Should valve dump 56k support?

[John Romero]

A.) i dont see what 56k people have to do with me, thats their problem theyre on 56k not mine. (and for all you retards out there who think laggers lag a server. they dont. low pingers lag a server)

b.) physics are calculated client side so i dont really see a point for this thread except you want to express your distaste for 56kers.

 

[John Romero]

Well, not really, its bandwidth dependant; that'd mean that a guy with a 512k connection eats the server up as effectively as 10 56kers... which is apparently true, according to some of our more technically minded members :rolling: Don't really understand it myself...

well allow me to break it down for you then kind sir.

You see your connection is like a box....no lets say a pipe. the data flowing through it can only go as large as the pipe is wide. the avg server is hosted from a 10mb - 100mb+ datacenter somewhere. now assuming that server a has 10mb of bandwidth and 20 slots.

1 user on 56k can only download a max of 56kbits a second. me on my cable can download 3mbits a second. but we wll know cs doesnt use that much. but if it was limited only by your connection you can see how 3 guys like me on 3mb connections would rob all the bandwidth from a server. the 10mb pipe with 3, 3mb pipes and a 56kbit pipe is pretty much tapped out at that point.

which is why i laugh hysterically everytime someone suggests we kick a 56ker or a lagger from the server because they are lagging it up. not only is that quite impossible since they are using less bandwidth being on 56k and or laggins. its also quite laughable.


i hope ive made some sense. if not im sure someone else smart will exlain it. its 6:30 am and ive been up all night i got class in a few hours and ive been drinking day old coffeeeee.



oh i forgot to explain why a lagger cant be lagging a server.


lag is usually caused by an overloaded router somewhere between you and your connection point. all lag is , is packets that are delivered late because of traffic. like when you are late for work. if i send a packet from my end at my 0 ping starting at my computer and all the routers ping under 20 till i get to the overloaded router then 200 from there to the server. the only thing that could be causing lag on the server from me is that the server has to do extra calculations because my data was late. and if that extra calculation lags a server then the server is obviously made of string and bits of gum because there is no way that should cause any server to lag in this day and age. since my packets are travelling independent of the server untill they arrive and are sent back to me theres no way in hell me on a laggy connection can lag a server. the lag is 99.9999% because that same laggy router is in front of the server and between everyone and the server.

[me] ---------------|=========|--------[==A==]

[you]----------------|=L a g g y= |-------[normal=]

[someone]-----------|=r o u t e r=|-------[nonlaggy]

[someone]-----------|==========|-------[=server=]

this is the reason you are lagging.

[me] ---------------|==LAG====|--------[==A==]

[you]-------------------------------------[normal=]

[someone]--------------------------------[nonlaggy]

[someone]--------------------------------[=server=]

not this.

 

[24Gamer]

A.) i dont see what 56k people have to do with me, thats their problem theyre on 56k not mine. (and for all you retards out there who think laggers lag a server. they dont. low pingers lag a server)

b.) physics are calculated client side so i dont really see a point for this thread except you want to express your distaste for 56kers.

*People with slow connections may not lag everyone else but during interactions (killing etc.) with the 56ker will cause "laggy gameplay".
*Only some of the physics is calculated client side (i.e. objects that dont effect gameplay)

 

[Chris D]

The physics really don't have that much of an effect on the network code. Gabe Newell released these figures on HLFallout:

I've been getting questions from people about how CS: Source would change network bandwidth (mainly from 56K people worried about their ability to play). I got this email from Martin, and figured it would answer people's questions:

======================================================

I measured the bandwidth demands for GoldSrc & Source with 16 bots on de_dust. This should be realistic since bots generate the same network traffic as human players do. I used a network monitor to get the exact traffic data for a process. Unfortunatly the tool doesn't include the UDP header size, so I had to add 0.55 kB/sec to all results. The resulting bandwidth per client is:

GoldSrc : 2.72 kB/sec
Source : 2.85 kB/sec

This is pretty good since we added quite a few physics entities in de_dust. I made an extra testrun where I disabled physics in Source and got 2.48 kB/sec.

