Server-side or Client-side hit detection?

B

Bova

Guest
Hello everyone

I was just wondering if there had been any mention on whether Half-Life 2 is using server-side or client-side hit detection. I ask this because HL and it's mods having client-side hit detection is the big reason that cheats are so abundant. I know alot of people say there isn't much cheating but I hope no one goes into that argument at the moment. Halo has server-side hit detection and there are next to no cheats for it even still (and if there are, they must not be very useful because no one I know has heard of them and no one has ever reported seeing any suspicious behavior online). I really hope Valve decides to go with server-side hit detection because it could eliminate the problem of Aimbots before they start. Sorry if this has been asked alot, I looked at the last few pages and didn't see mention of it. So has anything on this subject been commented on from Valve?
 
uhh I think HL online has server-side hit detection. Hence all the "OMFG RESGISTER PLZKTHX" remarks when you aim head -- shoot -- see blood and it says you didn't hit them.
 
Umm... no, HL has client side, otherwise it wouldn't be at all playable on 56k... server side hit detection blows. Seriously I can deal with a few cheaters, but if its unplayable for me then the whole cheater argument is moot for me. Remember this is my opinion, if you are on BB and say "OMG 56kers shouldn't be playing on line games!!!11one!!!!1" Then I say goto hell and take a nice nap. Thank you.
 
i would prefer server side hit detection. cheating is always the #1 problem ppl have with online games. a litle more lag for drastically less cheaters? ill take that anyday.
 
WillH said:
Umm... no, HL has client side, otherwise it wouldn't be at all playable on 56k... server side hit detection blows. Seriously I can deal with a few cheaters, but if its unplayable for me then the whole cheater argument is moot for me. Remember this is my opinion, if you are on BB and say "OMG 56kers shouldn't be playing on line games!!!11one!!!!1" Then I say goto hell and take a nice nap. Thank you.
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Heh..well no need for the pre-empted insult, because I'm not gonna say 56kers shouldn't be playing online :) I know not everyone can afford broadband, and that some areas don't have it. I used to use 56k until a year or two ago so I know how it is, and I can imagine 56k in a game with server-side would be hell.

That said, I still think it's the way to go regardless. I don't like knowing that all these hacker clans have already gotten sites put up for HL2 cheats. I expect they will all jump on it the second it's released and really, there's no worse way to have your first multiplay experience in a game with such awesome potential for online play than to come across people aimbotting and being an all around jerk.
 
Tyrant said:
i would prefer server side hit detection. cheating is always the #1 problem ppl have with online games. a litle more lag for drastically less cheaters? ill take that anyday.
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I agree. Also, with Halo at least, server-side is very easy to deal with. Some might point to BF1942, saying that game has the worst aiming of all FPS ever (I agree), but it's not so much that it's server side as it is the netcode for that game. In BF1942, I have literally unloaded an entire clip of sniper shots into an enemy at about 10 feet away and hit nothing, and these weren't sloppily aimed, I'm talking laying prone and taking steady aim etc. In Halo though, the only time it's really noticeable is you have to lead your pistol shots a bit, which is very easy to adapt to. I don't even notice it anymore.
 
HL uses 100% server-side hit detection. That is a fact.

What you see on your screen is called "client-side prediction". Your computer takes the last few frames of information about moving objects and extrapolates the movement forward in time to where it thinks the moving object is now. If the moving object changed direction since the last update it will display false information. The movement errors on a fast connection are almost imperceptible but the higher the ping is the more you will notice them. Your gunshots with randomized inaccuracy are also calculated independently on the server and client to allow you to get an immediate result instead shots that are accurate yet appear to be lagged. In all cases, the information that the server has is the information that counts. You may think your shot hit (and you saw blood) but it might not have hit on the server... and if his (or your) ping is too high he might not even be where you think he is. It helps a lot in making the game more playable for 56k'ers with 150+ pings. The only bad things are that it punishes the people that pay for fast connections because it doesn't help their games run any more smoothly but it still makes their gunshots and other randomized client-side predicted actions display incorrectly... and it increases the CPU load on the server because it has to do a lot of extra prediction, interpolation, etc.
 
Really? Wow...everyone I've talked to has thought HL had client-side all this time. But if that's right, why has no one been able to develop an aimbot for Halo, but has no trouble doing so for CS and the like? If this is true, then it's worse than I thought...there really won't be a way to get rid of cheaters in Hl2 ;( that's the worst news I've heard in a long time.
 
Because HL has been out for over 5 years and halo has been out for less then 5 months.
 
