Some thoughts on God

[Prince of China]

Maybe suffering is really a good thing...in a different, alternate universe!
:O

 

[Voodoo_Chile]

Thats rather ominous...

On a side note, there are quite a few really odd threads today. Especially Sh4mpo0's

Thank you but I have been saying on multiply threads to anyone who will listen(Which is no one )that I think we are in the calm before some type of meterlogical event(A.k.a Storm but I didnt want to be cliched)Give it 2-5 years and there will be major changes to the world.

 

[spookymooky]

I'd like to see a simpson-esque alien invasion the day after we declare world peace and destroy all weaponry. Maybe thats whats coming...

 

[Neutrino]

Thank you but I have been saying on multiply threads to anyone who will listen(Which is no one )that I think we are in the calm before some type of meterlogical event(A.k.a Storm but I didnt want to be cliched)Give it 2-5 years and there will be major changes to the world.

Heh, some people always say there's going to be major changes and doom just around the bend.

 

[Asus]

Well, God is the creator. He determined what is right and wrong. He gave us the ability to judge right and wrong. If things were created by chance or a proccess, you don't get a message or meaning out of it. Waves on the beach can create patterns in the sand but if you found "Hello" spelled in the sand you would know that someone was behind it. It doesn't add up without God.

God created us and my 'meaning' in life is to know God, to have a relation ship with Him. I guess you could say it's subjective.

If God knew his creation would veer off course then why did he even create us at all? Because he loved us. Because he wanted us to be with Him. Life can be a struggle but with Him many get through their day with ease. It's through Him and life is worth living.

 

[Voodoo_Chile]

I know,but I have neither evidence nor any reason really.Its just I feel(And there is the important word of the sentance)that something is gonna happen.Sadly I have no idea what that is but I cant fecking wait.

 

[Shuzer]

Riddle me this: How can someone perfect create imperfection?

I guess you missed my post.

God created humans in a perfect state. They did not need sustinance, they would live forever, they could do no evil. However, once Satan tempted them, they broke God's one rule. The curse of this world (disease, death, pain, suffering, etc etc) were a direct result of man's disobedience, and as such, was a punishment.

 

[Matthias]

Without God, life would be meaningless.

I disagree, life can have a purpose without a creator. We may have appeared by chance, the purpose of life could be to procreate.

 

[Voodoo_Chile]

I guess you missed my post.

God created humans in a perfect state. They did not need sustinance, they would live forever, they could do no evil. However, once Satan tempted them, they broke God's one rule. The curse of this world (disease, death, pain, suffering, etc etc) were a direct result of man's disobedience, and as such, was a punishment.

Pandorra's box?

(Seems like a similar story)

 

[Asus]

I guess you missed my post.

God created humans in a perfect state. They did not need sustinance, they would live forever, they could do no evil. However, once Satan tempted them, they broke God's one rule. The curse of this world (disease, death, pain, suffering, etc etc) were a direct result of man's disobedience, and as such, was a punishment.

Googled and found a link on the subject which we speak. Link
Google is surprising.

Seriously though, I only find that this is a God which cannot be imagined. It isn't a religion or 'god' that we would think up. It isn't what we would like or what you think we would desire.

 

[OCybrManO]

Riddle me this: How can someone perfect create imperfection?

In the same way that I can degenerate from typing like this to tyapign liak tish. Maybe God just mashed the keyboard and, with a bit of cleaning up (so that we were symmetric), we were the result.

The questions I have involve the properties of omniscience and omnipotence.

Many religions say both that God knows everything and that people have free will... yet, knowing what we are going to do in the future (part of knowing "everything") means that the future is on a fixed path... and, thus, that we have no free will. This also means that even before creating us God already knew what would happen... which, if you believe in Hell, means that God's actions during our creation (and not the will of the person) is the deciding factor in who goes to Hell and who goes to Heaven. No events can occur that he did not forsee. If so, why can God get make billions of people suffer and still be said to be free of sin? ... because he made the rules?

Then, there's the "Hamburger Paradox" in which God has to be able to make a burger so big that even He can't eat it... but at the same time He has to be able to eat absolutely anything. Omnipotence is inherently contradictory. Omnipotence also contradicts omniscience. By definition of being omnipotent, you must be able to do some action of which there is no predictable outcome... but by definition of being omniscient, you must know absolutely everything.

