkey - a sign of political Islam, something percieved as a threat to government.

That is not the case here, allowing Muslim women to dress as they please is simply toleration of other cultures.

The British are being nice. That's basically it.

 

[repiV]

Too nice.

 

[Ome_Vince]

In Holland, former-liberal capitol of the world, they're debating following the French in banning religious stuff like that (i think its called burk).
I dont think scarfs or any clothing suits integration very well, as imo its just another label in which people will generate "groups"/isolate.
Think about it, if you walk into a cafe and start talking to any person from any color, you would have no idea what his/her religion is (and wouldn't care), and it wouldn't stand in your way.
This changes when you see that person wearing religious clothing like the Jews wear that cap, (as do Muslim men wear something a bit similar), and Muslim women wear the burk.
It immediately changes your approach, and whether you like it or not, prejudice (positive or negative doesn't matter), subconsciously slips in, => its human nature.
It even happens way back in high school, the ones with a big nose, glasses, or being fat get picked out because they're different.
With religion similar things happen, though in many cases that causes the people of that religion to bundle and isolate which is very dangerous imo.
Thats exactly what made the Jewish people a target, and its exactly what will make the Muslims a target now.

 

[CptStern]

Apparently, the Islamic headscarf is a hugely divisive issue in Turkey - a Muslim country.
We're not even talking veils here, just headscarfs. So why exactly is Islamic influence more tolerated in Britain than in Turkey?

Utterly insane.

Clicky

are there no Hasidic jews in britain? what about menonites? latter day saints? Sikhs?

or does your intolerance only apply to muslims?

 

[repiV]

are there no Hasidic jews in britain? what about menonites? latter day saints? Sikhs?

or does your intolerance only apply to muslims?

No, no, and no, to the first three. As I already stated, I've never seen a Sikh wearing the 5 K's. Ever.
Besides which, again you manage to spectacularly miss the whole point. Jews, Sikhs and the Amish do not cause any problems whatsoever. The Jewish in particular are the shining light of civilisation, not the cesspool of it. Muslims do cause problems. Lots of them.
Hell, just the other day they sentenced a Muslim convert who was planning to carry out the most devastating terrorist attack ever on British soil to 40 years.
The peaceful religion strikes again.

 

[CptStern]

No, no, and no, to the first three. As I already stated, I've never seen a Sikh wearing the 5 K's. Ever.

and just because you havent seen them doesnt mean they dont exist in your part of the world ..why is the headscarf any different from what the other religions impose as a dress code? ....or is this another thread about your intolerence of muslims rather than about headscarves

Besides which, again you manage to spectacularly miss the whole point. Jews, Sikhs and the Amish do not cause any problems whatsoever.

so it's not about the headscarves?

The Jewish in particular are the shining light of civilisation, not the cesspool of it. Muslims do cause problems. Lots of them.
Hell, just the other day they sentenced a Muslim convert who was planning to carry out the most devastating terrorist attack ever on British soil to 40 years.

The peaceful religion strikes again.

yes because if that one person is a barbaric savage all muslims are barbaric savages :upstare: slippery slope logical fallacy hysterical fearmongering nonsense


this did make me lol:

jewish in particular are the shining light of civilisation

teh chosen peeples are better than us all ...you're insane :rolling:

 

[Barney_Calhoun]

Islamic fundementalism in Europe isn't the problem, it's merely a symptom of it.

 

[Solaris]

Apparently, the Islamic headscarf is a hugely divisive issue in Turkey - a Muslim country.
We're not even talking veils here, just headscarfs. So why exactly is Islamic influence more tolerated in Britain than in Turkey?

Utterly insane.

Clicky

See, this is where you are wrong:

" So why exactly is Islamic influence more tolerated in Britain than in Turkey?"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying the reason Headscalfs are not illegal here is becuase of Muslim influence? You don't think that perphaps it's from the influence of thoose who would wish to seek that all people in England can choose what to wear, as a basic human right?

