The delay does not make sense (to me)

[puntloos]

I've been following the discussion about the source leak and its effects for ages now, and there is one BIG leap in reasoning that I am still unable to follow.

Halflife 2's source (or part thereof) is stolen. This is bad, obviously, In the worst case scenario, some of the innovative ideas and coding solutions done in this piece of work will be used by people who don't have the moral or intellectual right to use it. Also, hackers could perhaps find cheating loopholes easier.

Im with you so far. But WHY does this mean that halflife 2 needs to be delayed because of this? If anything its release should be sped up, shouldnt it?

Every piece of innovation in the HL2 engine is now out in the open, the hard work done by the Valve guys can now be used by anyone willing to throw ethics out of the window. However... the key thing in that sentence IMHO is can be used not has been used.

Suppose Evil Hacker from Serbia company EvilSoft is -right now- hard at work at implementing all cool ideas from HL2 into their game, wouldnt it be in Valve's best interest to release HL2 NOW, while the ideas are still new, while we haven't seen cool technologies 1,2,3 and 4 in every budget title from EvilSoft and others out there? Giving EvilSoft a chance to release 'QuarterLife' in March will certainly replace all the 'wow' and 'thats so cool'-s Valve had hoped for and deserved with an 'Oh, we've seen that before. EvilSoft Rocks.'

I haven't read every post on boards like these, obviously, but until someone has convincing arguments I have to conclude (poor Valve) that they just grabbed this (undeserved, obviously) misfortune as a way of soothing the community 'outrage' over the delay of HL2, which was going to happen regardless of the source theft.

 

[Dagobert]

But WHY does this mean that halflife 2 needs to be delayed because of this?

It doesn't. The game is unfinished.

 

[Sparky the Fox]

hl2 is not being delayed solely because of the hacker. it just wasn't done on the 30th.

 

[maleficarus™]

Originally posted by puntloos
I've been following the discussion about the source leak and its effects for ages now, and there is one BIG leap in reasoning that I am still unable to follow.

Halflife 2's source (or part thereof) is stolen. This is bad, obviously, In the worst case scenario, some of the innovative ideas and coding solutions done in this piece of work will be used by people who don't have the moral or intellectual right to use it. Also, hackers could perhaps find cheating loopholes easier.

Im with you so far. But WHY does this mean that halflife 2 needs to be delayed because of this? If anything its release should be sped up, shouldnt it?

Every piece of innovation in the HL2 engine is now out in the open, the hard work done by the Valve guys can now be used by anyone willing to throw ethics out of the window. However... the key thing in that sentence IMHO is can be used not has been used.

Suppose Evil Hacker from Serbia company EvilSoft is -right now- hard at work at implementing all cool ideas from HL2 into their game, wouldnt it be in Valve's best interest to release HL2 NOW, while the ideas are still new, while we haven't seen cool technologies 1,2,3 and 4 in every budget title from EvilSoft and others out there? Giving EvilSoft a chance to release 'QuarterLife' in March will certainly replace all the 'wow' and 'thats so cool'-s Valve had hoped for and deserved with an 'Oh, we've seen that before. EvilSoft Rocks.'

I haven't read every post on boards like these, obviously, but until someone has convincing arguments I have to conclude (poor Valve) that they just grabbed this (undeserved, obviously) misfortune as a way of soothing the community 'outrage' over the delay of HL2, which was going to happen regardless of the source theft.

I agree with you on this one. It is irrelevant that the source code was stolen. It is copyrighted so whoever tries to use its tech will be sued, pretty much that simple really. As for people making cheats? Well that is ALSO irrelevant as cheats will pop up about as fast or faster then Valve can make a patch for them regardless if the source code was seen or not. The only negative side effect that I can think of stealing the code would be that now cheats will be made and ready when game goes gold. If the code was never seen then it would take a few extra months for the cheats to hit the streets...