I think a combination of both in a wierd hybrid way might be nice.... valve could do it
 
Maybe there's no cheats for Halo (PC) because it's crap and no one really cares?
 
About Halo PC being crap, well, you see, that's your opinion. Enough people play Halo PC and like Halo that if an aimbot was possible someone would have made it. And 5 months is a long time for cheaters to come up with something, Call of Duty has been out around that long and there's plenty of cheats available for it.
 
Yeah, but what's the max amount of players allowed on a server for Halo? 16. Yeah. And even then I get some serious lag, when I could join a game of DoD and get very little lag with 30 people. (Not that you would want to play with 30 people in DoD, the maps are too small, just an example.
 
yea halo has no cheats..but it totally sucks to play online. Id rather deal with a hacker or two than having that weird lag 24/7
 
Letters... You seem to be in a bit of a bad mood today ;) . Then again, I can't blame you, this forum is going to hell.
 
Bova said:
I agree. Also, with Halo at least, server-side is very easy to deal with. Some might point to BF1942, saying that game has the worst aiming of all FPS ever (I agree), but it's not so much that it's server side as it is the netcode for that game. In BF1942, I have literally unloaded an entire clip of sniper shots into an enemy at about 10 feet away and hit nothing, and these weren't sloppily aimed, I'm talking laying prone and taking steady aim etc. In Halo though, the only time it's really noticeable is you have to lead your pistol shots a bit, which is very easy to adapt to. I don't even notice it anymore.
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in bf1942, you need to aim about 1 or 2 seconds in front of the target (meaning where the victim/target will be in 1-2 seconds from now). if you aim DIRECTLY on an enemy, he will probably NOT be there in 1-2 seconds (assuming he's moving) so of course you will miss. if you aim (depending on how far you are away from him) an inch or so in front of him, you will hit. practice makes perfect. bf1942 isn't *THAT* bad, and i have no problems sniping either.
 
umop said:
in bf1942, you need to aim about 1 or 2 seconds in front of the target (meaning where the victim/target will be in 1-2 seconds from now). if you aim DIRECTLY on an enemy, he will probably NOT be there in 1-2 seconds (assuming he's moving) so of course you will miss. if you aim (depending on how far you are away from him) an inch or so in front of him, you will hit. practice makes perfect. bf1942 isn't *THAT* bad, and i have no problems sniping either.
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I know, I was talking about an enemy sitting still. Although he WAS in the water (had just parachuted into it actually, I thought I could get the drop on him heh), so maybe that has something to do with it.
 
ElFuhrer said:
Letters... You seem to be in a bit of a bad mood today ;) . Then again, I can't blame you, this forum is going to hell.
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It could be worse, I could have asked "What'sl the release date for this?" or "OMG WHere DO I GET THE BETA?!?" or "can my pc run this hlp plz"....
 
ElFuhrer said:
Yeah, but what's the max amount of players allowed on a server for Halo? 16. Yeah. And even then I get some serious lag, when I could join a game of DoD and get very little lag with 30 people. (Not that you would want to play with 30 people in DoD, the maps are too small, just an example.
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That last sentence is a good reason why the amount of Halo players in a server is just right. Actually, 16 is almost too much for some of the maps. One of the newer ones though is huge, alot bigger than the other maps, and that's one map I'd like to have say 20 players in.

As for the lag, well I haven't experienced much of it. I see alot of complaints of lag though so it's obviously a widespread problem. I have no problem finding low ping servers that stay that way.
 
Letters said:
No ****ing shit. :rolling:
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I hope you are telling yourself that not me. I'm not the one that tried to use my own opinion as a reason for what OTHERS are doing. So kindly stfu. thanks
 
Going from halo xbox to halo pc was horrid. I was so used to non laggy halo party play, and now i cant snipe anyone thats moving at all. even if i aim ahead. When they're still, thats another story. Can you say 'automatic headshot'? I bet people get sick of me spawn killing after a while ;)
 
WillH said:
Umm... no, HL has client side, otherwise it wouldn't be at all playable on 56k... server side hit detection blows. Seriously I can deal with a few cheaters, but if its unplayable for me then the whole cheater argument is moot for me. Remember this is my opinion, if you are on BB and say "OMG 56kers shouldn't be playing on line games!!!11one!!!!1" Then I say goto hell and take a nice nap. Thank you.
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actually it is server side. so....your wrong. go check if you dont believe me
 
ok look at the engines that have cheats, they've been out for a long time and they are old engines(cod is quake3 engine). hl2 will be an entirly new engine and new anti-cheat technology, along with constant updates, fixing the loopholes, whatever. im pretty confident that hl2 will have no cheats or if it does they wont be to the effect they are now (wallhack, aimbot). prolly simple things like lighting or messing wiht player models to make them easier to see. oh adn client-side prediction is the best thing that hl has going for it, rewarding quick reflexes. i hope they have it or soemthing like it.
 
