Team Fortress 2 Update: Pyro Unsappin' Mah Sentry?

[Hectic Glenn]

​

[br]A small update has been released for Team Fortress 2 fixing demo replay issues, seeing fully cloaked spies and a major change for the TF2 community weapon, the Homewrecker[br]Released as part of the community contribute update for the Pyro, it is a sledgehammer which only used to do high damage to enemy buildings but now has the ability to knock off spy sappers from friendly buildings.[br]After testing, I've found they only require one hit, making it more effective at unsapping than the engineer wrench! (2 hits). TF2 Update.

 

[MJ12]

Cool, they've made the Pyro even more overpowered and geared towards casuals.

 

[Sheepo]

I'm upset.

 

[Eejit]

Pyro is even more of a support class now.

 

[chimpmunk]

Cool, they've made the Pyro even more overpowered and geared towards casuals.

Some cheese with your whine?

 

[Sheepo]

Seriously though, sapping was all we had against the pyro/engineer combo. There is now literally no way to take down an engi base that a Pyro with a brain cell is defending.

 

[Adabiviak]

Even though those pyros that do stick around to defend a sentry nest are rare, and rarer yet is the one who's adept at it, this will make them almost unstoppable (seriously though, after ~400 hours of TF2, I've seen like five who could pull it off well).

On the other hand, a modicum of teamwork on the opposing team will still chump this.

I do look forward to being able to leave my sentry behind and know that a spy can't throw his life away to the pyro just to get a sapper on it.

 

[MJ12]

This makes Spies even more useless now. As if we didn't already have enough running around trying to backstab Heavies and Snipers; now we won't even have an excuse to yell at them for not taking out sentries.

 

[Maestro]

This makes Spies even more useless now. As if we didn't already have enough running around trying to backstab Heavies and Snipers; now we won't even have an excuse to yell at them for not taking out sentries.

Useless in theory, but they frustrate the shit out of heavies and snipers. Pissing enemy players off is an effective way to make them play poorly.

 

[Marler]

Pyro can now flame spies and protect engineers buildings. It's giving the pyro a bigger role in the team, i think it's a good idea

 

[Darkside55]

WHAT THE HELL IS THIS SHIT

YOU'VE GIVEN OUR #1 OPPONENT ANOTHER MEANS TO COUNTER US

JESUS WHY NOT JUST GIVE THE PYRO THERMAL GOGGLES, A REVOLVER-PROOF FORCEFIELD, AND ANTI-KNIFE ARMOR

WHY DON'T YOU JUST MAKE IT SO WHENEVER A PYRO EVEN LOOKS AT A SPY, CLOAKED, DISGUISED, OR OTHERWISE, HE INSTANTLY DIES

I MAD

 

[Acepilotf14]

Oh look, Valve continues to complicate and further their wonderful game into the realms of the buff/nerf MMO.

 

[Eejit]

What's the matter Darkseid, afraid of more of a challenge?

 

[Matorbogl]

Pyro is the jack of all trades, master of some now.

• He can put out fires
• He can shut down ubers
• He can harass Snipers
• He can catch Spies
• He can remove Sappers
• He can puff away projectiles and clear choke points
• He can still be useful on offense
• He can still be a good uber candidate

I really don't understand why Pyro's are so upset, they are now a huge credit to team instead of being the class of "flame and pray" or I should say "flame and hope the afterburn kills someone before they either get a medkit or a Medic saves them." The latter isn't as catchy.

 

[MaximusPM]

nice... at least one weapon against spies...

Spy players usually complaint about things that can be used against them, but they forget that the spy is the most overpowered class of all...

I usually play as pyro, and help engies a lot, but it get's me crazy when a spy kills an engie and leaves a sap in that lvl 3 sentry and I can do nothing... This will help A LOT!

 

[MFL]

Spies will be balanced again once they get their fire resistant/proof suits. Whenever that is.

I personally don't think pyro's are overpowered. They are pretty much mincemeat for heavies demos and soldiers, even if the pyro has a medic on em. They certainly have more utility than they did at the beginning though. From zero to awesome. I suggest those of you who are spies to just take advantage of the homewrecker to get more pyro kills.

JESUS WHY NOT JUST GIVE THE PYRO THERMAL GOGGLES, A REVOLVER-PROOF FORCEFIELD, AND ANTI-KNIFE ARMOR

They already have all that, just liquified and sprayed out of a gas nozzle, inferno of stealth hate.

nice... at least one weapon against spies...

....
What?

...

