Sniping Infidels for Jesus

[Escaep]

Of course they don't have a choice. It's all standard issue.

Idk, maybe they had the choice in the fine print somewhere.

 

[VirusType2]

Idk, maybe they had the choice in the fine print somewhere.

Jesus Rifle (Y/N)?

 

[Tyguy]

this bothered me at first but in the grand scheme of things it's typical religious shit we can't really do anything about

 

[xcellerate]

YR3829HUIEH931C3...omg bible verse! This is about as stupid as people getting upset because the patent for the sight was 329TH2666FGDSH, omg 666 our soldiers can't use these sights!

I mean really, this has absolutely no affect on the rifle's ability to function or the soldier's ability to wield it...can't we find something better to get worked up over?

I'll take sight #13-666-XBOX360 please.

 

[Eejit]

YR3829HUIEH931C3...omg bible verse! This is about as stupid as people getting upset because the patent for the sight was 329TH2666FGDSH, omg 666 our soldiers can't use these sights!

I mean really, this has absolutely no affect on the rifle's ability to function or the soldier's ability to wield it...can't we find something better to get worked up over?

I'll take sight #13-666-XBOX360 please.

How can people still be missing the point?

And yeah, american soldiers putting christian verses on their weapons isn't a problem in a world where many think we are on a christian crusade against Islam.

Yeah, it might encourage islamic extremism even more but who cares?

Hint: we were being sarcastic, try this:

"It allows the Mujahedeen, the Taliban, al Qaeda and the insurrectionists and jihadists to claim they're being shot by Jesus rifles," he said.

He said coded biblical inscriptions play into the hands of "those who are calling this a Crusade."

 

[Absinthe]

Munson said the issue was being raised by a group that is "not Christian."

Oh, that makes it alright then! Non-christian dissent doesn't count, ****ers.

If you don't see what's wrong with this, imagine yourself as an arab who just had his leg blown off or his family killed by a machine gun brandishing Bible quotes. Stupid shit like this frames conflict in a religious framework which not only insults the local population, but lends credence to extremists who would use this a rallying point for violent jihad.

Implementing this kind of crap shows a severe short-sightedness on the manufacturer's part.

"It allows the Mujahedeen, the Taliban, al Qaeda and the insurrectionists and jihadists to claim they're being shot by Jesus rifles," he said.

'Nuff said.

 

[No Limit]

To be fair Eejit to understand this you need to be at least on a 3rd grade level of thinking.

 

[Absinthe]

Everybody beat me to my ****ing point!

 

[CptStern]

this kinda bugs me because in canada we will move god and country if we find religious shennanigans going on in our secular government. not so with you churchy types in the US and or Ireland.

also **** you jebus. more of you americans should say **** you jebus more often. try it, you might like it. repeat after me; **** you jebus, **** YOU jebus ..jebus, **** u, FFFUUUUUUJEBUUSSSS. HEY CAN I PUT THAT ON MY RIFLE SIGHT? FFFFFUUUUJEBUSDOTCOM

 

[Noodle]

So do you also think we should make sure soldiers aren't allowed to pray as well before getting blown up? After all, we want to makes sure they think only atheists are attacking them. Then they'll lose all hope.

 

[Absinthe]

Because in absence of some kind of religious proclamation, everybody thinks "atheist!" as par for the course, right?

I don't see where exactly you get off comparing a personal prayer with a tool designed to kill others with the personal etchings of Jesus Christ on it. Religious extremists will try to dress up conflict as a war of religions, but there's no need to exacerbate the problem with childish, ignorant stuff like this.

 

[Noodle]

I don't see where exactly you get off comparing a personal prayer with a tool designed to kill others with the personal etchings of Jesus Christ on it. Religious extremists will try to dress up conflict as a war of religions, but there's no need to exacerbate the problem with childish, ignorant stuff like this.

Okay, maybe that wasn't the best analogy.

The etchings are attached to the end of the serial number, and are completely meaningless to anyone that doesn't follow the Bible. Right now, the people exacerbating the problem are the ones complaining about it (i.e. the last people that would get involved with the military) in order to further degrade a war they already despise. The vast majority of soldiers are Christian, and I'm betting it probably does help a good few of them gain something in their mind.

