Socialist society anyone?

[clarky003]

seriously I just wanted to hear all your views on a Socialist society,

the kind of society they have in Star Trek,

idea's and stuff, nothing like.... Omg I hate star trek what are you blabbing about?... I dont want to hear anything along the lines of that, because I just used it as a reference to a socialist world.

Basically, a world where everyone is brought up to play their part to better the whole. rather than an individual/small group capitalist gain for power, or on the other hand a so called 'communist equality'.

people would obtain their position in the world by the amount of effort they put in, but monitary benifits wouldnt exisit the motivation, taught from the day you where born would be to do better, inorder to better and help everyone , whatever their position.

so you get a running cycle of people learning, and helping and driving others to better themselves in order to better others.

I thought through it, and it would help if we found some sort of abundance in resources and lack of fear for death, as they seem to be the main two things at the moment that drive an individual for selfish reason , in the manner that they do.... so I guess we have to change our values really

 

[CyberSh33p]

I'm up for it.

wait a second, I hate everyone and am going to be a criminal. nevermind.

problem with socialism is that what you do and stuff should be for the betterment of everyone, and indeed is, but since people like to see immediate stuff by only making themselves, better it won't work.

and all of today's money is just paper.

 

[PvtRyan]

Hehe, that will never work. It's just the way humans are, they won't do anything that's harder/tougher to do when they don't benefit of it.
I certainly wouldn't want to study 1/3 of my life to be a surgeon and have the exact same life as someone who sweeps the streets.

Communism just doesn't work either, it's a fine idea, but it clashes with human nature itself.

 

[clarky003]

I'm up for it.


and all of today's money is just paper.

I second that,

but it can also be the extension of a mans desires, and ego., dangerous sometimes , so it's the mental effects of money,, not money itself. But this makes it the main stem of the problem.

 

[Dedalus]

Gene Rodenberry wrote Star Trek as a utopia. many people before him have done that too (Sir Thomas More, Aldous Huxley, HG Wells among others).

i think it's a superb idea, and would gladly give up all the money i have today to switch to a society like that. i hate money with a passion, but it helps todays world go round. it just makes me feel ill when i think of what a man has to do in order to keep himself fed, clothed and housed. a society like Star Trek's would be such a dream come true.

but of course, in reality not everyone would agree to it, and people would try to take advantage of it, so corruption would be a very prevelant problem.

there are other societies in Star Trek that have simlarities with 20th century earth. the ferengi for example are extremely money hungry. probably representing most capitalist countries. then you've got the obedient and radical Romulans/Klingons. then you've got the benevolent and enlightened Vulcans. in Star Trek, Humanity is seen as the middle ground. it still has it's foot in it's past, but has it's good foot forward for the future.

anyway, nice post clarky, makes a change


EDIT: that's "makes a change" directed at the forum not you clarky just read how that might be interpreted otherwise

 

[clarky003]

Gene Rodenberry wrote Star Trek as a utopia. many people before him have done that too (Sir Thomas More, Aldous Huxley, HG Wells among others).

i think it's a superb idea, and would gladly give up all the money i have today to switch to a society like that. i hate money with a passion, but it helps todays world go round. it just makes me feel ill when i think of what a man has to do in order to keep himself fed, clothed and housed. a society like Star Trek's would be such a dream come true.

but of course, in reality not everyone would agree to it, and people would try to take advantage of it, so corruption would be a very prevelant problem.

there are other societies in Star Trek that have simlarities with 20th century earth. the ferengi for example are extremely money hungry. probably representing most capitalist countries. then you've got the obedient and radical Romulans/Klingons. then you've got the benevolent and enlightened Vulcans. in Star Trek, Humanity is seen as the middle ground. it still has it's foot in it's past, but has it's good foot forward for the future.

anyway, nice post clarky, makes a change

thanks ,, but seriously I think maybe one day it could work. If everyone realises just what we could accomplish if we lived like that, everyone sacrifices there selfish desires, to impress or whatever, in order to better human kind's existence and overall population. doesnt mean being emotionless.. just more rational.

 

[Dedalus]

Hehe, that will never work. It's just the way humans are, they won't do anything that's harder/tougher to do when they don't benefit of it.
I certainly wouldn't want to study 1/3 of my life to be a surgeon and have the exact same life as someone who sweeps the streets.

Communism just doesn't work either, it's a fine idea, but it clashes with human nature itself.

well, it depends which way you want to go with that. are you dropping your standards to be as lowly as a street sweeper, or is the street sweeper's life and living standards brought up to an acceptable level?

before this can happen, a lot of people either need to A. **** off and die (not aimed at you pvtryan ) or B. they need to evolve their thinking. A will probably be accomplished by some sort of war, and i don't think B will ever happen. people love their bits of paper and bank balances too much.

