The Looniest of the Loony Left

[Calanen]

I should say that I am of course completely against harassment of abortion clinics and their doctors and staff.

Thats just loony tune stuff.

 

[Korgoth]

Dude, seriously, you are just a little to happy with the "loony" comments. Once, twice, three times I can understand, but you say it in almost every post. Get over it.

 

[Calanen]

Dude, seriously, you are just a little to happy with the "loony" comments. Once, twice, three times I can understand, but you say it in almost every post. Get over it.

Now thats just a loony thing to say.

 

[GhostFox]

Dude, seriously, you are just a little to happy with the "loony" comments. Once, twice, three times I can understand, but you say it in almost every post. Get over it.

Maybe to him "looney" means "hot". I think he likes you

 

[jondy]

Heh, thread title - 'the hottest of the hot left'

 

[Korgoth]

/me feels the love

 

[kirovman]

If the USA does ever fall, you will have maybe Russia, but more likely China (now theres a country I will call evil happily) in charge. You'll be wishing the USA was still around, believe me when that happens.

How is China evil?

Sure under Chairman Mao, they invaded Tibet. Chairman Mao, I believe he was Evil, yes, in the same way Stalin was to some extent.
But, for the Chinese, he did end centuries of foreign oppression. He put them back on course towards a world power, where they were before for thousands of years.
How are they evil? Is it they do not represent western policy?

They do seem quite benevolent in history (more than the USA).
In history they are not so warring like Europe.
They prefer to settle things peacefully. I am not sure about Taiwan, I think Taiwan deserves soverienty, if their people want it. But China has not invaded (yet). The CCP are very smart, no doubt. They prefer to get Taiwan back peacefully.

The Chinese Communist Party has a grip on power, but they have been benefitting the country, focusing the effort, to a good end. But they are communist only in name, they are a highly business driven society.
Although I do not believe they will last forever, since people will begin to demand more, they will demand democracy. But this will be when the country has reached a state of development, I think.

And apparently the definition of democratic has something to do with "good civil rights and political freedoms", which I believe China has made remarkable progress on.

Oh and BTW, reading the above arguement you maybe suprised to know, I am a western "Gweilo", not chinese.

 

[Calanen]

Kirvomen - I am never gonna convince you, but if you think that the China is a nice friendly country, you are a bit likt the Greenie dudes who jump into the ring at bullfights and get mauled by the bulll 'We thought the bull would understand we were here to save him.....'

I worked in Hong Kong for a year - I got to know these people quite well. Dealt with serving and ex-communist party officials and got to hear what they think. After the terrorists in the Middle East, China is the second biggest threat to Western civilisation.

No i knew you were a white guy and not a chinese. The chinese who has escaped from China, would probably be agreeing with me. As for the chinese from china, im not even sure that the Great Firewall of China lets them see this board.

 

[Apos]

But, for the Chinese, he did end centuries of foreign oppression.

And begin a century of local oppression that was even worse. I mean, geez, Mao's Great Leap forwards and cultural revolution killing millions of people. Millions. (though such numbers don't seem to phase him: his response to a question about nuclear war killing millions of Chinese people was basically: "who cares, there are plenty more where that came from"

They prefer to settle things peacefully.

That's why they are rapidly expanding their army and threatening to invade a democracy?

And apparently the definition of democratic has something to do with "good civil rights and political freedoms", which I believe China has made remarkable progress on.

Yeah, now when they murder dissidents or send them to concentration camps, they think of a funny stories to tell about on the propaganda networks.

 

[kirovman]

Kirvomen - I am never gonna convince you, but if you think that the China is a nice friendly country, you are a bit likt the Greenie dudes who jump into the ring at bullfights and get mauled by the bulll 'We thought the bull would understand we were here to save him.....'

I worked in Hong Kong for a year - I got to know these people quite well. Dealt with serving and ex-communist party officials and got to hear what they think. After the terrorists in the Middle East, China is the second biggest threat to Western civilisation.

No i knew you were a white guy and not a chinese. The chinese who has escaped from China, would probably be agreeing with me. As for the chinese from china, im not even sure that the Great Firewall of China lets them see this board.