And it is also a bit extreme to think that they will then regard religion as the main reason for the war simply because the gun has an etching on it that they (the bad guys) will never notice seeing as 1. The only terrorists getting even remotely close to one of these guns are probably about to blow themselves up or get blown up, and 2. It is meaningless since they do not follow the Bible, will not be able to distinguish a Biblical verse from the numberings, and probably can't even read the symbols to begin with.

The problem is being exacerbated by the whistle-blowers here, not simplified.

And it seems like the only people trying to dress this up as a religious conflict are atheists. Just sayin'.

 

[No Limit]

So do you also think we should make sure soldiers aren't allowed to pray as well before getting blown up? After all, we want to makes sure they think only atheists are attacking them. Then they'll lose all hope.

Lets force our soldiers to put quotes from the Koran on there, cool?

 

[CptStern]

So do you also think we should make sure soldiers aren't allowed to pray as well before getting blown up?

what the **** is wrong with you? of course we dont want them praying. why the hell would they be praying when they should be shooting back at the people who are trying to blow them up? you're emboldening the terr'ists

 

[Absinthe]

And it seems like the only people trying to dress this up as a religious conflict are atheists. Just sayin'.

Where in the article, or anywhere else for that matter, does it say that such criticism is being spearheaded by atheists?

 

[CptStern]

Okay, maybe that wasn't the best analogy.

The etchings are attached to the end of the serial number, and are completely meaningless to anyone that doesn't follow the Bible.

even more reason to be concerned. the people who WOULD recognise that bible passage might believe they're on a religious crusade or at the very least what they are doing is divine right and or divine approval. you dont want people's motivation for shooting other people be a religious one, right? cuz that would make you like the terr'ists

Right now, the people exacerbating the problem are the ones complaining about it (i.e. the last people that would get involved with the military) in order to further degrade a war they already despise.

hey, you sound like this guy:

"Munson said the issue was being raised by a group that is "not Christian.""

I guess only christian soldiers should have a say

The vast majority of soldiers are Christian, and I'm betting it probably does help a good few of them gain something in their mind.

it doesnt matter if the figure was 110% because:

U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion

And it is also a bit extreme to think that they will then regard religion as the main reason for the war simply because the gun has an etching on it that they (the bad guys) will never notice seeing as 1. The only terrorists getting even remotely close to one of these guns are probably about to blow themselves up or get blown up, and 2. It is meaningless since they do not follow the Bible, will not be able to distinguish a Biblical verse from the numberings, and probably can't even read the symbols to begin with.

you have a lot of "ifs" in there. they'll never notice, they'll never see, they'll never visit halflife2.net/forums and see that people are giving them new motiivation. IF WE JUST LEAVE IT ALONE NO ONE WILL NOTICE THE JESUS SAYINGS ON INSTRUMENTS OF DEATH

no one will notice

The problem is being exacerbated by the whistle-blowers here, not simplified.

those traitorous whistleblowers shamelessly defending the constitution from the insane arms manufacturers who would DARE defend america with their jesus rifles

And it seems like the only people trying to dress this up as a religious conflict are atheists. Just sayin'.

ya so did that guy who makes the gun. he was just sayin' that it only matters to non christians (I'm going to assume there's at least a jew, a muslim, a wiccan and a pastafarian in there somewhere or else he would have said "dirty atheist") so that's ok so long as christians are not offended. one nation under god

 

[Noodle]

Where in the article, or anywhere else for that matter, does it say that such criticism is being spearheaded by atheists?

I was referring mostly to this thread. And in general some of the most ardent activism regarding separation of church and state comes from non-religious people.

what the **** is wrong with you? of course we dont want them praying. why the hell would they be praying when they should be shooting back at the people who are trying to blow them up? you're emboldening the terr'ists

Ummm... I'm not sure of the actually meaning of all that, but here goes...

They're not praying while their shooting, usually. They pray before missions, on a daily basis, etc. A basic understanding of Christianity and common interpretations of prayer is kind of necessary here. Personally, I believe that it serves to help one create a steadier state of mind during times of duress, or whenever one prefers. It's basically a form of meditation.

But I digress. My main point is this: the biggest problem created here was created by the people doing the complaining, not the bad guys' interpretations of something they didn't even know existed before you complained about it. Of course, now your tax dollars will be fed into a hideous bureaucracy of committees and subcommittees and investigative reports and a heaping pile a bullshit that will end up costing as much as the rifle sights, if not more.