Seriously- what?

 

[MJ12]

Ohhhh, look who's heree, biggg surprise MISS BEST PYRO 2010.
"I think I should be nominated Miss Best Pyro because I can start fires well, and if I could change one thing about the world; I would give fires to everyone even the poor and homeless."
-Well guess what Miss Pyro, EVERYONE'S good at starting fires, friggin CAVEMEN started fires, okay?

 

[ríomhaire]

Interesting. They could change the P.D.Q. to being unable to remove sappers and have an offensive pyro-engineer combo.

 

[MFL]

Only if said engineers are extraordinarily quick with their shotgun when it comes to taking out sticky bombs.

(P.S. Demomen are retardedly strong at both offense and defense imo. But I have a biased opinion on the matter. <200 demo hours, D=)

Cool, they've made the Pyro even more overpowered and geared towards casuals.

you shut the ****ing hell up or else i will actually literally kill you (I have your address)

Before we all get into this, lemme just finish it: When you first pick up the game, the pyro is pretty easy to deal with. You can be more effective with it than any other class you play AT THAT point. That being said, you aren't really gonna do shit with it. Not a damn thing except get some lucky W+M1 kills off of other people also just ****ing around having fun. THAT being said, if you want to really play pyro, you gots to have teh skills, at which point, given the recent updates (MINICRIT REFLECTS WTF)(hell, even before the updates), you are a ridiculous killing machine.
Example: Once, far away from here, I saw two demons from the netherworld in a medic pyro combo crusade to literally take and hold the ground floor of our base in 2fort. There was no mercy. They didn't go for the intel, they were just after our blood, gibs, and tears. And they got it by the gallon. They literally got 68 kills before they died. In one run. All due to perfect form in reflecting, healing, shotgunning, flamethrowing, needlepitching, and chop chop chopping when they ran out of ammo. Why did they do this? Because they were hellcats starved for human suffering? No, because the rest of their team was holed up camping the hell out of their base, and they weren't having any of that shit. Fairly, poorly placed Level 3 sentries didn't make the situation better for my team, the pyro made significant use of his medics kritzkrieg to reflect the sentry (crit) rockets back at us. It was a nightmare and an inspiration all in one, and one of the best matches I ever had, dying to them was like being stabbed by Achilles.

 

[Higlac]

You should write a tf2 book.

 

[Acepilotf14]

MFL has it spot on.
Pyro is great because she's

GET THE **** OUT OF HERE TOASTER

 

[MJ12]

Pyro is great because she's fun to play even if you're a beginner or just having an off day, and when you actually have the skills to play Pyro well she's a ****ing beast

Haha.Because.Pyro.is.Casual.

Girl you know it's, girl you know it's, girl you know it's, girl you know it's, girl you know it's, girl you know it's trueee.

 

[Sheepo]

Spies will be balanced again once they get their fire resistant/proof suits. Whenever that is.

Leave here and never return.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

pointless update.

 

[MFL]

Leave here and never return.

Did I touch a nerve? The suits have been hinted at for a while now. As it is, spies are retreating 90% of their playtime.

 

[Acepilotf14]

Did I touch a nerve? The suits have been hinted at for a while now. As it is, spies are retreating 90% of their playtime.

quoting darkside

SPIES ARE NOT AN ASSAULT CLASS.

 

[Danimal]

Pyro should be a flaming homosexual asian imo

There's no asians in tf2 yet.

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

I don't like this...spies already has enough counters... not to mention that the new engy update will probably also throw in some new spy hate.

 

[Darkside55]

What's the matter Darkseid, afraid of more of a challenge?

Never, but you're mistaking the problem I have with this. I'm not angry that it makes it more difficult on me, I'm angry that this happened at all.

I've said it a million times before, y'know: these constant updates, tweaks, new weapons and abilities serves to do nothing more that try and pump artificial depth into what should be a relatively simple game. I've said before, TF2 was not designed to be a game that's simple to grasp, deep to master; it was designed to be a simple, casual game. I know, I know, nobody wants me to go on about its predecessors--I'm loathe to do it these days anyway--but let me just point out that in a decade of Team Fotress games preceding TF2, there wasn't a need to keep inflating the game with these ridiculous, flow-altering additions that serve to buff/nerf classes.

It's ridiculous, you know? These class updates continue to alter what a class is even for. This one in particular, with the homewrecker; the pyro is a class that can get up close and cause chaos with his flamethrower. It's disorienting and causes big damage, often leaving those who escape its wake seeking medical attention. In this, the pyro has no peer. Previous updates to him were okay because they followed with his class's design: the backburner and flaregun made sense, and the airblast being able to push people around and act as a counter to other pyros' flames was fine. In that ability, specifically, the pyro pretty much had all he needed.