It's tried to measure spikes somehow and compared packet size distribution. Source engine packets are a little bit bigger, but large packets are rare (about 7% for packets > 256 bytes).


setup: 2 hosts, measured 10 minutes per configuration
network settings: rate 10000; cl_updaterate 20; cl_cmdrate 30
GoldSrc: CS:CZ, de_dust_cz
Source: CS:S, de_dust


total in bytes total out bytes avg in kB/Sec
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
GoldSrc testrun 1 : 1,357,534 443,948 2.21
GoldSrc testrun 2 : 1,306,061 412,817 2.13

Source testrun 1 : 1,498,837 436,307 2.44
Source testrun 2 : 1,323,526 429,419 2.15

Source no physics : 1,184,831 430,957 1.93

(all values without UDP header)


Packet sizes distribution in bytes:

GoldSrc Source
--------------------------------------
< 64 1.6% 1.7%
64 - 127 61.2% 56.1%
128 - 255 32.7% 35.0%
256 - 511 4.3% 6.9%
511 - 1023 0.1% 0.2%
> 1024 0.1% 0.1%

There will never be a need for Valve to scrap 56Kers unless technological advances in the future warrant it wherein the game would become unplayable for 56Kers anyway. At the moment they do no harm and I'm pretty certain that with the introduction of physics into a game like CS:S (and I know 56K works well with it as I had to originally play on a 56K modem) there aren't many cutbacks for those people that do have 56K modems.

 

[-UGC-Commando]

some of you seem to forget that you can set an upper limit on bandwidth per client,and i have yet to see a game where this is not in place by default.So in fact a client with a t1 can only use the SAME amount of bandwidth as someone on 256k for instance.So people with broadband do not lag a server,as the server caps there bandwidth lower than there max dl speed,and i don't know of any fps that uses more than 10 k/bs at a time,far lower than even a slow broadband connections bandwidth.56k connections have the dual problem of not quite enough bandwidth for the job,plus a latency at least 2-3 times that as the average broadband connection.People on 56k DO spoil games for others though,as they tend to warp around the screen with the abilitiy to dodge bullets.

 

[The Mullinator]

People on 56k DO spoil games for others though,as they tend to warp around the screen with the abilitiy to dodge bullets.

Believe me its far more frustrating for the person on 56k when every all the other players are also warping around, and when they fire it takes at least a few seconds before it finally registers.

I just got of of 56k and I have to say that throwing away "support" just wouldn't be right. The only way I now have highspeed is because I moved into university residence where I am given access to it. At home there is simply no possible way to get it.

Plus I don't think anyone should use that survey as a way of knowing just how many people have 56k who will buy HL2. When I was still on 56k I simply didn't download steam because there was no point whatsoever. Its most likely like that for 80% of 56kers out there.

 

[Edcrab]

I should maybe point out that as a long term dial-upper, from experience I don't get any complaints of "warping" or "jerkiness" (either against me or when I see my fellow but non-laggy players doing it) as long as my ping is sub-300; I vary from 190 to 280 depending on the server, but from past occurences playing with 350 or higher is a horrible thing for all concerned- thats why I hate servers which auto-kick HPBs.

Kick 400+-ers, be my guest, but 200 isn't bad enough to rile anyone; either that or everyone just doesn't bother whining and I am in fact owning everyone in a most unfair manner

Oh, and thanks for trying to explain things; I'm sure I'll remember this ti-

Ooh! A rabbit! Rabbit. Rabbit... Rabbit... :imu:

Lousy attention span.

 

[Rocketman9mm]

I don't care what percentage has them. You just cannot screw someone over because of their net connection. Can't it be considered some kind of discrimination to not allow 56k owners (however few) to enjoy your product as best they can, same as every broadband user? It may not even be a money issue, they may just not be in an area where it is realisticly feasible to get high speed.

I think it's self-centered and you'd have to be quite an asshole to want to cut people off from playing a game entirely for something like better online physics. "ban slow pingers! I want that soda can flying more realisticly when i shoot it with my AWP!"

 

[StardogChampion]

Physics being a big part of the gameplay would be the only reason to remove 56k support, but since they're not...

 

[PvtRyan]

Nah, I don't think they should dump support, although it shouldn't be a reason to hold back on physics. You should still be allowed to play it, but accept the fact that it will play like shit. Like the fact that you can still play it with a GF2MX, but have to accept HL2 will play like shit.
Broadband WILL be a minimum requirement some day. Unfortunately for the people who can't get it.

 

[Rocketman9mm]

hpefully by then some form of broadband will be the standard installation, everyone will be able to get it because of that.