You said a similar thing a while ago that was similar, something like: 'the fact that no newpaper printed the Muslim cartoons shows just how much influence the Muslims have over here'. Don't you think it might be that over here we have respect for people, and will not print pictures that so many people found so offensive?

Neither issue has anything to do with the influence the Muslims have over us, instead they are two examples of common decency and respect for other people.

I originally thought you were an ignorant racist, but seeing the rest of your posts, your not all that idiotic. Your views are disagree with, quite strongly, but you seem like a reasonably sensible person.

 

[repiV]

and just because you havent seen them doesnt mean they dont exist in your part of the world

Oh, so maybe there's a single eccentric Sikh in London who wears the 5 Ks, along with a monocle and bowtie. Who cares?

..why is the headscarf any different from what the other religions impose as a dress code? ....or is this another thread about your intolerence of muslims rather than about headscarves

I'm not merely talking about the headscarf, I'm talking about the whole-body-uniform.

so it's not about the headscarves?

It's about what that headscarf represents.

yes because if that one person is a barbaric savage all muslims are barbaric savages :upstare: slippery slope logical fallacy hysterical fearmongering nonsense

Did I say that?

this did make me lol:



teh chosen peeples are better than us all ...you're insane :rolling:

Six times more Jews have a 140+ IQ than any other race. They have made immense contributions to the world in terms of science, medicine, philosophy, economics...yeah, I'd say they're pretty worthy.
Meanwhile, Islam has been nothing but the enemy of real civilisation.

 

[repiV]

See, this is where you are wrong:

" So why exactly is Islamic influence more tolerated in Britain than in Turkey?"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying the reason Headscalfs are not illegal here is becuase of Muslim influence? You don't think that perphaps it's from the influence of thoose who would wish to seek that all people in England can choose what to wear, as a basic human right?

The headscarf (but more importantly, the veil) is the Muslim influence. If simply the headscarf is such a divisive issue in the former Ottoman empire of all places, how do you think they feel about the veil?

You said a similar thing a while ago that was similar, something like: 'the fact that no newpaper printed the Muslim cartoons shows just how much influence the Muslims have over here'. Don't you think it might be that over here we have respect for people, and will not print pictures that so many people found so offensive?

That's a laughable, naive and ridiculous conclusion.

Neither issue has anything to do with the influence the Muslims have over us, instead they are two examples of common decency and respect for other people.

I originally thought you were an ignorant racist, but seeing the rest of your posts, your not all that idiotic. Your views are disagree with, quite strongly, but you seem like a reasonably sensible person.

Yes, I have the sense to see that being tolerant should stop at tolerating intolerance.

In the space of less than two years, Islam turned a good friend of mine from a friendly, funny, fairly noble person who was a lot more English than myself (born in Iraq, moved here when he was five) into a passive enemy of Western civilisation who constantly plays up his Iraqi identity and associates himself with a terrorist faction.
But remember kids, Islam is just like any other religion.

 

[Solaris]

The headscarf (but more importantly, the veil) is the Muslim influence. If simply the headscarf is such a divisive issue in the former Ottoman empire of all places, how do you think they feel about the veil?

You haven't combatted my point. What they feel about the veil is irrelavant. It's why they are allowed to wear the headscarf/veil in England I am trying to debate, you said it is becuase of Muslim influence. Are you saying that if it Muslims were not hear, headscarves would be illegal and people who not be allowed to choose what they wear?

That's a laughable, naive and ridiculous conclusion.

As you would have said had I said that:
"Meaningless retohric"
"Nice Dodge"
"Irrellavant"

Yes, I have the sense to see that being tolerant should stop at tolerating intolerance.

So you think it is intollerent of people if they wish to wear a veal, or are offended by cartoon designed to do exactly that?