 

[No Limit]

But I digress. My main point is this: the biggest problem created here was created by the people doing the complaining, not the bad guys' interpretations of something they didn't even know existed before you complained about it. Of course, now your tax dollars will be fed into a hideous bureaucracy of committees and subcommittees and investigative reports and a heaping pile a bullshit that will end up costing as much as the rifle sights, if not more.

If you kill someone but nobody every finds out the murder never really happened, right?

Do you not understand that some christian asshole in this country alone decided that he was going to put christian symbols on guns used in wars in the middle east? Do you not understand that many people in the middle east that are against us think we are over there fighting a crusade? Does this not reenforce their point for them? You think that's a smart thing to do?

 

[Noodle]

even more reason to be concerned. the people who WOULD recognise that bible passage might believe they're on a religious crusade or at the very least what they are doing is divine right and or divine approval.

Ummm... no.

you have a lot of "ifs" in there. they'll never notice, they'll never see, they'll never visit halflife2.net/forums and see that people are giving them new motiivation. IF WE JUST LEAVE IT ALONE NO ONE WILL NOTICE THE JESUS SAYINGS ON INSTRUMENTS OF DEATH

Ummm... yeah.

those traitorous whistleblowers shamelessly defending the constitution from the insane arms manufacturers who would DARE defend america with their jesus rifles

Ummm... blatant misinterpretation. The Constitution is your ONLY argument here (and a valid one), so stick to that instead going off on other tangents not related to established law regarding the actual impact of the serial numbers.

he was just sayin' that it only matters to non christians (I'm going to assume there's at least a jew, a muslim, a wiccan and a pastafarian in there somewhere or else he would have said "dirty atheist")

Hmmm... proposing an alternate reality where your own arguments would be correct. Not the best strategy, but we'll see how that plays out.

 

[<RJMC>]

well if you think about muslims terrorits say alla akbar when they blow up and stuff like that

so it kind of make things fair in some way

 

[CptStern]

I was referring mostly to this thread. And in general some of the most ardent activism regarding separation of church and state comes from non-religious people.

no shit. obviously reigilous people would want the opposite

Ummm... I'm not sure of the actually meaning of all that, but here goes...

They're not praying while their shooting, usually.

psst I was joking

They pray before missions, on a daily basis, etc. A basic understanding of Christianity and common interpretations of prayer is kind of necessary here. Personally, I believe that it serves to help one create a steadier state of mind during times of duress, or whenever one prefers. It's basically a form of meditation.

except if you're a non believer. you might as well be reciting your grocery list. they should make it that only true believers are soldiers that way when they have a prayer before being blown up everyone will be content that they're soon to meet their maker

"whoopee I'm getting a new set of wings and a halo. hey i wonder if my arms will grow back!"

But I digress. My main point is this: the biggest problem created here was created by the people doing the complaining, not the bad guys' interpretations of something they didn't even know existed before you complained about it.

is there a terrorist complain hotline they could have contacted? I mean goddam it's only a problem when it becomes a problem. but by then it'll be too late. you cant unsee jesus rifles

Of course, now your tax dollars will be fed into a hideous bureaucracy of committees and subcommittees and investigative reports and a heaping pile a bullshit that will end up costing as much as the rifle sights, if not more.

all because someone thought it wise to slap some bible verse on a gun sight. hey they should have thought beforehand. funny how you're not ragging on them. no your ire is reserved for the atheists. they caused this because they dared speak up. you dont value freedom much do you?

 

[Acepilotf14]

well if you think about muslims terrorits say alla akbar when they blow up and stuff like that

so it kind of make things fair in some way

I love you.

 

[Noodle]

Do you not understand that some christian asshole in this country alone decided that he was going to put christian symbols on guns used in wars in the middle east? Do you not understand that many people in the middle east that are against us think we are over there fighting a crusade? Does this not reinforce their point for them? You think that's a smart thing to do?

Listen. I'm not defending the numbers on the weapons. Yeah, it wasn't a great idea. I know that. I'm saying that the reaction to it isn't a good one is you aim to peacefully solve the problem.

Listen. They (the bad guys) are on a religious crusade. I know that, too. Any conflict involved is religious to them, but the numbers that they will most likely never see or decipher are not going to impact their resolve much at all. We're not fighting a crusade, we're retaliating to one.

 

[Noodle]

no shit. obviously reigilous people would want the opposite

Your "the extremists represent the whole" logical fallacy is on par with a 2nd grader. A stupid one.

all because someone thought it wise to slap some bible verse on a gun sight. hey they should have thought beforehand. funny how you're not ragging on them. no your ire is reserved for the atheists. they caused this because they dared speak up. you dont value freedom much do you?

