Source tech still in development ???

[Cheater]

I know Valve should be concentrating on developping the game hl2 at this moment, but I really hope that they are also improving the technology of their engine. One or two months ago, even though Source engine doesn't have dynamic lighting & shadowing and many other techs that other engines have, hl2 is still the most anticipated upcoming fps game and it was supposed to release the 30th September. However, right now hl2 is not as anticipated as it used to be. Many upcoming games use engines that are more advance than Source engine. Moh pacific assault's player model is more detail, the iris can change size according to light. Far cry's Cry engine features dynamic lighting & shadowing, high polygon player models, weather effects, the longest view distance, large map, physics, etc (Far cry is scheduled before 2004). Stalker's engine also has dynamic lighting and shadowing, large map, realistic sky, ragdoll, havok physics etc. And couple other games whose engine features stuff that Source engine doesn't have. The fact reveals that the technology of source engine which was demonstrated in the E3 is not that advance comparing to other upcoming engines. Just go watch the tech movies of other games, u will find out. As a hl fan, that's something I don't want to see. I really hope that Valve is still developping the technology of the source engine to make it to be able to rival with other engines. I also hope that when Valve release news or videos next time, there will be new exciting stuffs that make hl2 the most anticipated game again.

 

[ultraq]

Source engine doesn't have dynamic lighting & shadowing

are you sure?

 

[Cheetarah654]

dont you worry little boy, it will be even better than you expect

 

[Shuzer]

MOH PA player models have more detail? They look good, but I wouldn't say they're more detailed. Also, iris changing size is something you're not going to be noticing, HL2 has more realistic eyes, by far.
Also, HL2 has the whole facial muscle system, which is a step above any other engine's.

HL2 features high polygon player models, long view distances, large maps, superior physics, realistic sky, ragdoll and.. so forth. It doesn't have the lightning and shadows other games (like Doom 3) have, but that's just one feature it doesn't include, and that's not to say HL2's shadows/lighting isn't good.

Engines have their different perks, but Source is by no means outdated, and won't be for years to come.

 

[Cheater]

Originally posted by ultraq
are you sure?

yup i'm sure. have u seen in a toilet in doom3, when the light swing, the shadowing of everything undernearth it change in size and in depth. Also, in the cry tech engine demo video, a guy shoot the light source which affects it to swing around, the same thing happen, that's called dynamic lighting & shadowing. The shadow and light can change in depth and in size and even in form according to the light source and the amount of light. I never seen any of this in half life 2 or any souce engine demo. I have been watching all hl2 and hl2 related videos for more than 100 times, I still don't see any.

 

[Shuzer]

I think he means are you sure Source doesn't include it? It may be a "design decision, but not a technical limitation", as VALVe is working on making HL2 compatible even with lower end systems.

Edit: I have no idea in the matter, just thought I'd point out what he might have meant

 

[KagePrototype]

NOpe, Source DOES have dynamic lighting and shadows, it just doesn't apply to everything like in Doom 3. You may not see it, but Valve has actually said this.

 

[Maxi]

It does have dynamic lightening, gabe mentioned it. I think it's somehwhere in the Valve info thread.

 

[Cheater]

Originally posted by Shuzer
MOH PA player models have more detail? They look good, but I wouldn't say they're more detailed. Also, iris changing size is something you're not going to be noticing, HL2 has more realistic eyes, by far.
Also, HL2 has the whole facial muscle system, which is a step above any other engine's.

HL2 features high polygon player models, long view distances, large maps, superior physics, realistic sky, ragdoll and.. so forth. It doesn't have the lightning and shadows other games (like Doom 3) have, but that's just one feature it doesn't include, and that's not to say HL2's shadows/lighting isn't good.

Engines have their different perks, but Source is by no means outdated, and won't be for years to come.

I still remeber couple months ago, someone post a thread which has a static screenshot of the soldier's face in the tech video. But at the time, the video wasn't out yet. So people here start discussing whether the the model's face is in-game or not. Many and many here (i was one of them) think that the picture wasn't in-game, and our argument is that the FACE IS WAY TOO DETAIL. However, the lately released video prove that all of us were wrong, even i was wrong. That's what makes me to start looking forward to information of other upcoming games, and I find out that many other engines have stuff that's more advance.