Then, there's the relation between omnipotence and creationism. People rationalize making us feel pain by saying "Well, without bad things we would be numb to the joy of good things." That's only because God made us that way. If he's omnipotent he could have theoretically made us feel prefectly happy all the time without the feeling ever diminishing.

... and on the view of God vs Satan:

God is said to be omnipotent and omniscient (if you ignore the above statments). How does Satan compete with that? If Satan has finite powers God automatically wins because he is infinitely more powerful (infinity / any finite number = infinity). Satan could have been dealt with in an instant if that was true. For Satan to be any trouble whatsoever he would have to be equally and infinitely powerful. There cannot be two omnipotent beings that are in a state of conflict... because anything one does, the other has the power to stop it... but, at the same time, the attack should (since the attacker can do anything) be more powerful than even their enemy can handle. It's another case of contradiction.

 

[Voodoo_Chile]

... and on the view of God vs Satan:

God is said to be omnipotent and omniscient (if you ignore the above statments). How does Satan compete with that? If Satan has finite powers God automatically wins because he is infinitely more powerful (infinity / any finite number = infinity). Satan could have been dealt with in an instant if that was true. For Satan to be any trouble whatsoever he would have to be equally and infinitely powerful. There cannot be two omnipotent beings that are in a state of conflict... because anything one does, the other has the power to stop it... but, at the same time, the attack should (since the attacker can do anything) be more powerful than even their enemy can handle. It's another case of contradiction.

You know,We never got Satans side of the Argument,all the books are writen from God's point of view.Also Since this is true then it stands to reason that the old Addage of "History is Written by the Victor" holds true also.

 

[Neutrino]

God created us and my 'meaning' in life is to know God, to have a relation ship with Him. I guess you could say it's subjective.

It's still completely subjective though. I don't believe in any god, yet my life has meaning to me.

I guess you missed my post.

God created humans in a perfect state. They did not need sustinance, they would live forever, they could do no evil. However, once Satan tempted them, they broke God's one rule. The curse of this world (disease, death, pain, suffering, etc etc) were a direct result of man's disobedience, and as such, was a punishment.

But if they fell to temptation then they were not perfect in the first place.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

God created humans in a perfect state. They did not need sustinance, they would live forever, they could do no evil. However, once Satan tempted them, they broke God's one rule. The curse of this world (disease, death, pain, suffering, etc etc) were a direct result of man's disobedience, and as such, was a punishment.

If god were perfect, and he intended to build perfect people, why did he give them the capacity to be disobedient?

But if they fell to temptation then they were not perfect in the first place.

Dammit, stop posting first!

 

[johnnypoopoopant]

whoa that scrabble thing was weird and cool at the same time

 

[poseyjmac]

(assuming god exists as he is in the bible)

im interested to see a christian reply to what im about to say:

now free-will is very valuable. the god of the bible retains it well in the world, since we are able to do whatever we want. good. i like free-will.

BUT why did god make such a dire end consequence(being hell) if you don't convert? a place of horrible eternal suffering with satan and his demons?

how about this idea: why not kill off satan and the demons after the world ends, and make a place thats nowhere NEAR as good as heaven, still separated from god, but no one is suffering, kinda like another earth? that way people will still regret not going to heaven PLUS there won't be as many christians that convert to christianity based on fear. which leads them to hell anyways.

see the problem with threatening people with hell is, many people will make the decision to follow god out of fear alone. god could have eliminated this unneeded fear and future horrible suffering, by just taking my idea above. it wouldn't violate anything in the bible, it wouldn't violate free-will. now i ask you christians, why isn't this a better idea?

 

[Shuzer]

If god were perfect, and he intended to build perfect people, why did he give them the capacity to be disobedient?



Dammit, stop posting first!

I can say as much as Satan tempted Eve.. but, why God allowed that, I can't tell you.

 

[Bad^Hat]

http://www.400monkeys.com/God/index.html

 

[Phisionary]

http://www.400monkeys.com/God/index.html

I don't know about everyone else, but I find that hilarious!

Fine, I'll make an on-topic comment.....

If God's goal was to make us perfect, why would it matter if we had free will? Just because we have it, and want to justify ourselves as being created as we are with the intent of perfection?
Perhaps we should consider that free-will itself is our corruption?
What free will had we in the garden of eden? Live in the garden; not much free will there. God tells you not to pick the fruit. You do anyway. You failed the test. You have free will. Oh well.