Umm... I am criticizing them as well. Pay attention.

 

[CptStern]

Ummm... no.

why else would they put it there if not motivation? "sniping infidels for jesus"

Ummm... yeah.

...but somebody DID notice ..and a jew no less. so so much for your theory it was atheists. he's also a former military man and comes from a long line of military men:

http://www.pjvoice.com/v32/32300words.aspx

Ummm... blatant misinterpretation.

sure but that's what you seem to be saying. you dont seem to care one bit that what they're doing is unconstitutional. you'd rather blame the whistleblowers for opening their big fat mouths

The Constitution is your ONLY argument here (and a valid one), so stick to that instead going off on other tangents not related to established law regarding the actual impact of the serial numbers.

you're allowed to speculate but we're not? I mean it isnt all that big of a stretch imagining insurgents using this as a justification. I mean the release of pictures out of gitmo did more to embolden the terrorists than any single military offensive. is that what you want?

Hmmm... proposing an alternate reality where your own arguments would be correct. Not the best strategy, but we'll see how that plays out.

it's not an alternate reality. Weinstein is jewish, not an atheist

When I was in the Air Force, I never saw this. I did have a very ugly incident that happened, which is detailed in Chapters 18 through 20 of my book--a very ugly incident of anti-Semitism that happened to me my first semester at the Air Force Academy--but as far as I knew that was an anomaly. That was not the way it was when I was there, but it clearly is the way it is now.

 

[Noodle]

You're not paying attention again.

A basic understanding of Christianity and common interpretations of prayer is kind of necessary here. Personally, I believe that it serves to help one create a steadier state of mind during times of duress, or whenever one prefers. It's basically a form of meditation.

...not motivation. They aren't killing infidels for Jesus.

Again, you are blatantly misinterpreting the entirety of Christianity to fit your arguments needs.

Also, I never said atheists were solely responsible for noticing or complaining. I said that, in general, atheists tend to be more active regarding a seperation of church and state than Christians.


You were using a logical fallacy. I mention the argument regarding the impact of the inscriptions, so you mention the Constitution as your rationality, which is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. I agree with the Const. rationality but not your views on the impact on the war.

As for the alternate reality, I was referring to your biased assumption of bigotry regarding the "dirty atheist" comment, not the presence of other religions.

 

[No Limit]

Also, I never said atheists were solely responsible for noticing or complaining. I said that, in general, atheists tend to be more active regarding a seperation of church and state than Christians.

Christians don't mind having their hand in government eventhough it goes against everything this country stands for? You don't say detective Noodle.

 

[Noodle]

Christians don't mind having their hand in government eventhough it goes against everything this country stands for? You don't say detective Noodle.

Some of them do. Of course, you think all of them do because it helps your debate. I'm Christian (I will probably regret saying that), but I still hate a lot of mainstream Republicans for wanting to impose a theocracy.

My point was that Atheists are more sensitive about it. And not because all Atheists are strict Constitutionalists.

 

[Absinthe]

So...

-Atheists make a fuss out of nothing.
-Making said fuss brings Islamic attention to coded Biblical verses on weaponry.
-Vengeful rage and retaliation!

Atheists are killing our troops.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I think at some point way back there Noodle said "I won't care till the troops are complaining". Well, they are. Weinstein "said many members of his group who currently serve in the military have complained about the markings on the sights".

It seems pretty obvious to me that a standard issue piece of equipment provided for service by the government should not by default have religious symbols on it. It's one thing to say that a knife is shaped a little cruciform and quite another to note actual bible versues printed on every sight. This is a minor but very obvious issue of church/state separation. Regardless of legal culpability, the DoD (I presume?) was in the wrong for accepting these if they knew about it, and if they didn't, the company was in the wrong for deceiving them.

That's enough without the extra publicity concerns. However:

it is also a bit extreme to think that they will then regard religion as the main reason for the war simply because the gun has an etching on it that they (the bad guys) will never notice seeing as 1. The only terrorists getting even remotely close to one of these guns are probably about to blow themselves up or get blown up, and 2. It is meaningless since they do not follow the Bible, will not be able to distinguish a Biblical verse from the numberings, and probably can't even read the symbols to begin with.