Now, inexplicably, he's got a sledgehammer that smashes sappers? So not only is he doing his job, his skills have started crossing over into the engineer's job? If you look at something like heavy's sandvich, initially it was just something he could use to buff himself if there was no medic around. Now he can toss it out to people, substituting what a medic does. It's limited though; it takes a health pack to replenish. He could never fully compensate for what a medic does. The pyro, though, does what the engineer does except better, and there's no limit to it. He can run around waving his sledgehammer smashing sappers all day long. He smashes sappers better than the engineer! How does pyro know about breaking sappers? Who knows? Who cares? NOT VALVE!

From their motto of updates allowing you to "play classes in different ways," now you've got classes taking over jobs and skills reserved for other classes. You're throwing counter after counter into the mix without cause. It's true that nobody was going to use the homewrecker before, but the fact of the matter is the homewrecker shouldn't have been added to the game in the first place. Stop adding all this crazy shit in that so completely alters the balance of the game as to be off-putting.

Someone mentioned earlier about the spy getting the flame-retardant suit; even THAT shit is stupid. Previous pyro was a hard counter because he could weed out spies. Now he can weed out spies and destroy their sappers. New spy will be goddamn burn-proof, so you're going to have spies that get outed but don't start burning, pyros smashing up their sappers, where the hell does this end? Where do these "counters countering counters" stop? Jesus, what's the point in differentiating classes with strengths and weaknesses if all you're going to do is turn around a month later and say, "Hey guys! Class update! Now everybody can do everything and everything counters everything!"

spy is the most overpowered class of all

Shut the hell up, dude. "Oh, the spy backstabbed me, overpowered!" "Oh, he's sappin' mah sentry, overpowered!" "Oh, he can cloak, overpowered!"

Spies are piss weak and every trigger-happy yahoo can send a spy running. We do one thing, and that's act as saboteurs. We slip in, try to wreck some shit so that our team can progress, stab a guy here-and-there in moments of opportunity because they're in our way, or they're zoning out our team, or just to sow a little confusion among them. We can't get into firefights, we can't stand toe-to-toe with anybody, and most of the time we spend playing the game, if you're a good spy, it's trying hard as hell not to be seen. Overpowered? No, we aren't. We aren't overpowered, or underpowered. We do one goddamn job, and that's what we do well.

Which is the nature of Team Fortress. Not having classes do eight million kinds of jobs and acting as substitutes for other classes when the situation arises. I loathe hearing people talk about under- and overpowered because it spawns bullshit like the homewrecker and the flame-retardant suit. Constant buffs and nerfs in an effort to create balance where balance already existed.

 

[MFL]

there wasn't a need to keep inflating the game with these ridiculous, flow-altering additions that serve to buff/nerf classes.

It certainly wasn't a necessity. Nevertheless, Valve started it and it's here to stay. Sure, it might not have been needed, but for as much as it has disturbed the status quo, maybe that's not quite the bad thing you make it out to be. It's turned into a good business model on Valve's part to be sure. Keeps people playing, and all they are really attempting to do is to broaden the number of ways people can have fun. And for the most part, I think they've done a fabulous job. Sure they pissed off a lot of people with each and every single update, bit I'm certain a lot more people were having exactly what Valve intended: a blast with their new toys playing the same classes in slightly different ways. The unfortunate thing is where Valve doesn't foresee all of the negatives that will go along with a major change, but I'm willing to cut them some slack, there are dozens of official maps with a buttload of really popular modes of play. As for something being simple to play and hard to master, and opponents being over/under-powered, it really wouldn't matter if people complained about it or not. It would still be there, Valve would still have the data that shows it, and all of the changes that have been made would probably have still been made. The grand majority of competitive games in the world are not perfectly balanced. I would say all of them aren't, but I haven't played every game in the world. As long as white has a one percent statistical advantage over black, bitches are gonna bitch, and haters are gonna hate. But anyways, should any class be expanded to have it's roll overlap that of another with no consequence? Hell no, absolutely not, but I'm willing to try it out if it means I have to give up something major for it, especially if it significantly changes the way I am playing and brings new possibilities for awesome into the fold. That being said, it's been taken too far a time or two.

As an aside, not every class has to be an unstoppable killing machine, and if that's the way things go, this game will loose a lot of its charm.