 

[Direwolf]

I doubt it would ever really function outside of a small voluntary community. Its just to contrary to human nature.

 

[CptStern]

it just makes me feel ill when i think of what a man has to do in order to keep himself fed, clothed and housed. a society like Star Trek's would be such a dream come true.

it makes me ill to think someone spending more money on a pair of shoes than some families make in a month. There are a few women at the office who own 40 pairs of shoes ...40!!! such waste ...when I say to them that they spend more on shoes than some families do on food they look at me with this slightly idiotic expression on their faces.

 

[clarky003]

well, it depends which way you want to go with that. are you dropping your standards to be as lowly as a street sweeper, or is the street sweeper's life and living standards brought up to an acceptable level?

before this can happen, a lot of people either need to A. **** off and die (not aimed at you pvtryan ) or B. they need to evolve their thinking. A will probably be accomplished by some sort of war, and i don't think B will ever happen. people love their bits of paper and bank balances too much.

what if bits of paper and bank balances dont truely matter at some stage, anymore, and people realise how materialistic and superficial that all is

more likely, wouldnt an abundant energy source help.. everything would be less value, energy is the key, if energy is easy to come by, everything can be made easier. without worry of running out.

it would change third world countries , and balance the worlds structure if it was used right.

 

[KagePrototype]

Human nature wouldn't allow it.

 

[clarky003]

Human nature wouldn't allow it.

I guess, but humans are evolving all the time,, well atleast some of us,,

but doesnt stuborn thinking like that help towards it never happening anyway

 

[KagePrototype]

I guess, but humans are evolving all the time,, well atleast some of us,,

but doesnt stuborn thinking like that help towards it never happening anyway

It's human nature to be stubborn.

 

[Dedalus]

yeah, an abundance of energy would probably solve a few things, but would almost definitely create even more. it'll be regulated and controlled by (guess who) corporations/governments etc. although, if it turns out to be dirt cheap (packet-of-crisps-and-a-mars-bar type of cheap), then there should be no problem in third world countries giving themselves a nice little investment.

having said that i find it really hard to imagine anyone willing to stand up and be counted like that. it's just too 'against the grain' for most people (and i'm referring to the lawmakers rather than the populace). generally, the denizens of a country are quicker to catch on than their leadership is, or that's how it seems most of the time. mainly it's to do with red tape and legislature, and everything has to be bullet proof and without loop holes before the government can green light anything.

anyway sidetracked there. but in all honesty, i think a war will be our only saviour as a race. probably ties in to the 'smack your children' thread. if your kids do wrong will you slap them to teach them? well, some kids learn without needing to be smacked. but i think humanity needs a huge smack, as it's the only way people will learn. sorry to sound like a miser but that's the way it is.

 

[ComradeBadger]

Communism doesn't work becase it's based on a 19th centuary view of the world where labour is a country's main source of income. It's not the case anymore. It's imagination.

 

[clarky003]

yeah, an abundance of energy would probably solve a few things, but would almost definitely create even more. it'll be regulated and controlled by (guess who) corporations/governments etc. although, if it turns out to be dirt cheap (packet-of-crisps-and-a-mars-bar type of cheap), then there should be no problem in third world countries giving themselves a nice little investment.

having said that i find it really hard to imagine anyone willing to stand up and be counted like that. it's just too 'against the grain' for most people (and i'm referring to the lawmakers rather than the populace). generally, the denizens of a country are quicker to catch on than their leadership is, or that's how it seems most of the time. mainly it's to do with red tape and legislature, and everything has to be bullet proof and without loop holes before the government can green light anything.

anyway sidetracked there. but in all honesty, i think a war will be our only saviour as a race. probably ties in to the 'smack your children' thread. if your kids do wrong will you slap them to teach them? well, some kids learn without needing to be smacked. but i think humanity needs a huge smack, as it's the only way people will learn. sorry to sound like a miser but that's the way it is.

well thats the reality behind it unfortunately,, lets just keep thinking outside the box

 

[CyberSh33p]

Communism doesn't work becase it's based on a 19th centuary view of the world where labour is a country's main source of income. It's not the case anymore. It's imagination.

indeed, for money is a figment of the imagination. it isn't even based off gold anymore, its literaly just paper

someone will realize this one day and then WWIII starts.