 

[geowa]

in server filters there should be a drop box for either low ping (with almost perfect physics powered by the server) and one for high ping for all the lag monsters

 

[Yellonet]

Why not have the ability to made adjustments to the server depending on if you allow 56k or not?

 

[geowa]

hopefully they will but nothing has been said about this from valve, maby theyll add it in the release version of source games

 

[The Mullinator]

Why not have the ability to made adjustments to the server depending on if you allow 56k or not?

How many servers do you think would actually allow 56kers if they had a choice?

 

[f|uke]

How many servers do you think would actually allow 56kers if they had a choice?

Your point is?

Some would,. and considering that most online players have broadband, it wouldn't take too many.

The "server option" has been brought up several times in this thread. I think its a good solution.

 

[Ecthe|ioN]

nah .. leave the 56K'ers.. It works for now. Don't fix it if it's not broken. Pretty much what Valve always do anyway

 

[geowa]

yea like changing the perfect gameplay of v1.0 of cs and finally resulting in the mess of cs1.6 (i do like the cz skins on 1.6 tho )

 

[Yellonet]

How many servers do you think would actually allow 56kers if they had a choice?

A few percent. But that should be enough... People with broadband shouldn't be punished with simplified physics because of a few 56k'ers.

If you allow 56k, turn the physics down.
If you want good physics don't allow 56k.

 

[Eon Blue]

DSL is less than $5 more than Earthlink in my area.
There's just no excuse anymore (unless DSL isn't in your area). That's all I have to say about it.

 

[Darg]

Of course not. A lot of people still have to use 56k modems. Either because broadband is too expensive or more likely not available in their area. A year ago broadband was unheard of in ireland. Now you can get it as long as you are 3 miles from the nearest router. Which incidentally still leaves over half the country out of reach of it.
The amount of people shown to have 56k on the steam survey (~3%) is so low because for that survey you *had* to download the test which was IIRC around 50-100mb alone.
Most people will still be buying HL2 the old fashioned way. That means a lot more 56kers will be able to play it then those that took the massive amount of time to do that test. I'd reckon from other game experiences the true number of 56k players would be around 30-40% of the total.
Do you really think valve want to ostricise such a large number of players?
The question of removing 56k support is ludicrous at least for the moment. In 4 or 5 years when broadband is more widely spread then maybe the 56k modem can be laid to rest. As of right now too many people still rely on it for multiplayer gaming.

 

[Rocketman9mm]

DSL is less than $5 more than Earthlink in my area.
There's just no excuse anymore (unless DSL isn't in your area). That's all I have to say about it.

the "unless DSL isn't in your area" cannot be ignored. but yes, for the most part the price increase for dsl over 56k isn't that large.

 

[smacky]

i say drop it, i hate it when a 56ker is on, they lag so much its hard to kill them. Also if you cant afford a cheap DSL line then just forget about multiplayer.

 

[Eon Blue]

Also if you cant afford a cheap DSL line then just forget about multiplayer.

the "unless DSL isn't in your area" cannot be ignored.

sixchar

 

[Yetskii]

Dialup only servers

Valve themselves should host dialup only servers. They can detect what network connection youare running...this way they can all lag together

 

[Demonmerc]

'Dropping 56k support' is kind of a myth, Valve has included excellent lag compensation code that makes 80-90% of 56kers play normally. They have optimized the netcode as much as possible. This is affects broadband just as much as 56k, except broadband could play without the optimizations, 56k couldn't.

The only way they could 'drop 56k support' is to make the game send/receive more info from the client. What more do you want? The only thing that really comes to mind is physics. Maybe some minor movement smoothing. Things that could be turned off so 56kers can still play.

 

[Majestic XII]

I know one person with 56k, and he lives out in the archipelago (and the only island without broadband), but they will connect the island with the rest in a few month.

~75% of the population here can get 8Mbit or above, so i dont think its a big problem. People with 56k doesnt play online anyways

Drop it.

Edit: I say drop it but dont stop optimizeing it for godsake.

 

[Absinthe]

I don't think they should drop it (yet).

But some people should have the common sense to get a faster connection if it's available to them. It won't be too long until the dinosaur known as "56k" will become extinct.

 

[Darg]

People who are in areas that have broadband don't seem to realise that there are entire countrys that cannot get connections higher then 56k. Like I said Ireland with over 4 million people had no broadband access (apart from some connection to large companies) until a year or two ago.