Nobody is saying that this alone will change people's opinions, but there's no question that it will only confirm the beliefs of people who think the war is about religion or even that religion is just a big contributor. As someone else mentioned earlier, this is a war in which the CEO of a major private military contractor is a declared Christian fundamentalist who has accused by whistleblowers of viewing himself as a "christian crusader" - a war in which an officer in command of the Falujah operation told journalists that "the enemy has a face. He's called Satan". The context exists, and is not based on nothing. In that context, this doesn't look good at all and is irresponsible.

You're being silly if you think that nobody would have noticed this if not for its publicisation in the media. The publicisation is a result of people noticing it. You're also being silly if you think that no Islamic fundamentalists or sympathisers are familiar with the Bible. And you're being extra silly if you think that the knowledge of it couldn't filter down through fundamentalist culture and become one of those memetic ideas which get passed around as evidence against the Great Satan. "Hey, did you know that x random fact?" "No, really? Ugh. It gets worse every day." "No kidding." We all encounter this conversation in our daily lives.

Still, as I said, that's not the most basic concern. Having explicit and deliberate religious symbols adorn weapons used by the military of a secular government is not okay. And that fact doesn't go away just because this is a minor issue or because the sights work perfectly well.

 

[VirusType2]

The point is Noodle, you want to sweep all of this under the carpet as if it's irrelevant.

Abusing prisoners wouldn't have been a problem for you, if it weren't for those meddling 'whistle-blowers' who exposed it.

You probably voted for Bush. Not an insult, just an observation.

 

[No Limit]

I'm Christian (I will probably regret saying that),

The thing I don't understand is why you would regret saying that? If this is something you deeply believe in and support you should be more than willing to defend it, no? So why the shame?

 

[Noodle]

The point is Noodle, you want to sweep all of this under the carpet as if it's irrelevant.

Abusing prisoners wouldn't have been a problem for you, if it weren't for those meddling 'whistle-blowers' who exposed it.

You probably voted for Bush. Not an insult, just an observation.

The prisoner abuse was a bit more serious... but I understand the point.

And I didn't actually vote then... Frankly, I hated his opponents more than him...

The thing I don't understand is why you would regret saying that? If this is something you deeply believe in and support you should be more than willing to defend it, no? So why the shame?

Not shame, just fear. Mostly of being mistaken for a typical run-of-the-mill fundamentalist. Defending it here would be futile.

Having explicit and deliberate religious symbols adorn weapons used by the military of a secular government is not okay. And that fact doesn't go away just because this is a minor issue or because the sights work perfectly well.

Again, I'm not defending the manufacturer. I honestly believe all these fundamentalist Christians have harmed Christianity more than any politics. I think that if it had been left alone, what are the odds that a terrorist a) captured one of these weapons, and b) consciously distinguish it from just a standard serial number. I know it's possible, but the fuss over it seems like it would only increase the odds unnecessarily.

In retrospect, it would have had to some up anyway since it does get Constitutional.

 

[VirusType2]

To elaborate on that point, it's not okay to torture prisoners of war because it's immoral and illegal. In my opinion as well, it's not okay to just let it slide. It needed to be stopped. The same goes for putting encrypted religious inscriptions on the US government's instruments of war. It needs to be changed, not shrugged off. As a religious person, you know that it's expected to come clean and confess instead of burying wrong doings under the carpet.

 

[Noodle]

True, but the fuss made over still creates problems of its own.

 

[VirusType2]

The problem isn't that it was found out, it was that it was done in the first place. Don't be mad at the whistle-blower for exposing it, blame the people that allowed it to happen.

 

[Noodle]

The problem isn't that it was found out, it was that it was done in the first place. Don't be mad at the whistle-blower for exposing it, blame the people that allowed it to happen.

I am. I'm mad at both. For different reasons. One for creating it, one for exacerbating it.

 

[Absinthe]

Because without whistle blowers, these things would just fix themselves...

 

[Noodle]

You're whistle has made its point. Now it's just damaging my hearing.

 

[VirusType2]

You want to brush it off because you don't have a problem with the Christian scopes. However, other people do have a problem with it, therefore exposing it is important, especially when the US military is acting illegally (albeit an individual is accountable). It's not just something they disagree with.

If the rifle scopes had something from the Koran written on them, I think you would see this differently.

Believe it or not, some US soldiers are Muslims. They are willingly fighting 'the terrorists', not 'the Muslims'.