Source textures too shiny? Not in DX9 mode...

[UnmarkedOne]

Note: Not a thread for the CS:S forum, this is Source/HL2-related

There was a thread titled 'Counter-Strike: Shiny' a few days ago and it was pages long, and is now buried pages deep. I didn't add on to it because it's a huge thread and I doubt anyone would read through it even if I did post there.

Anyway, the gist of the thread was that a lot of people felt that Source rendered textures in a manner that appeared much too shiny or wet. People were poking fun at CS:S and comparing it to the widely over-used bumpmapping in Doom 3.

Later, while watching my brother play in DX8.1 mode, I realized that everything that's shiny becomes a little too shiny, and even textures that shouldn't be shiny at all have strange effects on them. Old, crumbling walls shine. Weathered wood and frayed rope shines. Even the grass and dirty floors shine.

For anyone who is seeing that weird shine on everything, I really hope there's a patch released that fixes the problem, but keep in mind it's not intentional and if you're able to switch to DX9 mode somehow (or upgarde to a DX9-based vid card), it will look fine. Screenshot comparisons below:

-UnmarkedOne

 

[ShinRa]

shit dx 8.1 looks better to me lol.

 

[Platinum]

whoa ... cool man

 

[spitcodfry]

I don't get it....so DX 9 is not enabled in CS:S? I have a DX 9 card...so does that mean I'm only seeing DX 8.1 effects?

 

[UnmarkedOne]

DX8 appears better in several of the pics, yeah, but in the game it's way too extreme and looks cheesy most of the time. I can easily see why a lot of people with older vid cards were complaining... it's all wrong in DX8 mode. However under DX9 the game's beautiful and every textures shines (or doesn't) as it should.

-UnmarkedOne

 

[jAkUpF]

Which card do you have? By default any GeforceFX card defaults to DX8 mode.

 

[Goombatommy]

Which card do you have? By default any GeforceFX card defaults to DX8 mode.

Yes, all the GF FX cards do, EXCEPT the 6800 series (Vanilla, GT and Ultra).

 

[UnmarkedOne]

I don't get it....so DX 9 is not enabled in CS:S? I have a DX 9 card...so does that mean I'm only seeing DX 8.1 effects?

I would venture to guess, based on what I've seen on my own computers, that anyone seeing unrealistic shiny textures on the CS:S maps is probably stuck in DX8.1 mode (most likely due to their video card not supporting the new effects).

People in the other post were complaining about the shiny effect being used far too often, and in running in DX8.1 mode, almost ALL of the floor textures in Italy, for example, were shiny. Even under overhangs the brick looked wet, so clearly this wasn't intentional. Like I said before though, in DX9 mode, the shiny effect was used in moderation and looked much more realistic.

-UnmarkedOne

 

[Platinum]

man ... i wish i could play ... still waiting for HL2 ... i think im wasting my time though :|

 

[UnmarkedOne]

My card uses DX9 by default, but if anyone wants to see the messed up textures, you can manually set it to 8.1 by doing the following:

Open Steam
Right-click CS:S
-> Properties
-> Launch Options
Type "-dxlevel 81" without the quotes

Now open the CS:S link as you usually would, and levels like Italy will be way too shiny. Check out Chateau too -- the old walls on the outside of the building shine, and the floor of the indoor bomb site is extremely unrealistic.

-UnmarkedOne

 

[She]

i hope they turn down on the specular-mapping in the real HL2 singleplayer...
Sure.. CS:S needed a facelift.. but not this much..

edit: 500:th post.. :| yay...

 

[UnmarkedOne]

i hope they turn down on the specular-mapping in the real HL2 singleplayer...
Sure.. CS:S needed a facelift.. but not his much..

Yeah, She was one of the main people complaining of this shiny problem. She, is your CS:S running in 8.1 mode? When you talk about a facelift, you're making it sound like they over-did it with the shinyness. Not so, in DX9 mode, however. The shiny textures I see are very, very subtle and infrequent.

-UnmarkedOne

 

[She]

Yeah, She was one of the main people complaining of this shiny problem. She, is your CS:S running in 8.1 mode? When you talk about a facelift, you're making it sound like they over-did it with the shinyness. Not so, in DX9 mode, however. The shiny textures I see are very, very subtle and infrequent.

DX9.. But still, those brick walls..
BAH.. it's not as bad as those shadows..
but almost everything is shiny/ice like..

People were poking fun at CS:S and comparing it to the widely over-used bumpmapping in Doom 3.

I dont see why bump-mapping is a negative thing..
Bumpmapping = more details..
Specularmapping = specular / light reflection of surface('s)..

[[ Metal shine... dry rock dont..]]
as simple as that.