Hong Kong = China...HAH! It's still as British as cricket.

I spent several months in mainland China, not only in the cities of Beijing, Xi'an, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Kunming, Dali, Lijiang, Shenzhen and Hong Kong, but also in the countryside, in the moutains. I am going to Tibet this summer.

And I haven't been mauled to death so far, I have been treated very well, by everyone (better than my home country).

I have been with my chinese girlfriend for two years, and I have two years of education of chinese language and culture.

And communist party officials are everywhere. It's the biggest political party in the world you know. So don't be suprised if a communist party official is swimming in the same pool as you in the hotel. A lot of people hate the communist party it is true. So, doesn't make their nation evil.

And the great firewall, I saw this board last summer over there.

I have seen all the things that happen there. I worked in a pharmaceutical factory there.

Yes it is corrupted.

But you can't call the entire country evil. I don't think the CCP are evil either.

Why are they are threat exactly? Because they might become the new superpower?

And begin a century of local oppression that was even worse. I mean, geez, Mao's Great Leap forwards and cultural revolution killing millions of people. Millions. (though such numbers don't seem to phase him: his response to a question about nuclear war killing millions of Chinese people was basically: "who cares, there are plenty more where that came from"

That's why they are rapidly expanding their army and threatening to invade a democracy?

Yeah, now when they murder dissidents or send them to concentration camps, they think of a funny stories to tell about on the propaganda networks.

-Yes, Mao was evil. But when you become old, and in absolute power, you begin to worry about people toppling you from power.

I agree with you, he was evil.

But without him the Chinese wouldn't have got their break. It's not black and white you know.

-Rapidly expanding their army? They are increasing their spending. They are cutting down on troop numbers.
Taiwan was only a democracy since 1998 I think.

And they view Taiwan as part of their territory.

Look at USA invasion of bay of pigs. Cuba wasn't even USA territory before.

China threaten to invade, but I don't think they will do it.
Look at the whole story behind Taiwan.

BTW I disagree with China wanting to get Taiwan back. But I still think you should look at both sides of the arguement first.

-Concentration camps? You mean like Guantanemo bay?

China has remarkably improved their civil rights.

Look at their middle class, it is huge compared to a decade ago.

And what funny stories?

www.chinadaily.com.cn

yeah, it is propaganda, but compare it to the USA news networks.. It's no worse.

I hate it how democracy and freedom have become buzzwords these days.

I support democracy and freedom, but look at what happened to Russia when it became "democratic" and "free".

Truth is, USA just wants to find enemies in everything. They are frightened about loosing their status of sole superpower. So they need to lash out, saying "yeah, we're the best!" but more subtley.

If China is a threat to the west, why doesn't the west invade and establish order?

The casualities would be huge, but wouldn't world democracy be worth it? :dozey:
China will become a democracy when it is ready. You can't force democracy on nations. It needs a slow and gradual transformation. It took the UK at least 100 years to become a democracy, it didn't happen overnight. They let 5% of the population vote, then 10%....etc.
And why did we invest hugely in industry and manufacturing over there, if they are such a threat?

 

[Calanen]

BTW I disagree with China wanting to get Taiwan back. But I still think you should look at both sides of the arguement first.

-Concentration camps? You mean like Guantanemo bay?

No we mean like any body who dares disagrees with the Chinese government gets sent to a re'-education camp, some of which are farmed out to dangerous occupations (like making of chemicals and wading in acid) as slave labour. If that was the standard by which people were sent to Guantanomo Bay, it would be the size of Wembly Stadium just for its mess hall.

I had one ex-communist party official tell me this. If Taiwan does not join back with China, China will invade. And it does not care what the US or the West or anyone else thinks about it. He said 'You call our bluff and think we cowards! West will find out that this is big mistake!'

I believe him after talking to some more communist party guys when I was over there. I did not ever go to mainland China (I was invited to meet the Governor of some region both unprounouceable and forgettable - but declined.) but I was in charge of people in an office in Beijing - I know what goes on there.

