Terri Schiavo dead.

[RakuraiTenjin]

I just think it's assholish that the husband is now getting her cremated, too. I mean, after everything, that's just one last blow to the parents and to Terri's Catholic beliefs.

As a Catholic, we can't be cremated. If we are through other people doing it to us or if our remains are recovered not whole, we're supposed to be entombed. The husband is having her cremated and put in a plot of his. That's just not right after it all ;/

 

[Ennui]

I don't really know where I stand on this one. I think she probably shouldn't have been killed, especially not in such an inhumane seeming way, but there isn't really much we can do now, is there.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Wow the South Park tonight was very insensitive at this, too.

I mean, it always is to whatever subject on purpose.. but come on... the same day? At least wait a little bit, damn.

 

[Ennui]

I was gonna say, South Park and sensitive are phrases/words that shouldn't be on the same page.

remember the passion of the christ one?

 

[Lemonking]

You guys should check out the new South Park Episode....
then think again about what guys are talking about.
episode 904 if you dont have Comedy Central.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

You guys should check out the new South Park Episode....
then think again about what guys are talking about.
episode 904 if you dont have Comedy Central.

I don't think heaven needed Terri Shiavo in order to play a handheld videogame system and command heaven's forces against Satan's hellspawn army at the pearly gates.

 

[Lemonking]

I don't think heaven needed Terri Shiavo in order to play a handheld videogame system and command heaven's forces against Satan's hellspawn army at the pearly gates.

lol thats not what I meant...stupid religous pricks calling this a murder....what If god intended her death 15 years ago...
And ..BY THE LOVE OF GOD DONT SHOW ME ON NATIONAL TV IF I EVER AM IN A VEGATITIV STATE...says all if you ask me...

 

[T.H.C.138]

I don't think heaven needed Terri Shiavo in order to play a handheld videogame system and command heaven's forces against Satan's hellspawn army at the pearly gates.

how do you know?

south park shows both sides typically as blind to the WHOLE issue,so both sides get slammed ..but lets get one thing straight...the show aired LAST NIGHT @ 10PM Pacific(VALVe)time...she died TODAY!!!

EDIT:I fully agree about the national TV thing...how f'n insensitive can you be? I would do my damndest to come back and haunt the bastards responsible!

and now the battle for custody of the body begins...why can't people just show some respect for others privacy?

 

[Lemonking]

how do you know?

south park shows both sides typically as blind to the WHOLE issue,so both sides get slammed ..but lets get one thing straight...the show aired LAST NIGHT @ 10PM Pacific(VALVe)time...she died TODAY!!!

wicked coindence
:O

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

lol thats not what I meant...stupid religous pricks calling this a murder....what If god intended her death 15 years ago...
And ..BY THE LOVE OF GOD DONT SHOW ME ON NATIONAL TV IF I EVER AM IN A VEGATITIV STATE...says all if you ask me...

I don't think it's a cookie cutter matter of religion though. There were neurologists that didn't quite agree she was in an unrecoverable permanent vegitative state, and video tapes show her showing emotion to certain people and such. Also the fact that she had no living will. And the manner of death- that it wasn't life support being cut and an immediate death as is most cases, but rather a slow starving/dehydration due to no feeding.

Had there been a will, none of this would've happened.

 

[bliink]

She is by no stretch the first person this has happened to; I would imagine at least +100 people have died similarly to her in the last few years.

This was just a media beat-up, a political tool.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

She is by no stretch the first person this has happened to; I would imagine at least +100 people have died similarly to her in the last few years.

This was just a media beat-up, a political tool.

Yes but for those people, the parents and the spouse I doubt were giving opposing statements about whether she'd want to, and they probably had wills (or else, everyone knew and agreed in the family with what they would want)

 

[DarkStar]

Yes but for those people, the parents and the spouse I doubt were giving opposing statements about whether she'd want to, and they probably had wills (or else, everyone knew and agreed in the family with what they would want)

Yes it was the heart-wrenching, DEEP, divisions between the parents and the husband that made this case *somewhat* unique.