 

[UnmarkedOne]

I dont see why bump-mapping is a negative thing.. Bumpmapping = more details..

It's not inherently a bad thing, but my beef with all the bumpmapping in D3 was that the texture quality was so low. It looked fine if you only saw a little of the texture, or it was dimly lit, or you were at a distance. However, as soon as you step up to the wall, you can easily see how jaggy and low-res it appears (even though that's not actually the case).

I like the fact that in HL2, whether you're right up against a wall or 50 feet away, it's going to look like a wall, and in fairly high quality. That just wasn't always the case in Doom.

-UnmarkedOne

 

[UnmarkedOne]

DX9.. But still, those brick walls..
BAH.. it's not as bad as those shadows..
but almost everything is shiny/ice like..

Are you sure you're running in DX9? Please don't take this as a flame at all, I really need some info. And to anyone else having She's same problem, please answer below.

I played three levels and wrote down all the shiny (even remotely) textures I could find. Listed here:

Italy
-Where the T's start, the tiles inside the building
-The bricks in the sun-lit tunnel
-The dark brick behind the fruit stand

Havana
-Tile on the second floor
-Table in the hostage room
-Brick in the inner courtyard has a pink shine to it

Office
-Obvious things like monitors, picture frames, whiteboards
-New, white painted office walls
-Garage walls
-Concrete garage floor (shiny due to ice)

I wouldn't say almost everything is shiny or ice-like on my screen... I only count a handful of textures in each level that shine. Are you seeing more shiny textures than I've listed? If so, which ones? Also, I noticed that running in DX8.1 mode, even the benches in the Office level are quite shiny... are you seeing that? When I run it normally in DX9 mode, the benches aren't shiny at all and are completely flat-shaded.

-UnmarkedOne

 

[Neutrino]

I hope they fix this. I'm tired of the mirror like reflections on every surface using my dx8 card. I'll upgrade to dx9 eventually, but it would be nice they'd just fix it.

 

[UnmarkedOne]

I hope they fix this. I'm tired of the mirror like reflections on every surface using my dx8 card. I'll upgrade to dx9 eventually, but it would be nice they'd just fix it.

Agreed. It really shouldn't be like that in DX8, and I suspect it would be relatively easy to fix with a patch.

I'm assuming here that a huge percentage of HL2 customers will be running the game on DX8 cards. It's not like only a few people will see this... it's a major issue that I suspect will be fixed very soon, probably before HL2 is even released.

-UnmarkedOne

 

[SunshineRecorder]

I like the fact that in HL2, whether you're right up against a wall or 50 feet away, it's going to look like a wall, and in fairly high quality. That just wasn't always the case in Doom.
-UnmarkedOne

Oooh don't get me wrong here man, I love the texture in HL2... from a distance. But up close they don't look good. They sadly don't.

I agree with you on the DX thing. I mentioned it in the other thread but apparently nobody saw it cause they keep mentioning it.

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=833801&postcount=56

 

[SunshineRecorder]

i hope they turn down on the specular-mapping in the real HL2 singleplayer...
Sure.. CS:S needed a facelift.. but not this much..

DX9.. But still, those brick walls..
BAH.. it's not as bad as those shadows..
but almost everything is shiny/ice like..

See but, as you already know, not almost everything is shiny/ice like. It maybe be so on DX8, and it should be addressed for DX8 users anyways, but we can't talk about it in general terms as if it were an intrinsic CSS problem.

I understand how at first instance the bricks in the parking lot of office maybe bother some, but these parking lots usually have the bricks painted in glossy (it GLOWS!) , thick coats of OIL based paint.

You know what I mean? The other bricks (the brown normal ones) don't really shine on DX9.

 

[Mr. Redundant]

I have to say though... some people (my brother being one) actually like the shinyness.

 

[Eon Blue]

Dx8 looks better, lol.

 

[duke2]

Actually, in real life everything shines. It's just varies in subtllety. I love the way it's done in dx9, you might see a slight glint or light change in surfaces. DX9 looks pretty bad, and i'm guessing it's because it doesn't use a mask to determine where something is shiny and where its not.

 

[Robinhood_01]

you mean directX 8.1 looks bad cos it doesn't have the mask

 

[cliffe]

We've noted this. Thanks.

 

[Mr. Redundant]

We've noted this. Thanks.

coolio
while we have you here, might I ask why there is no speex codec in cs:s?

I really miss my speex

 

[Edge]

coolio
while we have you here, might I ask why there is no speex codec in cs:s?

I really miss my speex

FYI if you go back and look at all of Cliffe's post he never "re-visit's" a thread... or answers any questions asked of him publically so all of you can stop asking him questions. I am sure he would come around more if people stopped asking him stupid shit everytime he comes around.