BUT there can be good from this though. The cheats will be ready for uploading before the game goes gold and the very people that made the game can have a peek at them and make the appropriate patch for them too! So really at the end of the day no harm really done. Unless you want to take a chance actually using the engine in a game. But if you do that I strongly suggest you have a lawyer on standby

:flame:

 

[frances_farmer]

man stop picking on Evilsoft, they make some cool games. Just cos they're from Serbia.

 

[Mcn@sty]

Well as stated 20 x 9999 times b4, valve have not yet confirmed the delay so as it stands now, we are waiting on an announcement from valve...

 

[perrkele]

What about making sure that people cannot use possible security holes in the source? I'm not just talking about online cheats, I mean would it (theoretically) be possible for someone to hack into your computer while you're playing HL2 now that they have the source code and know how it works? I'm sure that would be an issue requiring serious reworking of the code, if it indeed is possible, that is.

 

[Necro]

no one is saying its delayed, the only person is vivendi and we know they lie and are full of shit.

i'd trust the hacker more than vivendi.

 

[A2597]

well...it DOES delay it a little bit, mainly because they need to protect against hacks better, and change the CDKey info, since that would be in the source. weather that means an additional four months? who knows...no one yet, valves still working on a new schedual so they can give us an idea...

 

[Sparky the Fox]

no one is saying its delayed, the only person is vivendi and we know they lie and are full of shit.

really. is that why vivendi said that it wouldn't come out on the 30th? sure, valve said that there were "communication problems" and that it would, but here we are past the 30th, with valve's latest statement being that it wasn't done (check the info from valve thread) by then. why trust vivendi? their being a game publisher doesn't give them any realistic ideas about when games might come out relative to their current states in production, right?. i mean, it's just their entire purpose to publish games.

seems to me the only company that was proven wrong about the release date so far was valve.

i personally think this is all for publicity. they had five years to work on it, and they repeatedly said that they wanted to make sure that they had a release date they knew it would be done by, rather than pulling a "when it's done". so the release date arrives, and it's not out. but lo, a mysterious hacker steals code from gabe, who apparently, through uncanny lack of foresight, decides to use an internet connection on a laptop connected to the entire development network. though the hacker was supposedly angry at valve for not releasing the game the 30th, he decided to hack in almost three weeks early (gabe's computer started acting funny the 11th) to steal what obviously is not even recent code. preemptive retribution? you'd think that a hacker who wanted the game badly enough to steal it from the company who's making it would be smart enough to check the dates of the files. but no, he instead gets something that appears to be over 6 months old.

i find it very, very hard to believe that any self-respecting game company would over-look such basic precautions as not using the internet on the network which accesses every development computer, or the computer where the game files are stored.

i think this is one huge publicity stunt, and a very well-done one, too.

 

[drjolt]

Originally posted by Sparky the Fox
but lo, a mysterious hacker steals code from gabe, who apparently, through uncanny lack of foresight, decides to use an internet connection on a laptop connected to the entire development network.
[...]
i find it very, very hard to believe that any self-respecting game company would over-look such basic precautions as not using the internet on the network which accesses every development computer, or the computer where the game files are stored.

Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity. Where did Gabe work for many years before starting Valve? Microsoft. I find it very easy to believe that Valve's security was/is terrible.

The delay makes sense on a number of levels:
1) They need to finish the game.
2) They need to rework the netcode.
3) They need to come up with some new weapons, characters, etc. since all the stuff they had held back from demoing at E3 is now in the open.

There is one real casualty here: steam. Can you imaging giving your credit card details to a system which was designed by a company that can't even protect it's core intellectual property? I can't. I'll buy & play HL2, but only if I can do so without passing personal information to Valve.

 

[tkato]

omg ppl u are sick valve announced that the game was finished before 30 sept but they just got to the duplicate stage u think if will give them a month they acctuly script all the game? criest ur talking deep shit

 

[jat]

I belive valves security was fine, the hacker got in via the holes in microsoft explorer, microsoft new about em realised a few ptaches THAT DIDNT WORK, vole stated this and listed all the holes. Later one we find out that valve been hacked via the holes in internet explorer. Valve I belive is sueing microsft for their inability to do anything.