 

[Apos]

I just think it's assholish that the husband is now getting her cremated, too. I mean, after everything, that's just one last blow to the parents and to Terri's Catholic beliefs.

As a Catholic, we can't be cremated. If we are through other people doing it to us or if our remains are recovered not whole, we're supposed to be entombed. The husband is having her cremated and put in a plot of his. That's just not right after it all ;/

What you just make up phony beliefs now just to further attack the husband? This restriction was lifted in 1963, and in 1997, it was changed further so that liturgy could be given even after cremation. You don't even know anything about your own religion.

She's being cremated so that she can be laid to rest in his families plot, yes. What's wrong with that? Families often fight over where someone is buried. What business is it of yours to judge who's right and who isn't in such situations? Do you want me to have a say in where you are buried?

 

[Apos]

Yeah. The 'courts' decide, against the will of the peoples representatives and the president. This further highlights the fact that even local judges hold far too much power int his country.

Uh, yeah, all those liberal judges. Except not. Almost all were Republican appointed judges. Greer was a Republican judge and also a Southern Baptist! Pryor is one of the most conservative judges in the country. And yet all ruled the way they did because it was in accordance with the law. Congress outstepped its Constitutional bounds, and even conservative legal experts admit it and opposed it (being that it's totally inconsistent with the legal philosophy they use to oppose court rulings like Roe). The fact is, what people wanted from judges in this case WAS to be activist and go outside the law. They didn't. They stood up for the law. Against the will of representatives? The law that the judges were following was passed by the representatives in Florida.

 

[Apos]

How could they not know the details of the case? I'm constantly getting "blind-sided" by that shit everyday on the communist news network, and so are pretty much everybody else. Unless you are purposely ignoring it, you cannot possibly be unawares of whats going on.

Only if you listen to lies made up in total ignorance of the actual facts of the case.

Abuser: I disagree.

Evidence, please? This accusation was made and investigated and thrown out of court WITH PREJEDUCE. The doctors Michael sued for malpractice had every reason to make his accusation so as to defend themselves, but they couldn't support it. Unless the entire state of Florida conspired to cover up the abuse, this dog won't hunt. She was bulimic.

Adultuer: That doesnt give him, who felt it would be appropriate to get into a relationship during the time he was married with her, the right to kill her.

Good grief. Her FAMILY encouraged him to date, to move on since at the time, they didn't dispute that Terri was not going to recover. But seeing other women after your wife is destroyed does not under any law, magically dissolve your guardianship.

It should be her familys responsibility.

It was. By law, he is her family: her most immediate family, in fact.

Murder: She didnt refuse it. Her family didnt. He did. Why? He had a "promise" to keep.

He wasn't the only one who confirmed she had these views or the only evidence that held that they were consistent with her known values and personality.

Honestly, I get sick of people putting so little value into peoples lives. You're the kind of person who would want to kill Helen Keller (yes, even though she's a communist, I'm using an example here), because her life wasnt "worth living". Oh she was blind deaf and dumb, her life must not be worth anything.

Nonsense. Hellen Keller was not anything like Terri Schiavo. This is a vicious, painfully stupid straw man.

Would you shoot a two legged dog because you cant play frisbee with it? No. Life has more value than that, which is IMPOSSIBLE to get through to you people.

To put into context what an asshole Michael Schiavo is, he wont even let her brother into the hospital room to watch her die, or see her funeral. Hes a ****ing asshole.

Bullcrap. No one knew that she was about to die during the time that she did. Michael had ever reason to ask for time alone with her, and she died during that time.

And her brother barely ever visited her until media circus began. Michael's lover visited her more often!

 

[gh0st]

All the points are moot. Nobody knows that she wanted to die. Nobody knows what shes thinking. You are all grasping at straws as I am.

