Some thoughts on God

[Apos]

There is really a difference between joyful and happy. Happy is temporary. I don't see too many athiests who can be at peace when something terrible happens in their life or when that thing that makes them happy goes away.

Boy, that's pretty darn insulting. Frankly, I've never seen that religious people are any better able to deal with loss or tragedy than non-believers.

 

[Apos]

Well, what science really falls short is it's dependance on emprirical methods.

It falls short ON PURPOSE: because it is a method for actually determining truth, not just blindly assuming it. That it is limited and skeptical is the very reason it's so effective.

God is hope, life, love. It is impossible to invision rape, murder, etc as morrally good.

If that's so, then God's opinion or will make no difference, and these things would be wrong irregardless of whether or not God existed.

 

[qckbeam]

There is really a difference between joyful and happy. Happy is temporary. I don't see too many athiests who can be at peace when something terrible happens in their life or when that thing that makes them happy goes away.

Hi there! Let me introduce myself. I'm a card-carrying atheist, and despite the fact that the past few months of my life have been filled with tragedy, I haven't had to fall on that old crutch called "religion" for comfort. Imagine that? Sure is something isn't it? We don't all need to believe in god and an after-life to keep ourselves sane and happy, or excuse me, joyful. I'm at peace with everything in life right about now, no matter how unfair or sad it may all seem to be. It's really pretty easy to do once you let go of it all. Just accept things, and move on because life is going to, whether you like it or not.

 

[Tr0n]

I believe in god...and ya know what I don't have to prove myself to anyone, because when it comes down to it...it's what I believe is what matters most and no one can change that.

 

[Asus]

Boy, that's pretty darn insulting. Frankly, I've never seen that religious people are any better able to deal with loss or tragedy than non-believers.

I didn't mean for that to be insulting. I was trying to put the difference into words that I thought would convey it better.

I was once an atheist. I know exactly what it's like. All I'm saying is that you really don't know the other side.

 

[qckbeam]

All I'm saying is that you really don't know the other side.

What do you mean by the "other side"?

 

[Neutrino]

I didn't mean for that to be insulting. I was trying to put the difference into words that I thought would convey it better.

I was once an atheist. I know exactly what it's like. All I'm saying is that you really don't know the other side.

Just because you were once atheist doesn't mean you know what it is like for all atheists or agnostics by any means. Just being in the same belief group as someone else doens't really give you any insight into what exactly they feel and some atheists are depressed. Some atheists are eternal optimists. Some religious people are depressed and some are eternal optimists. People don't fit very well into labels. Everyone is very different and experiences things differently.

 

[poseyjmac]

I believe in god...and ya know what I don't have to prove myself to anyone, because when it comes down to it...it's what I believe is what matters most and no one can change that.

have you experienced anything supernatural while believing in god?

 

[Lil' Timmy]

I was once an atheist. I know exactly what it's like. All I'm saying is that you really don't know the other side.

i just want to reiterate on neutrino's point and make another point of my own. all you 'know' from your experience is what is is like for you to have been an atheist. you know nothing of what anyone else experiences, as neutrino pointed out. this is just simple logic.

that said, the same is true for everyone else as well. i don't know that you don't have a personal relationship with "God". i can't know that at all. i can form beliefs based on what seems likely to me. i tend to be as logical as i can when thinking about such things. and that thought has led me to a stance of 'lazy atheism'. from what i've seen, i don't know if there is a god (probably not though), nor do i care.

everything you're saying may very well be completely accurate. even though neutrino has pointed out the illogic of what appears to be your stance, i'm open to the possibility that this type of 'revelation' that some theists refer to uses a non-logical process to confer knowledge. as absurd as that sounds, i can't dismiss it.

let me add, for me, if a god exists that expects people to abandon logic and reason to 'see' it, then that's not a god i'm interested in knowing anyway. if hell is in my future, so be it, i won't respect such a capricious god. just my opinion.

 

[Apos]

I didn't mean for that to be insulting.

Of course you did: it cannot help BUT be insulting. It's like walking up to someone, telling them that they are ugly, and then telling them that you don't mean to be insulting.

I was once an atheist. I know exactly what it's like.

This sentance makes no sense. Being an atheist isn't "like" anything. "Atheist" is a privative definition: it tells you what someone is NOT (a believer in god), not what someone is. There is nothing that ties atheists together or makes them have similar experiences anymore than non-racecar drivers all have similar experiences. Your claim to know what it's like to be an atheist is as silly as claiming to know what it's like not to be a fish. So what? Why do you think that gives you any clue or insight into the experiences of other people who are also not fish? Do you really think an experience of being a gerbil (a sort of not-fish) being a fish helps you understand what it is like to be an elephant (another kind of non-fish)?

All I'm saying is that you really don't know the other side.

Sure I do. Many of my good friends are believers. I respect them, and they respect me, and I understand their beliefs and the role they play in their lives. But the reality is that that role can be played by lots of other things, and work in different ways. When one of our closest friends died of a terrible disease, we all dealt with it in our own ways, and it was hard for all, but we all took away our own meaning and lessons and reasons to be joyful and hopeful. For some that was tinged with religious convictions, for others it was other convictions.

