Source Engine

[frances_farmer]

Not sure if i've really got the right forum for this, but some people no doubt will find this interesting. This is taken from a preview of Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines, which use the Source engine.:

The game also won't be making use of the Source engine's support for vehicles. Speaking of Source, it's interesting to note that the game was demoed to us on an nVidia-powered rig that that Activision brought in for the presentation. Apparently, Valve has been able to make some significant improvements to the code since Newell discussed the large performance gap back in the fall. Even when factoring in possibly lower-quality textures, lighting and character detail, it still ran pretty fast and didn't appear to have any jaggies. When asked for comment, Doug Lombardi stated, "We haven't had a chance to benchmark Vampire specifically...The Source engineers are working closely with all the GPU and CPU manufacturers to insure great performance across all hardware."

Also:

It also turns out that Bloodlines has not actually been delayed until Spring 2005, although it has still been pushed back a bit to Fall of this year.

Original Article: http://pc.ign.com/articles/493/493776p1.html

 

[G-Dub]

Interesting...

 

[Maxi]

Aye, very interesting.

 

[PvtRyan]

Aye, very interesting.
But as far as I know, the problem of Nvidia doesn't lie in the texture resolutions and detail (which the text implies on), it's plenty fast for that, even faster than the Radeons, but it lies in the fact that Nvidia used a different DX9 standard than Microsoft. So I doubt the problem can be solved without losing details in shaders and stuff.

But this text also tells another thing, the code of Source isn't locked yet, and is still being optimised and not yet final. So they're probably not waiting for Steam to get faster and HL2 isn't done yet.

 

[DEATH eVADER]

I believe PCGamer said that vampire:bloodline is actually near completion but said that the vampire game won't be released until HL2 has, I think its in the agreement of sharing the source engine or something. Imagine, having two great games released on the same day.

 

[Cutey_Kaite]

Aye, very interesting.
But as far as I know, the problem of Nvidia doesn't lie in the texture resolutions and detail (which the text implies on), it's plenty fast for that, even faster than the Radeons, but it lies in the fact that Nvidia used a different DX9 standard than Microsoft. So I doubt the problem can be solved without losing details in shaders and stuff.

But this text also tells another thing, the code of Source isn't locked yet, and is still being optimised and not yet final. So they're probably not waiting for Steam to get faster and HL2 isn't done yet.

What if source is so dynamic that they already finished the game in thier old source, and now are making source better. Then when they finally finish making source better, they could take all the finished work and put it in the upgraded source, and maybe add a few touchups to the graphics and such.
This could explain why they delayed it so spotaniously. Maybe a week before the game's release they looked at source and decided it's not good (by Valve's standarts) so they started adding things in (like stolen code, and making it better),
but you never know do you?

 

[Brian Damage]

They could have made those optimisations shortly after the "Nvidia cards don't work very well with HL2" fiasco.

On the other hand, if they haven't yet locked it, they could be improving it massivley from last time we saw it.

 

[Cutey_Kaite]

They could have made those optimisations shortly after the "Nvidia cards don't work very well with HL2" fiasco.

On the other hand, if they haven't yet locked it, they could be improving it massivley from last time we saw it.

I hope they add real time lighting and shadowing.

 

[Brian Damage]

... so they started adding things in (like stolen code, and making it better)

Pardon? Adding stolen code?

Clarification?

EDIT: I think they already have dynamic lighting.

 

[Cutey_Kaite]

Pardon? Adding stolen code?

Clarification?

Whoops , what i ment is that they started adding things to replace the stolen code, silly me

Edit: Well they did say they were gonna have one point shadows (if you know what im talkin bout) but i want shadowing that would make doom 3 cry

 

[Brian Damage]

That would probably take too long to implement in the short term, but I believe that they may add it in down the road.

And, just to make sure: The stolen code didn't go missing from VALVe's computers, a copy was made by the hacker. You're saying that they might be programming extra stuff to defeat cheaters, right?

 

[Cutey_Kaite]

That would probably take too long to implement in the short term, but I believe that they may add it in down the road.

And, just to make sure: The stolen code didn't go missing from VALVe's computers, a copy was made by the hacker. You're saying that they might be programming extra stuff to defeat cheaters, right?