In the space of less than two years, Islam turned a good friend of mine from a friendly, funny, fairly noble person who was a lot more English than myself (born in Iraq, moved here when he was five) into a passive enemy of Western civilisation who constantly plays up his Iraqi identity and associates himself with a terrorist faction.
But remember kids, Islam is just like any other religion.

An interesting glimpse into the reasoning behind you views perphaps? What terrorist organisation does he associate with? Were I him, I'd feel the same. Imagine going back to Iraq to see what Britian had done to your familly, your country and your people.

 

[repiV]

You haven't combatted my point. What they feel about the veil is irrelavant. It's why they are allowed to wear the headscarf/veil in England I am trying to debate, you said it is becuase of Muslim influence. Are you saying that if it Muslims were not hear, headscarves would be illegal and people who not be allowed to choose what they wear?

No, I said we tolerate the Muslim influence (the veil etc.) more than Turkey does. You misunderstood.

As you would have said had I said that:
"Meaningless retohric"
"Nice Dodge"
"Irrellavant"

I don't feel like doing research to show you how wrong you are when it shouldn't even be necessary.

So you think it is intollerent of people if they wish to wear a veal, or are offended by cartoon designed to do exactly that?

No, I think Islam is intolerant. And it is the supposed champions of tolerance, liberals, that are always the first to defend Islam. Hell, people like you defend Islam more vigorously than many of the more level-headed Muslims do. By the way, did you know there is a 2500 signature petition against the East London mega-mosque signed by local Muslim residents on the basis of the threat it poses?

An interesting glimpse into the reasoning behind you views perphaps? What terrorist organisation does he associate with? Were I him, I'd feel the same. Imagine going back to Iraq to see what Britian had done to your familly, your country and your people.

Then you must surely agree that having Muslims in this country is a security risk, if all they have to do is visit Iraq to turn terrorist.

 

[CptStern]

Oh, so maybe there's a single eccentric Sikh in London who wears the 5 Ks, along with a monocle and bowtie. Who cares?

so this is another thread about your intolerence towards muslims.. wow colour me surprised ..

I'm not merely talking about the headscarf, I'm talking about the whole-body-uniform.

because you have any say as to what people wear, regardless of the reason behind it?

It's about what that headscarf represents.

what exactly is that? barbarism? terrorism? is a woman wearing a veil some sort of threat to you?

Did I say that?

yes you did actually when you implied muslims are a cultural "cesspool"

Six times more Jews have a 140+ IQ than any other race.

source?

They have made immense contributions to the world in terms of science, medicine, philosophy, economics...yeah, I'd say they're pretty worthy.
Meanwhile, Islam has been nothing but the enemy of real civilisation.

:upstare: you do like to generalize ..the jews are no better or worse than any other race/ethnic group ..individual achievements DO NOT accurately reflect an ethnic group

 

[repiV]

so this is another thread about your intolerence towards muslims.. wow colour me surprised ..

As opposed to another thread about your hatred of Americans?

because you have any say as to what people wear, regardless of the reason behind it?





what exactly is that? barbarism? terrorism? is a woman wearing a veil some sort of threat to you?

It represents oppression and divisiveness.

yes you did actually when you implied muslims are a cultural "cesspool"

No, Islam is a cultural cesspool. There's a difference.

source?

Here's something off Google, it's a google groups discussion but it highlights the point perfectly well.

Clicky

"Henry Harpending is about to titillate the world's conspiracy theorists
with one of the most politically incorrect academic papers of the new
millennium.

Why, he and his colleagues at the University of Utah asked, have Jews
of European descent won 27 per cent of the Nobel Prizes given to
Americans in the past century, while making up only 3 per cent of the
population? Why do they produce more than half the world's chess
champions? And why do they have an average IQ higher than any other
ethnic group for which there's reliable data, and nearly six times as
many people scoring above 140 compared with Europeans?"