 

[blahblahblah]

Of course you did: it cannot help BUT be insulting. It's like walking up to someone, telling them that they are ugly, and then telling them that you don't mean to be insulting.

I'm vouching for Asus, he did not mean it the way you understood it. Accusing him of purposely trying to insult you is crazy. He has been respectful this entire time, yet you accuse him of intentionally insulting you? I think you are the one who owes an apology. He has already apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

[Tr0n]

have you experienced anything supernatural while believing in god?

Does it matter?Maybe I have maybe I haven't.OMG I haven't seen anything supernatural happen yet so I'm gonna give up my beliefs....

 

[Lil' Timmy]

I'm vouching for Asus, he did not mean it the way you understood it. Accusing him of purposely trying to insult you is crazy. He has been respectful this entire time, yet you accuse him of intentionally insulting you? I think you are the one who owes an apology. He has already apologize for the misunderstanding.

well, technically he did not apologize, he just claimed a miscommunication. personally i agree with apos; telling someone that they are not capable of being 'truly' happy in their current mindset (which was the intimation of the statement) can be pretty insulting. personally, i take little offense at stuff other people say, b/c i know i'm better than they are :E

 

[Yakuza]

But my religious studies teacher (i didn't want to do that subject...) at school referred to God as a "he - him"

You can't truly believe something exsists and build on that saying its a male. If you truly believed in a God you'd call it "it" and respect the fact you don't actually how a clue what to believe it is.

I can drops loads of scripture were God is not only discribed as a "he" but also a "Father" and more personely "Daddy".

 

[Neutrino]

I can drops loads of scripture were God is not only discribed as a "he" but also a "Father" and more personely "Daddy".

I would tend to argue that this means the scripture is anthropomorphizing God rather than it really meaning god is male. Humans do that a lot.

 

[blahblahblah]

I would tend to argue that this means the scripture is anthropomorphizing God rather than it really meaning anything. Humans tend to do that a lot.

I would agree because humans only have the ability to understand things in a limited context. Take a look at the infinity thread we had several days ago. It was too complicated to think of infinity as a whole so we had to simplify it in order to begin to understand the context of infinity.

With that said, the bible can be refering to God as a person (after all, we were created in his image) or as a way to simplify it so the common person can understand it better.

 

[Apos]

I'm vouching for Asus, he did not mean it the way you understood it. Accusing him of purposely trying to insult you is crazy. He has been respectful this entire time, yet you accuse him of intentionally insulting you? I think you are the one who owes an apology. He has already apologize for the misunderstanding.

But I didn't misunderstand him. Even in apologizing he repeated the basic idea that he somehow knows that I and people like me are not "truly" happy or able to deal with hardship. I concede that he may not have been thinking to be insulting by saying it, but you do have to be pretty darn oblivious and condescending not to realize what the implication of telling someone their life is of an inferior emotional quality is. That's insulting, plain and simple. I accept the apology in terms of the sentiment, because I don't think he's a bad guy or he's out to intentionally hurt anyone's feelings or be arrogant or any of that, but not in terms of the fact that he appears to maintain his ultimately pretty darn insulting position. I'm not personally slighted or upset about it, because I understand where he's coming from, but I don't think he's fully appreciating the implication of his position.

 

[Yakuza]

Yay, ive been waiting for someone religious to join in.

Riddle me this: How can someone perfect create imperfection?

Interesting that some one who brings up this discussion wouldn't first consult the bible before making an argument against it.

Gen 1

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

The fall had not yet accured, sin had not entered our bodies at this point.

Genesis 3


The Fall of Man

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."


Now here is where things go down hill for us.

but the get better.....

Romans 5

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Apos]

Interesting that some one who brings up this discussion wouldn't first consult the bible before making an argument against it.

Well, quoting the Bible didn't seem to help you, so why should we consider it a useful exercise at this point? To repeat, if it was good, how could it ever get bad? Saying it got bad because of man makes no sense. That should have been good too. Where the heck did the serpent came from if everything was good? Why were the man and the woman so temptible and weak if they were good? The passages you quote don't even address the question, much less attempt to answer it.

 

[Neutrino]

Interesting that some one who brings up this discussion wouldn't first consult the bible before making an argument against it....

I don't see how that answers the question at all. If God is perfect how could he create Adam and Eve who were obviously not perfect?

Edit: Beat me to it, Apos.

 

[poseyjmac]

Does it matter?Maybe I have maybe I haven't.OMG I haven't seen anything supernatural happen yet so I'm gonna give up my beliefs....

in other words...no.

same can be said for those who believe in the pink elephant god, or the green coyote god. they haven't seen anything supernatural, yet they still believe, and if i asked the same question to them, they would also roll their eyes at me and say , just because i haven't seen anything supernatural doesn't mean he is not real and that i should stop believing!

its so unfortunate that so many people that are spoon fed religion as a child never actually think for themselves.

 

[Prince of China]

poseyjmac, just because you haven't experienced something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I haven't experienced driving in a car, that must mean that cars don't exist.

