seriuoulsy, screw Iran >.>

[Raziaar]

"If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. (Matthew 5:29-30)

Don't let one bad apple spoil the bunch.

 

[Absinthe]

Islam itself is most certainly a large contributor to the denigration of women. I do not believe that many of these people who mistreat their women are simply using the religion as a means to an end. I imagine that many have been solely inspired by its teachings. They do it because they honestly think it pleases their god.

 

[CptStern]

A code of ethics which is taken directly from islam. I place alot of blame on the individuals, but the fact is that islam forces alot of these ridiculous customs on people

I've known several muslims who would be outraged by the girls burning at the school, they dont all follow their religion to a T

Islam itself is most certainly a large contributor to the denigration of women. I do not believe that many of these people who mistreat their women are simply using the religion as a means to an end. I imagine that many have been solely inspired by its teachings. They do it because they honestly think it pleases their god.

agreed, just like the heaven's gates loonies who killed themselves so that their souls could ride a spaceship containing jesus; their religious beliefs led to their deaths ..however this doesnt mean that all christians interpret the prescence of a comet to mean jesus is flying solo and needs some company

 

[Tyguy]

I've known several muslims who would be outraged by the girls burning at the school, they dont all follow their religion to a T

Then they aren't good muslims, you cant pick and choose, right? I've seen you use that reasoning many times.

 

[CptStern]

Then they aren't good muslims, you cant pick and choose, right? I've seen you use that reasoning many times.

well I'm not one to sit in judgement because I dont enough of their individual beliefs to make one however they're adament that allowing those girls to die is not being true to their religion (I remember this specific point becuase it became a debate during lunch at work months ago; it was between a christian and our muslim secretary, needless to say I didnt stick around long enough to call them both fools for subscribing to fairy tales masquerading as religion)

 

[Absinthe]

While that's good for them, it is still an aberration from the faith. While I can't say I recall any passage with specific regards to burning girls, there are quite a few explicit statements and practices endorsed by Mohammed that reveals a very particular view of a woman's worth. The most damning of these being put into practice is the long-held belief that a woman's testimony is only worth half of a man's.

If a Muslim expresses shock and outrage at the sight of women being treated like second-hand citizens, it is because he is less of one.

 

[jerkasaur]

The Qur'an also tells the believers that at the end of days, judgement day, even the stone will say: "O Muslim, behind me is the Jew, come and kill him.".

imposible. i'm a muslim and i've read the holy qoran. source.

Muhammed also called black people raisin heads,

again, not true. perhaps one of the most famous people in the history of islam is balal, who was black, and a slave, that was freed by muhammad (pbuh)
seriously, from where do you get all this bullshit?


ok don't mix two things, islam is one thing and muslims are another, if I, as a muslim do something wrong, it doesn't mean that islam says it's right. lots of muslim men treat their women horrible? ok, but that doesn't mean islam tells them to do so. it's their culture not their religion and i'm not saying it's good.
if this thread was like omg screw these people that force women to dress the way they don't want to, i would agree, but you're saying screw iran and omg it's because of islam. now i'm not buying that.

 

[CptStern]

While that's good for them, it is still an aberration from the faith. While I can't say I recall any passage with specific regards to burning girls, there are quite a few explicit statements and practices endorsed by Mohammed that reveals a very particular view of a woman's worth. The most damning of these being put into practice is the long-held belief that a woman's testimony is only worth half of a man's.

If a Muslim expresses shock and outrage at the sight of women being treated like second-hand citizens, it is because he is less of one.

the bible says as much ..if christians do not follow those specific teachings then they're not very good christians

 

[Absinthe]

Yes, of course. Do you expect an argument from me on that? Probably everybody in the United States who calls themselves a Christian is a pale shadow of the true followers ages ago.

I really don't need to be reminded with comparisons to Christianity when I critique Islam and the Muslim world today. I approach this subject matter entirely from a standpoint of rationalism and critical thought, and therefore view them all as idiotic. It's not like I'm being preferential between the two religions.

 

[CptStern]

Yes, of course. Do you expect an argument from me on that? Probably everybody in the United States who calls themselves a Christian is a pale shadow of the true followers ages ago.

I really don't need to be reminded with comparisons to Christianity when I critique Islam and the Muslim world today. I approach this subject matter entirely from a standpoint of rationalism and critical thought, and therefore view them all as idiotic. It's not like I'm being preferential between the two religions.

I'm not saying you are, all I'm saying is that many religions support ridiculous ideology it's just that some choose to follow them while others do not, the religion itself is just words in a book, whether people choose to follow it and to what degree is what is at issue here

 

[Tyguy]

jerkasaur....why do you believe in islam when Christianity is so much more believable?




/horrendous sarcasm

 

[Nemesis6]

imposible. i'm a muslim and i've read the holy qoran. source.

HADITH Sahih Bukhari 4:52:176
HADITH Sahih Bukhari 4:52:177
HADITH Sahih Bukhari 4:56:791

HADITH Sahih Muslim 41:6981
HADITH Sahih Muslim 41:6982
HADITH Sahih Muslim 41:6983
HADITH Sahih Muslim 41:6984
HADITH Sahih Muslim 41:6985

again, not true. perhaps one of the most famous people in the history of islam is balal, who was black, and a slave, that was freed by muhammad (pbuh)
seriously, from where do you get all this bullshit?

Yes, true. This was Muhammed's reaction when he met an Ethiopian; He described him as a raisin-head.

ok don't mix two things, islam is one thing and muslims are another, if I, as a muslim do something wrong, it doesn't mean that islam says it's right. lots of muslim men treat their women horrible? ok, but that doesn't mean islam tells them to do so. it's their culture not their religion and i'm not saying it's good.
if this thread was like omg screw these people that force women to dress the way they don't want to, i would agree, but you're saying screw iran and omg it's because of islam. now i'm not buying that.