:upstare: you do like to generalize ..the jews are no better or worse than any other race/ethnic group ..individual achievements DO NOT accurately reflect an ethnic group

It's not about ethnic groups, it's about cultures. And on the basis of cultures, you are absolutely, completely, flat-out false.

Nobel Prize comparison

 

[repiV]

So Hectic_Glenn, do you hand out infractions to everyone who says something that could be perceived as "offensive" in the Politics forum of all places, or just to people who say bad things about Islam?
Are you going to punish everyone who's said that Christianity is the worst thing that ever happened to the world, that people who believe in God are morons or that Christianity is ruining America?
Didn't think so.

Furthermore, can you please direct me to the rule that says it's not allowed to be offensive in the politics forum, and also to the definition of "offensive" as it pertains to the forum rules?

Thankyou.

 

[Solaris]

No, I said we tolerate the Muslim influence (the veil etc.) more than Turkey does. You misunderstood.

And I, for one am proud of that.

I don't feel like doing research to show you how wrong you are when it shouldn't even be necessary.

Then you can't be bothered to back up your argument that their is an evil conspiracy of 'the muslims' silencing our press, and your argument is invalid.

No, I think Islam is intolerant. And it is the supposed champions of tolerance, liberals, that are always the first to defend Islam. Hell, people like you defend Islam more vigorously than many of the more level-headed Muslims do. By the way, did you know there is a 2500 signature petition against the East London mega-mosque signed by local Muslim residents on the basis of the threat it poses?

So?

Then you must surely agree that having Muslims in this country is a security risk, if all they have to do is visit Iraq to turn terrorist.

So your freind is a terrorist then? Or is he just angry at Britian?

And I find it hilarious how on one hand you argue that being anti-muslim is not racist as Islam is a religion and not a race, yet on the other hand make such broad generalisations about Muslims that could only possibly be true if they were somehow genetically inferior.

 

[repiV]

And I, for one am proud of that.

You also idolise George Galloway and Fidel Castro.

Then you can't be bothered to back up your argument that their is an evil conspiracy of 'the muslims' silencing our press, and your argument is invalid.

No, I can't be bothered to structure a detailed argument to show that the press did not refrain from printing the Mohammed cartoons because they "had respect for people and didn't want to offend them". That's one of the most naive things you've ever said, and that's quite an accomplishment.

So?

So, you're more accepting of Islamic fundamentalism than many Muslims are. That's pretty messed up.

So your freind is a terrorist then? Or is he just angry at Britian?

No, he's not a terrorist, but that doesn't mean he won't become one. In any case, you're sidestepping the issue - if your logic is true, then you must admit that even the very presence of Arabs poses a threat to national security. Otherwise, you're either a major hypocrite or a terrorist sympathiser.

And I find it hilarious how on one hand you argue that being anti-muslim is not racist as Islam is a religion and not a race, yet on the other hand make such broad generalisations about Muslims that could only possibly be true if they were somehow genetically inferior.

Generalisations such as?

 

[Solaris]

You also idolise George Galloway and Fidel Castro.

True. Not Castro as much though.

No, I can't be bothered to structure a detailed argument to show that the press did not refrain from printing the Mohammed cartoons because they "had respect for people and didn't want to offend them". That's one of the most naive things you've ever said, and that's quite an accomplishment.

Probably, but I like to think thats why the decent papers didn't.

So, you're more accepting of Islamic fundamentalism than many Muslims are. That's pretty messed up.

Not really, I am an enemy of Religion, but also an enemy of racism.

No, he's not a terrorist, but that doesn't mean he won't become one. In any case, you're sidestepping the issue - if your logic is true, then you must admit that even the very presence of Arabs poses a threat to national security. Otherwise, you're either a major hypocrite or a terrorist sympathiser.

I'm a terrorist sympathiser.

Generalisations such as?

'Muslims are stupid'.

 

[Hectic Glenn]

J'dore quote wars, this forum truly inspires love.

With regard to an offensive message, I think most people would agree the following comments validate that.