 

[blahblahblah]

I don't see how that answers the question at all. If God is perfect how could he create Adam and Eve who were obviously not perfect?

Edit: Beat me to it, Apos.

Free Will. God believes that we should have a choice.

I would go more indepth, but Section 351 of the IRS tax code is beckoning for me to study it.

 

[Neutrino]

Free Will. God believes that we should have a choice.

I would go more indepth, but Section 351 of the IRS tax code is beckoning for me to study it.

Alright, they had free will. That still doesn't really answer the question though. The fact that they had free will doesn't make up for the fact that they were still imperfect. If they were perfect they would have made the right choice. They did not, thus they were not perfect.

 

[Yakuza]

I would tend to argue that this means the scripture is anthropomorphizing God rather than it really meaning god is male. Humans do that a lot.

John 1


The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.....

4The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[4] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.




So if Jesus is God and then God became flesh why would he become a male?


I am not tying to make any kind of sound argument right now as I dont have the time, rather just droping some ideas.

 

[poseyjmac]

poseyjmac, just because you haven't experienced something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I haven't experienced driving in a car, that must mean that cars don't exist.

and thats exactly my point. so why does god get so much attention when he has made himself just as real as the pink elephant god, or the green coyote god?

because of a history book that goes along with it?

 

[blahblahblah]

Alright, they had free will. That still doesn't really answer the question though. The fact that they had free will doesn't make up for the fact that they were still imperfect. If they were perfect they would have made the right choice. They did not, thus they were not perfect.

Would you still have free will if you were perfect? Sounds awfully one-sided to me. If one is perfect, free will cannot exist because you do not have the capacity to make a choice.

God believes free will is important.

 

[Neutrino]

Would you still have free will if you were perfect? Sounds awfully one-sided to me. If one is perfect, free will cannot exist because you do not have the capacity to make a choice.

God believes free will is important.

Yes I agree, free will and perfection contradict each other.

That's my point. Adam and Eve were not perfect and thus God could not have been perfect. That's what the original question was getting at.

God believes free will is important.

Just to be nit picky here, how exactly does God believe something? Wouldn't he know it?

 

[DoctorGordon]

Theres no such thing as "free will". Its the firing of neurons, that simple. An action is determined by thought, which is determined by physics.

 

[blahblahblah]

Yes I agree, free will and perfection contradict each other.

That's my point. Adam and Eve were not perfect and thus God could not have been perfect. That's what the original question was getting at.

I'm confused. You are saying that Adam and Eve must be perfect since God is? How do you figure?

Just to be nit picky here, how exactly does God believe something? Wouldn't he know it?

Same difference.

 

[Neutrino]

I'm confused. You are saying that Adam and Eve must be perfect since God is? How do you figure?

See the first post in this thread.

Heh, we finally made it all the way back around to the original topic. Has that even happened before here?

 

[blahblahblah]

See the first post in this thread.

Heh, we finally made it all the way back around to the original topic. Has that even happened before here?

But, we are perfect in his sense. We were able to choose our future.

He didn't create us with an urge for murder, rape, and violence. We choose that destiny ourselves.

I think this is the first time we have made it all the way back around.

 

[Yakuza]

Well, quoting the Bible didn't seem to help you, so why should we consider it a useful exercise at this point? To repeat, if it was good, how could it ever get bad? Saying it got bad because of man makes no sense. That should have been good too. Where the heck did the serpent came from if everything was good? Why were the man and the woman so temptible and weak if they were good? The passages you quote don't even address the question, much less attempt to answer it.

Simlpe, the answer is choice, well rather a position in wich God allows for us to choose.

God created the circumstance for wich disobedience was possible. You can not have willfull obedience with out the possibiity of disobedience.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

Heh, we finally made it all the way back around to the original topic. Has that even happened before here?

despite my best efforts.. yes, many times :|

 

[blahblahblah]

despite my best efforts.. yes, many times :|

I undermine you, yet again.

Score:

Blahblahblah: 1,256
Lil' Timmy: 3

 

[DoctorGordon]

Define "perfect" in this sense. Are you saying a fish is "perfect"? Is a tree "perfect"? What does that mean exactly?

 

[blahblahblah]

Define "perfect" in this sense. Are you saying a fish is "perfect"? Is a tree "perfect"? What does that mean exactly?

Perfect in the sense that he designed us with the ability to choose our future and we did.

 

[Neutrino]

But, we are perfect in his sense. We were able to choose our future.

He didn't create us with an urge for murder, rape, and violence. We choose that destiny ourselves.

I think this is the first time we have made it all the way back around.

I thought we just agreed that perfection and free will could not coexist?


Here's a question for you:

Does God have free will?

 

[DoctorGordon]

Flaws...flaws...flaws

Theres no such thing as 'choice'...only reaction. Life's entire existence is just laws of physics playing out. The weather, sound, evolution, human thought, everything.

 

[blahblahblah]

I thought we just agreed that perfection and free will could not coexist?

God is perfect.

Humanity is not perfect, but has free will.

God created us perfect within his specific definition of humanity.