I also think that the iris is not noticeable, but tech is tech, having it is better than not having it. That's what I mean by "more advance".

 

[Shuzer]

Originally posted by Cheater
I also think that the iris is not noticeable, but tech is tech, having it is better than not having it. That's what I mean by "more advance".

I forgot to mention that Gabe said the iris changing size due to light would be easily moddable, and that it was a design decision, not a technical limitation. Check the VALVe info thread.. it's in there.

Also, I don't see what the big whoop over the characters in MOH PA is.. I watched the video, it looked pretty, sure, but I think HL2 has a more realistic feel to the character models

 

[Echelon]

i hope they ain't developing it anymore atm, but only tweak it a bit, imo it's good enough for now and they should be concentrating on fixing the security holes caused by the leak.

EA stated, that the face of a moh pa soldier has more polys then a whole moh aa model. so it ain't fake.

 

[Cheater]

Originally posted by KagePrototype
NOpe, Source DOES have dynamic lighting and shadows, it just doesn't apply to everything like in Doom 3. You may not see it, but Valve has actually said this.

That's why I hope that the next hl2 news or video will show up some new exciting stuff about the game. I'm also looking forward to see dynamic lighting and shadowing in hl2.

However so far in all the videos and demos available out there doesn't have dynamic shadowing and ligthting. Watch traptown, before the beam swings, there are combines walking around, there are many light sources there, but every combine soldier has only one shadow(there's already wrong) and the shadow doesn't change depth and size according to the distance between the body and the light source while the soldier is moving. In all the video, none of them contain a scene where people can make the light swings, then everything underneath it whose shadow change in size, depth and form. THat's why I conclude that hl2 doesn't have dynamic lighting and shadowing.

 

[Chris D]

Uh-oh!! Someone's played the stolen version and disappointed

Hehe, they won't be adding much else to the engine as apparently the engine code was "frozen" about 6 months before E3.
MOHPA is all good and well, but it's not going to be Half-Life.
Doom3 is all good and well, but it aint going to be Half-Life.
Far Cry is all good and well, but it isn't going to be Half-Life.

Everything you just mentioned in your post that may (but probably won't) count against Half-Life 2 are all gimmicks and graphics. Nothing to do with gameplay. If HL is anything to go by, HL2 will come out and have many rivals for features and graphics but HL2 will still prevail because of it's general feel and lastability. Valve can do it.

 

[HeatMiser]

Don't forget that there is much more to a game than an advanced lighting engine. I can only speak for myself, but I'm looking forward to an engrossing, cinematic story as much as I am eye candy. And it seems to me that the story elements are a huge part of what made the original Half-Life "Game Of The Year" according to practically everybody.

Of course mods like Counterstrike are what gave the game its longevity, but that's a different subject entirely. Regardless, HL2 remains in a position to be a HUGE hit IMHO.

 

[poseyjmac]

Originally posted by Cheater
yup i'm sure. have u seen in a toilet in doom3, when the light swing, the shadowing of everything undernearth it change in size and in depth. Also, in the cry tech engine demo video, a guy shoot the light source which affects it to swing around, the same thing happen, that's called dynamic lighting & shadowing. The shadow and light can change in depth and in size and even in form according to the light source and the amount of light. I never seen any of this in half life 2 or any souce engine demo. I have been watching all hl2 and hl2 related videos for more than 100 times, I still don't see any.

well even though you can't have lights that move in hl2 afaik in the beta, every object can have a shadow that moves dynamically, so if a computer monitor is to the right of a light source, the shadow is cast right, if left then its cast left.

swinging lights are really the only feasible way to show off that tech anyway and i hope doom3 isn't full of swinging lights

 

[Cheater]

Gameplay, mods, facial expression and water are the only thing I can think of to make hl2 better than other games. However, we still can't be sure for the gameplay, cuz we haven't play any of them yet. In addition, we haven't seen facial expression of charaters and water in other games, maybe they are also amazing.
Talking about the "superior physics", I'm not sure, one of the guy who makes doom3 claims to the public that doom3's physics will beat any other physics featured in other engines. I have played max payne 2 in first person view, it's like playing the fps game with havok physics for the first time, I hope that hl2's physics can be more impressive than the one in max payne 2.