Also the cheats that are currently used on HL aren't affecting the game enigine but rather the video cards (or so I've been told)
 
KiNG said:
ok look at the engines that have cheats, they've been out for a long time and they are old engines(cod is quake3 engine). hl2 will be an entirly new engine and new anti-cheat technology, along with constant updates, fixing the loopholes, whatever. im pretty confident that hl2 will have no cheats or if it does they wont be to the effect they are now (wallhack, aimbot). prolly simple things like lighting or messing wiht player models to make them easier to see. oh adn client-side prediction is the best thing that hl has going for it, rewarding quick reflexes. i hope they have it or soemthing like it.
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I'd love it if that were true, but aren't the main people responsible for the HL1 hacks going through the source code right now, finding ways to compromise the system? I mean that's large part of the current delay right? If anything, it will be even worse because now they have all the blueprints laid out right in front of them.
 
WillH said:
Umm... no, HL has client side, otherwise it wouldn't be at all playable on 56k... server side hit detection blows. Seriously I can deal with a few cheaters, but if its unplayable for me then the whole cheater argument is moot for me. Remember this is my opinion, if you are on BB and say "OMG 56kers shouldn't be playing on line games!!!11one!!!!1" Then I say goto hell and take a nice nap. Thank you.
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and to you id be forced to say go to the store and get a decent connection.



Server side hits are numerous times better.

you have to lead your enemies. (wich is actualy pointless in half life cos the enemie is a foot away all the time)

it stops aim bots.

and even if the guy is using no recoil hacks and neon skins he still has to aim to get a kill.
 
I haven't seen too many cheats these days, people are just as good as the hackers now, sort of sad if you think about it.
Anyway, client side, server side, who gives a ***t just get Cable :p


P.S. HL is Server Side. :)
 
Well... thousands upon thousands of HL/CS players say lag predicted aiming is the way to go, I'd have gotten pissed off with CS ages ago if it was the lag-fest that is Battlefield...

Basically the only reasons that aimbots proliferate in HL and HL mods more than those games without lag predicted shots, is that actually aiming at a player doesn't mean a thing is the latter, you have to guess where they are going, and that if you give any game 5 years of immense popularity, someone will make cheats.
 
Bova said:
I'd love it if that were true, but aren't the main people responsible for the HL1 hacks going through the source code right now, finding ways to compromise the system? I mean that's large part of the current delay right? If anything, it will be even worse because now they have all the blueprints laid out right in front of them.
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i think valve is currently rewriting the code that was stolen, or atleast modifying it heavily enough so any cheat in the works right now wont have any effect.
 
Also kinda hard to make a cheat for the entire game if you only have 1/3 of its source...

Also the ending arguement for server side and client side hit detection.
Go to your options.
"Auto Aim" (If the server allows it). Hence.....server side hit detection.
 
Auto-aim can be done client-side on a system that uses server-side hit detection... in fact, if there is auto-aim it is usually done that way. If auto-aiming itself was done server-side you would get lagged auto-aiming that would just screw up your aim rather than help it. The part of auto-aim that the server controls is allowing you to activate it in the first place... because it is a cheat. I could go into a huge explanation (multiple pages) as to how the hit detection/prediction stuff works in HL but that would be a waste of time since the details are irrelevant.
 
The HL2/Source Mod FAQ at the valve-erc says this:

One of the cool things we've added to the multiplayer engine is the ability to predict the creation of additional entities, such as projectiles... so you can do a predicted rocket, have it simulate on the client and even do a non-lagged rocket jump in your mod if you wanted to.

Also, entities that go out of the PVS on the client are no longer destroyed and recreated upon re-entry to the PVS. The entities live continuously on the client. In fact, you can create additional purely client side entities and have them simulate completely locally, too.

If you're familiar with the Half-Life 1 SDK code, there's now a C_BaseEntity on the client that matches the CBaseEntity on the server in almost all ways.

On the performance of the networking code, it's as compressible and much more flexible than the Half-Life 1 code.


So basically they are sticking with their old netcode, with some big improvements like predicted projectiles!
 
BUMP

Sorry if thats not allowed, just want people to see the info if they haven't already. I posted that reply late at night.
 
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