You wanna back China thats cool. But i still say, that if anyone is evil its them. And not Mao. Them - ie current government. The friendly Chinese government before the Hong Kong elections so harassed any talkshow radio host who spoke ill of the Chinese government, that 4 of them in about 3 days spontaneously decided to resign. 1 of which ended up in Singapore and said that the Chinese security authorities said he could either resign or be killed. Last I heard he was trying to get asylum in Singapore. The rest of the talkshow journalists, wisely said 'No comment' when asked about the reasons for their resignations.

In addition, another newspaper was raided by ICAC - and journalists intimidated. I cannot remember the exact details, but I remember when reading it thinking 'what a sham'.

If the liberals spent as much time on China they would dig up far more dirt and proof of evil with them than they ever will on the USA. But China, gets a 'pass' from the left.....

 

[staticprimer]

That's why they are rapidly expanding their army and threatening to invade a democracy?

Invading another country to instill one's own political ideology by force... familiar right? That's the thing with war between ideologies, each side believes whole heartedly they are the right ones, the ones on the side of truth and justice, while the opposing ideology is the emodiement of evil. It has been true throughout history and certainly has not changed today. It used to be religion, now it is politics, what will come tomorrow?

 

[Apos]

kirovman, I lived in Hong Kong during the Tianamen Square massacre. I know China pretty well. While China and many Chinese try to put a good face on their country, the fact is that it is still a totalitarian society with a scary degree of nationalism and an almost racialist ideology of national destiny. As many problems as I have with our media, it still is NOTHING like China's state-monitored propaganada. They know how to put a nice border on their website, but that doesn't mean that reporters are really allowed to speak the truth if it gets in the way of the government's will.

 

[Calanen]

an almost racialist ideology of national destiny.

Btw - i nearly mentioned this but thought I should not - then thought why not. The prevailing view of Westerners in China, is that we are scum. Less intelligent, lazy, sub-humans, who maybe need to be taught a lesson by the Chinese military. So don't think that we are *ever* gonna be friends.

Russia and the USA - perhaps may set aside their differences enough to get along. USA and China, never will. EU might if its dumb enuff to sell weapons to China.

 

[Apos]

I don't think that's exactly their view: it's more that the Han Chinese are a superior people with a destiny that has long been denied and is now coming into its own.

By the way, the Chinese schools actually teach their kids that they won World War 2: that the U.S. only dropped the nukes to try and fool the world into thinking that they had won it: Japan was supposedly actually going to surrender to China before that.

 

[kirovman]

By the way, the Chinese schools actually teach their kids that they won World War 2: that the U.S. only dropped the nukes to try and fool the world into thinking that they had won it: Japan was supposedly actually going to surrender to China before that.

That's not what I heard from many mainland people I spoke to.
They seem to know the same history as me.
Although they think that Japan teaches history in a twisted and distorted way.
Japan neglects to mention the "Rape of Nanjing" and continues to glorify its military past. So it seems to be an asian thing to falsify your history, not an exclusively chinese thing, right?
This article is pretty typical of the things I read about:
http://www.imadr.org/attention/news2001.1.html

As for the Taiwan issue, they believe in history they have suffered great injustices at the hands of western powers, and they vow to never let it happen again.
I spoke to someone in China, they said their pride had been hurt too much over the past 200 years, and they could not allow foreign powers to do that to them again.

Even if a democratic government come to power, they will still want Taiwan back. A clear majority of mainland chinese agree with this (although you might argue it's brainwashing - but when I asked a chinese guy about this about this she said "Of course I'm not brainwashed! I have a mind of my own, and can read any English book I wish, you know! But I still think Taiwan should come back. Foreigners have no idea about China, why should they interfere in our internal affairs?").

Since this summer I have spoken to 2 Tiananmen square people.
They hate the CCP, and have gained an education overseas. One has since permanently gone back to China, and the other is going to, as soon as his phd is finished, this guy worked in the CCP government before, but quit. He said there was too much corruption amongst officials, and they took too many liberties in their job. This is the kind of thing the government is trying to stamp out now.

For as much they hate the CCP, they don't want to stay in the west forever.
The CCP will fall inevitably, but they have pulled a huge amount of people out of poverty. There's still a long way to go, but as long as the CCP keeps giving the people food on their tables, and provides them with consumerist goods, nothing will come of it.