My question is simply what harm is being done keeping her alive? If she can neither protest 'life' or demand death, who is he to kill her? Frankly I dont care about Terri Schiavo, and nobody else should, but theres utterly no reason to kill her. Everything this case is based upon is bullcrap to begin with. Nobody knows she wanted to die. No one can prove it. If you kill someone without proving they wanted to, its murder. You can wave all the mentally damaged bullshit as much as you want, it wont change my mind because life supercedes that. I find all your assertions that I am stupid highly ironic, given that you all call me a barbarian for supporting the war, yet when I support one woman I am stupid.

Michael had ever reason to ask for time alone with her, and she died during that time.

If you were dying, I suspect you'd want your family, not just your "ex" "husband" by your side.

Evidence, please?

Who needs evidence? He killed her. Thats abuse. Its not my fault you dont value life, clearly you dont: you believe killing babies is right, and you believe killing "mere cripples" (as someone so aptly called them) is alright, which is stupid.

By the way - I dont give a shit about liberal or conservative or democrat or republican judges. I never claimed they were liberal, you quoted that yourself.

Good grief. Her FAMILY encouraged him to date, to move on since at the time, they didn't dispute that Terri was not going to recover. But seeing other women after your wife is destroyed does not under any law, magically dissolve your guardianship.[/qoute]
Hm. Isnt that adultury? Her family also has faith she will recover - likely she wont, but if I used your idiotic mindset, we'd just kill all our problems.

 

[Pogrom]

All the points are moot. Nobody knows that she wanted to die. Nobody knows what shes thinking. You are all grasping at straws as I am.

Who needs evidence? He killed her. Thats abuse. Its not my fault you dont value life, clearly you dont: you believe killing babies is right, and you believe killing "mere cripples" (as someone so aptly called them) is alright, which is stupid.

Nobody knows what she was thinking for the same reason people can't look at her corpse and know what she is thinking now.

There was nothing that could think. It is akin to someone having half of their head blown off. The brain functions that control breathing, heart pumping and digestion are still there. But the rest of the brain is quite simply gone. Quite simply, she was no longer a person (according to medical science).

Therefore the question about valuing life is a moot one. Do you value the life in the body if there is no brain? Or vice versa? There have been reports that suggest that after decapitation the brain can retain some cognition for up to 40 minutes. Decapitated heads have been known to blink and smile in this time. Ditto for Schiavo.

 

[gh0st]

"Person" can mean alot of things. Her person means her body. According to dictionary.com she is alive. Let me ask you this question. Why are you all so intent on killing her? What do you gain from it?

 

[Apos]

All the points are moot. Nobody knows that she wanted to die. Nobody knows what shes thinking. You are all grasping at straws as I am.

Nonsense. A court of law, ruling on matters of fact, found that there was clear and convincing evidence that she would not want to have been turned into a meat puppet and prolonged indefinately for no medical reparative purpose. The appeals court, re-iterating that the standard should be as high as possible in such cases, agreed. All according to the law laid out in the Florida constitution and statutes.

My question is simply what harm is being done keeping her alive?

It's against her wishes (and the wishes of any sane person, IMHO). Not wanting to be kept as a zombie isn't against life. It's understanding what makes life important, and not clinging to it for no purpose out of fear and denial.

If you kill someone without proving they wanted to, its murder.

You are like Kerebos: totaly ignorant of the law and probably even the facts of the case, but happily willing to demonstrate this ignorance.

You can't legally kill someone, even if they say they want it.

But, you cannot treat someone, even to keep them alive, if they would not want the treatment. You can't keep someone on life support against their wishes. So the only issue here is whether or not being maintained like that was in keeping with her wishes. The court found that she would not have wanted that. The indepedant guardian who Jeb Bush assigned to investigate the matter agreed. Even her parents barely try to deny it: instead they said under oath that they don't care what her wishes were. They'd keep her alive even if it meant sawing her arms and legs off. Litterally.

You can wave all the mentally damaged bullshit as much as you want, it wont change my mind because life supercedes that. I find all your assertions that I am stupid highly ironic, given that you all call me a barbarian for supporting the war, yet when I support one woman I am stupid.