 

[Chris D]

Of course it will be. Most idSoftware games are just a gigantic tech demo to promote their engines to third parties.

You know we'll see so many sequels spawn from the Doom 3 engine. SoF3 anyone?

EDIT: Oooh, nice grammar sir
Corrected

 

[PvtRyan]

This again?

The only thing that Source really misses is a fully dynamic ligthting system, but that wasn't left out because of Valve's inability to make it, but because it has no application in HL2. See, for Doom 3 it's perfect, Doom 3 without dynamic lighting wouldn't be Doom 3, in HL2, it would just be a cool gimmick to shoot around lamps, it would drain processing power, but really, let's be realistic, it has no purpose here.

And MoH Pacific, really, did you HAVE to mention this one? What is so special about the good ol' Quake 3 engine? OK, it now has some pixel- and vertexshaders but no way it comes close to the real next gen engines.
The iris size changing has nothing to do with engine capabilities, just a texturing trick. The real deal is altering the size of it dynamically while enviroment lights and brightness changes, which I doubt MoH does because once again, it has no purpose in this kind of game.
And then, do you really think some iris changing matches with 40 seperate muscles in a face? Come on!

And S.T.A.L.K.E.R. doesn't use Havok2, granted, the ragdoll effects look pretty equal to HL2, but vehicle physics aren't even close yet.

HL2 has BY FAR the best shader effects I've seen in a game, remember the E3 techdemo with the rotating pixelshaded boxes? Remember the nicest water ever in a game?

And Far Cry doesn't use high poly models, if that is what you think, it uses normal mapped models, a technique also used by Source and used on some models too. In no way a limitation of the engine.

It's nonsense, no matter what way you look at it, to compare the next gen engines.
Far Cry is great in showing tropical enviroments with large outdoor maps, but is unable to produce realistic believeable city's like HL2 and STALKER can, just because these engines have a totally different use, Cry Engine wasn't developed for city's, Source and X-Ray weren't developed for tropical islands with thousands of trees.
Doom 3 is the best when it comes to lighting and shadowing, but no match for Far Cry when dealing with large enviroments.

 

[Chris D]

I edited your posts because you spoilt it at the bottom with the "OMG IM SHOUTNIG AT YUO!!!!" caps

NOW it's a good post that demonstrates that you know a lot.

 

[PvtRyan]

Originally posted by Chris_D
I edited your posts because you spoilt it at the bottom with the "OMG IM SHOUTNIG AT YUO!!!!" caps

Yeah, sorry for that, but I'm pretty sick of X vs Y threads, just to promote one engine or flame the engine.

 

[Chris D]

It's not against the rules to "shout" at people, I just thought it made the post a little bit more intelligent

Cheater: I've sorted it.

Now let's carry on the discussion.

Now I think I've said this before, but I personally couldn't give a shit if they just recreated the HL2 story on the original Quake engine like HL1 was - because I know that the story would be so immersive and "HL-ish" that I'd love it no matter what. Obviously the fact that it is on a super engine is brilliant - but certainly not going to be the best thing about it.

And no... I don't have a 486
I've got a pretty top spec PC so yeah, if I can appreciate the HL2 story with bitching graphics then "whoooo!". If not, then I'll love it anyway.

 

[Cheater]

I'm not promoting other engine and and spoiling hl2 or souce engine. That's not my goal to post this thread. I just want to know more about hl2 and its engine.

And I'm a robot who outputs what is inputted...

 

[Chris D]

YES cheater! That's what I like, a post without insults and swearing! Whooo I know PvtRyan was guilty too but I sorted it

We do appreciate you're not promoting any other engine, which is good. But what is it that you want to know about the HL2 engine?

 

[Cheater]

Originally posted by Chris_D
YES cheater! That's what I like, a post without insults and swearing! Whooo I know PvtRyan was guilty too but I sorted it

We do appreciate you're not promoting any other engine, which is good. But what is it that you want to know about the HL2 engine?