So dont blame valve.

anyway, its not like we have been waiting for the game 5 years, we been waiting under 6 months, thats when we knew they had been working on it, cant you guys wait abit longer?

And the source code has to be worked on to stop cheats since its alot easier for them and alot harder for valve to stop em...

 

[Gaemon82]

Originally posted by tkato
omg ppl u are sick valve announced that the game was finished before 30 sept but they just got to the duplicate stage u think if will give them a month they acctuly script all the game? criest ur talking deep shit

no, they never told anybody the game was done! the only thing we heard from Valve was after delay: the game isn't finished. now i realize you might not understand it, so i will repeat myself: IT ISN'T FINISHED. where do you get your info?

 

[Dougy]

Originally posted by puntloos
I've been following the discussion about the source leak and its effects for ages now, and there is one BIG leap in reasoning that I am still unable to follow.

Halflife 2's source (or part thereof) is stolen. This is bad, obviously, In the worst case scenario, some of the innovative ideas and coding solutions done in this piece of work will be used by people who don't have the moral or intellectual right to use it. Also, hackers could perhaps find cheating loopholes easier.

Im with you so far. But WHY does this mean that halflife 2 needs to be delayed because of this? If anything its release should be sped up, shouldnt it?

Every piece of innovation in the HL2 engine is now out in the open, the hard work done by the Valve guys can now be used by anyone willing to throw ethics out of the window. However... the key thing in that sentence IMHO is can be used not has been used.

Suppose Evil Hacker from Serbia company EvilSoft is -right now- hard at work at implementing all cool ideas from HL2 into their game, wouldnt it be in Valve's best interest to release HL2 NOW, while the ideas are still new, while we haven't seen cool technologies 1,2,3 and 4 in every budget title from EvilSoft and others out there? Giving EvilSoft a chance to release 'QuarterLife' in March will certainly replace all the 'wow' and 'thats so cool'-s Valve had hoped for and deserved with an 'Oh, we've seen that before. EvilSoft Rocks.'

I haven't read every post on boards like these, obviously, but until someone has convincing arguments I have to conclude (poor Valve) that they just grabbed this (undeserved, obviously) misfortune as a way of soothing the community 'outrage' over the delay of HL2, which was going to happen regardless of the source theft.

the games no where near finished.

thats why its delayed.

 

[Headwires]

/: hope it comes out this year :\

 

[FoB_Ed]

the games no where near finished.

thats why its delayed.

sure it is, the beta that's going around dates before E3

 

[uncle-argyle]

Well what vivendi or valve software said about the release date is pure marketing! And there is no crime in that! I always had a feeling it was not gonna be released on the dates they had given.It's simple they need to build HL2 hype! people should not really be mad at them, becuase it cost a shit load of money to pay the bills. and all the pre-orders give them rough estimates on there total gross sales for the US and the rest of the world before the offical release.
I believe that they needed the time to polish the final release product of HL2! which by the looks of it was not even gonna be ready until the latest fall 2004!
That Is just a guess considering that the leaked source was truly the latest version of what they have right now.

So why argue a point that is pointless? Just let the guys finish HL2 and I am sure it will be worth the wait.

 

[puntloos]

To make things (more) clear: I only don't like being lied to. To recap:

- I don't even know if Vivendi said there is a delay and it is due to the hacking. (but I do assume so in this case).
- I don't know if Valve has, or will back up this statement, so Im not pointing fingers at them (yet)
- I don't mind games companies delaying release dates etc etc. That's how it works. Even if you dont make a deadline I don't want to play a 90% finished game. Operation Flashpoint being a bad reminder. AWESOME game, but version 1.0 was horrible.

Its just that delaying a game because of a hacker stealing code sounds to me like a bogus argument (i.e. a lie) and that part I dont like. The bit about perhaps having to change the anti-piracy parts makes a little sense, however -every- game ever released has been cracked 1-2 days after inital release. Speeding this up to 0.5-1 days cause the hackers have the full source is irrelevant. (In fact, since most hacks are bytehacks anyway I doubt that having the source will significantly help hackers).