I never called you a barbarian for supporting the war. I'm not 100% against the war, though I do think it was sloppily mismanged for political reason, and sold on dishonest premises. I've supported removing Saddam for humanitarian reasons since long before it became a political winner for Republicans as they searched around for like the 50th excuse they could think of when WMD didn't pan out.

You aren't supporting one woman. You are demanding that she be kept alive for no reason other than some twisted idea of life amounting only to the physical operation of tissues. That's a sad, empty, anemic definition of life IMHO.

She wasn't just brain damaged. She wasn't like a mentally retarded person (this comparison is downright vile: mentally retarded people are not brain damaged or lacking in cogntive function!). She isn't simply crippled. Her higher brain is largely MISSING. She has had a FLATLINE EEG. She has not been shown to be consistently responsive to any external stimuli.

If you are in denial about those issues, then I acn understand why you might be confused about these issues. But once you accept reality, it becomes ridiculous to claim that you are fighting for her, as ridiculous as fighting for someone who is brain dead.

If you were dying, I suspect you'd want your family, not just your "ex" "husband" by your side.

There were times when each got to have time alone with her. Given that both sides hated each other's guts, it's hard to see what having them in the same room glaring at each other would be for.

Who needs evidence? He killed her. Thats abuse.

It's legally and ethically a refusal of indefinate life support, not abuse. You can make that hyperbolic accusation, but it's legal nosnense.

Its not my fault you dont value life, clearly you dont: you believe killing babies is right,

You are a liar. I am not in favor of infanticide, and indeed I am generally against late term abortion.

and you believe killing "mere cripples" (as someone so aptly called them) is alright, which is stupid.

You know, you can make arguments without lying. I've never said anything about killing cripples. Terri Schiavo is not crippled. She's in a PVS.

By the way - I dont give a shit about liberal or conservative or democrat or republican judges. I never claimed they were liberal, you quoted that yourself.

You wanted judges to make up the law, and rule as they pleased. Trying to portray that as some sort of "judges are too powerful" nonsense is hypocritical. The judges in this case were RESTRAINED in their interpretation of the law.

But then, you wouldn't know that, since I doubt you even know the relevant laws they had to work with.

Hm. Isnt that adultury?

Whether it is or it isn't, it's irrelevant. Adultery doesn't change guardianship status, and even if it did, this situation is pretty radically different from adultery, given that his wife was gone and wasn't coming back and even her parents thought it appropriate that he date other women (before of course, they changed their tune and tried to use this against him).

Or are you suggesting that Michael Schiavo should have continued to have sex with Terri's body?

Her family also has faith she will recover

I'm not sure about this. They only really started claiming this after it became necessary for gaining public support for keeping her alive.

likely she wont, but if I used your idiotic mindset, we'd just kill all our problems.

Problems? The only "problem" was artificially keeping Terri's body alive for 15 years for no medical or reparative purpose. She wasn't a problem, she was a human being with a life that was ended by a terrible destruction of her brain, but her body was kept alive via modern medicine.

In medicine, it's important not to flog a corpse. It's important because at some point, this insane obsession with judging life simply by keeping the heart beating or the organs working becomes a demeaning vision of what life is. We have to respect life by acknowledging that people can die. As medical technology improves, we will be faced with this problem more and more often, to the point where we can prolong lives forever, long after there is no quality or mental function left.

My wife works on a palliative care ward. I would bet that someone like you couldn't spend two minutes on that ward, so in denial do you seem to be about the realities of life and death.

 

[Danimal]

Except she was a vegetable who wouldnt know the diffrence between life, death, hunger or pain.

I thought it was confirmed that she wasn't in a constant state of vegetation :|

 

[DarkStar]

I thought it was confirmed that she wasn't in a constant state of vegetation :|

Oh lord no. There is zero agreement or confirmation about ANYTHING in this case.

 

[Apos]

I thought it was confirmed that she wasn't in a constant state of vegetation :|

No. See was classic PVS. Her parents were delusional, and they found some doctors that would back them up, but most were quacks, and the ones that weren't were activists that couldn't back up their claims with scientific evidence or overcome evidence to the contrary.