Think about it... he cannot legally say anything regarding HL2 that is not public knowledge because of NDA's and he cannot say anything to the fans in case something changes it would be a PR nightmare. So he is always short and to the point

 

[mortiz]

after you've put it in DX8 mode how do you get it back to DX9!?

 

[duke2]

What Edge said.

Also, I imagine the fix for this would be having 2 different profiles in the vmt files, one for dx9 and one for dx8.1, where 8.1 would have around 25% the reflection/specular value.

Mortiz, I recall there being an auto-detect feature in the vid options, or some config utility that comes with CS:S ?

 

[Lanthanide]

Think about it... he cannot legally say anything regarding HL2 that is not public knowledge because of NDA's and he cannot say anything to the fans in case something changes it would be a PR nightmare. So he is always short and to the point

Not really. Just depends on the company.

He can't -really- say anything directly about HL2 due to valve's wish for secrecy, but he could still talk about some CS:S stuff if he chose to.

I frequently talked to one of the lead developers on Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction (the guy who wrote the entirety of the 1.10 patch, for anyone interested) and he shared a lot of stuff about how the game works with me and with others, and actually implemented some of my suggestions into the 1.08-1.10 patches.

So really, this is just his choice, and Valve's choice (although I doubt anyone else would care if Cliffe posted a few answers to questions on this forum - saves them getting emails).

 

[gweedodogg69]

At least u get to see shiny, stupid DX7 card...need to buy desktop cause laptop is suxor for HL2...it's ok for Diablo II though

 

[lans]

The bump-mapping is more pronounced in Direct x 8, than 9. Specular highlights look more subtle in dx 9, than dx 8.

 

[House]

Is there a way to correct the shiny look by either disabliing/enabling AA or something?

 

[VGJosh]

That's the way Direct X 8.1 is. If you want the more realistic effects you need 9. Is that not obvious?

 

[Llevar]

Is there a way to correct the shiny look by either disabliing/enabling AA or something?

cl_shiny 0

 

[House]

cl_shiny 0

:hmph:

 

[Mr. Redundant]

FYI if you go back and look at all of Cliffe's post he never "re-visit's" a thread... or answers any questions asked of him publically so all of you can stop asking him questions. I am sure he would come around more if people stopped asking him stupid shit everytime he comes around.

Think about it... he cannot legally say anything regarding HL2 that is not public knowledge because of NDA's and he cannot say anything to the fans in case something changes it would be a PR nightmare. So he is always short and to the point

I didnt notice that, because I have not read any of the threads he has posted in (except the one he did revisit multiple times, answering people's questions)

I was merely trying my luck.. since I have already e-mailed Rick with no response.
it was a quick question, to the point.. I only asked it because I thought it should have been an easy question to answer.

 

[Mountain Man]

It's a little hard to get a feel for the differences between DX8.1 and DX9 in the screenshots simply because they're not showing the same area from the same angle. In my opinion and based on the screenshots, both API's appear to render things a bit too shiney, like some cleaning lady went nuts with the furniture polish. A little detail shine here and there is good, but to the extent that we see in these maps.

At any rate, I'm glad a Valve representative acknowledged that they are aware of this. Here's hoping they actually bother to fix it.

 

[ShinRa]

That irritates me so much lol. Cliffe answers like one out of a billion questions, and then we don't hear from him for another week or two. Cliffe, you my friend, are a cock tease!

 

[UnmarkedOne]

We've noted this. Thanks.

That's really great to hear that the Valve guys are looking into this and actually care what is said on the forums. Thanks!

FYI if you go back and look at all of Cliffe's post he never "re-visit's" a thread... or answers any questions asked of him publically so all of you can stop asking him questions.

Actually that's usually true, but I think he does revisit from time to time, even if he doesn't answer. In my last thread about the Source graphics:

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=41994&highlight=unmarkedone

Cliffe posted twice, so he obviously came back and re-read the thread at least a few times.

after you've put it in DX8 mode how do you get it back to DX9!?

Hey mortiz, just:

Open Steam
Right-click CS:S
-> Properties
-> Launch Options
Type "-dxlevel 90" without the quotes

Now open the CS:S link as you usually would, and you'll be back to DX9 mode.

-UnmarkedOne

 

[Mr. Redundant]

Hey mortiz, just:

Open Steam
Right-click CS:S
-> Properties
-> Launch Options
Type "-dxlevel 90" without the quotes

Now open the CS:S link as you usually would, and you'll be back to DX9 mode.

-UnmarkedOne

alternatively you can bring down the console from in-game and type:

mat_dxlevel 90