I'm just musing. This isn't my belief system.

Without God, life would be meaningless.

Yeah, I think a lot of people would disagree with you. Life is meaning. For many, it's all the meaning they need.

 

[Matthias]

God is said to be omnipotent and omniscient (if you ignore the above statments). How does Satan compete with that? If Satan has finite powers God automatically wins because he is infinitely more powerful (infinity / any finite number = infinity). Satan could have been dealt with in an instant if that was true. For Satan to be any trouble whatsoever he would have to be equally and infinitely powerful. There cannot be two omnipotent beings that are in a state of conflict... because anything one does, the other has the power to stop it... but, at the same time, the attack should (since the attacker can do anything) be more powerful than even their enemy can handle. It's another case of contradiction.

Thst's another good argument as to why God - or anyone for that matter - cannot be omnipotent. And if the bible was wrong on that account...

"Could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?" -- Homer Simpson

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

I would say spooky, that to be perfect is to have the ability to be imperfect. If God hadn't left a choice for human beings to become imperfect, then they would have actually been less than perfect.
A person that decides to do good, after experiencing the world...is far better, and perhaps closer to perfection, than a person who simply does not know the concept of "right" and "wrong".

 

[Korgoth]

Pain is perfection. If we were allowed to roam this Earth and live our lives with no pain or suffering, the world wouldn't be perfect, it would be chaos.

Just for example. Say no physical pain existed. A child is playing outside and jumps off a porch and lands face first on the ground. No pain, no consequence. So the child goes to the over pass and jumps off landing face first on the concrete below killing theirselve because it didn't hurt before and they didn't think it would hurt this time. But the impact killed them.

If there were no suffering, how could we differentiate good from evil? Wrong from right? If we kill an innocent person, or we lose a loved one we should suffer, we should feel bad and wrong for what has happened. Therefore, we know it was wrong and it won't happen again. But without pain and emotional suffering what is to keep us from running amuck on this planet? I mean we nearly do anyway, imagine if there were absolutely no morals.

 

[poseyjmac]

(assuming god exists as he is in the bible)

im interested to see a christian reply to what im about to say:

now free-will is very valuable. the god of the bible retains it well in the world, since we are able to do whatever we want. good. i like free-will.

BUT why did god make such a dire end consequence(being hell) if you don't convert? a place of horrible eternal suffering with satan and his demons?

how about this idea: why not kill off satan and the demons after the world ends, and make a place thats nowhere NEAR as good as heaven, still separated from god, but no one is suffering, kinda like another earth? that way people will still regret not going to heaven PLUS there won't be as many christians that convert to christianity based on fear. which leads them to hell anyways.

see the problem with threatening people with hell is, many people will make the decision to follow god out of fear alone. god could have eliminated this unneeded fear and future horrible suffering, by just taking my idea above. it wouldn't violate anything in the bible, it wouldn't violate free-will. now i ask you christians, why isn't this a better idea?

*twiddles thumbs* :dork:

 

[poseyjmac]

If there were no suffering, how could we differentiate good from evil? Wrong from right? If we kill an innocent person, or we lose a loved one we should suffer, we should feel bad and wrong for what has happened. Therefore, we know it was wrong and it won't happen again. But without pain and emotional suffering what is to keep us from running amuck on this planet? I mean we nearly do anyway, imagine if there were absolutely no morals.

its the contrast that matters. why not just have good, and really really good? people having it good will still wish they could have it really really good.

 

[Korgoth]

Well what about the idea of purgatory? Its not a place of suffering, but it isn't heaven either...

There is a good reason for hell if you think about it. Why would you promise everyone eternal bliss no matter what? What would be the purpose of life, if all you had to do was commit suicide as soon as you could and go to heave? There wouldn't be humans everyone would try to die. We are here to experience the gift that God has given us. We choose to live our lives however we wish, we have free will to do this. But our free will can get us in trouble, not God's fault. If we didn't have consequences for our actions, then our lives would be meaningless.

 

[PvtRyan]

Look at another side of imperfection, not the pain/suffering side, but biological imperfection, that has bugger all to do with devine punishment.
Biological imperfection as in redundant organs, hairloss (caused by the sensitivity of the hair follicles to a certain testosterone-like hormone) or junk DNA. Why would a perfect being create such insignificant imperfections?