 

[Apos]

Some more facts on the latest slander aimed at Michael Schiavo:

For the last several years, if not since she the legal fight began, her husband and her parents had a gentleman's agreement that they would not be in the room at the same time. They hated each other, and figured that was easiest. Michael was just "starting his shift" and happened to win the coin toss to be the one in the room when she died a little bit more.

Of course the parents, being *****, are using this as an opportunity to attack him, and get a little bit more of that sweet, sweet attention.

 

[DarkStar]

Of course the parents, being *****, are using this as an opportunity to attack him, and get a little bit more of that sweet, sweet attention.

Okay, Apos. Now you're becoming as venemous and retaliatory as the conservative crazies in the case.

The parents obviously loved their daughter and wanted her to live, they'd fought for 15 years without much media attention until the last two or three. This episode was turned into a circus by the media alone, not by any active solicitation on the part of the Schindlers.

I agree with you that it was probably best to let her go, but it is a tragedy all around. Vicously attacking the parents in such a manner is just as ruthless and cruel as slandering Michael Schiavo.

 

[Dr. Freeman]

Except she was a vegetable who wouldnt know the diffrence between life, death, hunger or pain.

one of the things that bother me so much about people.. whether they are doctors or genally anyone really, is that nobody but the person going through this state really knows whether there is a difference between life, death, hunger or pain in said state.

yeah we trust doctors to give an educated opinion but in the end, they are still just like u and i.

unless people have been through what this woman went through, theres not a soul that can claim (for 100% certainty) theres no pain, hunger or whatever rather thing people say the woman did not feel.

 

[Apos]

The parents obviously loved their daughter and wanted her to live, they'd fought for 15 years without much media attention until the last two or three.

National media attention? No. But people in Florida have probably heard more statements from the Schindlers than they have from almost any other person in recent history. From the start, her parents solicited a wide range of media methods and foundations to spread their message.

This episode was turned into a circus by the media alone, not by any active solicitation on the part of the Schindlers.

Unfortunately, that's not true. It was their circus: they invited it, they drove it on. They were the ones who released video and audio of her to the public: things I can't imagine she ever would have wanted the public to see. They lobbied for as much media access as they could get. They slandered their son-in-law every chance they could get. They gave constant press-conferences. They lobbied Jeb and Congress. They attacked all the judges and law enforcement officials.

Agian, they did this most likely in the hopes that it would help them win out over Michael and save Terri. But it is silly to deny that this is something that was just thrust upon them.

I'm not saying that they did it out of base motives. But it's silly to claim that they did not deliberately help create a media circus to further their end of the story.

 

[Polaris]

One human is dead. What to do now? Nothing ! No tears.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

What you just make up phony beliefs now just to further attack the husband? This restriction was lifted in 1963, and in 1997, it was changed further so that liturgy could be given even after cremation. You don't even know anything about your own religion.

She's being cremated so that she can be laid to rest in his families plot, yes. What's wrong with that? Families often fight over where someone is buried. What business is it of yours to judge who's right and who isn't in such situations? Do you want me to have a say in where you are buried?

Yes, the point is that cremation is useless then, as you need to entomb the body, most cremations are for people to keep in their home.

It's none of my business and I can't 'make' them do anything, but I have an opinion on it, all I said was that after everything that happened, it looks as if he's just hurting the parents even more so. They are people too, and love her dearly, if I was him I'd go with how they'd want her to be laid to rest.

 

[KoreBolteR]

terri schiavo is dead. r.i.p because you have waited a long time to be killed.

she was a prisoner inside that lifeless body, who would want to live like that?
but tbh i dont know wether she should be cremated or buried or where she should be rested.

bloody hell cant people just stop arguing about this woman.

 

[No Limit]

Some more facts on the latest slander aimed at Michael Schiavo:

For the last several years, if not since she the legal fight began, her husband and her parents had a gentleman's agreement that they would not be in the room at the same time. They hated each other, and figured that was easiest. Michael was just "starting his shift" and happened to win the coin toss to be the one in the room when she died a little bit more.