 

[Warbie]

A nub class gets a buff against another nub class - cry me a river

 

[Darkside55]

That's another thing, though, this idea of "keeping TF2 fresh keeps people playing." If you look at Counter-Strike, the number one multiplayer FPS of all time in terms of number of people playing and hours played, there has never been a need to keep it "fresh" with constant additions. I'm not sure whether Valve intentionally designed TF2 around the model that they'd keep infusing life into it with additional content or if it came about as an afterthought because they were worried about sustained longevity, but no, it is as bad as I'm making it out to be.

I won't argue that it's a good business model; certainly people continue to purchase the game and even buy other games to obtain exclusive items for TF2, but it isn't a good model for gameplay.

The fact that you're willing to "cut Valve some slack" shows exactly how easily people will overlook the negative. "People are having fun with their new toys!" Well, sure they are, if they play one of the classes that received a new toy. You can look at the homewrecker thread on Steampowered and see everybody lol'ing it up over there at how they're screwing over spies. Of course they're having fun. Nobody on the spy side is having fun. Nobody on the spy side has much fun when it comes to pyros in the first place; which is why when the flame-retardant suit comes you're going to see the exact same outcry, in reverse, from pyros. This constant one-up over your enemies leads to no one ever winning in the long run.

The grand majority of competitive games aren't balanced, you're right. However, the challenge of competitive games is utilizing what you've got, not holding out in the hopes that the game maker will swoop down and grant you a shiny new plaything to help you. White might have an advantage over black, but do you expect the grand chess committee to say, "Ok, black now moves first! Also, bishops can now move vertically and horizontally like rooks, the queen cannot be captured by anyone other than another queen, and the king can do everything all the other pieces can do."

A nub class gets a buff against another nub class

implying all classes in TF2 aren't noob classes

 

[Warbie]

Scout, soldier, heavy, medic,demo and sniper say no

 

[MFL]

It could be a lot better. It could be a lot worse. For the most part they have done a good job with the class updates, mainly in the cases of classes that aren't as dependent of the abilities of their rivals. Namely, not spies. I gave them more leeway with my opinion earlier on in the cycle (especially before all of the community item bullshit). It would have been better if they had updated them all at the same time, but it wouldn't have happened if it was managed that way.

As long as every one-up you get over your enemies is balanced with an appropriate one-down that takes away your abilities in another area that is just as important as what you are gaining, it's cool. Like the pawns getting revolvers but loosing the ability to kill royalty and change to queens. The reason why chess doesn't get updated is because it's only one percent advantage, it's old as dust, it's simple and stable. TF2 is much more dynamic. And that analogy was more of me trying to say that as long as something is unbalanced, people are going to complain =/.

And don't play the game like your waiting for an update. Play the game like you don't even know it's ever gonna be updated. It shouldn't be about winning in the long run, or even winning when your class is on top (****ing Sagat whores), but enjoying the flow of the game no matter how gimp your favorite is at the moment (go go Saikyo).

p.s. Chess does get updated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_variant

...

**** it, some times I do miss the old days when things were simpler. The dance just isn't the same anymore.

 

[Darkside55]

Scout, soldier, heavy, medic,demo and sniper say no

You seem to have completely missed my sarcasm entirely.

Also you know, can I just say, every time you and I get into a discussion about TF2 and classes, I always end up wondering how good you really are. I'm just throwing that out there. I have a really intense desire to see what you can do, since you and I get on this topic a lot. We really need to play one of these days, you and I.

p.s. Chess does get updated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_variant

Variants !=updates

Anyway MFL, of course you don't play the game with the idea of updates in mind; who would do that? Once the updates are IN PLAY, however, that's when it's time to stop and say, "Whoa, wait a minute. There's bullshit going on here." Certain one-ups and one-downs need to be looked at and called out. In this particular case you're not even really giving up anything of value; you give up the axe. Whoop-de-shit, you trade in the axe, which if you were using the axtinguisher like any pyro should be, you trade in a couple flame->puff->axe kills. You trade in a situational melee thing for WRECKING THE SPY'S SHIT. You're crossing a class boundary at the cost of what, your kill score?

As to your analogy, yes, people will always complain, so let them complain. Don't try to address all their complaints and start fixing stuff that isn't broken. I mean, was anybody complaining that "Boy, I wish I could help out the engineer more as a pyro! I mean I already do a valuable service to the entire team through spy checks, but I wish I could do more." You know nobody was saying that. Valve just went ahead and gave a stupid community piece of junk a ridiculous buff for the sake of...well, for the sake of nothing, really.