Since hl2 missing the release day, and many negative news concerning hl2 and the troublesome steam, my faith and anticipation on hl2 has shaken. I want to know whether the engine is good enough to rival with other engines, so that i can have more faith and anticipation on it and i will play with it for more than 3 years like i did with hl1 and it's mods. that's what i want to know. And really, with better graphics and all other effects in one engine will make the world created using such engine much more realistic and immersive, and I can merge even more into the game world and enjoy the game.

 

[The Dark Elf]

So can the source engine do or fake day/night transitions then. I imagine it wont be able to do the sun crawling across the sky, effecting shadows etc. But the overall lighting and sky color/type. Things like that, reckon thats possible? And if so, is running with a world(game) time or local(map) time?

 

[Mountain Man]

Originally posted by Cheater
Source engine doesn't have dynamic lighting & shadowing

Yes it does. Valve has simply chosen to implement it differently than, say, Doom III.

Many upcoming games use engines that are more advance than Source engine.

I'd say they're comparable, not necessarily more advanced.

Moh pacific assault's player model is more detail, the iris can change size according to light.

Source features a facial animation system that is currently the most advanced in the industry.

Far cry's Cry engine features dynamic lighting & shadowing, high polygon player models, weather effects, the longest view distance, large map, physics, etc

Source also features dynamic lighting and shadow as well as very high poly character models. Source is certainly capable of weather effects but it's unknown if Valve implemented in Half-Life 2. As for view distance, judging by the videos, Source is no slouch in this area, and its physics system looks to integrate physics into the game world to an unprecedented level.

Stalker's engine also has dynamic lighting and shadowing, large map, realistic sky, ragdoll, havok physics etc.

Ditto Source.

The fact reveals that the technology of source engine which was demonstrated in the E3 is not that advance comparing to other upcoming engines.

I'd say that it's at least as advanced as other upcoming engines. But you have to remember, it's not the tech, it's how you use it.

 

[Chris D]

Originally posted by Cheater
Since hl2 missing the release day, and many negative news concerning hl2 and the troublesome steam, my faith and anticipation on hl2 has shaken. I want to know whether the engine is good enough to rival with other engines, so that i can have more faith and anticipation on it and i will play with it for more than 3 years like i did with hl1 and it's mods. that's what i want to know. And really, with better graphics and all other effects in one engine will make the world created using such engine much more realistic and immersive, and I can merge even more into the game world and enjoy the game.

It missed the delay, only because it needed more time, nothing else. It doesn't mean anything's wrong. It's happened. HL1 was delayed 3 or 4 times before it was released and they started over at one point.

The engine certainly will. As with the Half-Life engine, and quite clearly before that the Quake 1 engine - what you see, isn't what you get. The Quake engine was improved on massively to create Half-Life and the Half-Life engine was improved on massively to create popular games such as CS, TFC, NS, Action, Opposing Force, Firearms etc. etc. and many more. Each one has different advancements that make the engine a lot more than what HL was; a lot more than what Quake was.

I'd say that so far, the HL2 engine (graphics wise) is unbeaten with the detail it creates. The models are all massive poly, the environments look amazing, the textures and bump/normal mapping is great, the map sizes are great, physics are brilliant, the way the water looks, the way the wood fragments etc etc. Yes there are good competitors - but with the facial animation system that will beat MOHPA no problem, the story line will beat all of them.

 

[Hudson]

Originally posted by Chris_D
It missed the delay, only because it needed more time, nothing else. It doesn't mean anything's wrong. It's happened. HL1 was delayed 3 or 4 times before it was released and they started over at one point.

The engine certainly will. As with the Half-Life engine, and quite clearly before that the Quake 1 engine - what you see, isn't what you get. The Quake engine was improved on massively to create Half-Life and the Half-Life engine was improved on massively to create popular games such as CS, TFC, NS, Action, Opposing Force, Firearms etc. etc. and many more. Each one has different advancements that make the engine a lot more than what HL was; a lot more than what Quake was.