Most people replying here seem to have little to no idea of how the internet actually works.. You have to be within a certain distance of your nearest router to get anything higher then 128k and even that is limited by distance itself.
Broadband is simply a boosted version of the standard 56k connection. It runs on exactly the same copper cables so of course it is. It's just a different type of modem with boosters on either end. To work though you have to be near (~3 miles) the router or another booster station.

Get it through your heads please that a large portion of the online population CANNOT get anything higher then 56k.. please stop whining about cheapskate 56kers who won't pay up for the higher connection so of course they deserve to get royally *%^£ed.

And if I hear someone say that it is harder to kill 56kers because they jump over the map so much one more time I'm gonna hunt that person down and either kill them or teach them the truth about how a server/client system works.

What you see on your screen comes entirely from the server. The server will *not* let a player jump. If you are experiencing lag then you may see the jump on your client side but in terms of the 'real game' you do not. If you use that excuse for not hitting a target then you must just have a lousy aim or be lagging yourself is all I can say.

It might help for you to imagine two games running at once. The one running on the server (this one is the real one.. this determines whether a player gets shot or not) and the one that you see (this one is delayed by your lag and distorted by your packet loss).
If a player is lagging then to you (the super cool broadband wielding 1337azz mofo with the UZI) that merely means any commands he sends to the server (move, shoot etc..) will either be delayed or not arrive at all (sucks to be a 56ker eh?). What you see is his character moving as per his last known instructions. I'm sure you've all seen a player lag out and keep moving in a straight line until he starts walking into a wall. That's because the server hasn't recieved his frantic instructions to not run over that cliff or into that mine infested area.
This actually helps the broadband players because now you have a target that not only is moving in a straight line but one that cannot fire back because his client side game is frozen on the last frame of information that it recieved.
I really don't understand what you guys have to complain about.. you guys that don't have a POS 56k modem that is.

 

[Edcrab]

Can we please ensure that people read the entire thread? I’m an incredibly vehement (i.e., opinionated) dial-upper and even I have managed to agree with purebred BBers that server options are they way forward- I mean, for goodness sake, has Valve said that physics are already availably to toggle or what? I could’ve sworn they have; never mind server features, just turn the so-called “mild” physics off for players- that way us shitty-conn guys may have to be without tumbling soda cans, but the bandwidth beasts can juggle them to their hearts content, its just that I wouldn’t be able to see them…

And the “dropping” talk is a bit daft- Valve won’t go out of their way to exclude anyone, they aren’t going to add unnecessary content to cripple 56kers or anything- what people mean is that Valve should concentrate on the BB community, which even I agree with.

 

[-UGC-Commando]

What you see on your screen comes entirely from the server. The server will *not* let a player jump. If you are experiencing lag then you may see the jump on your client side but in terms of the 'real game' you do not. If you use that excuse for not hitting a target then you must just have a lousy aim or be lagging yourself is all I can say.
QUOTE]
have you ever played on anything but 56k?i have played on both 56k and bb,and i can state it is an FACT that people with bad connections-like 56k DO warp across the screen!everyone who has played FPS games online with a decent connection or not will have seen people warp around who have bad connections,and its not caused by anything but that persons connection-not the server,not the other players!

 

[DigitalAssassin]

Of course they shouldn't, it hurts people with limited bandwidth, 56k modems, people who don't have access to fast internet, and in all sorts of other situations. That and increases lag in big games. Just no.

 

[Stiler]

Man, some people are very un-aware of how netcode for a lot of games work.

A 56ker on a sever will NOT cause other people to lag. That's just a myth, it's not true.

The only time a slower connection can affect yours in a game are in games that require people to be "in sync" (like most RTS games require), most fps games(like hl) don't require the person to be in sync like some other mutliplayer gamers.

If a 56ker lags, it doesn't affect someone elses connection, it only affects the 56kers.


Also, I'm on 56k, I would LOVE to get broadband. I'm too far away from my local CO to get DSL(they are wired for it) and comcast won't run cable net to my house (it's on my freaking road). I even offered comcast and extra 200$ to run it to me and they wouldn't, so i'm screwed there too.

I can't even get IDSN...