Also I'm glad you made a fighting game analogy because I've been wanting to. Sagat might be top tier, but I still once wrecked his shit with an R4 Dan in CvS2. You make due with what you have, and you can still come out on top. You don't need buffs or to have the other character get nerfed, you just play to your strengths.

 

[MFL]

You're right.

Anyways, I haven't religiously played since last August. My laptop got stolen right out of my car. $2500 down the drain. Haven't been able to keep up with it since then, and since i'm shipping out to bootcamp in about a month, it's unlikely I'm going to be able to get back up to par.

As for how good I used to be... there really isn't an objective way to sum that. I was definitely good at some things, not particularly good at others. As good as league players? I don't really know. All I can do is give you unverifiable examples of things I used to be able to do. Stroll by the IO servers some time and ask around about AlbatrossofTime. There still might be some of the old players left that can attest to what happened. Lets see here.

Nade-jumping battlement to battlement to harass the snipers and hitting them with 95% accuracy mid-flight on the way down with pipebombs. Mid-flight trajectory adjustments to compensate for snipers aiming for you (because they learn quick or die, it takes a max of two pipes), the occasional random rocket or unfortunate sentry placement, and landing exactly where you plan to. (Little do most people know, Red/Blue bases ARE balanced in 2fort, but in a crazy kind of way. Blue has holes in the roof of the hayroom you can shoot explosives through, and Red has two more places to land.) It's a flattering thing when people call you out for cheating when your aim is good. It's also good when you can outmaneuver people who are actually using aimbots.
Scout rampages using only the bat. The regular bat. Only the bat, and being kill leader. I wasn't the best at it, I could just barely manage it. If you ever run into a man named El Samir, and he's playing scout, log off immediately and don't touch a computer for at least a week if you don't want nightmares and bruises from merely being in the same room as him. Surviving a good heavy minigun spinup as a scout with just a bat is an exhilarating experience, I highly recommend it.
The soldier dance. Oh god, how can I describe the wonders of the soldier dance without some kind of epic poetry.
I can probably still hold the bridge by myself with a blut against the entire offense. Just have to time the reloads right and make sure you're arcing exactly where you need to and stepping smooth. The unfortunate pyro underestimates the combat medic to his own demise.

Truth to tell, I played almost everything except sniper (because I have a long-standing vendetta to annihilate the souls of those who dare play sniper) and spy (I prefer the twitch to the patience, most times, and could accomplish base destruction just as well). Never took the time to master pyro. Heavy is just a slower soldier dance to me, with a lot less vertical and A LOT MORE BULLETS AND SPINNING. Engy is fun but only if you play it completely incorrectly.

If you really want to play me, wait about half a year and I should have a good computer setup again. Then wait another two weeks while I shrug off the rust. I hold you to it Darkside, we shall meet on the field of battle.

 

[Danimal]

I like how Warbie said Sniper isn't a noob class.



























:|

 

[Warbie]

Also you know, can I just say, every time you and I get into a discussion about TF2 and classes, I always end up wondering how good you really are.

I'm not bad - mid league clan level for a few years. Due to a new job, competitive play went out the window a year or so ago and now I just whore the sniper when time allows. If you ever want to see who can twitch the best, let me know

It's a shame you live on the wrong side of the pond - lag will always get in the way of an honest fight.

 

[Darkside55]

If you really want to play me

I was talking about playing Warbie. It's just 'cause he and I have had skill discussions about TF2 in the past.

But now I'd like to play you too. I'm quite guilty of wanting to see what people can do when they pique my interest. I haff ze battle lust.

Sucks about your laptop, bro. I myself don't have a comp that plays TF2 either; I end up going over to a friend's place and taking over his computer for a week so I can at least keep off most of the rust.

Also:

The soldier dance. Oh god, how can I describe the wonders of the soldier dance without some kind of epic poetry.

I do not even think poetry would suffice. The soldier dance is the most beautiful of all things, and cannot be put into words.

It's a shame you live on the wrong side of the pond - lag will always get in the way of an honest fight.

Indeed. But if we play sniper, I think it could still be fun. 200+ pinging as a sniper will bring back old 56k memories.

 

[Sheepo]

Did I touch a nerve? The suits have been hinted at for a while now. As it is, spies are retreating 90% of their playtime.

a) Wrong.

b) You disgust me.

c) Everything Darkseid said*

*To a slightly less hardcore degree, in some cases