 

[clarky003]

indeed, for money is a figment of the imagination. it isn't even based off gold anymore, its literaly just paper

someone will realize this one day and then WWIII starts.

isnt that illegal,, if the money in circulation exceeds the value of gold deposited in banks, and fort knox, and stuff :rolling:

 

[CyberSh33p]

I guess not, as its based solely on faith now. theres no backing :|

 

[clarky003]

I guess not, as its based solely on faith now. theres no backing :|

surely that cant be right still, LOL, so your saying my money costs someting because someone says it does..?,, although essentially it could be worthless. lol

I swear its in the law somewhere that currency in circulation cant exceed the gold in the banks

 

[h00dlum]

Sweden is like that...i think anyway...we are socialists right now, i think. Im not into politics..

 

[Kangy]

Yeah, I wouldn't really go with a Socialism.

To be straight, I don't do heck for anyone else, unless I at least have some sort of opinion about them.

 

[Dedalus]

if you explicitly call it 'socialist' then no-one is gonna be up for it obviously. a blend of a number of systems would be a lot better. in Star Trek they work to a single purpose, exploring space together. we'd need a single justifyable purpose.

just don't go round calling it a socialist society, cos that scares everyone

 

[FictiousWill]

I swear its in the law somewhere that currency in circulation cant exceed the gold in the banks

It was like that until about a hundred years ago. Then everybody dropped the "gold standard" and "silver standard". Now your money is just a promise. Try going to a bank and excanging your money for gold. You can't. You have to purchase it like any other commodity.


The only reason why capitalism works is everybody gets to rip everybody else off ! If we all rip each other off, we come out equal and ahead! It sounds crazy, but it works. Don't get me wrong, there's still huge differences in quality of life for members of a capitalist society, but capitalist society problems can't hold a candle to communist/socialist countries. The world gave that a try and failed. Just some countries have yet to figure that out.

 

[CrazyHarij]

Omg I hate star trek what are you blabbing about?

Communism is an utopia but it doesn't work together with man, simple as that.

 

[clarky003]

Sweden is like that...i think anyway...we are socialists right now, i think. Im not into politics..

Parts of Switzerland are similar

ill quote this from a book,

' situated near Bern in the little town of Linden, In switzerland, there is a spiritual community, Methernitha, where one of the most successful free energy converters is in use,'

'The convereter which was demonstrated, and possibly one or two others, have been in operation since 1982, it was seen to be providing some of the electrical power to heat a greenhouse of 5500 square feet, at an altitiude of 2600 feet, and in winter, too. Its power output is in the order of 3-4 kilowatts at 230 volts DC.'

the Swiss ML converter consists of two seperate contrarotating acrylic disc's that rotate with a very small gap between them, the electro-static potential generated from this rotation is stored, and looped back into the machine for driving the rotational movement, and aparently produces more energy out than put in, (somehow tapping into a quantum vaccum source) the device subsequently makes enough energy to keep going, and allows for extra energy to go out for use in the community.

people/energy inspectors have visited the site to inspect the claims and leaked info on the society's main source of power, and have found the device perplexing to known science.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

semi-socialism imo is the best form of government there is. Communism dosent work, humans are too Darwinistic for it to work, Communism always eventually = totalatarianism. Socialism is flawed to. But take certain socialist aspects and ad them to capatalism and you have a good balance. Like Harij so perfeclty said Communism = Utopia, Utopias = fiction.

 

[clarky003]

semi-socialism imo is the best form of government there is. Communism dosent work, humans are too Darwinistic for it to work, Communism always eventually = totalatarianism. Socialism is flawed to. But take certain socialist aspects and ad them to capatalism and you have a good balance. Like Harij so perfeclty said Communism = Utopia, Utopias = fiction.

eutopia's are only fiction nowdays because we fail to aknowlege past mistakes, inertia of modern thought is the main cause, capitalism potenitally corrupts aswell, what's the matter with everyone being content and happy? impossible? not if everyone is working towards betterment of their own kind, if they are taught those values from birth , it may give real meaning to many peoples lives.

Its a strange concept yes, you got to wrap your head around it and say, yes we would be all better off that way. we make it out like theres always someone who deserves more because they are on TV or somthing or they invented something that allows us to eat cake without using our hands , but they are no less human than anyone..

everyone can do their part, and everyone gets rewarded , more in a spirtual way than anything eles.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

eutopia's are only fiction nowdays because we fail to aknowlege past mistakes, inertia of modern thought is the main cause, capitalism potenitally corrupts aswell, what's the matter with everyone being content and happy? impossible? not if everyone is working towards betterment of their own kind.