The only thing game companies can and should do is make multiplayer inaccessible for cracked games, and provided the protection that was in halflife wasn't structurally flawed (which Valve hoped to conceal by using 'security through obscurity) this should not impact the release in any way. Most systems just work by making 3 squillion possible keys, then getting (say) 100.000 keys out of there, put them in a database on the multiplayer server and put them on the actual game boxes/cd cases. The rest of the keys will flag a player as illegal the moment they try to join. This has not changed by stealing the source.

Stealing the CD key database after the numbers were put on the actual distributed CD's, now THAT would've cost valve dearly.

 

[Heleos]

There must not be that much to do on the actual game if they decided it best to delay it 4 days from launch. They were also sure in themselves that getting it done by the end of September was a realistic goal... until it got closer...

Delaying it 6 months more is sort of stupid though. The "We'll see" and "It'll be close coming down to the wire" comments from Valve sorta made it seem like the game was 95% done, and 5% takes 6 months to do? Ok...

 

[Saltpeter]

Re: Re: Re: The delay does not make sense (to me)

Originally posted by Schmudi
HL2 is finish and comes this YEAR

this beta is extrem old

Just saying that HL2 is finished because the beta dates before the E3 demo is a bit narrowminded. Valve has to fill securitygaps, translate it to numerous languages and squash all the bugs still left. If it would've been finished, it would've been in the shops. And because it isn't in the shops, it isn't finished.
Also it is their choice when they release it and when they feel they need more time to work on the game (thus creating a better endproduct) then everyone ought to respect their decision. End of story.

 

[Kadayi]

The reason the game has been delayed is because of the hack.

Obtaining the actual source code is not a minor issue, and the people who carried out the hack were not your standard script kiddies. If they can write a custom hack to exploit a previously unknown weakness in outlook, you think they aren't capable of perhaps writing some form of uplink into the source code. One that sends embedded keyloggers or trojans via custom map downloads when you play online for example or some such?

 

[kalayq]

Just like I wrote in my post the other day, Valve does not owe us anything! Valve giving the wrong release date is not them trying to deceive us. The game will be done when its done, so stop pretending that you have a personal relationship with them, and that through this personal relationship you have built a bridge of trust that should not be broken. We are just a large mass of consumers, they never once said "we promise to release the game on XX date" All they said was that they would aim for a certain date. If you feel so heartbroken by the change of release schedule, then choose not to buy the game and stop posting on the boards. The release date is their prerogative, and all we can do is wait and hope for a Q4 2003 release date. The source code leak will add some new dev time for the beefing up of the netcode and steam. Also the steam infrastructure is being worked on so that HL2 can be sent out to the many ppl that order it online. I bet the CS:CZ release is probably the last crucial test to see if steam can deliver a large game to a large user base. In this thread I have seen people mostly talking about rewriting the code as the sole reason for the delay. I believe the code is finished other then the changes I mentioned above. It is probably the game content that is still being developed and tweaked. There is no solid proof that they are actually finished with the game content, which is just as or even more important than the code. In 1998 the half-life engine was pretty regular, or even a little under par for when it was released. It was the game content that made the game the hit that it was. I don't care if they take longer to fix up the content, actually I want them to, so that HL2 will be comparable or better then its predecessor.

 

[Andrmgic]

there ought to be a new rule.. anyone who posts a thread speculating as to why HL 2 was delayed(outside of the speculation forum), or mentions the source or the beta should be banned.. These boards are going to hell in a handbasket with all of these threads.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

I don't like what VALVe did, either, but they owe us nothing. I'm sure thay have good reasons as to the "deception." Perhaps it's part of this whole PR thing...but I doubt that. I bet it's Steam, which many of you have come to that same conclusion. I'm still willing to bet it will be out next month or Dec. Let's just wait, and see, and quit whining.

-Ghost