Of course the parents, being *****, are using this as an opportunity to attack him, and get a little bit more of that sweet, sweet attention.

I actually believe the courts ordered that they not be in the same room at the same time. Michael actually left right before she died to give the parents access; yeah, what a dick :upstare:

 

[Solaris]

Micheal is now not allowing them to even attend her funeral. This shows what a monster he really is.

 

[No Limit]

Micheal is now not allowing them to even attend her funeral. This shows what a monster he really is.

Does anyone see a pattern here? These people will keep claiming these things without any back up, they ignore everything that's been said before and will continue these idiotic attacks on this man that took good care of his wife.

Let me ask you solaris, do you have any clue why he wants to cremate her which like you say will not give access to the funeral for her parents? Let me guess, the only explaination you have is that he is a monster?

Taken from your site (I'm guessing your site since it is in your sig):

After refusing to allow Terri Schiavo's parents to be at her bedside to comfort her as she died, Michael Schiavo has now plumbed a new low. This is a lie

He's designated a secret location near Philadelphia to bury Terri's ashes so her parents don't show up.

This after 15 years of locking Terri Schiavo in one room and not even allowing her to go outside and sit in the sunshine.

Can it be any more clear about which parties were on the RIGHT and WRONG sides of this entire issue?

Micahel Schiavo is a monster and a murderer. He will not be going to the same place as Terri Schiavo when he dies.

Honestly, you and people like you make me sick.

 

[KoreBolteR]

she wanted to die. michael knew this.

honestly, would any of us want to live like terri did?

cos i would rather die than live like that.

 

[ray_MAN]

I am happy she's dead. Not in "that" way, but now her parents don't have to watch their [vegetable] daughter be like that. What we saw was a classic case of parental protection. The parents didn't want to see their daughter die, so the denied her being a vegetable.

 

[The Mullinator]

If heaven exists and those parents get into it then I am pretty certain there would be some major family squabbles between Terri and her parents.

I really don't think Terri would appreciate what her parents were doing.

 

[Solaris]

She could respond, I saw a video of her smiling and responding, she responed to her mother and nurses. Micheal prevented threapy on terri, and has always wanted her dead.

 

[KoreBolteR]

She could respond, I saw a video of her smiling and responding, she responed to her mother and nurses. Micheal prevented threapy on terri, and has always wanted her dead.

how can sitting in a chair, only forms of responding is smiling be any life?!

i would rather die.

she would have rather died, than live like that!

 

[The Mullinator]

She could respond, I saw a video of her smiling and responding, she responed to her mother and nurses. Micheal prevented threapy on terri, and has always wanted her dead.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7222

Quill says that in PVS patients, the base of the brain still functions so that some reflex reactions remain. For example, “if you touch their eyes with Kleenex, they blink”. If a lot of video was shot and, taken together “it appears the person is responding”, he says.

 

[No Limit]

She could respond, I saw a video of her smiling and responding, she responed to her mother and nurses. Micheal prevented threapy on terri, and has always wanted her dead.

Again, you are making me sick with your stupid ass remarks about Micheal (sorry to be so frank). Reread what I said in previous posts in this thread. No she did not respond, that video was edited out of hours of tape, that one moment was a couple seconds out of hours of her doing and responding to nothing. If Micheal is such a monster why did he refuse to accept 10 million that was offered to him to keep her alive, why did he allow the parents to see her on a regular basis when the courts rules he didn't have to, why did he leave her room right before she died to allow her parents to see her, why has he not attacked her parents in any way when they continue to demonize him, why has he continually avoided trying to turn this in to a media circus which the parents did, why was he in that hospital pretty much 24/7 after the tube was removed leaving the room on a regular basis to allow the parents to visit, why has he taken care of her so good that in 15 years she hasn't had a bed sore... I could go on forever but I will stop it here. Your statements, which you have no right to make, are making me sick to my stomach. You know nothing about this family and you know nothing of the suffering they are going through.