Its a strange concept yes, you got to wrap your head around it and say, yes we would be all better off that way. we make it out like theres always someone who deserves more because they are on TV or somthing or they invented something that allows us to eat cake without using our hands , but they are no less human than anyone..

everyone can do their part, and everyone gets rewarded , more in a spirtual way than anything eles.

Anyone that knows a thing or two about human nature would agree that eutopias are pretty much impossible. But I admit that it would be amazing to see one work.. maybe after years and years of evolution we will be able to accomplish somthing like a true communist state.

 

[ShadowFox]

No, a utopia is impossible.. because every human has a different idea of utopia and what your utopia is, probably isn't what my utopia is.

Probably the scariest thing about this thread is the fact that todays youth learns their politics from a TV show.

 

[KagePrototype]

eutopia's are only fiction because we fail to aknowlege past mistakes, what's the matter with everyone being content and happy? impossible? not if everyone is working towards betterment its a strange concept yes, you got to wrap your head around it and say, yes we would be all better off that way. we make it out like theres always someone who deserves more because they are on TV or somthing or they invented something that allows us to eat cake without using our hands , but they are no less human than anyone..

everyone can do their part, and everyone gets rewarded , more in a spirtual way than anything eles.

The problem isn't getting your head around it, it just goes against nature. There will always be someone who will want more power over others, or will want to hurt others etc., it's just a natural part of being human. You're right, we would be better off if we all strive towards a utopia. But this sort of idealist thinking doesn't make it possible. When discussing society, you have to be realistic, otherwise you're just talking out of your arse. So yeah, it would be brilliant for everyone if we could work towards bettering ourselves and soceity in hopes of acheiving a utopia. It's just that the very idea of a utopia goes against human nature, and what people are like.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

No, a utopia is impossible.. because every human has a different idea of utopia and what your utopia is, probably isn't what my utopia is.

Probably the scariest thing about this thread is the fact that todays youth learns their politics from a TV show.

I have learned little to nothing about politics from television actually.

 

[Dedalus]

Probably the scariest thing about this thread is the fact that todays youth learns their politics from a TV show.

where did you pull that one from? just seems like a really 'off' comment to make.

i personally don't watch tv. i prefer books and making my own damn mind up, which is what i assume clarky and others do too.

 

[clarky003]

No, a utopia is impossible.. because every human has a different idea of utopia and what your utopia is, probably isn't what my utopia is.

Probably the scariest thing about this thread is the fact that todays youth learns their politics from a TV show.

I wouldnt pass off eutopia's as impossible, who knows what will happen , and what the human race will become in the unforseable future.

Impossible is too harsh a word. I suppose you could get close If everyone was in the right state of mind, giving people a purpose would help, we are all here for our own purpose, ? thats thinking too small sometimes, we are all here for everyone, like a giant support unit, that has the ability to make you proud to be a human being.

 

[ShadowFox]

I wouldnt pass off eutopia's as impossible, who knows what will happen , and what the human race will become in the unforseable future.

Impossible is too harsh a word. I suppose you could get close If everyone was in the right state of mind.

Yes, it could be possible in the future. Personally the only way I can see a utopia working is with a hive-mind type species. Let's face it, free will is the anti-utopia.

The best thing we can work towards is making as many people as possible happy. That is what government should be about.

 

[Goobers]

The best thing we can work towards is making as many people as possible happy. That is what government should be about.

*Should* be about, yes. Shame that isn't the reality. :|

 

[clarky003]

Yes, it could be possible in the future. Personally the only way I can see a utopia working is with a hive-mind type species. Let's face it, free will is the anti-utopia.

The best thing we can work towards is making as many people as possible happy. That is what government should be about.

free will would still exists, you can go for walks, drive around, travel places, own what you need, but you can take free will too far..

what dictates free will...? buying a mansion, becoming rich and replenishing your ego so the rest of your life is easy. While others suffer around you ... thats kind of neglecting your right as a human, everyone is individual, but we are in the same boat at the end of the day.

I actually dispise the idea of growing up in this world, seemingly more likely just to better myself, in order to work for my life, in order to fill another mans wallet, who gets paid loads more, because he's more manipulative at buisness than I am.

 

[ShadowFox]

*Should* be about, yes. Shame that isn't the reality. :|

That is the problem. Most governments start off well enough, but eventually they all degenerate into folks who hold their own interests above those of the people.

 

[clarky003]

That is the problem. Most governments start off well enough, but eventually they all degenerate into folks who hold their own interests above those of the people.

and that is a product of capitalist structure

 

[Goobers]

Its all about human nature tho, isn't it- for a Utopia to succede, *everyone* has to want it, and if that were the case, then everyone would put the needs of others before themselves