 

[Korgoth]

I still say just because God is perfect doesn't mean we have to be... With the logic that God is perfect so we should be to, then that means everything we create should be perfect.

But perfection isn't the point of our existence. The struggle of life is why we are here. We are here to do/learn/love and move on. If we were perfect beings, how could we truly experience all life has to offer?

So in that repect, God is perfect, and he created the perfect life for us to lead on with.

 

[spookymooky]

So, you many of you guys seem to say this argument is moot because our perfect and loving God spent a half-assed time on us.

 

[CptStern]

"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."
Emo Philips.

"Thank God I'm an atheist."
Luis Bunuel.

"If absolute power corrupts absolutely, where does that leave God?"
George Deacon.


scariest quote:

"George Bush was not elected by a majority of the voters in the United States. He was appointed by God." —Lt. Gen. William Boykin, the defense undersecretary in charge of hunting down top terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan

 

[Asus]

You ask questions about the same things yet I don't think you read my link I posted earlier.

 

[poseyjmac]

Well what about the idea of purgatory? Its not a place of suffering, but it isn't heaven either...

There is a good reason for hell if you think about it. Why would you promise everyone eternal bliss no matter what? What would be the purpose of life, if all you had to do was commit suicide as soon as you could and go to heave? There wouldn't be humans everyone would try to die. We are here to experience the gift that God has given us. We choose to live our lives however we wish, we have free will to do this. But our free will can get us in trouble, not God's fault. If we didn't have consequences for our actions, then our lives would be meaningless.

read my big quote above that everyone is seeming to ignore.

 

[spookymooky]

Sorry, Asus, to me your site says a whole lotta nothing. Much of what there is is, quite frankly, wrong. For instance: "We are different from all other animals on our planet - a fact that has no scientific or evolutionary explanation.16"

Humans are no different from other animals in any judgable way.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Humans are no different from other animals in any judgable way.

Well, except being somewhat smarter. But dolphins might give us a run for our money there.

Still, there really isn't much difference at all.

 

[spookymooky]

Well, except being somewhat smarter. But dolphins might give us a run for our money there.

Still, there really isn't much difference at all.

Douglas Adams told me were the third smartest.

 

[Matthias]

"We are different from all other animals on our planet - a fact that has no scientific or evolutionary explanation.16"

We are animals, just more intelligent (on average!). some animals communicate, use tools, build houses etc. Our DNA is something like 1% different from most mammals and 5% different from an amoeba.

The site doesn't answer the question I posted earlier, if God is omnipotent, why couldn't he create a world where everyone had free will and there was no suffering?

 

[Apos]

Well, God is the creator. He determined what is right and wrong.

If that were true, then right and wrong would arbitrary and hence meaningless.

If things were created by chance or a proccess, you don't get a message or meaning out of it.

Observed meaning is always subjective. You are talking about _intended_ meaning, which requires an intender.

Waves on the beach can create patterns in the sand but if you found "Hello" spelled in the sand you would know that someone was behind it. It doesn't add up without God.

It is precisely because there is no equivalent to "Hello" on the beach in the natural world that this argument fails.

God created us and my 'meaning' in life is to know God, to have a relation ship with Him. I guess you could say it's subjective.

Yes. If there is a god that has a purpose for you, that doesn't make your life meaningful TO YOU. It is only meaningful to to you if you find it meaningful.

Speaking of "meaning" without specifying "to whom" is an incomplete thought. Things don't objectively "mean"... someone has to mean them or find meaning in them.

 

[spookymooky]

Heres another moot idea on that site: The site states that if you wanted a computer that loved you, you wouldnt just program it to say "I love you" everytime it boots up.

True, then it wouldnt love me. But, if computers could love, I could program it to feel love towards me all the time.

 

[TinyKilbasa]

If God made us perfect, why would we need him? He created us as imperfect beings so that we could turn to him when we're having problems!

 

[Lil' Timmy]

If God made us perfect, why would we need him? He created us as imperfect beings so that we could turn to him when we're having problems!

an equally likely (i.e. fanciful) possibility to the 'simply for a laugh' theory.

 

[CyberSh33p]

I find it silly personally that people base their entire lives and everything they do off of a book.

Also, what did people do before the bible was written? did everyone go to hell, since they weren't practicing the religion as modern sects say you must?

I can understand deism however, because I guess the chance that a hgher being created the universe is just about as probable as a singularity in nothingness randomly exploding.