Then you must surely agree that having Muslims in this country is a security risk, if all they have to do is visit Iraq to turn terrorist.

No, Islam is a cultural cesspool. There's a difference.

Islam has been nothing but the enemy of real civilisation.

I am offended by those, and I'm sure others are too. Anyway...moving on.

 

[repiV]

True. Not Castro as much though.
Probably, but I like to think thats why the decent papers didn't.

I'd like to think I'm a sex symbol, but it doesn't make it so.

Not really, I am an enemy of Religion, but also an enemy of racism.

So, your doublespeak aside, you're an enemy of religion except when that religion is Islam and other religions aren't being condemned in equal amounts?

I'm a terrorist sympathiser.

So, you have taken the utterly indefensible position of the traitor who wishes innocent civilians dead and yet expect to be taken seriously. Congratu-****ing-lations.

'Muslims are stupid'.

All I've done is posted facts. You want to dispute facts? Go ahead.

 

[Solaris]

So, you have taken the utterly indefensible position of the traitor who wishes innocent civilians dead and yet expect to be taken seriously. Congratu-****ing-lations.

Terrorist=/=People who kill innocent civillians

 

[repiV]

J'dore quote wars, this forum truly inspires love.

With regard to an offensive message, I think most people would agree the following comments validate that.

Then you must surely agree that having Muslims in this country is a security risk, if all they have to do is visit Iraq to turn terrorist.

Did you even read his post? The one where he said he can understand and sympathise with the guy's position and he would feel the same way?
If every Arab or Muslim who visited Iraq suddenly hated the West, then it's utterly goddamn obvious that they would pose a severe security risk. Is political correctness more important to you than logic or facts?

No, Islam is a cultural cesspool. There's a difference.

So tell me the good things about Islam. Bet you can't.

Islam has been nothing but the enemy of real civilisation.

Prove me wrong.

I am offended by those, and I'm sure others are too. Anyway...moving on.

I'm offended by Solaris being a terrorist sympathiser and CptStern thinking that the rights of Muslims to act exactly like they did in the Middle East override my right to live in a healthy, safe and productive society.
I'm also offended by your biased views on what is and is not "offensive".
So what exactly is your point?

 

[repiV]

Terrorist=/=People who kill innocent civillians

What?

 

[Solaris]

What?

What about the people who fire on troops in Iraq, they're terrorists, as are thoose who blow up army bases ect. Many terrorist groups can be justified and do not lay a finger on innocent civillians.

 

[repiV]

What about the people who fire on troops in Iraq, they're terrorists, as are thoose who blow up army bases ect. Many terrorist groups can be justified and do not lay a finger on innocent civillians.

A terrorist that would pose a security risk on British soil is obviously a terrorist that will be targeting civilians.
But, believe it or not, talking about the killing of British troops like it is something glorious or noble is just as bad. With Armistice Day just around the corner to boot. You really are a piece of shit. **** you.

 

[Solaris]

A terrorist that would pose a security risk on British soil is obviously a terrorist that will be targeting civilians.
But, believe it or not, talking about the killing of British troops like it is something glorious or noble is just as bad. With Armistice Day just around the corner to boot. You really are a piece of shit. **** you.

Not fully true, the IRA conducted military operations here and never attempted to kill innocent civillians, all though they were pretty sloppy sometimes.

Just becuase our troops are British does not make their cause right.

 

[repiV]

Not fully true, the IRA conducted military operations here and never attempted to kill innocent civillians, all though they were pretty sloppy sometimes.

Just becuase our troops are British does not make their cause right.

I didn't say it does make their cause right, did I?
Soldiers are paid to do their job, not question it. When it comes down to it, the only reason your disrespectful, arrogant, clueless self is able to live a free and prosperous life is because there are people with far more guts and integrity than you will ever have out there who are willing to risk or give their lives performing a thankless task that haunts them for life on your behalf.
By saying they deserve to be killed by crazed Jihadi lunatics, you show utter contempt for the people responsible for your freedom to be such a jackass. Go **** yourself.