I'd say that so far, the HL2 engine (graphics wise) is unbeaten with the detail it creates. The models are all massive poly, the environments look amazing, the textures and bump/normal mapping is great, the map sizes are great, physics are brilliant, the way the water looks, the way the wood fragments etc etc. Yes there are good competitors - but with the facial animation system that will beat MOHPA no problem, the story line will beat all of them.

YOur post makes me sad chris :x You left out the most stunning example of the HL engine in full tilt, DoD :bounce:

And just to clear up the whole "teh source does not have teh dynamic light nweb!!11" dilema, Source does not have FULLY dynamic lighting. The shadows cast by for example moving players cast dynamic shadows, whereas most other shadows are static

 

[azz0r]

Originally posted by Shuzer
I forgot to mention that Gabe said the iris changing size due to light would be easily moddable, and that it was a design decision, not a technical limitation. Check the VALVe info thread.. it's in there.

Also, I don't see what the big whoop over the characters in MOH PA is.. I watched the video, it looked pretty, sure, but I think HL2 has a more realistic feel to the character models

I emailed gabe about this a while back, his responce...


______________________________
No. Easy to do in a MOD if someone wants to.

Kill Bill was disappointing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: azz0r [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 6:21 AM
To: Gabe Newell
Subject: Iris

Will the iris change size depending on light and situation?

Kill bill was lame wasn't it, admit it You forgot all about it after 2 hours.

--- azz0r, modDB.com.

 

[Chris D]

Yeah. Anything static that simply won't move - won't have a dynamic shadow. Such as a gigantic tower block. It will have a dynamic shadow map seen in most of the early screenshots. You may also notice that the shadows from any people in these screenshots are projected to a different direction. Not sure if the problem still exists or not, but the problem seemed to like in the way that dynamic and static shadows were projected and worked together.

As for the lights, I guess that if you shoot a lightbulb in HL2 that is set as a breakable then the light will go out and cut off any necessary shadows or trigger the light to be set up. I'm guessing that it'd be pretty easy to set up a sort of "Doom3esque" type bathroom scene where if you shoot a light fitting it will effect both the physics and the lighting of the light.

The thing with HL2 is it's so scalable. Like the wood fragment thing. I've seen that works pretty well although some people have told me that wood still breaks at certain points. That's not 100% dynamic but it partly is where it counts which is what HL2 is all about.


Edit: And yes, DoD was also one of the greats that improved on the HL1 engine blah blah

 

[azz0r]

haha, it says Im the last person to post on the thread list, but links to your profile

 

[Chris D]

Eh??

 

[azz0r]

We posted at virtually the same time, but it was saying azz0r was the last one to post on the thread list, but it was linking to your profile.

 

[Chris D]

My post was 4 minutes before yours. You need to click the link back to general or press back and refresh or it won't show the up to date info on the general forum.

Eg. If I was the last person to post in here and I just pressed the back button, because of the way I have IE set up it won't actually refresh the page and show me as the last poster, it'll just go back to the last state I viewed the page in unless I click a link or refresh it.

 

[azz0r]

I know how to work a forum....

Im on about our 01:38 AM posts. Nevermind.

 

[Shuzer]

Page 3 of this forum = completely off topic

azz0r doesn't know how to work a forum, he only knows how to code a forum, there's a difference you know!

 

[Styloid]

Think about it this way: all these new top notch game engine developers all have about equal amount of skill. They all could add physics, dynamic lights and shadows, advanced ai, etc. into their games. The only limitations are time, money and current PC specs. They do what is best for their game.
So far there is no one engine that 'has it all', they just suit different purposes.
Also take into account that Source will be upgraded as it ages. Valve were planning to add HDR after release but now have it in before release. We are also promised motion blur, depth of field, etc.

 

[CheapAssStrat]

Here's a crazy thought: why don't we all wait for these engines to come out and actually see what they are and are not capable of, instead of pulling assumptions out of our asses. :rolling:

 

[iamaelephant]

*note i havent read anything on this thread yet*


Arg jesus, paragraphs man, paragraphs!!

 

[iamaelephant]

*finished reading the thread*

Damn what a waste of time.