Yea, so that the first day that HL2 comes, there wont be aim bots and what not already on the scene

 

[Brian Damage]

Right. Just had to check. There are still some people around who think that the code theft somehow left VALVe with less code.

 

[Foxtrot]

Brian, in a way it did. It left them with less safe code.

 

[Wilco]

They said Source was frozen Sept 2001, but they've already started changing it, so they're probably adding a few more tricks they've thought up in the past 3 years

 

[Mountain Man]

Haven't you folks figured it out by now? That ATi sponsored press conference where Gabe talked smack about ATi's largest competitor was just a marketing scam. Or do you really think Gabe gave an unbiased analysis of nVidia hardware at an ATi sponsored event? If you believe that then I've a bridge in Brooklyn I'd love to sell you.

 

[Pitbul]

from how Valve explains how good the Source engines code is. it seems like they could probly work on the code to up to a few weeks before they publish it. its probly fairly easy to close but not so easy to open that is why they have left it open this long. plus they obviously have back ups. maybe Valve doesn't suck as bad as i thought they did since they seem to want to make sure this game will run on all hardware. from this they are on their way to re-deeming themselves in my eyes. now lets see if they get the game out by september.

 

[Jackal hit]

actually it wasn't only at the ATi conference that gabe was saying nvidia cards run like sh*t w/ DX9 games. read through the info from valve thread, and read all the articles you can find, you'll see that gabe has NEVER said a single good thing about nvidia's performance with the DX9 standard. i very much believe that a big portion of this delay business is due to valve's efforts to make the game run well on the fx chips. afterall... they lose out on a massive portion of the consumer market if the game is sh*t on 1/3 of the graphics cards out there(nvidia taking up ~28% of the market share, ATi, about 29%, and intel's integrated stuff are on the rest)

 

[Jackal hit]

Aye, very interesting.
But as far as I know, the problem of Nvidia doesn't lie in the texture resolutions and detail (which the text implies on), it's plenty fast for that, even faster than the Radeons, but it lies in the fact that Nvidia used a different DX9 standard than Microsoft. So I doubt the problem can be solved without losing details in shaders and stuff.

But this text also tells another thing, the code of Source isn't locked yet, and is still being optimised and not yet final. So they're probably not waiting for Steam to get faster and HL2 isn't done yet.

the problem is also that the fx cards default to a DX 8.1 algorithm when possible to speed up the performance of the card.

 

[Brian Damage]

Brian, in a way it did. It left them with less safe code.

My point was, some people still think that VALVe are now missing part of the game code itself.

 

[Styloid]

from how Valve explains how good the Source engines code is. it seems like they could probly work on the code to up to a few weeks before they publish it. its probly fairly easy to close but not so easy to open that is why they have left it open this long. plus they obviously have back ups. maybe Valve doesn't suck as bad as i thought they did since they seem to want to make sure this game will run on all hardware. from this they are on their way to re-deeming themselves in my eyes. now lets see if they get the game out by september.

You thought they *Sucked*? This is completely new to me and the rest of the forum! I don't know how to feel anymore.

 

[nc17]

The whole "hl2 runs better on ati hardware" thing was a marketing scam to get people to buy ati hardware before they launch their next generation of gpu's, nvidia is going to do the exact same thing with doom3, nvidia has already stated that the nv 5950 will start shiping with free doom3 cupons (just like ati did with hl2)

I have a 5900 ultra and have had no preformance or image quality problems in any games including the hl2 leak, anyone that believes any of that hootinany is an idiot

 

[Foxtrot]

So...you're into bridge selling? I am into bridge buying, how much would this bridge cost?