 

[Solaris]

I didn't say it does make their cause right, did I?
Soldiers are paid to do their job, not question it. When it comes down to it, the only reason your disrespectful, arrogant, clueless self is able to live a free and prosperous life is because there are people with far more guts and integrity than you will ever have out there who are willing to risk or give their lives performing a thankless task that haunts them for life on your behalf.
By saying they deserve to be killed by crazed Jihadi lunatics, you show utter contempt for the people responsible for your freedom to be such a jackass. Go **** yourself.

Have I ever said, anywhere they deserve to die? Nope. The people who send them there desvere it, and the iraqis deserve the right to fight back, but the troops do not deserve to die, but, if they were brave enough, they would not have to.

 

[repiV]

Have I ever said, anywhere they deserve to die? Nope. The people who send them there desvere it, and the iraqis deserve the right to fight back, but the troops do not deserve to die, but, if they were brave enough, they would not have to.

Most of the terrorists aren't even Iraqi. They're foreign fighters drawn to Iraq to die for their faith. But you got too wrapped up in the revolutionary fantasy to understand that, didn't you?
The people making Iraq a hellhole since hostilities supposedly ended are not British and American troops, but warring factions. Believe it or not, lots of Iraqis actually support our presence there.

 

[Solaris]

Most of the terrorists aren't even Iraqi. They're foreign fighters drawn to Iraq to die for their faith. But you got too wrapped up in the revolutionary fantasy to understand that, didn't you?

Source? And I never said I supported all the terrorists, I just argued that being a terrorist by definition is not always a bad thing.

The people making Iraq a hellhole since hostilities supposedly ended are not British and American troops, but warring factions.

Our occupation fuels it.

Believe it or not, lots of Iraqis actually support our presence there.

As a percent, quite few.

 

[jverne]

statistically speaking the "islamic" world is inferior. but not because of people being stupid by default. but modern islam doesn't motivate science knowledge, Judaism does. Fundamentally islamic religion did but don't know what happened to that now. Islam nowadays literally breeds idiots.
Don't think that every individual there is genetically more stupid!

Asians are beginning to rise from that, because the school system is designed differently. Rewarding the smart.
We are talking science here, not social studies.

 

[repiV]

Source? And I never said I supported all the terrorists, I just argued that being a terrorist by definition is not always a bad thing.

Clicky

Maybe not most, but a sizeable proportion.

Being a Muslim extremist is never a good thing. How could you possibly think it is?
How could you possibly think their fight in Iraq is a noble one? If it wasn't for their "noble resistance", Iraq would have a democracy by now.

Our occupation fuels it.

Yes it does but that hardly makes us responsible for the actions of terrorists.

As a percent, quite few.

Yes, but it was a significant majority before this thing dragged on for years due to the terrorist activity. Whose fault is that?

 

[Solaris]

Yes, but it was a significant majority before this thing dragged on for years due to the terrorist activity. Whose fault is that?

A significant Majoirty of Iraqi's wanted us to invade/occupy them?

I dare you to try and find a source for that.

 

[repiV]

statistically speaking the "islamic" world is inferior. but not because of people being stupid by default. but modern islam doesn't motivate science knowledge, Judaism does. Fundamentally islamic religion did but don't know what happened to that now. Islam nowadays literally breeds idiots.
Don't think that every individual there is genetically more stupid!

Asians are beginning to rise from that, because the school system is designed differently. Rewarding the smart.
We are talking science here, not social studies.

Which Asians are you talking about? East Asian nations are the smartest of all.
I do find that very interesting. If even the beleageured People's Republic has an average IQ of 100, higher than most Western nations, it does make you wonder if there are genetic factors involved. Especially when you have Singapore, Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong and a couple of other countries from that region topping the list.