Here's an opinion poll too:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4318551.stm

 

[Calanen]

By the way, the Chinese schools actually teach their kids that they won World War 2: that the U.S. only dropped the nukes to try and fool the world into thinking that they had won it: Japan was supposedly actually going to surrender to China before that.

I don't doubt it. I also spoke to a communist party official who said that there was no Tiannemen Square massacre - and that the news footage was faked in Hollywood studios by the US govt to embarass china......

 

[Calanen]

So using a bizare man hated by 95% of the country as indicative of liberals in general is somewhat crude.

Hey I called him the looniest of the loony left - I don't think I could have done more to say that he was not a typical liberal.

 

[Calanen]

They must be as what you quoted from his essay was exactly (word by word with the same omissions) what O'Reilly quoted. Kind of weird.

I quoted from his essay the relevant portion of the essay that I took objection too - where he calls office workers in the Twin Towers Little Eichmanns. Thats probably why O'Reilly quoted it as well. Because it was the bit that was most offensive. And relevant to the discussion. And there was no omission (to my knowledge) I cut and pasted the whole offensive paragraph.

Again, I know who O'Reilly is. But, I have no TV. And no FOX cable (which would not be much could without a TV). But if O'Reilly has said similar things to me or vice versa, that does not make the point any less or more valid. Except to the left, OOHHH OREILLY SAID IT = BS. Well Calanen said it, and doesn't care what O'Reilly said. So just respond to my comments, Ok?

I've never called you a loony No Limit....but you seem to have called me one. I called Ward Churchill a loony - cause he is.

 

[Apos]

A clear majority of mainland chinese agree with this

Sure, because they are not allowed by the government to hold any other view!

 

[Calanen]

A clear majority of mainland chinese agree with this

Man I'd agree to wear a pink frilly dress and dance the lambada once a week on cable TV if not doing so meant that I would spend 10 years helping make chemicals in a Chinese 're-education' gulag.....

 

[kirovman]

I don't doubt it. I also spoke to a communist party official who said that there was no Tiannemen Square massacre - and that the news footage was faked in Hollywood studios by the US govt to embarass china......

Yeah, communist party officials tend to be assholes, they are too busy living up their fortunes, being nationalist, while screw everyone poorer than themselves. You do meet the good one occasionally though.
Same like my phd friend, he left a lucrative job in the CCP to get an education overseas. This guy was a student in Tiananmen Square too.

A lot of chinese people are well aware Tiananmen square happened. They speak a bit critically of the protestors though, saying some criminals were hiding in the crowd, and took the opportunity to attack the soliders. The soldiers had to defend themselves so they opened fire.

I heard that from several independent people.

So there's several sides to the story, it's not all black and white, good and evil, right and wrong, and I quote (approximately - it's been a long time since I was told this) from an average chinese person I spoke to while working in China:

The average westerner mind will never understand the chinese mind, our culture is historically and still to this day very different.
We, chinese are very communal people, prefering to make decisions a group, rather than a leader to make the decision. (Peversely) this is more of a democracy than the west, and we have been more democratic than the west for a long time. Also the "democracy" of China up to 1949, led by the KMT party, was a joke, the leaders sought nothing to serve the people, and they continued to be pushovers to the foreign powers. Since 1949 we have stood up and proved we are a strong nation, under the leadership of the CCP. We are not like North Korea, which is going backwards.

We disapprove of individualism (anti-social). We have a completely different mind to western people, so how can they be so arrogant as to continue telling us what is best for us, immediately after 200 years of them screwing us over?

We can look after ourselves far better than foreign powers can, and our nation is one of the most rapidly developing nations in the world, and civil rights have improved very much since Tiananmen square (which I had previously quizzed them on).

Note it is possible, as a chinese citizen to shout "I hate the CCP so much - they are self serving bastards!" everyday in Tiananmen square without being arrested and locked up and sent for reeducation. You may get some funny looks though.

About the Taiwan thing
And they genuinely agree with it. It is not illegal to say otherwise. I spoke to some chinese people who are loudly against Taiwan reunification. They are not going to be sent to the gulag for holding another opinion.