But Islam does instruct men to beat their wives, "lightly", though. They even have rules dedicated so people can do it properly.

Sura 4:34

1. "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" (Rodwell's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
2. "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme." (Dawood's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

 

[Krynn72]

Is Jerkasaur the new Numbers?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Oh what, you've never met Jerkasaur? He's the forum ... eh, forum ... past technocratic aethist turned Sunni Moslem?! ... not like him at all, really.

 

[jerkasaur]

... past technocratic aethist turned Sunni Moslem?!

i'm shia actually. but then again it's the Muslim part that's important.

But Islam does instruct men to beat their wives, "lightly", though. They even have rules dedicated so people can do it properly.

I'll have to answer this after asking fully about it from a few people.

 

[Nemesis6]

Better yet, let's ask this Qatari Imam about it:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iWGA8i6scYY

Surely he is just an extremist? let's ask a Saudi Arabian one:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58

Ok, so there are rules for beating your wife? It must not a mark he says, that is probably why the Muslims in Spain made a book dedicated on how to beat your wife without leaving marks. You know what the Imam responsible got as punishment? He had to read their laws. It's that easy to get out of being charged for organized domestic abuse... Only for Muslimun of course!

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the muslims I know are some of the kindest people I know.

 

[DEATH eVADER]

Religious laws are retarded. Religion and Government should be separate. End of story.
.

Tell that to George

"God made me do it!"

 

[jerkasaur]

concerning the verse 4:34

1- Like its two sister religions (Judaism and Christianity) Islam is a patriarchal religion, so if there is anything wrong with its patriarchal nature we must ask God the creator who has decided to put it this way.

2- Like all other Qur'anic verses this verse must be studied and discussed in the context of its chapter

3- Like all other Qur'anic verses 4:34 has been revealed in a context of power dynamic and socio-cultural circumstances. To know what it really meant to new Muslims, the verse must be understood under the same circustances. This carachteristic of sacred texts is called suigeneris nature of revelation.

4- Like most those Qur'anic verses which are about human interactions, 4:34 will have different interpretations in different socio-cultural contexts.

5- The verse is in a way conditional, so when the speaker says: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, He immediately adds: because Allah has exceled some of them to others [by letting some being wealthier than others], and because they spend [to support their family members] from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient [to Allah], and guard in the husband's absence [when they go to war] what God orders them to guard.
So, what is wrong with this part? Isn't this the reality of most families in the world within the history of human being?

6- The verse has two parts, the second part is about women who betray their husbands, and want to commit adultery. The speaker orders a man whose wife tends to be a prostitute to a) talk to her, then if she still continues b) avoid sleeping with her, then if she still continues her nasty behavior c) to beat her then if they return to obedience [of God's law], seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.

I guess that clears a lot of things, at least for me.

Ok, so there are rules for beating your wife? It must not a mark he says, that is probably why the Muslims in Spain made a book dedicated on how to beat your wife without leaving marks.

there was a TV report tonight here in Iran that talked about the extremists and their talks and how the media has started a new propaganda against Islam using these people's stupid words.

 

[Nemesis6]

concerning the verse 4:34

That whole paragraph you posted didn't clear anything up. It threw in fancy words and told me something I already knew about the verse. So am I to interpret this as a sign that you acknowledge this; that the Quran allows men to beat their women?

there was a TV report tonight here in Iran that talked about the extremists and their talks and how the media has started a new propaganda against Islam using these people's stupid words.

You're being sarcastic, right? Your media is run by the government which is controlled by the puppet of Khomeini. Please, dude. Anyway, I'm sure the documentary was a piece of shit like most stuff that airs on Iranian TV, because let's face it: Whenever a Muslim gets in hot water over something he said, the Muslims do not condemn it. Well, they might condemn it, but they know that what these people say Are merely verses and texts from the Qur'an. That's why the only excuse they have is that they're being "quoted out of context", just like Abu Usama in the Greenlane Mosque in England.

 

[jerkasaur]

I feel I have said everything needed to be said. You're clearly not looking for the truth, you just want to shout out your anger. having a discussion with you is useless.

 

[Nemesis6]

You haven't really said anything more than just informing me that Iranian TV broadcasts bullshit, which I already know, and then you cutted and pasted something off a website, that is hardly saying something at all. Iran's laughably pathetic TV aside, with no ill will, I interpretted the fact that you only tried to elaborate on the verses in question as a sign that you acknowledged the existence of their message; that beating your wife is OK. If you don't you'd better elaborate on your personal opinion instead of quoting websites.

 

[kirovman]

that beating your wife is OK.

I think there should be a poll.

 

[golden_fang]

I guess that clears a lot of things, at least for me.


there was a TV report tonight here in Iran that talked about the extremists and their talks and how the media has started a new propaganda against Islam using these people's stupid words.

Iranian TV is propaganda in itself.

 

[Nemesis6]

Speaking of Iranian TV and propaganda... Jerkasaur, just for the sake of the lols, try entering "orkut.com", "myspace.com", or "livejournal.com". And no, it's not your internet's fault that your connection "timed out".

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

But don't type in faithfreedom.org

Otherwise you'll proboaly be killed.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

i'm shia actually. but then again it's the Muslim part that's important.

Oh ... my goof! Had no idea.

Iran's laughably pathetic TV aside, with no ill will, I interpretted the fact that you only tried to elaborate on the verses in question as a sign that you acknowledged the existence of their message; that beating your wife is OK. If you don't you'd better elaborate on your personal opinion instead of quoting websites.

You've, got a point ... there.