 

[PvtRyan]

The whole "hl2 runs better on ati hardware" thing was a marketing scam to get people to buy ati hardware before they launch their next generation of gpu's, nvidia is going to do the exact same thing with doom3, nvidia has already stated that the nv 5950 will start shiping with free doom3 cupons (just like ati did with hl2)

I have a 5900 ultra and have had no preformance or image quality problems in any games including the hl2 leak, anyone that believes any of that hootinany is an idiot

HL2 leak doesn't use any DX9 specific effects, and that's where the weak point of the FX's lie.
For you who believe the bad performance of Nvidia is put in on purpose by Valve, really need to know that it's a design problem on the side of Nvidia. Nvidia even works together with Valve to get the problem solved. The problem was also confirmed by John Carmack.
The problem is, to my knowledge, that DX9 was supposed to have 32-bit shader precision, but was later changed to 24-bit, ATi followed that standard, Nvidia sticked to 32-bit, making them slower.
The performance problem only exists with the FX's, that are just not pure DX9 cards. Older generation cards like the Geforce 4 Ti, perform really well, altough it's under DX8.1.
The NV40 will be Nvidia's first full blown DX9 card, with a shader performance that's supposed to be 4x faster. I think Nvidia will take the lead on the r420.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

http://media.pc.ign.com/media/566/566186/img_1882890.html

would you?

 

[Karis]

http://media.pc.ign.com/media/566/566186/img_1882890.html

would you?

Wrong image. You ment to use this one.

http://www.halflife2.net/image_files/concept_gordon2.jpg

And yes, I would.

Now... what was that topic?

 

[bobvodka]

tbh, with proper engine-game seperation you can keep adding and refineing stuff as long as you dont change the interface the game is using (unless you have a REALLY good reason).
I'm guessing part of the reson for the Vampire game being delayed is updates to the engine they will probably get as part of the deal for it.

btw, shadows to make 'doom3 cry' would also make your gfx card cry and then roll over, remember D3 pushes a 9700pro but HL2 is designed to work on anything from a DX7 class hardware up (TNT2 lvl iirc) and while D3's shadows/lighting might not be perfect (lack of soft shadowing is one issue iirc) i doubt we'll see something like it it in HL2, or at least the first revision, simple because of its design constraints.

The increased speed on the Nvidia cards is probably a combination of an improved DX9 shader compiler from NVidia and a custom code path.

 

[bobvodka]

The problem is, to my knowledge, that DX9 was supposed to have 32-bit shader precision, but was later changed to 24-bit, ATi followed that standard, Nvidia sticked to 32-bit, making them slower.

Close, Nvidia tried to push a 32bit DX9 spec and MS rejected it in favour of a 24bit version, which ATI then followed, I think Nvidia then threw a paddy over it or something like that.... either way, they lost out by trying to push their vision... as for the NV40, we'll see.. until i see hard specs from either company I'm not going to comment on what is 'ment' to be faster..

 

[nc17]

HL2 leak doesn't use any DX9 specific effects, and that's where the weak point of the FX's lie.
For you who believe the bad performance of Nvidia is put in on purpose by Valve, really need to know that it's a design problem on the side of Nvidia. Nvidia even works together with Valve to get the problem solved. The problem was also confirmed by John Carmack.
The problem is, to my knowledge, that DX9 was supposed to have 32-bit shader precision, but was later changed to 24-bit, ATi followed that standard, Nvidia sticked to 32-bit, making them slower.
The performance problem only exists with the FX's, that are just not pure DX9 cards. Older generation cards like the Geforce 4 Ti, perform really well, altough it's under DX8.1.
The NV40 will be Nvidia's first full blown DX9 card, with a shader performance that's supposed to be 4x faster. I think Nvidia will take the lead on the r420.

Actually it does, the leak has full HDR and ALPT support it is just not enabled by default and all PS in the leak are dx9 and 8 only

Also there have been a few games released that use full DX9 level fx such a the farcry demo wich also has HDR and dx9 video filter modes and also uses VS and Ps 2.0, farcry will probly be the first pure dx9 game released since hl2 was delayed

The problem with the nv35 and poor ps 2.0 preformance was in the drivers which at the time of the benchmark only allowed the nv35 to us eone of it's dual sets of quad pipelines because of the nv35's 4x2 pipeline architecture, all of that has been resolved since then and is quite evident in the latest comparisons, the nv40 is suposedly a full 16 pipeline gpu with pci express suport and a massive transister count, cant wait

 

[<RJMC>]

I just care about the requirements
in the article sayd that the source run fast even in poor requirements?

 

[bobvodka]

yes, the engine is designed to be scaleable from a TNT2 and a 600mhz P3 upwards iirc

 

[Brian Damage]

Meh, I've been hearing a figure between 700 and 800 MHz for the processor.