I've seen it. None of my friends have been arrested for dissident activity, although they have had their fair share of arguements with policemen and CCP officials.
They usually get CCP officials to back down by saying they will get a lawyer involved in the dispute.
And chinese people aren't afraid of talking to foreigners about their true views - we're not going to grass them up to the CCP after all!

 

[Calanen]

A lot of chinese people are well aware Tiananmen square happened. They speak a bit critically of the protestors though, saying some criminals were hiding in the crowd, and took the opportunity to attack the soliders. The soldiers had to defend themselves so they opened fire.

I heard that from several independent people.

You don't return fire and send in armour to run over and massacre every1. I don;t buy it that criminals were in the crowd and decided to attack heavily armed soldiers. I just don't. And even if that were true - using a column of tanks to attack 1000 or so democracy protestors, is not an appropriate response to taking small arms fire....

 

[Calanen]

Note it is possible, as a chinese citizen to shout "I hate the CCP so much - they are self serving bastards!" everyday in Tiananmen square without being arrested and locked up and sent for reeducation. You may get some funny looks though.

That is SOOOO not true. One of the lawyers at my firm from Hong Kong, a UK born Chinese - had a folded up tourist map in his backpocket. He went to do the tourist thing in Tianemen square - and was wrestled to the ground by chinese police. The reason? He could speak Mandarin and could understand them - they thought that the folded up map in his pocket, was a protest banner he was going to unfurl in Tianneman square....and when was this? 2003.

So I do not believe that if they are this trigger happy, that you would last long singing pro-democracy songs - if you cop it for having a large tourist map that looks suspiciously like it could be a protest banner.

In addition, I spoke with an ex-labor union official from China. He said - that the Tianneman Square massacre happened, but it was the appropraite response and good riddance to the people that died. He said 'If you are chinese you love China, and if you hate China, you die. Very simple.'

 

[kirovman]

That is SOOOO not true. One of the lawyers at my firm from Hong Kong, a UK born Chinese - had a folded up tourist map in his backpocket. He went to do the tourist thing in Tianemen square - and was wrestled to the ground by chinese police. The reason? He could speak Mandarin and could understand them - they thought that the folded up map in his pocket, was a protest banner he was going to unfurl in Tianneman square....and when was this? 2003.

So I do not believe that if they are this trigger happy, that you would last long singing pro-democracy songs - if you cop it for having a large tourist map that looks suspiciously like it could be a protest banner.

In addition, I spoke with an ex-labor union official from China. He said - that the Tianneman Square massacre happened, but it was the appropraite response and good riddance to the people that died. He said 'If you are chinese you love China, and if you hate China, you die. Very simple.'

How very unfortunate for him. But I've seen some protesters there before, not so high profile, they were asked to move along.
Depends on the policeman I suppose, they get the adrenaline rush.

Remember the chinese woman who got beat up for no reason on the Canadian-American border? You get good cops, bad cops.

Although I guess it's not ok to demonstrate on today, of all days:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4324821.stm

And I'm not arguing all these things are good things.

I'm just trying to introduce you to another side of the story.
-->I'M TRYING TO SAY IT'S NOT ALL BLACK AND WHITE, GOOD AND EVIL, RIGHT AND WRONG.<----

eg USA is right, China is wrong. I'm sick of hearing that.

 

[Calanen]

Theres no 1st ammendment in australia (which is what I think the OP is referring to.) we have no constitutionally protected freedom of speech here.



Huh? This was in colorado... your taxes only affect Australian schools, and plus, its a university, which as you know are hardly getting any govt. attention over here!

I lived in the USA Bliink...don't now but I continue to pay Federal and State taxes in the United States.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

If you can slander all liberals by getting all huffy about a bunch of high-school kids in a park marching against war and getting out of hand, why is turnabout not fair play?

Because you clearly defend those highschoolers when you dissassociate who they are trying to represent, and excuse they're behavior as suggesting them all being anarchists.

Not all of them are anarchists, or highschoolers, who've resorted to this behavior.

Not once, have I heard of conservatives going out and making wrong against Liberal and "Anarchist" signs, simply because they disagreed. Thousands of videos recorded, show indeed the opposite of any charge the conservatives did it first, or, finished it.