 

[Bigcheese]

i hate lag comp code. i run out and then go behind a wall and then a second later i die (no its not going through the wall) it just sucks.

i know 56k lags. i have been hosting serves for about 1 year now and EVERY time a 56ker joins it lags. plain and simple truth.

so i say serve sided. in ut2004 there are about 20 56k only servers ran by some of the better server comps out there, so they still have a choice.

 

[poseyjmac]

i vote for broadband/dialup segregation!

 

[Stiler]

"i know 56k lags. i have been hosting serves for about 1 year now and EVERY time a 56ker joins it lags. plain and simple truth."

learn some netcode and then try to make an argument.

At least try to provide some shred of truth....

I've got my response, infact I have it from a Developer for a multiplayer game:
http://forums.s2games.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=100600955&f=971600065&m=6786093181

Heh... just wrote a huge long thing below. In short, a person with a slow connection won't hurt anyone else's connection, unless that person was the server. If you want more detail, read the rest:

In our game, you will only see as much lag as your personal connection to the server. The reason you see the problem you described in warcraft is because it uses a different networking model, as do most RTS games. To put it very simply, because of the nature of these games, it is necessary for all the clients to stay in synch with each other, so if one person falls behind, everyone else has to wait for them to catch up. Imagine you were playing a game of chess with someone by telling each other your moves over the phone, and each of you had a board in front of you. Now, if your opponent forgets to move one of your pieces on their board, the whole game get's messed up because you're both playing a different game at that point in time.

The system we're using is the one typically seen with FPS games, and works more like this:
You and your opponent each have a board, but rather than talking to each other, you are both talking to a third person who also has a board (the server). You can tell him whatever you want, like "I take his king with my king!", but he's only actually going to update his board when you make a valid move. Periodicly he'll tell everyone what their board should look like, so even if you mess up somewhere, you can rearrange and get back in synch with everyone.


Hm.. maybe that wasn't so simple, but hopefully that helps everyone understand a little. One system really isn't better than the other, each one is just better suited to different applications.

 

[Cole]

Look, im a 56ker. I dl 300meg files, i play Cs, i play CS:S, i play DoD, starcraft, warcraft 3 and so on...

Look when i first entered there forums i was tolled straight out a few times that 56k'ers in now way lag other players in games like Cs, or Cs:S. I am in BpT, i play on our server daily(ALOT). Now i do good i dont do bad and you wanna know something.. NO ONE HAS EVER COMPLAINED ABOUT MY PING. Not 1 clan member, not one person. And we get alot of people at our server.

I mean, you broadband people dont know how lucky you got it.. I bet 90% of the broadband never-been-on-a-56k people would laugh at a 56ker dling a 100 meg file. No lets make that a 10 meg file. You would thing its to big and would take to long. I dl 300 meg files easily now days. Im on a 56k, i get 5.4kb/s for my average dl speed. I get 200 pings during games.
I CAN STATE FOR A FACT THAT WE DON'T LAG YOU. Infact, the broadband people are sending more packets and are lagging the server more than us 56k'ers. Because us 56k'ers dont send as many packets.

High speed ISN'T EVERYWHERE. As people said before, it's not in some countries. Around here all we can get is satelite but ill choose 200 ping over 2000 ping any day. So im on a 56k. We can't get dsl, or cable. No ISDN.


When we lag, as far as i can tell it dosn't affect u at all. All you will see is us standing still or something. According to me when i get a lag spike, i see everything thats happening around me, i see people move i see guns shoot i just can't move.

When you see someone flying half-way accross the screen, thats a hacker, or your eyes are bad, or your just plain lying to me.



THE INTERNET ISN'T EVEN EVERYWHERE, AND YOU WANT HIGH SPEED TO BE THE NEXT REQUIRMENT.
56K'ERS DO PLAY ON THE NET, WE DO, LOTS OF US DO. SO NEVER SAY "56KERS DONT PLAY ON THE NET"

WHEN YOU DROP 56K SUPPORT, YOU DROP CASH! WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, COMPANIES LIKE BLIZZARD AND EVEN VALVE ARE LOOKING INTO YOUR POCKETS. THATS WHAT THEY WANT. IT'S TRUE OR ELSE THERE GAMES WOULD BE FREE.

So ONLESS U CAN GET HIGH SPEED EVERYWHERE ON THIS PLANET, STFU AND LEAVE 56KER SUPPORT.